is there a scenario for wenger to stay?

[Power n Glory]

No, I've made my substantive response earlier in this and the Redknapp thread. And had a pretty decent discussion with Zim about it as well.

Your posting and the manner of it indicate you are getting a kick out of this.

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You've read my posts long enough to know I don't do the whole wumming thing. My username and style hasn't changed since the original GW and there has never been an occasion where I've been happy to see us lose or make such blunders. The constant fuck ups pisses me off. From the board room, to the field, management and now it's the same for us fans. It's a constant loop and as predictable as Wenger's team selection has become, it's the same for us fans. I'm just calling it out like I usually would.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You've read my posts long enough to know I don't do the whole wumming thing. My username and style hasn't changed since the original GW and there has never been an occasion where I've been happy to see us lose or make such blunders. The constant fuck ups pisses me off. From the board room, to the field, management and now it's the same for us fans. It's a constant loop and as predictable as Wenger's team selection has become, it's the same for us fans. I'm just calling it out like I usually would.

You may have missed the late edit, where I state that I've never called into question your support oft Arsenal. It probably means fuck all, but I wanted to say that.

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[Power n Glory]

That's fair play, GB. Thanks.

[IBK]

For me, as usual the real issues about the club and Wenger probably lie somewhere in the middle of the past 7 years. It shouldn't be about who is right and who is wrong, because I am certain that Zimm and PNG care as passionately about our club as the rest of us and take no pleasure from Wenger failing - its about whether a view is justified at a certain time.

I think the difference between then and now is that the majority of Gooners accepted that up until say 2009, the club had to be cautious while the stadium project was completed and Highbury Square sold. Most people accepted that a period of rebuilding was required, and that project youth had been decided upon, rightly or wrongly, as an alternative to the petro billionaires. It came fairly close to working, too. So in a sense the jury was rightly out - even though some Gooners have always felt that we should not have been so spending averse - even then.

For me, the next real crux point came when Fabregas and Narsi were sold - not just because the team since 2006 had been built around Fabregas - but because it showed that even in Fabregas' case growing up with the club and loyalty to Wenger were not sufficient to persuade him to stay. It became clear that our best players no longer believed in the Wenger project. With Nasri - selling him to a direct rival team suggested that the club had thrown in the towel.

So more justification in questioning Wenger, but I don't think those that didn't can be judged too harshly for being patient even then and seeing whether the manager could re-build a team based on proven track records rather than youthfrul punts. Like I say it was not unreasonable to point out that AW had consistently delivered CL football - and that this was more difficult than delivering the odd cup win.

The shambles that we are now in justifies those who were calling for regime change long ago - and the reason why even those who wondered whether getting rid of Wenger was best for the club are now in the same camp is that the sales of Song and RVP with no adequate replacements signed were near-suicidal, and teh manager has shown that project youth or no project youth - the failings that affected his earlier teams are not just still present - they have worsened! There are no longer any excuses left for the manager - but that does not mean that those who were prepared to give the manager the benefit of the doubt were unjustified in doing so at the time.

[Power n Glory]

I don't even feel there is need to even split hairs about who said what and which camp you reside in, even if there is such a thing. We've arrived at this point now and we need to keep our eyes open. That's what I'm getting at. As said, it's a shame that we're having the same sort debates about player loyalty and conduct since the whole Henry saga. It's disappointing to see us head down the same tunnel each year after we hit this point. That's why I say the focus needs to be directed elsewhere. The club has been rotting from the inside for years now and there is no point in directing that focus at the pieces that drop off. RVP, Song, Nasri, Cesc, Walcott....they can all see what's going on with the club and want out.

Been thinking about this for a while now but how are things going to change with the club when the manager is accountable to nobody? We all thought things would change once we've paid more of the debt down. No change years since. We all thought maybe Gazidis would help and challenge Wenger, put more pressure on him to buy and challenge for silverware like Dein did. No change. We were all optimistic when Stan took control of the club and thought he'd apply more pressure. No change. The players that have come and gone have tried to talk to Wenger and get him to be more ambitious. We have seen it the RVP talks, Cesc and it even goes as far back to Henry. Our players publicly putting pressure on our manager to sign new talent. Still no change.

The only thing left is for the fans to make some noise about the way we're being run. I put a lot of the blame on Wenger's shoulder because despite us repeating the same nonsense, we've seen new players come in, a new Chief Director has stepped in so Wenger isn't doing everything, a new owner, what more needs to change? There are no excuses left for the manager. If the Board depend on Wenger's vision and philosophy so much, I can only hope they'd be willing to listen to manager with superior knowledge and management skills over Wenger. We need a change of management. How that is to come about and when....no idea. But we're getting to the point where fan discontent will reach a boiling point. If the Spurs game goes belly up then it may be the final straw before everyone hits the roof and I can only see things getting ugly.

Like so many players that have boiled over in frustration and publicly voiced their concerns about the club, I feel we're going in that same direction as fans. It's not something I look forwards to because we're going to look so bad in the press if it gets to that point but it looks like it's inevitable. The only way Wenger is going is if he's hounded out.

[Letters]

@ the OP. I'm afraid not.

Some thoughts...I feel strongly that the difference between formerly AKB Gooners and those who have been calling for Wenger's head for some time does not represent any blindness or difference in insight between the 2. Generally speaking, up until relatively recently it has been a debate between those who feel that we should have won silverware/shown more ambition as a club and those who have been more prepared to take into account the disparity in spending power between us an the new rich clubs and the stadium project/rebuilding/development that the club was going through.

Both views were equally justifiable - and it is no surprise that many fans felt that Wenger had earnt the right to be given time, not just because of what he has given the club in terms of the success years and the stadium - but because he had consistently delivered CL football in some sense against the odds. This is not a 'trophy' in itself - but is certainly a reason to stand by a manager.

But it now feels as though something fundamental has changed. What we are seeing now does not feel like a loss of form, a slump like we have seen so many times over the years. It feels as though something rotten in Wenger's methods and approach to the game is being exposed. Its not a question of silverware. Its a question of seeing your team with a purpose; of seeing the basics of character and application. We are not seeing this - and fans are rightly questioning whether a team so lacking in these basic attributes can ever be successful.

Wenger's training methods; his misguided obsession with wage parity; his lax attitude towards discipline on the pitch (presumably at the training ground); his tactical blind spots and his refusal to set his teams up to play the opposition appear to have resulted now in a team pretty much in freefall (an exaggeration perhaps - but not interms of our relationship with the top 3 teams in the league). With the stellar talent now sold off, there is little to paper over the cracks - yet the talent we still have is woefully underperforming. This is down to the manager. Not the board. Not the opposition. And it is naive to think that a proud and stubborn man who has done it his way for 17 years will change. He won't. All leaders have their time, and Wenger's is clearly up.

But - and here's the frightening thing. The club structure that he has been so loyal in defending is a shambles. An American majority shareholder in open dispute with an Uzbek billionaire. A chief executive who appears unfit for purpose. Noone seemingly able to challenge or influence the manager. Do we really think that this is an organisation able to demonstrate the clarity of purpose and good judgment to appoint a more illustrious successor to Wenger? I am very afraid of what is going to happen in the power vaccuum of Wenger leaving. I can see us being a Liverpool or an Aston Villa. I'm afraid that the bad times may only just be beginning.

Spot on.

[Letters]

PnG, forget all the bollocks about who was right, who was wrong, when, and why.

It is very difficult, sometimes in the heat of a result, to tell who is on the wind-up and who isn't. Especially when certain posters will only come on to post when we lose. If we get a good result, the plaudits, or even shared happiness in 3 points, is often distinctly lacking from some posters, who are more than happy to laugh (YES, even laugh) and rub it in when we lose.

That is why some people get called out on it.

Nothing to do with the AKB brigade whatsoever.

All to do with supporting your club first and foremost, come what may.

Those who have been doom-mongering for years now being smug about us being in serious decline now is like two brothers one of whom thinks their mum is just under the weather, the other thinking she has terminal cancer, them finding out the latter was right and him laughing in the former's face and saying "Ha! See? Told ya!"

A little over-dramatic, perhaps, but FFS, we're all supposed to be Arsenal fans here. We're all supposed to want what's best for the club.

Those who thought things were going wrong from 2006 onwards and are now smug are giving themselves a bit too much credit.
When Utd struggled for a few seasons a load of spoilt Utd fans were calling for Fergie's head, they look pretty stupid now. The fact is the last 7 years have not been an abject failure, they've not been a straight decline. There have been better seasons and worse seasons. Those moaning 5 years ago were premature, it's only the last couple of years where the rot has started to seriously set in.

I'm less bothered that I was about Wenger leaving, there's less to lose and it's increasingly looking like it's the only way for the club to move forward but it's not a magic bullet and it will IMO cause more short term pain even if longer term it gets us where we want to be.

[Power n Glory]

You've got some nerve talking about smugness and talking about us all being Arsenal fans with the way you've carried on over the years. You have a band of followers that regularly take the piss and act smug whenever Zimm posts and have shouted down a load of valid opinions. The very phrase 'doom mongering' pisses me off and has been used countless times to draw a divide on here.

I'm not being smug and you among others have got to be one of the worst culprits when it comes to the 'I told you so' rubbish after a good run of results. Don't try it.

[Letters]

I'm happy when Arsenal are doing well. Some people on here seem happy when we're not. Odd, frankly.

[Power n Glory]

There you go with that simplistic, devisive and insulting 'lesser fan' rhetoric and then have the nerve to talk about us all being Arsenal fans in your previous post. Hypocrit.