Are the doubters wrong about Wenger?

[Power n Glory]

Other than perhaps OTT emotional reactions on match/post match threads, I have simply not seen any prevelance on here of the anti Wenger 'bile' that some posters take exception to. I also feel that some posters' reactions to Zimm are well OTT. He is guilty of nothing more than pessimism as to Wenger's methods, and has never made an 'anti Wenger' statement without backing it up with an explanation for his views. I said on another thread that there seems to be a 'default' position amongst some Gooners of not seeing the wood for the trees when it comes to Wenger. This season it has been most marked in the debate about whether there has been any real improvement in this Arsenal side - and frankly - in relation to our results and performances - the sceptics have been proved right.


Personally, I have always tried to look at all angles of our team's performance - and while I have never to my knowledge indulged in infantile over-exaggeration, lately I have taken the view that far from being unjustly criticised, Wenger has had an easy ride from Gooners. He managed our transition to the Emirates, and in the first half of his reign he brought us success. But I think that for him personally, he has taken as much from Arsenal as he has given the club - perhaps even gaining more personal advantage than the advantages that he has given Arsenal and its fans.

The bottom line is that no matter how we have become used to dressing it up, the hallmark of a top manager is not balancing the books; making profits from player sales, or ensuring a sound financial footing. That is the job of a successful managing director, and should not really come into the reckoning for a football coach. One of Wenger's biggest deceptions has been to claim credit for a side of the club that he simply should not be involved in.

Anyways - back to the main issue of the thread. The reason I posted was that I have become convinced that Wenger's tactical approach, and the way that he has set up his teams has become outdated - and his footballing weaknesses are becoming increasingly easy for a new breed of bold young tactically astute managers to exploit. But having seen the extraordinary injury stats that I have posted, not to mention the huge and obvious difference that our key returning players have made I wonder whether Wenger is quite as far behind his rivals in this respect as it might have seemed. Put another way - with our 3 best players - Ramsey; Walcott and Ozil fit for even 90% of the season, would Wenger's methods have won us the league? It is fair to point out that this is what Chelsea; Liverpool, and even Everton have enjoyed - while Citeh, even though they have had key players injured for parts of the season, are (or should be) basically immune from the effect of injuries. Citeh away aside (and even then, we scored 3 goals against them), none of our shocking results this season have been with even 2 of our 3 best players on the pitch?

@ PNG - of course there are elements of footballing approach and injuries/training to blame for our predicament. But I just wonder whether the real criticism of Wenger should be the training/fitness methods that consistently rob him of the players essential to make his style of play work rather than his 'tactical' naivity. At the end of the day the distinction may be irrelevant, because our results over the season speak for themselves. But for debating purposes it is interesting to ask whether the manager's way of playing football is flawed in itself, or flawed because it only works with a level of player that is beyond his ability to keep fit for a season?

It’s worth checking out Le Grove. Over the course of the season, they’ve talked about our injury record, spoken to experts at the club, outside the club and it’s really got me thinking. It’s probably why I’m even more pessimistic. I just can’t see where we’ll improve if we don’t change the way we train and prepare for games.

I think Wenger is tactically outdated. Having read about the intense uninterrupted 5 aside sessions, his theory on players learning on the field and not giving instructions….it just doesn’t fill me with confidence. When the players look flat and lack that spark, I don’t believe that’s down to a lack of effort. I think they’re trying to go back to the basics even though confidence is low. If we had team full of great world class players, we’d probably fair better but we don’t and as Blink says, we need to box smarter to compensate.

When you take that into consideration along with our poor injury record, I think it’s too much of a mountain to climb. It’s made me lose hope completely. I’ve heard the arguments about Liverpool and having Suarez. It’s been a perfect storm for them, you’re right and I knew City and Chelsea wouldn’t walk away with the season. We really should have taken advantage of that this year. Suarez has been a beast for Liverpool. ‘Only if we had Suarez’, people say. Would we be able to maintain such a player with our fitness record? That should be the question. We’ve had RVP, Ade, Eduardo, Hleb, Rosicky, Walcott, Nasri….bags of talent in our squad. Goals galore but we’ve never been able to keep the energy levels up for the season or keep everyone fit. In the 2008, the team were left huffing and puffing in the same way this team seem gassed right now. It’s a combination of problems and I can’t see anything changing anytime soon. In his most recent interview he seemed reluctant to blame the staff or his methods but blamed the supplements players were using. Hair supplements. It’s the sort of stubborn soundbite that we’ve grown used to.

[IBK]

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey, i got called a wenger apologist when i have questioned (and still do) how much money this club actually has to spend, when you factor in how obscene transfer wages and player wages are in the modern game?.
What does that even have to do with AW's competence as manager would be my response?

I'm glad you have raised this point, because recent data has cast doubt on your financial observations about the club.

Only a fool would argue that Citeh and the Chavs do not have an overwhelming, and unfair advantage over everyone else when it comes to buying success. For all their debt - Manure have pretty much remained competitive with these 2 in terms of how much they can pay in transfer fees. But below that, I simply cannot accept that we have been operating at a significant financial disadvantage. This week's publication of the ESPN The Magazine and Sportingintelligence figures show us 11th in the list of highest salary payers in the world (figures given are average annual wage figures).

1 (1) Manchester City, EPL 8,109,912
2 (5) New York Yankees, MLB 8,031,948
3 (2) Los Angeles Dodgers, MLB 7,778,336
4 (3) Real Madrid, La Liga 7,586,438
5 (4) Barcelona, La Liga 7,446,562
6 (16) Brooklyn Nets, NBA 6,814,067
7 (9) Bayern Munich, Bundesliga 6,689,311
8 (12) Manchester United, EPL 6,566,775
9 (19) Chicago Bulls, NBA 6,055,463
10 (8) Chelsea, EPL 6,053,686
11 (15) Arsenal, EPL 5,928,172
12 (20) NY Knicks, NBA 5,867,808
13 (14) Detroit Tigers, MLB 5,824,233
14 (11) Philadelphia Phillies, MLB 5,791,002
15 (22) Boston Red Sox, MLB 5,717,792
16 (17) Miami Heat, NBA 5,568,543
17 (23) San Francisco Giants, MLB 5,490,339
18 (35) Juventus, Serie A 5,336,821
19 (7) LA Lakers, NBA 5,182,926
20 (21) Liverpool, EPL 5,171,351

As can be seen, we are only just behind Chelsea, and 800K ahead of Liverpool. Now I know that this ignores transfer spending - and that is where we have a more legitimate claim to have been relative paupers these past few years - but Rogers has spent 100M on transfers since he has been at Liverpool - and while I haven't checked, I would imagine that we have spent at least this much (for these purposes, net spend is irrelevant).

Bottom line is that IMHO our league position for the past decade has pretty much equated to our relative spend. For me, this simply does not justify the Wenger 'apologists' as you claim to have been labelled. Wenger has done no better than he could have been expected to given our club's spend. Clubs like Liverpool and Everton have undoubtedly exceeded expectations.

As for 'shades of grey' - yes I too find it a bit frustrating not so much that many posters on here see things in black and white ('extreme' positions make for lively debate) - but that relatively few people (not a reference to you as such), will never amend their views even when presented with really good arguments from others.

[IBK]

It’s worth checking out Le Grove. Over the course of the season, they’ve talked about our injury record, spoken to experts at the club, outside the club and it’s really got me thinking. It’s probably why I’m even more pessimistic. I just can’t see where we’ll improve if we don’t change the way we train and prepare for games.

I think Wenger is tactically outdated. Having read about the intense uninterrupted 5 aside sessions, his theory on players learning on the field and not giving instructions….it just doesn’t fill me with confidence. When the players look flat and lack that spark, I don’t believe that’s down to a lack of effort. I think they’re trying to go back to the basics even though confidence is low. If we had team full of great world class players, we’d probably fair better but we don’t and as Blink says, we need to box smarter to compensate.

When you take that into consideration along with our poor injury record, I think it’s too much of a mountain to climb. It’s made me lose hope completely. I’ve heard the arguments about Liverpool and having Suarez. It’s been a perfect storm for them, you’re right and I knew City and Chelsea wouldn’t walk away with the season. We really should have taken advantage of that this year. Suarez has been a beast for Liverpool. ‘Only if we had Suarez’, people say. Would we be able to maintain such a player with our fitness record? That should be the question. We’ve had RVP, Ade, Eduardo, Hleb, Rosicky, Walcott, Nasri….bags of talent in our squad. Goals galore but we’ve never been able to keep the energy levels up for the season or keep everyone fit. In the 2008, the team were left huffing and puffing in the same way this team seem gassed right now. It’s a combination of problems and I can’t see anything changing anytime soon. In his most recent interview he seemed reluctant to blame the staff or his methods but blamed the supplements players were using. Hair supplements. It’s the sort of stubborn soundbite that we’ve grown used to.

Yes - I agree - and I have read Le Grove. What is disturbing is that Wenger - such an intelligent and knowlegable man - sees what is happening year after year but does nothing to change his methods, and refuses even to bring in an expert to assist him to try to update his training methods and solve the problems that we have. He won't change now, and I do not believe that our team will progress any further under him, and may well regress. But I suppose that my position may have altered as regards why. I wonder now whether methods rather than tactics per se are to blame.

[Kano]

Yes - I agree - and I have read Le Grove. What is disturbing is that Wenger - such an intelligent and knowlegable man - sees what is happening year after year but does nothing to change his methods, and refuses even to bring in an expert to assist him to try to update his training methods and solve the problems that we have. He won't change now, and I do not believe that our team will progress any further under him, and may well regress. But I suppose that my position may have altered as regards why. I wonder now whether methods rather than tactics per se are to blame.

Blaming it on injuries/methods still allows some room to suggest part of the problem is out of his hands. Problems on the field, as well as off, have gone on too long to suggest it is not entirely the managers fault.

Despite missing key players there is no excuse to be pummelled as we have been numerous times. I'm not sure any team in the league can match such a poor record away to top four opposition this season. Going back further we have struggled to beat top four teams with more players available. It's clearly a tactical as well as training issue that needs to be resolved at our club. If we want to beat teams above us we need to do far more than just 'play our game'. Even with a weakened team at the very least we should be hard to beat but that has been ruthlessly exposed this season. Even with all those players available this season, they would need a proper game plan to overcome teams of similar ability. It's why we've never done that well in the CL too.

[Letters]

I'm not sure any team in the league can match such a poor record away to top four opposition this season.

Liverpool lost all 3 away games against the rest of the top 4.

#justsayin'

But yeah, we shouldn't be getting humped like we have.

[Power n Glory]

Yes - I agree - and I have read Le Grove. What is disturbing is that Wenger - such an intelligent and knowlegable man - sees what is happening year after year but does nothing to change his methods, and refuses even to bring in an expert to assist him to try to update his training methods and solve the problems that we have. He won't change now, and I do not believe that our team will progress any further under him, and may well regress. But I suppose that my position may have altered as regards why. I wonder now whether methods rather than tactics per se are to blame.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to impose our brand of football on the opposition. I can almost understand why Wenger would want to avoid get bogged down in man marking players like Messi because it can stop a players natural game and can be perceived as negative. In theory, I can understand it. But I have no idea if he recognises the weak areas in our team and why certain combinations of players work over others. He's an intelligent guy so he must know, but we still see this stubborn streak that almost defies all logic. I can only put it down to what Fergie said about his arrogance and refusing to believe his approach won't work. I think it's a combination of both.

[Power n Glory]

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey, i got called a wenger apologist when i have questioned (and still do) how much money this club actually has to spend, when you factor in how obscene transfer wages and player wages are in the modern game?.
What does that even have to do with AW's competence as manager would be my response?

That's an issue we disagree on. I think we're in a healthy position and should adjust our wage bill. But we've been over that and I know you're not a Wenger apologist. These labels shouldn't be thrown around even if we do disagree on certain aspects of the club.

[Kano]

Liverpool lost all 3 away games against the rest of the top 4.

#justsayin'

But yeah, we shouldn't be getting humped like we have.

You're second line is what I was getting at. Losing is one thing but getting humiliated like that across the season is exceptionally bad. Other teams can match the defeat record but even the poor ones realise they have to tighten up at times.

[Letters]

You're second line is what I was getting at. Losing is one thing but getting humiliated like that across the season is exceptionally bad. Teams can match the defeat record but even the poor ones realise they have to tighten up at times.

It happening 3 times in one season is pretty bad (arguably twice, I thought we played pretty well at City and could have been closer).
You'd have thought after the 2nd one we'd have approached the 3rd differently.

[Niall_Quinn]

As can be seen, we are only just behind Chelsea, and 800K ahead of Liverpool. Now I know that this ignores transfer spending - and that is where we have a more legitimate claim to have been relative paupers these past few years - but Rogers has spent 100M on transfers since he has been at Liverpool - and while I haven't checked, I would imagine that we have spent at least this much (for these purposes, net spend is irrelevant).

Other way around - gross spend irrelevant, net spend all important. A negative net spend shows talent going out, negative plus shows talent coming in. In the main. And you don't really need to examine the figures because it's self evident when you see who we sold compared to who we bought. The quality has ebbed away all over the pitch - consequence of funding business operations with player transfers. Should reverse now though, first signs of that being last summer.