When do we start to believe ?

[Power n Glory]

OK. That is a much better argument for why we could do it this year. You're right, we weren't a million miles away from City or Chelsea last year so we can't we finish above them this?

My real disagreement with you on this thread is you citing change at Utd, City and Chelsea as the reason we could win it this year. That change doesn't seem to have affected 2 of the clubs negatively, I agree that points at this stage is an imperfect way of assessing things but there are enough games to give us some indication of where the teams stand and so far Chelsea and City, despite some poor results, are doing OK. I'm not clear why you're contrasting City and Chelsea's 'patchy' form with our 'consistency' when we're only 3 and 2 points above them respectively. There's clearly not much between the clubs so far.

What have been the barriers to us winning the league over the last few years?

1) Fergie - well, he's gone and that gives us more of a chance than we had when he was around. Utd are looking far poorer without him.

2) Years of underinvestment - year on year we've sold our best players without replacing them. Last summer was the first year we've not had anyone good enough to pique any of the top clubs' interest so we have, for once, kept the core of our squad together. It wasn't a squad strong enough to challenge last year, we looked pretty poor at times, but Flamini was a good signing and Ozil an outstanding one. That trend has been halted, possibly even reversed, but it's debatable whether 1 big signing is enough. We still look pretty lightweight up front.

3) The billionaire-fueled clubs. City and Chelsea can blunder their way to the top with huge, expensively assembled squads. It makes them very haard to compete with. This is the barrier that I still see to us winning the title. They've both changed managers but as discussed that doesn't seem to have negatively affected them so far. It's true we weren't a million miles away last year from either so maybe we could just pip them both this year but City looked frightening last weekend. Chelsea haven't looked that great but they are winning games, they're still up there and they have a manager who while perhaps not quite in Fergie's league knows how to win the title.

IMO the title is a step too far this year, mostly because of number 3. I agree it won't be easier next year but if we invest in a top striker then we could push much harder. IMO that's our main weakness. Despite last weekend our defence is generally looking better this year, the midfield looks very good but we lack an Aguero/RvP or Suarez. Someone at the level who you can see leading the line in a title winning side. Get one and we'd be very strong contenders in any season.

If this season is a step too far because of reason 3 - the billionaire fuel clubs, then you might as well argue that we don't stand a chance in any season. We could strengthen next season but if our rivals do the same then arguments about strength and depth will crop up again because we can't compete with their finances. If we crumble this season, see our rivals overtake us, lift the title and then strengthen, that will be a massive psychological hurdle to jump over next season. Who knows if we'll keep all of our players together next season or even if Wenger will be here as coach, I've said that once before. We should be looking at this as a massive opportunity and I hope we don't make the same mistake as 2008 where we didn't buy a striker.

As said, City and Chelsea weren't great last season and if it looks like more of the same then that's great for us. If they end the season on 75-78 points again, great! You don't think much has changed with them, that's fine with me if they continue on last seasons form. At the moment, I don't think they're firing on all cylinders and it will take time for them to adjust which is why I say our chance is now. We have to buy in January and take advantage.