This Weekend's Fixtures & Midwek Fixtures (29/30 Nov/01/03/04/05 Dec)

[Letters]

So yes the situation is clear, either watch Liverpool’s games and dispute my argument on that basis or don’t.

Again, you are not the only person who watches their games.
You are the only person I know of who does so and is dismissing this all as luck and easy fixtures.
It seems increasingly clear you're just doing this because of your pre-season predictions. Rather than admitting you under-rated them you are finding increasingly ridiculous excuses as to why you were right all along. But you've set out your criteria for evaluating them at the turn of the year so I guess let's resume this then.

[HCZ_Reborn]

If they are nine points clear on January 1st, then some reassessment will have to occur. Though i imagine that will more take the form of re-examining how I’ve overestimated the quality of our players.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Again, you are not the only person who watches their games.
You are the only person I know of who does so and is dismissing this all as luck and easy fixtures.
It seems increasingly clear you're just doing this because of your pre-season predictions. Rather than admitting you under-rated them you are finding increasingly ridiculous excuses as to why you were right all along. But you've set out your criteria for evaluating them at the turn of the year so I guess let's resume this then.

Do you remember two years ago where you scoffed at me for claiming I was able to make claims about Arteta as a person from his body language, how is this any different from what you’re doing here.

I know loads of people who think X, is the specious way that Mac makes arguments. For me it’s unfalsifiable because I have no idea whether these people exist and what their views actually are.

Personally I cannot see how it cannot be attributed massively to luck, but I don’t assert that…that’s an opinion.

I’m not impressed at all by this Liverpool side, that we are nine points behind them represents for me how fortunate they’ve been both in terms of favourable decisions by match officials and the failure of other teams to take their chances, and on our side a mixture of incredibly harsh unfavourable decision making by match officials and pig headed stubbornness on the part of our coach.

These discussions are pointless, I know what I think and why. But I’m not going to persuade you to think other than what you do about my motivations.

But I would remark that it’s funny how you rely on the majority opinion must be the correct one (if I allow for your statement that you know loads of other people who have watched Liverpool to be a factual claim) and yet seemingly can’t make that say connection when it comes to voting rights. Using your logic, you should go away and watch Liverpool play before coming to any firm opinion.

[Letters]

Do you remember two years ago where you scoffed at me for claiming I was able to make claims about Arteta as a person from his body language

I do! I continue to scoff at that.

how is this any different from what you’re doing here.

The difference is I have years of interaction with you on here, I'm not just looking at a few minutes of a highly edited "reality" show and making pontifications about the state of someone's marriage based on it.
You have a need to be very very right about things. A need I would concede I also have. But I like to think I'm a bit more willing to change my opinions based on new data and that's what I'm doing with Liverpool. The new data being they've dropped 5 points from 39 and, while we're here, they're top of the CL "table" too, having won every game there and just beaten Real Madrid (who are admittedly stuttering in the CL so far, but they're only a point off the top of La Liga having only lost one game domestically, they're not suddenly a bad side).

OK, fine, I don't watch football much these days. So I'll concede your opinion has more merit than mine in some ways. But as I've said you're not unique in watching football. You are unique - in terms of people I've spoken to and seen analysing how things are going - in dismissing Liverpool as this mediocre team who are just getting lucky.

Personally I cannot see how it cannot be attributed massively to luck, but I don’t assert that…that’s an opinion.

It just seems an increasingly silly opinion the longer the season goes on. You can get lucky in one off games maybe but from 13 league games and 5 CL games, they've won 16 drawn 1 and lost 1. And the loss was a bizarre outlier. To dismiss all that as just easy games and luck is perverse.

I certainly agree that we shouldn't be 9 points behind them. We have dropped points we shouldn't have. But this is about where Liverpool are, not us.

These discussions are pointless

Are you new here?

But I would remark that it’s funny how you rely on the majority opinion must be the correct one (if I allow for your statement that you know loads of other people who have watched Liverpool to be a factual claim) and yet seemingly can’t make that say connection when it comes to voting rights.

The difference being your opinion is not just the minority one, you are literally the only person I've heard make this argument.
I just Googled "are Liverpool just getting lucky" to see if I could find anyone else in any other corner of the internet and couldn't find much.

Using your logic, you should go away and watch Liverpool play before coming to any firm opinion.

That would obviously help, but while one off results don't tell you much I think a long enough run of them does. We've had enough results now for me to re-evaluate my pre-season opinion of Liverpool. They do have a lot of away games coming up in December but, honestly, I can't see that many fixtures which I think they'll struggle in. And as I said we have to be perfect to capitalise if they do slip. It's starting to feel a long way back. Not an impossible task and there's long enough left it can be chipped away at, but right now it's looking like Liverpool who will capitalise on City's demise, not us.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I do! I continue to scoff at that.


The difference is I have years of interaction with you on here, I'm not just looking at a few minutes of a highly edited "reality" show and making pontifications about the state of someone's marriage based on it.
You have a need to be very very right about things. A need I would concede I also have. But I like to think I'm a bit more willing to change my opinions based on new data and that's what I'm doing with Liverpool. The new data being they've dropped 5 points from 39 and, while we're here, they're top of the CL "table" too, having won every game there and just beaten Real Madrid (who are admittedly stuttering in the CL so far, but they're only a point off the top of La Liga having only lost one game domestically, they're not suddenly a bad side).

OK, fine, I don't watch football much these days. So I'll concede your opinion has more merit than mine in some ways. But as I've said you're not unique in watching football. You are unique - in terms of people I've spoken to and seen analysing how things are going - in dismissing Liverpool as this mediocre team who are just getting lucky.


It just seems an increasingly silly opinion the longer the season goes on. You can get lucky in one off games maybe but from 13 league games and 5 CL games, they've won 16 drawn 1 and lost 1. And the loss was a bizarre outlier. To dismiss all that as just easy games and luck is perverse.

I certainly agree that we shouldn't be 9 points behind them. We have dropped points we shouldn't have. But this is about where Liverpool are, not us.


Are you new here?


The difference being your opinion is not just the minority one, you are literally the only person I've heard make this argument.
I just Googled "are Liverpool just getting lucky" to see if I could find anyone else in any other corner of the internet and couldn't find much.


That would obviously help, but while one off results don't tell you much I think a long enough run of them does. We've had enough results now for me to re-evaluate my pre-season opinion of Liverpool. They do have a lot of away games coming up in December but, honestly, I can't see that many fixtures which I think they'll struggle in. And as I said we have to be perfect to capitalise if they do slip. It's starting to feel a long way back. Not an impossible task and there's long enough left it can be chipped away at, but right now it's looking like Liverpool who will capitalise on City's demise, not us.

But you accept presumably that you have zero basis to make that claim that you don’t think they’ll struggle in those games anymore than you have for the fact that they are flying. “I can’t see them struggling” is about as laudable as it would be if it was made by David Blunkett


I’m basing it on the fact that they simply have not collectively had such hard fixtures away from home. Of the six away games they’ve played so far, four have been against sides battling relegation, one against a side that due to poor results sacked its coach and barely scraped a draw against us in the poorest form we’ve had in almost a year.


Could there be a level they can reach that I’ve previously not seen where they aren’t relying almost singularly on Salah nearly every game, or the referee being generous with penalty awards.


Of course.


But I genuinely dont get the suggestion that this is not a far more significant test for them in the form of a mid week game at a physical Newcastle side, an away fixture at Goodison park where they’ve won only twice in the past eight seasons, spurs who though inconsistent have the ability to take big scalps and despite our win there West Ham will be no picnic either (though it’s probably the most winnable fixture for them out of the four). As you’ve spoken about form, it’s definitely not inconceivable to see dropped points in any of these games bleed through to their home games, because when you’ve been used to having it your own way and suddenly you don’t….uncertainty creeps in

[HCZ_Reborn]

My contention is that if they retain their current lead over us to the beginning of January it will more likely be because we’ve dropped points as well than them winning every game. We should be beating United but theres always the chance of dropped points in such a fixture as there are in away games against Fulham and Palace. If we don’t win those games we have no business winning the title anyway, and Liverpool will emerge as the best out of a very poor bunch of teams.

If we are five points or fewer behind them after having played Brentford and Brighton back to back at the beginning of next month, I think we should be considered favourites for the league on the basis of respective remaining games


That and I think at our best we would beat them at Anfield

[Letters]

But you accept presumably that you have zero basis to make that claim that you don’t think they’ll struggle in those games

No I don't. I have explained my basis.

But to suggest this is not a far more significant test for them in the form of a mid week game at a physical Newcastle side, an away fixture at Goodison park where they’ve won only twice in the past eight seasons, spurs who though inconsistent have the ability to take big scalps and despite our win there West Ham will be no picnic either (though it’s probably the most winnable fixture for them out of the four). As you’ve spoken about form, it’s definitely not inconceivable to see dropped points in any of these games bleed through to their home games, because when you’ve been used to having it your own way and suddenly you don’t….uncertainty creeps in

I hope you're right, obviously.

My contention is that if they retain their current lead over us to the beginning of January it will more likely be because we’ve dropped points as well than them winning every game.

That may be true but there's the issue in being 9 points off the top, every game becomes a must win.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I don't. I have explained my basis.


I hope you're right, obviously.


That may be true but there's the issue in being 9 points off the top, every game becomes a must win.

Ok your basis is a league table, a league table will tell you what has happened but nothing about the how or why.


Or indeed your basis is people who might or might not exist (for the purpose of fairness I’ll presume they do) who unlike me have not suggested Liverpool’s fortune is largely attributable to fortune, favourable decisions and favourable fixtures.


And on that basis despite knowing anything else about how Liverpool is performing you feel confident to predict that you don’t see how they’ll struggle in the games they have to play this month.
Despite how they were second best for at least half of the game against Southampton, how the game before that against Villa…Villa also being in terrible form missed a great number of chances to equalise before the game was put to bed.

That Brighton knocked the living daylights out of them first half at Anfield and it would not have flattered them at all to be two or three nil up.

The dubious penalty decisions against Chelsea and against Southampton without which they probably wouldn’t have won either game.

The failure of awarding us a penalty against them, along with the numerous glaring chances we missed despite sitting back in the second half.

And you will invariably revert back to your “but they must be good, they’ve won 11 out of 13”


The free flowing team that has scored more than two goals in a game on fewer occasions than even we’ve managed

That struggle to put their own chances away and are grateful that their opponents are profligate

Like i say, will see how good they are when they aren’t playing relegation fodder and teams in the doldrums.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also every game between now and the end of the year should be a must win, regardless of whether we have a 9 point deficit or a 9 point lead. Because they are games we should be winning.

If I appear irritable, it’s because of how ostensibly intelligent people are parroting a media that is utterly in the tank for Liverpool and treating them winning the title as a fait accomplit.

Very silly. Very precipitous

It’s like they are comparing this team to the one under Klopp, which was utterly relentless in the way it forced opponents into mistakes, had boundless energy and could just wear you down and put four or five past you. Compared to that Liverpool team, I state again this is more like a Leicester city

[Letters]

Ok your basis is a league table, a league table will tell you what has happened but nothing about the how or why.

The league table, the overall form they've been in, other conversations I've had with people and things I've read.
They've played 20 games this season in all competitions, won 18, drawn 1, lost 1. I don't need to have watched the games to know that's a team worth taking seriously. You can cherry pick incidents here and there in games where you feel they've got a bit lucky, but over 20 games I call bullshit on those results just being luck or easy games.

And on that basis despite knowing anything else about how Liverpool is performing you feel confident to predict that you don’t see how they’ll struggle in the games they have to play this month.

I wouldn't say I'm very confident - I don't think one should ever be too confident about predictions in football. It is, famously, a "funny old game". But on paper yeah, I think those are mostly games they should win. But they do have a lot of away games coming up so I am of course hopeful they'll slip up here and there and that we can capitalise.