Has Wenger conceded the league - again?

[IBK]

Of course. Where's the achievement in throwing unlimited funds at something? Even finishing 2nd this year will be an incredible achievement considering the opposition.

Well in that case are we at a different place than in the past where the league was the league and didn't need any more explaining than that? Or have teams always demanded that we consider financial circumstances as well as trophies?

[GP]

It it isn't new to this season, if that's what you mean.

There has always been a financial disparity, but never to the extent we have now. Man City have virtually 3 different 1st XI's that could compete at a high level.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

From Football 365. Thoughts?

For me this is the paradox. Wenger can forever point to the fact that he is competing against overwhelming odds with the billionaires. The problem is that we naturally back him for this and look further than simply silverware.

I don't think it can be denied how important the top teams deem being in the Champions League (and for the lower down teams exchange CL for PL and survival for a trophy). That post on 365 might want to believe all trophies are above what is the bare minimum target but look at Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton. They all see it as what will be a new and exciting beginning for their clubs but using Liverpool as an example, you can't say they thought the same about winning the League Cup two years ago.

Where I think Wenger veered too far towards is seeing it as the only success available. Trophies are what I ultimately want us to win but as long as I can sense progression then I can't complain a huge amount if that tangible success doesn't come.

I am glad we won the FA Cup in 2005 for instance but I can't say I take a huge amount of pride in the way we won it.

[selassie]

Undeniably. But is AW right to insist that such achievements validly counter straight statistical success? For me, this is the dichotomy with AW. Is football now at the stage that (because of financial doping) people should consider the context in which trophies are won?

No, though I understand and accept that it isn't just a black and white scenario, I.E. We shouldn't judge AW a success or a failure based on a results only scenario.

In terms of the actual health of the football club, from both a financial and sporting point of view we are in very good shape and I am thankful for AW & the board for that. I think the pain we have gone through regarding our player recruitment policy post stadium move is starting to wear off. I believe the club is now in a financial position to compete for top quality players. I do actually feel that AW has built a pretty decent squad, which is a mix of purchases and players groomed through our youth system. Our squad is arguably the 3rd best in PL behind City and Chelsea, though there is certainly room for improvement within the squad.

Given our current financial standing, what we are paying AW and the talent in our current squad, our expectations should be that the club should compete and I mean strongly compete for every single competition we enter.

We are by no means disadvantaged and whilst I accept that Man City and Chelsea to a lesser degree have superior squads and bigger budgets they are not invincible.

Of course finishing 2nd or 3rd behind those clubs would constitute a good season, but our progress in the League should be judged on a points/results basis. There could be many factors to finishing 2nd or 3rd and it really depends on how the season pans out to whether it's seen as a success or disappointment.

[IBK]

No, though I understand and accept that it isn't just a black and white scenario, I.E. We shouldn't judge AW a success or a failure based on a results only scenario.

In terms of the actual health of the football club, from both a financial and sporting point of view we are in very good shape and I am thankful for AW & the board for that. I think the pain we have gone through regarding our player recruitment policy post stadium move is starting to wear off. I believe the club is now in a financial position to compete for top quality players. I do actually feel that AW has built a pretty decent squad, which is a mix of purchases and players groomed through our youth system. Our squad is arguably the 3rd best in PL behind City and Chelsea, though there is certainly room for improvement within the squad.

Given our current financial standing, what we are paying AW and the talent in our current squad, our expectations should be that the club should compete and I mean strongly compete for every single competition we enter.

We are by no means disadvantaged and whilst I accept that Man City and Chelsea to a lesser degree have superior squads and bigger budgets they are not invincible.

Of course finishing 2nd or 3rd behind those clubs would constitute a good season, but our progress in the League should be judged on a points/results basis. There could be many factors to finishing 2nd or 3rd and it really depends on how the season pans out to whether it's seen as a success or disappointment.

Perhaps. And I agree that Wenger's done enough outside winning trophies to avoid being termed as a failure. But objectively can the last 8/9 years be judged a success?

[Letters]

I am glad we won the FA Cup in 2005 for instance but I can't say I take a huge amount of pride in the way we won it.

Was bloody funny though

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That it was.

Can't see me ever buying the DVD though.

[Marc Overmars]

Still not quite sure how we got away with that one, couldn't believe how shit we were.

[I am invisible]

Perhaps. And I agree that Wenger's done enough outside winning trophies to avoid being termed as a failure. But objectively can the last 8/9 years be judged a success?

To be honest, it's probably neither - we've hit our minimum targets, but never really deviated too far in either direction from 'acceptable'. From speaking with other Arsenal fans on other forums, I found most of the frustration seemed to stem from general boredom at the predictable, routine pattern that our seasons had started to follow: no glory to revel in, but nothing to get that angry about either; nothing much to really start believing in Wenger and his vision again, but nothing so bad as to warrant him losing his job either. And after a while you stopped even imagining what the next season might be like with a few of the right signings. It all just became very 'meh', and I think a lot of things got blown up out of all proportion because of it (both in terms of criticism and praise)...

[Marc Overmars]

To be honest, it's probably neither - we've hit our minimum targets, but never really deviated too far in either direction from 'acceptable'. From speaking with other Arsenal fans on other forums, I found most of the frustration seemed to stem from general boredom at the predictable, routine pattern that our seasons had started to follow: no glory to revel in, but nothing to get that angry about either; nothing much to really start believing in Wenger and his vision again, but nothing so bad as to warrant him losing his job either. And after a while you stopped even imagining what the next season might be like with a few of the right signings. It all just became very 'meh', and I think a lot of things got blown up out of all proportion because of it (both in terms of criticism and praise)...

Agree with that. I think regardless of what your expectations are, witnessing the same thing over and over again is bound to grate after a while. That goes for supporters of all clubs.