Match Reaction vs Stoke City (away)

[Letters]

do you really think there's any chance of Wenger going if everyone appears happy, doesn't kick up a fuss and everything appears hunky-dory.

Do you think people kicking up a fuss in any way increases the chance of him going? You always say how he doesn't care what the fans think, are you now arguing that kicking up a fuss will make a difference? IMO the only thing that makes a difference is to just stop going. We are collectively the source of the money the club have, if we agree the board are only motivated by money then we have the power to remove that source but it can only work if it's a collective action, which it won't be.

As for enjoying watching football, I don't enjoy it because it's largely rubbish, yes we get the odd decent result

Like the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season then?

Always amusing to hear you talk about logic by the way.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I caught a glimpse of that story this morning and was just reading Pep's response.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...senal-10428609

You can see why people don't like him. Voyeur. Why is he watching other teams and not his own?

Ha I love the mature way the Mirror has dealt with the topic at the bottom with their "Who would win in a fight?" poll

But Wenger of all people has no right to claim other teams are taking it easily, I have West Ham fans in my office and they are constantly at pains to tell me how bad their injury crisis is.

Man United - A team where the manager said he wasn't prioritising Champions league qualification via the league route and rested Pogba and Fellaini against us

Southampton and Stoke - two mid table teams who have confirmed their premier league status and who are the archetypal example of teams that have "gone on their holidays".

Personally i'm glad to hear him talk like this, he's bricking it because he knows that he's under pressure and is trying to get his excuses in. Not that i'm comparing him to Ferguson ability wise, but this is exactly the kind of Ferguson deflection tactic.

The media might have an inquest into how teams with nothing to play for perform near the end of the season, though i doubt it.

[Özim]

Zim, this is where the argument falls flat.



You can't form an overall opinion of the fans stance on Wenger from AFTV people being happy with results.

That's debateable, after a defeat they are all over it criticising him, saying he needs to go etc, but after a win they talk about how great it was and don't generally still maintain that it's a good result but it's still time for him to leave.

[Özim]

Do you think people kicking up a fuss in any way increases the chance of him going? You always say how he doesn't care what the fans think, are you now arguing that kicking up a fuss will make a difference? IMO the only thing that makes a difference is to just stop going. We are collectively the source of the money the club have, if we agree the board are only motivated by money then we have the power to remove that source but it can only work if it's a collective action, which it won't be.


Like the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season then?

Always amusing to hear you talk about logic by the way.

It can't hurt, it certainly puts him under pressure, noone like to have their name banded about as the villain and people wanting them out, he might not care but you can't help but feel pressure and unhappy about that when it's directed at you, whatever you say in public. I agree stopping going it the best method, but let's be real, that's not going to happen, people just don't feel strongly enough to do that, and if you've paid your money I understand.

I enjoyed football more then yes and even in 92/93 it was unpredictable, we weren't the best side but we still upset the odds and won two trophies through sheer determination and yes I know you'll talk about the league, fact is though we played weakened sides for much of that season as we were progressing in the cups, we sacrificed the league for the cups hence the reason we had poor results.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It can't hurt, it certainly puts him under pressure, noone like to have their name banded about as the villain and people wanting them out, he might not care but you can't help but feel pressure and unhappy about that when it's directed at you, whatever you say in public. I agree stopping going it the best method, but let's be real, that's not going to happen, people just don't feel strongly enough to do that, and if you've paid your money I understand.

I enjoyed football more then yes and even in 92/93 it was unpredictable, we weren't the best side but we still upset the odds and won two trophies through sheer determination and yes I know you'll talk about the league, fact is though we played weakened sides for much of that season as we were progressing in the cups, we sacrificed the league for the cups hence the reason we had poor results.

It's swings and roundabouts

There were good games in some of the cup runs (Ipswich in the quarter final for instance)

But largely the football was turgid, not to say it's not now but my point is consistently that when you are seeing turgid football so often, it's a refreshing change and for you to insist they have to constantly say they want wenger out is like an insecure boyfriend who needs to be told by his girlfriend every hour that she still loves him otherwise his mind is wracked with doubt that her affections have gone elsewhere.

[Özim]

I honestly think if fans start whinging despite what the results and performances are, it's easier for the club and the media to pin them as being difficult, entitled and unreasonable.

But still comes back to the point, what are you personally doing to get Wenger out of the club?. You point the fingers at other people but what are you doing rather than sitting back and being critical.....which seems a rather comfortable position to take.

And again the arrogance to tell people what they should or shouldn't enjoy. People being happy with a one off result doesn't mean they are happy with the season and this preoccupation with yours that fans have to be miserable and testy at all times in case Wenger is able to use it to embolden himself is frankly bizarre.

What i'm hearing from you is your own sense of insecurity, that in fact you are deflecting your own sense of nervousness and unhappiness with us winning because it makes Wenger more likely to stay. If you were honest enough to admit that i would have more sympathy, I don't think there is a single person on this site who wasn't concerned that finishing top four would confirm Wenger staying and without any checks and balances on his excesses.....and that includes myself.

But if you are going to every single game because you are a dedicated fan, and you find the constant bad atmosphere and toxicity draining, why on earth would you seek to look for it. People don't revel in it, it's exhausting and depressing so like I say if they want to just have some enjoyment from a result and a performance that wasn't terrible.....I find it bizarre that you resent this so much.

Or actually I don't, I would expect someone who feels that way to be more prepared to take matters into their own hands but you won't will you. You will be content sitting back and blaming other people.

We've seen it before with other clubs and it's not how it's painted at all, the media love a bit of news your scenario would not happen IMO.

I don't put money into their coffers for a start, if everyone did that they'd soon change, however this isn't about me, clearly people will still turn up, so if they want to their entitled to, but at the same time if they want Wenger out (which you say they do) then what just sit there and accept whats going on...is that what you're saying? No wonder Wenger is comfortable, match fans from other clubs kick up a fuss when they're not happy with something but at Arsenal it's all swept under the carpet....and you wonder why we're in a position we are?

Yes I do think winning makes him more likely to stay, it like is has in previous years papers over the cracks, yes we have picked up a few wins, but lets logic at it objectively, what do these wins actually mean in the grand scheme of things, what relevance do they have?

So as a fan who gos to matches and wants change, it's better to sit there and do nothing because it becomes toxic if you do and you don't enjoy it? That must mean they are happy with what they are seeing in that case, or at the very least not that unhappy. I don't get how you can get enjoyment out of see this club in such a mess to be honest and watching a few matches paper over the cracks, the manager himself has been getting more smug with every game, is that a pleasurable scenario, he's even now said we don't need to change much.

My understanding of your argument is, let's get Wenger out but let's not say or do anything during match days and let's keep going to games, ok fine but that guarantees he'll stay and if that's the case then people clearly can't want him out enough if they know that.

I'm not blaming others btw, I'm just saying that if people do want him out (which you and many others say they do) then surely acting in the same way they have in the last 10+ years isn't going to achieve that. IMO the respect for Wenger is way over the top, at any other club he would have been houdned out by now (by the fans), but it seems at Arsenal it's not the done thing for some reason.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We've seen it before with other clubs and it's not how it's painted at all, the media love a bit of news your scenario would not happen IMO.

I don't put money into their coffers for a start, if everyone did that they'd soon change, however this isn't about me, clearly people will still turn up, so if they want to their entitled to, but at the same time if they want Wenger out (which you say they do) then what just sit there and accept whats going on...is that what you're saying? No wonder Wenger is comfortable, match fans from other clubs kick up a fuss when they're not happy with something but at Arsenal it's all swept under the carpet....and you wonder why we're in a position we are?

Yes I do think winning makes him more likely to stay, it like is has in previous years papers over the cracks, yes we have picked up a few wins, but lets logic at it objectively, what do these wins actually mean in the grand scheme of things, what relevance do they have?

So as a fan who gos to matches and wants change, it's better to sit there and do nothing because it becomes toxic if you do and you don't enjoy it? That must mean they are happy with what they are seeing in that case, or at the very least not that unhappy. I don't get how you can get enjoyment out of see this club in such a mess to be honest and watching a few matches paper over the cracks, the manager himself has been getting more smug with every game, is that a pleasurable scenario, he's even now said we don't need to change much.

My understanding of your argument is, let's get Wenger out but let's not say or do anything during match days and let's keep going to games, ok fine but that guarantees he'll stay and if that's the case then people clearly can't want him out enough if they know that.

I'm not blaming others btw, I'm just saying that if people do want him out (which you and many others say they do) then surely acting in the same way they have in the last 10+ years isn't going to achieve that. IMO the respect for Wenger is way over the top, at any other club he would have been houdned out by now (by the fans), but it seems at Arsenal it's not the done thing for some reason.

He was not hounded out because whether you want to accept it or not as frustrating as it is he kept us stable for a long period. Did he make a power grab and become totally unaccountable? Did he make it harder to recruit better players because of sticking with players that weren't good enough again yes for sure.

Top Four doesn't mean much in itself, but it means we are now in a position where our long term future is secure. The clubs that would have hounded out Wenger are the clubs that were already big enough to begin with, if you are telling me Liverpool or Tottenham would have dispensed with the services of a manager who was consistently getting them top four revenue with little transfer outlay you are out of your mind.....his wage seems ridiculous in that in terms of getting us big trophies he is nowhere near, but from the club's point of view he was worth every penny.

Now we are in a situation where the manager is massively past his sell by date has bought into his own hype in an unbelievable way and acts as if he has a tangible record to cling to when the last three seasons at least have seen increased transfer outlay but absolutely no progression on the field.

And we are in fact going backward because other clubs have the ruthless ambition our board has not shown when it comes to football

At the end of the day now is the right time to demand change, because he has been given three years to prove he's not past it and he's failed. It's ridiculous to say that Wenger would have been less smug if there had been more mardy fans after the Stoke game (there was a big aerial protest during the game which you have casually dismissed). You act as if he's Donald Trump who feverishly watches Arsenal Fan TV to take the pulse of Arsenal fans.

End of the day we know that it's where we finish in the league more than anything which will determine his fate, plus Wenger last year acknowledged that he was only ever a few bad results from a fan revolt (and this was during a long unbeaten spell). So again what i'm telling you is that you are talking nonsense, and you are projecting your own insecurity onto other people.

[Özim]

He was not hounded out because whether you want to accept it or not as frustrating as it is he kept us stable for a long period. Did he make a power grab and become totally unaccountable? Did he make it harder to recruit better players because of sticking with players that weren't good enough again yes for sure.

Top Four doesn't mean much in itself, but it means we are now in a position where our long term future is secure. The clubs that would have hounded out Wenger are the clubs that were already big enough to begin with, if you are telling me Liverpool or Tottenham would have dispensed with the services of a manager who was consistently getting them top four revenue with little transfer outlay you are out of your mind.....his wage seems ridiculous in that in terms of getting us big trophies he is nowhere near, but from the club's point of view he was worth every penny.

Now we are in a situation where the manager is massively past his sell by date has bought into his own hype in an unbelievable way and acts as if he has a tangible record to cling to when the last three seasons at least have seen increased transfer outlay but absolutely no progression on the field.

And we are in fact going backward because other clubs have the ruthless ambition our board has not shown when it comes to football

At the end of the day now is the right time to demand change, because he has been given three years to prove he's not past it and he's failed. It's ridiculous to say that Wenger would have been less smug if there had been more mardy fans after the Stoke game (there was a big aerial protest during the game which you have casually dismissed). You act as if he's Donald Trump who feverishly watches Arsenal Fan TV to take the pulse of Arsenal fans.

End of the day we know that it's where we finish in the league more than anything which will determine his fate, plus Wenger last year acknowledged that he was only ever a few bad results from a fan revolt (and this was during a long unbeaten spell). So again what i'm telling you is that you are talking nonsense, and you are projecting your own insecurity onto other people.

Stable non achievers yes, which is what the board want because they only care about money not football, no other big club would have put up with it, including Spurs and Liverpool, 4th place is a stepping stone nothing more and both those clubs would have looked to have progressed, what he's done is only valued at Arsenal because the club have set this as some kind of marker of success, it isn't.

Hes definitely mor smug since we've been winning and demonstrations have calmed down, some of his comments are patronising to the highest degree, so there's no doubt in my mind the wins, the lack of protest and people being happy makes life easier for him, I agree fans don't matter to hi but if you had 60000 fans on your back I'm not sure you'd be content.

Where we finish in the league won't determine whether he stays, IMO he's staying and people don't seem overly bothered by that, it looks like we've signed some freebie as well, if we have we wouldn't be doing so before we got another manager. What I find amazing however is that he's constantly sniping at fans and patronising them and they seem happy to accept this from a man who would be nothing without them.

The guy has been stringing it out waiting for results to improve so he can soften the blow, he's hoping for a cup win, I reckon he's deluded because Chelsea are a better team and will send us packing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Stable non achievers yes, which is what the board want because they only care about money not football, no other big club would have put up with it, including Spurs and Liverpool, 4th place is a stepping stone nothing more and both those clubs would have looked to have progressed, what he's done is only valued at Arsenal because the club have set this as some kind of marker of success, it isn't.

Hes definitely mor smug since we've been winning and demonstrations have calmed down, some of his comments are patronising to the highest degree, so there's no doubt in my mind the wins, the lack of protest and people being happy makes life easier for him, I agree fans don't matter to hi but if you had 60000 fans on your back I'm not sure you'd be content.

Where we finish in the league won't determine whether he stays, IMO he's staying and people don't seem overly bothered by that, it looks like we've signed some freebie as well, if we have we wouldn't be doing so before we got another manager. What I find amazing however is that he's constantly sniping at fans and patronising them and they seem happy to accept this from a man who would be nothing without them.

The guy has been stringing it out waiting for results to improve so he can soften the blow, he's hoping for a cup win, I reckon he's deluded because Chelsea are a better team and will send us packing.

Both Liverpool and Spurs have won less than us in the last ten years, and yet you are honestly saying they wouldn't have stuck with a manager who consistently got them top four?....especially if they were looking to finance a stadium move (like Liverpool tried to do and Spurs are doing).

So are Pochetino or Klopp going to get sacked if neither wins the premier league in the next few years?

Sorry mate, but you've proved to me that you are totally full of shit.

[Özim]

Both Liverpool and Spurs have won less than us in the last ten years, and yet you are honestly saying they wouldn't have stuck with a manager who consistently got them top four?....especially if they were looking to finance a stadium move (like Liverpool tried to do and Spurs are doing).

So are Pochetino or Klopp going to get sacked if neither wins the premier league in the next few years?

Sorry mate, but you've proved to me that you are totally full of shit.

Yes but it's not for want of trying, 4th place isn't what they are interested in, they want trophies and Wenger doesn't deliver that so would have been shown the door IMO. If they challenge for the title and don't win it they will get more leeway or if they pick up a trophy or two again it will buy them time, but ultimately there will be a time when if they don't win they'll be shown the door, both those clubs have ambitions to be successful at the end of the day.

Prove it? That's right you can't, fact is not every club is lacking ambition like Arsenal, Arsenal fans have been brought up thinking 4th place is the holy grail and thus they think all other clubs think the same way. I'll say it again no other big club would have stuck with Wenger if all he'd done is got a CL place every season without competing properly for big trophies for over a decade. Thing is this wouldn't happen at any other club, other managers would take a chance and gamble a bit more to win big trophies, which in the end could be successful or lead them to be sacked due to poor performances, Wenger is one of the few managers around who lacks any kind of ambition or need to win.