Chelsea v Arsenal 13:30 Sunday 20th January SS1

[Özim]

no but i think it's reflective of where the league standard is in terms of our 'best' teams against the big boys from overseas. city found themselves where they are because of non qualification the season before and were found extremely wanting when faced with teams who finished in similar positions in other countries.

it's the reason why no one believes utd will get close the final and of course why we will most likely go out in this round. in a complete knock out competition i'd agree that you'd struggle to get a clear picture of the dis/parity between countries but the extend nature of this competition does tell you something.

I agree the league isn't as strong as it once was, however City won the league and we came 4th (and are above us again this year) and yet somehow according the CL seedings were considered better, that's a strange system...they underperformed in the CL last year for sure, but they still have shown themselves superior to us.

[Özim]

And there are other factors that work the other way round - in domestic leagues there are a greater concentration of weaker teams for instance. In the Champions League you face greater threats to your chances of winning it a lot sooner. In a league you have a greater chance of being able to recover from defeats, therefore should domestic leagues be given such a strong weighting or should it just be on the European competitions where the quality is further spread?

Yes there are but there's less anxiety about the league games as you have time to recover from blips and because you play week in week out it's easier to erase a poor performance.

The league should get the greater weight IMO and when you combine this with the CL performance you should get a fairly accurate seeding system (remember the league winners from the best countries are already top seeded).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yes there are but there's less anxiety about the league games as you have time to recover from blips and because you play week in week out it's easier to erase a poor performance.

The league should get the greater weight IMO and when you combine this with the CL performance you should get a fairly accurate seeding system (remember the league winners from the best countries are already top seeded).

Well if there is less anxiety in the league, does that not mean it's a safer, calmer environment for players to thrive in? If so then I would give more weighting to the competition that adds that pressure on to you with a greater concentration.

If the league winners from the top countries are already top seeded on the whole then why bother fiddling with the system at all? Because Citeh got a bit unlucky?

[Özim]

Well if there is less anxiety in the league, does that not mean it's a safer, calmer environment for players to thrive in? If so then I would give more weighting to the competition that adds that pressure on to you with a greater concentration.

If the league winners from the top countries are already top seeded on the whole then why bother fiddling with the system at all? Because Citeh got a bit unlucky?

Since it's there's less anxiety teams can hit form over an extended period and show their quality which is sometimes hard to do in the CL.

They're not, City were in the 2nd/3rd pot which considering they come from one of the best leagues and are better than some teams in the top pot isn't really fair.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Since it's there's less anxiety teams can hit form over an extended period and show their quality which is sometimes hard to do in the CL.

They're not, City were in the 2nd/3rd pot which considering they come from one of the best leagues and are better than some teams in the top pot isn't really fair.

You just said

(remember the league winners from the best countries are already top seeded).

However though I will ignore that given Dortmund and Juventus won their leagues and they are not top seeds, although I am sure they soon will be. Funny how getting through their groups didn't provide any problems though, clearly Borussia Dortmund learnt.

This seems rather backwards. You'd give more weighting to the competition that gives the best teams the chance to prove they're the best teams, when they play against a greater deal of opponents that are much weaker. If we do finish fourth or even third would you really trust that league as a reliable index of quality within it?

I could back a coeffient across the Europa League and Champions League over the previous season with some reservations but to give domestic leagues the greater weighting I think isn't a very good idea at all.

[Cripps_orig]

Don't think there is much wrong with the seeding system. To be seeded in Europe, you have to be good in Europe. City are a bit shit.

[Özim]

You just said However though I will ignore that given Dortmund and Juventus won their leagues and they are not top seeds, although I am sure they soon will be. Funny how getting through their groups didn't provide any problems though, clearly Borussia Dortmund learnt.

This seems rather backwards. You'd give more weighting to the competition that gives the best teams the chance to prove they're the best teams, when they play against a greater deal of opponents that are much weaker. If we do finish fourth or even third would you really trust that league as a reliable index of quality within it?

I could back a coeffient across the Europa League and Champions League over the previous season with some reservations but to give domestic leagues the greater weighting I think isn't a very good idea at all.

I think you might have misunderstood, let me break it down

- Countries are rated according to performance in Europe of all their clubs the previous season
- The top 4 countries have their league winners automatically placed in the pot of top seeds (along with the CL winner if this is a different team)
- The rest of the seeding is worked out according to performance in the league (you'll get more points if you're from a top performing league) and CL performance providing you got past the group stages.


When I said league winners are top seeded I meant in my suggested system (but the only ones that would automatically be in the top pot would be the 4 league winners of the 4 best performing countries)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ok then, Borussia Dortmund could outperform Bayern Munich in the Champions League this season, like they've outperformed them in the league for the previous two seasons but still be rated lower than them (like they will anyway) because they didn't win the Bundesliga for a third season in a row.

How can there be a 'top four' countries when it could change so dramatically over the course of one month in a season? Premier League could be No.3 now but No.5 in a month; does that mean the French league is stronger? Man City could end up with exactly the same group they got this season!

[Özim]

Ok then, Borussia Dortmund could outperform Bayern Munich in the Champions League this season, like they've outperformed them in the league for the previous two seasons but still be rated lower than them (like they will anyway) because they didn't win the Bundesliga for a third season in a row.

How can there be a 'top four' countries when it could change so dramatically over the course of one month in a season? Premier League could be No.3 now but No.5 in a month; does that mean the French league is stronger? Man City could end up with exactly the same group they got this season!

If Bayern win the league then yes they will be rated about Dortmund and rightly so.

Top 4 countries are based on a countries previous seasons performance so it doesn't change, if you're clubs do well in Europe (including Europa league), you'll be placed higher than if your countries clubs do poorly.

Seedings are done before the start of the competition and don't change throughout.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Why rightly so? Borussia Dortmund would've qualified for the Champions League by being league champions and outperformed Bayern Munich in that competition on the back of it. It doesn't seem fair that's forgotten about, especially when you've always maintained the Champions League should be mainly for the league winners.

I meant it changing with regards to 'as it stands' - in the current system there is about a point seperating third, fourth and fifth. I don't know how you'll work out the point system either to be honest, it's going to be extremely complicated. Like I already said, you can't use UEFA's current ranking on that, for obvious reasons.