I agree with this actually. One of Wenger's failings back in the day was resting on his laurels when he had a title winning side. Fergie never does that, he always looks to improve and push on. We should have won three in a row by winning it in 2003, we were 5 points clear with 9 games left that year and then went on a poor run which messed it up.Originally Posted by Joker
I just don't see what you're getting at. Unless you're trying to belittle Wenger's achievements what point are you making?
Seems you missed reply 257.
Definitely should have been 3 back to back titles from 01-04, we were head and shoulders above Utd at that time.
They always had big players that came to the fore for the big 6 point head to head games, like Webb.
All I'm saying is that the number of managers that have met your criteria anywhere are miniscule. Clubs are organic and teams evolve and Wenger certainly took what existed before he joined onto a level not seen at Arsenal since the 30s.
No, I saw it. But the 2004 team was Wenger's pretty much in its entirety.
No manager would have kicked out a player like Bergkamp so the team was entirely 'his' just to prove a point.
As GB says all teams evolve and managers are rarely at a club long enough that the teams are entirely theirs. That doesn't diminish their achievements.
If you really want to knock Wenger's achievements (and I'm not sure why any Arsenal fan would want to) then the failure to retain a title is far more damning than the fact that the Invincibles had one (significant) pre-Wenger player in.
I agree. And I'm in no way disputing Wenger's achievement. But remember that very view managers come remotely close to staying at a big club for so long. Only he and SAF from recent memory and we all know how that story goes.
And I especially like your point about clubs evolving. Even more fuel for us who think Wenger's scope of the game has been blurred for a few season now. How else could he have been able to take what he inherited, and build on it to much success, but then unable to build on what he then accomplished?
Again, I'm not trying to diminish his achievement. I'm just pointing to a reason (which I thought was obvious, and was I wrong) why I think he won't win another title. Since when does this fall into belittling/underming his achievements category?
Fair enough, although I don't think that a correct reason. IMO we didn't with titles back in the day because of the players Wenger inherited, he inherited a decent side but not one who looked like seriously challenging for the title and made them champions. He then built a side which was one of the best footballing sides I've ever seen and only had one significant pre-Wenger player in it. Obviously Bergkamp was very significant but he's hardly going to get rid of someone like that to prove a point. It was Wenger's side.
We won't win another title under Wenger because Wenger's successes were built on the following things:
a) Training methods and fitness regimes - Wenger took over in an era when clubs still had drinking schools, Wenger took us to a new level of fitness and sobriety which meant we were fitter than most clubs. Other clubs have caught up.
b) He had a knowledge of the European game which most managers didn't. Not many people had heard of Vieira, for exampl. Again, other clubs have caught on and all have worldwide scouting networks now which means we don't have that edge.
And this was all before the billionaire owner. We could pick up top players for a few million and didn't have to pay ridiculous wages. You didn't have billionaire-fueled clubs doubling any price we might offer and offering players ridiculous wages.
People lament how Wenger has changed. I lament that he HASN'T changed while all around him has. He's not suddenly this clueless idiot, we've finished top 4 every year and you don't do that without having some nous. But the footballing world has moved on. Clubs have caught up and in some cases over-taken. It's harder to win the title than it used to be, ManYoo were only close to City last year because Fergie is a genius. By rights no-one should be able to compete with a team who can throw money around like City can. I don't think we'll win the title under Wenger again but I find it hard to believe we'd win it under anyone else either with clubs like City around. My real problem with Wenger now is that we should be much closer. We might not have the resources to win the title but we shouldn't be this far away either and that (along with the lack of trophies for so long when we've had several chances to land one in that time) is where he's failed.
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