Summer Transfer Misery 2017/18

[Niall_Quinn]

You're right in the sense that Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich have become part of the elite through past success that has given them the reputation that makes them marketable qualities.

You're absolutely right we quite probably could match PSG, City and Chelsea in the market for One season, where they have the advantage is that they can do it every season and can up the ante anytime they choose.

You seem to be convinced that I'm mitigating for Wengers failings, I'm not. His failure is even when it's possible to compete he has completely failed to do so....that no matter what the season the same failings, the same excuses etc

What I am saying is look at Spurs and their points total last season, that would have been enough for them to win the title in years gone by. But last season Chelsea won 30 games (unprecedented in a 38 game season) and teams like that can reach that kind of level whenever they wish by just pouring their money into transfers.

We can claim it's because Antonio Conte is a genius but his tactical tweaks were quite obvious, and a lot of it came down to figurative dick stroking of individuals who Mourinho managed to piss off.

And will Conte win the champions league this season? No probably not.

Actually, the chav fans are starting to grumble because Abramovich has been running a much tighter ship of late and has been selling before he spends. The chav model has changed considerably in recent years. I think they banked close on 60 mill this time around just from moving on some of their loan legion. I might be wrong on that, I read it in passing and didn't dig into the details. But regardless, the chavs are methodically moving away from being a cash dumping outfit.

The gypos, until Pep's arrival and his unique approach to being a genius, were going the same way. These "doping" clubs (Utd aside because they are a one-off freak in terms of earning power) are all tending towards balancing the books. They all did it the right way around, invest, reap the rewards, create sustainability. We created sustainability at a time the league was going through an explosion of growth and with all the inflation that brings. So it never worked for us and our long term boasting is proving to be hollow. We wanted a risk averse model and if you won't take a risk then you won't see a reward. Just compare us to where we were back when Wenger first joined. Hiring the bloke in the first place was viewed as a massive risk. Signing Bergkamp for a club record fee, a player who has tailed off badly in Milan, signing Vieria, another player who was underachieving at the time. Look at how those risks paid off. But when Kroenke arrived, all change. But he couldn't do it alone and Wenger's boasts about conservatism have been the loudest of all.

I'm not saying you are trying to excuse Wenger, what I'm saying is you seem to still believe his focus is on the football. Well maybe it is, but only in the sense AFC needs to run a football club as the vehicle that delivers the earnings. In terms of running a competitive club, I can't see how Wenger has been interested in that in years, otherwise he'd have taken the steps necessary to compete. He hasn't taken any of them. He's done the reverse.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Dortmund and Atletico are smaller clubs than Arsenal. Klopp and Simeone haven't had decades to build squad after squad with consistent qualification like Arsene has. That's the point.

Simeone has won the UEFA Cup with Atletico and reached the final of the CL twice along with a semi and quarter final place.

Also, bare in mind, these two coaches haven't had the sort of players Wenger has had. When we had Bergkamp, Henry, Vieira, Sol Campbell, Pires, Ljunberg, Wiltord, Gilberto....world cup winners and experienced internationals...he should have done better an especially when more teams were winning it.

I agree completely. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the ECL is now a totally closed shop unless you spend so much you end up being the subject of FFP investigation. So you can be a poor coach like Wenger is or a very good coach like Klopp or Simeone....it's not going to make a huge amount of difference. The latter may find themselves getting to the latter stages more often but ultimately they will come up against sides that can wipe them off the face of the earth with the sheer talent in their side.

Wenger has no excuse for failing to win the competition in the past, but it's probably sensible to recognise that no matter what he does....that ship has sailed for him and probably for Arsenal for the foreseeable future (with or without him as manager)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Actually, the chav fans are starting to grumble because Abramovich has been running a much tighter ship of late and has been selling before he spends. The chav model has changed considerably in recent years. I think they banked close on 60 mill this time around just from moving on some of their loan legion. I might be wrong on that, I read it in passing and didn't dig into the details. But regardless, the chavs are methodically moving away from being a cash dumping outfit.

The gypos, until Pep's arrival and his unique approach to being a genius, were going the same way. These "doping" clubs (Utd aside because they are a one-off freak in terms of earning power) are all tending towards balancing the books. They all did it the right way around, invest, reap the rewards, create sustainability. We created sustainability at a time the league was going through an explosion of growth and with all the inflation that brings. So it never worked for us and our long term boasting is proving to be hollow. We wanted a risk averse model and if you won't take a risk then you won't see a reward. Just compare us to where we were back when Wenger first joined. Hiring the bloke in the first place was viewed as a massive risk. Signing Bergkamp for a club record fee, a player who has tailed off badly in Milan, signing Vieria, another player who was underachieving at the time. Look at how those risks paid off. But when Kroenke arrived, all change. But he couldn't do it alone and Wenger's boasts about conservatism have been the loudest of all.

I'm not saying you are trying to excuse Wenger, what I'm saying is you seem to still believe his focus is on the football. Well maybe it is, but only in the sense AFC needs to run a football club as the vehicle that delivers the earnings. In terms of running a competitive club, I can't see how Wenger has been interested in that in years, otherwise he'd have taken the steps necessary to compete. He hasn't taken any of them. He's done the reverse.

Yeah and I'm saying that isn't deliberate on his part it's a result of being a poor coach who may possibly have been elite level twenty years ago, but is barely even average now.

You mention Chelsea and they are starting to struggle in terms of recruitment because of this tight ship running and are largely reliant on the accumulation of top quality talent over the last five years in order to make them competitive.

City and United will keep on buying and buying and buying. And for that reason we should recognise that even with a better coach the top prizes will be out of reach more often than not. It's just a case of being able to take the oportunity when either slips and with Wenger we just can't anymore.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Arsenal should be achieving what the likes of Dortmund, Atletico or even Leicester have

But it's also about recognising that if and when we do achieve these things it will be the outlier not the usual (like it was with them)

The problem with Wenger is knowing we will never be able to take the oportunity no matter what.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree completely. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the ECL is now a totally closed shop unless you spend so much you end up being the subject of FFP investigation. So you can be a poor coach like Wenger is or a very good coach like Klopp or Simeone....it's not going to make a huge amount of difference. The latter may find themselves getting to the latter stages more often but ultimately they will come up against sides that can wipe them off the face of the earth with the sheer talent in their side.

Wenger has no excuse for failing to win the competition in the past, but it's probably sensible to recognise that no matter what he does....that ship has sailed for him and probably for Arsenal for the foreseeable future (with or without him as manager)

Agreed that the CL is a bit of a silly example. So far beyond us we'll need a faster than light breakthrough to get back in the same galaxy. The disgrace is how far behind we are in our own domestic league. A double digit deficit is normality and yet we still hear from them how we will be challenging based on nothing changing. Everton don't pop up each season with claims of a pending title triumph. Everyone would laugh if they did. But Wenger still does it and it's more than embarrassing this late in the same old game.

What this lot can't do is admit the truth, we have been steered into second tier status. The reverse of where these geniuses were supposed to be driving us. And all the excuses we have to listen to. Financial doping and economic downturns and finishing double digits behind Leicester when all our other rivals collapsed.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Agreed that the CL is a bit of a silly example. So far beyond us we'll need a faster than light breakthrough to get back in the same galaxy. The disgrace is how far behind we are in our own domestic league. A double digit deficit is normality and yet we still hear from them how we will be challenging based on nothing changing. Everton don't pop up each season with claims of a pending title triumph. Everyone would laugh if they did. But Wenger still does it and it's more than embarrassing this late in the same old game.

What this lot can't do is admit the truth, we have been steered into second tier status. The reverse of where these geniuses were supposed to be driving us. And all the excuses we have to listen to. Financial doping and economic downturns and finishing double digits behind Leicester when all our other rivals collapsed.

This debate started because Zim assumed as he does that Wenger saying he's not bothered by not winning the champions league is a sign of his lack of ambition. I think he's lying to mask the fact that he knows he's had his chance he fluffed it and he'll probably never get one again.

If Spurs and Liverpool are competitive in the league, if Leicester City can win the league we have absolutely no excuse of course.

I don't expect us to win the league that often, but I expect us to be competitive to the bitter end every season.

[Power n Glory]

I agree completely. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the ECL is now a totally closed shop unless you spend so much you end up being the subject of FFP investigation. So you can be a poor coach like Wenger is or a very good coach like Klopp or Simeone....it's not going to make a huge amount of difference. The latter may find themselves getting to the latter stages more often but ultimately they will come up against sides that can wipe them off the face of the earth with the sheer talent in their side.

Wenger has no excuse for failing to win the competition in the past, but it's probably sensible to recognise that no matter what he does....that ship has sailed for him and probably for Arsenal for the foreseeable future (with or without him as manager)

I'm not so sure about that. I still think there is a chance for an outsider and it's not as if the outsiders are all dropping out at the early stages. Looking at recent history, Atletico have made it to the final twice and Juve came close in 2015 with Dortmund in the final in 2014. Bayern winning in 2013 was the start of their European resurgence because they weren't spoken of as that much of a force outside of that year.

Winning the competition is hard but the amount of times Wenger has gone out at the group stage or first round of the knock out stage is pretty poor. Take Monaco from last year as an example. That teams been dismantled now but we can say that team had the next generation of French internationals playing for them. They made it to the semi finals. With the Golden Age French players at his disposal and more, Wenger could only make it as far as the QF on two occasions in the CL. With his best ever team he could never make it far in the comp. It's a really poor record and I've never seen a coach have chance after chance to rebuild a team after being dismantled.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

The Ornstein post really sums us up as a club: naive, dithering & lacking ruthlessness.

One of the reasons why Chelsea sold Matic was that he had two years and left and refused to commit to signing a new contract -- I so wish we would have a similar policy instead of letting players and agents abuse us by stalling new contract offers and letting them wind into their final year. Either sign when there's two years left to go or you're sold - NO EXCEPTIONS! They way things are with us, we're constantly firefighting and next year it's going to get worst with the likes of Ramsey & Jack up.



By the way did anyone see our blundering chairman Sir Chips Keswick committing a PR blunder by admitting he preferred horse racing to football at the weekend when he was interviewed on TV?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/43834...-horse-racing/

Out of touch useless old fart. The fact that he, someone who likely doesn't even like football, is our chairman symbolises the shambles we're in.

Here's a novel idea ...... how about for board members we have people who are actually Arsenal fans who're in tune with the modern game instead of an absentee Yank with zero interest & his crony son and ancient elitist Tories in it for the freebies.

Maybe an ex player/legend like Pires, Keown, Dixon etc ..... heck for even some of his weird behaviour at times, I'd have Sol Campbell ahead of them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not so sure about that. I still think there is a chance for an outsider and it's not as if the outsiders are all dropping out at the early stages. Looking at recent history, Atletico have made it to the final twice and Juve came close in 2015 with Dortmund in the final in 2014. Bayern winning in 2013 was the start of their European resurgence because they weren't spoken of as that much of a force outside of that year.

Winning the competition is hard but the amount of times Wenger has gone out at the group stage or first round of the knock out stage is pretty poor. Take Monaco from last year as an example. That teams been dismantled now but we can say that team had the next generation of French internationals playing for them. They made it to the semi finals. With the Golden Age French players at his disposal and more, Wenger could only make it as far as the QF on two occasions in the CL. With his best ever team he could never make it far in the comp. It's a really poor record and I've never seen a coach have chance after chance to rebuild a team after being dismantled.

The last time a club that didn't either have a massive European reputation or wasn't a club that was massively financially doped won the EC was arguably Inter in 2010.

The days of plucky Liverpool (who even themselves are a club of huge European pedigree) or Porto winning the competition are a long way away.

Wenger has failed to make a dent in the competition, his failure to get past the last 16 most times whether we are playing PSV or Barcelona is totally unacceptable.

The better managers like Simeone and Klopp are chipping away and maybe in an outlier season coming close, but they aren't winning the thing.

Neither is Conte neither is Allegri. Yes I agree there is a difference, Wengers failure to win in the past is a reflection on him as a coach....there's isn't so much. It doesn't mean that if Zidane picks up the trophy again or Unai Emery does it with PSG they are better than them.

It's just that the ECL is ultimately for the likes of Real Madrid and PSG (and maybe City)

[Power n Glory]

The last time a club that didn't either have a massive European reputation or wasn't a club that was massively financially doped won the EC was arguably Inter in 2010.

The days of plucky Liverpool (who even themselves are a club of huge European pedigree) or Porto winning the competition are a long way away.

Wenger has failed to make a dent in the competition, his failure to get past the last 16 most times whether we are playing PSV or Barcelona is totally unacceptable.

The better managers like Simeone and Klopp are chipping away and maybe in an outlier season coming close, but they aren't winning the thing.

Neither is Conte neither is Allegri. Yes I agree there is a difference, Wengers failure to win in the past is a reflection on him as a coach....there's isn't so much. It doesn't mean that if Zidane picks up the trophy again or Unai Emery does it with PSG they are better than them.

It's just that the ECL is ultimately for the likes of Real Madrid and PSG (and maybe City)

PSG and Man City? Neither have made it to the final. City made it to the semi final once since striking oil. You might be confusing the dominance of the two Spanish giants. Look at the finals over the last 5 seasons. Juve have made it to the final twice, Atletico twice and Dortmund has one. These aren't super rich teams. I'd agree with your point if it's been a seasons of Barca v Real v Man City v PSG finals on rotation.