Arsenal 0-1 West Ham Match Reaction

[KSE Comedy Club]

I just feel there's goals in this side. Admittedly that opinion is starting to fly in the face of evidence, but Nwaneri looks likely, Odegaard can score, Rice chips in here and there.
I basically agree with you though and it's why I think you're being a bit harsh on Arteta. Yes, we are light on squad depth and yes we needed a striker but I'm not sure Arteta is responsible for transfer dealings. And we're still above everyone but Liverpool - they've been lucky with injuries and have had Salah on absolute fire all season.

There are goals, but this season our entire style of play has been turned upside down.

We don't counter with pace, we stop and hold up play when in good positions.
We spend too much time passing backwards and sideways.
Our general slow build up is the main cause of us not being able to 'break teams down' - if we actually ran at goal sometimes their defences wouldn't have time to organise themselves in tight military lines.
Our attackers look to pass out wide continually, instead of being more direct - our biggest reason for not scoring goals after......
Seemingly losing the ability to shoot on target!

[HCZ_Reborn]

I used the expression yesterday that talk of tactics was arranging deckchairs on the titanic and I stick by that. The mistake we made was assuming that the same players who got us 91 goals was it last season would be able to repeat that feat and that’s before we ran them into the ground

Comparing our plight to Man City’s which IBK has done I find particularly curious as City haven’t to my mind really experienced a problem with breaking teams down, their problem is in keeping goals out at the other end. And that is down to the fact that they are no longer being protected by the best defensive midfielder in the world.


If the argument is that possession based football is dull, can be vulnerable to teams that counter attack well etc…I mean that’s obvious isn’t it? It’s not a revelation that’s only become true this season. There isn’t an infallible tactic.


The irony of Arteta’s wish to make sure we don’t ship goals is that shipping goals on the counter becomes more likely when you do not have efficient chance makers and goal scorers because the absence of that forces you to overcommit. Doubly so when your first choice front three is all on the injury table. We all I think agree that we should make more of counter attacks and last season in the second half anyway it’s fair to say we did.


Both our wingers would make a run even before Raya intercepted a cross into the box and would throw the ball out for them to break.


The problem this season is we find it harder to take the lead to begin with. Why? A) for some reason I think players are missing chances that they’d otherwise score and B) Teams are better at working out how to neutralise us at set pieces (last time we scored from a set piece was January 1st)

The fact is the only way we are going to be able to play more direct is if teams come out and attack us to begin with, which they are under no obligation to do and if they are sensible they won’t (Palace and City it turns out aren’t sensible) so the talk of being more direct and quick is kind of academic.

Someone here accused MLS of dithering on the ball, it’s a fair criticism I guess but players dither on the ball when they aren’t confident in possession. They are half a second too slow in deciding whether to make a pass or whether to run another few yards with the ball. That kind of instinct is something you develop as a teenager you either have it or you don’t, and frankly players like MLS, Rice etc don’t. Rice is someone built to instinctively read danger and put out fires, his reading of the game doesn’t extend to being able to play an exact pass and know someone will be on the end of it.

Tactically it’s unnecessary to play two defensive midfielders against West Ham, in reality we don’t have the luxury of remedying that situation currently.

[IBK]

There are goals, but this season our entire style of play has been turned upside down.

We don't counter with pace, we stop and hold up play when in good positions.
We spend too much time passing backwards and sideways.
Our general slow build up is the main cause of us not being able to 'break teams down' - if we actually ran at goal sometimes their defences wouldn't have time to organise themselves in tight military lines.
Our attackers look to pass out wide continually, instead of being more direct - our biggest reason for not scoring goals after......
Seemingly losing the ability to shoot on target!

...which brings me back to the point I was making about our whole system/style of play, and whether this is becoming a bit obselete. HCZ says what can we do when teams don't come to play us. For me this is a bit of a cop out. For the last 2 or 3 seasons mid/low blocks have been a problem for us, even when at full strength. The manager has not found an effective answer (even our much vaunted set pieces have been found out). Like you say, the way we play is an open invitation to defences to get re-organised. An effective system should not have to rely one individual player (Saka) to produce a moment of brilliance. For all that Liverpool have benefitted from Salah's form, they create a multitude of chances every game and would still do without him. We make the game too difficult.

We do not manage transitions, there is indeed a lack of direct running, and options when we 'attack'. We almost oblige defensive teams by playing the ball wide and slowing the game down.

And the huge irony is that we nullify the advantage of having such a talented defence - and one of the best 6's in the game in Rice - by playing them so high up the pitch to make up for our lack of dynamism in midfield.

[HCZ_Reborn]

...which brings me back to the point I was making about our whole system/style of play, and whether this is becoming a bit obselete. HCZ says what can we do when teams don't come to play us. For me this is a bit of a cop out. For the last 2 or 3 seasons mid/low blocks have been a problem for us, even when at full strength. The manager has not found an effective answer (even our much vaunted set pieces have been found out). Like you say, the way we play is an open invitation to defences to get re-organised. An effective system should not have to rely one individual player (Saka) to produce a moment of brilliance. For all that Liverpool have benefitted from Salah's form, they create a multitude of chances every game and would still do without him. We make the game too difficult.

We do not manage transitions, there is indeed a lack of direct running, and options when we 'attack'. We almost oblige defensive teams by playing the ball wide and slowing the game down.

And the huge irony is that we nullify the advantage of having such a talented defence - and one of the best 6's in the game in Rice - by playing them so high up the pitch to make up for our lack of dynamism in midfield.

I think you’re missing my point which is at this exact moment in time it’s completely and totally academic. I’ve said until I’m blue in the face that most of the time we absolutely do not need to be playing two defensive midfielders, and in fact my last post actually fulsomely agrees with your point that actually ironically the contradiction between wanting to play this controlled game which makes our attacking inefficient which means we have to overcommit and as a result get caught too high in possession.

But given where we are at the moment in terms of the players available to us, we have two choices….continue to play the way we are doing and make ourselves vulnerable to conceding on the break, or we play more conservatively and hope against hope to get a scrappy goal. The luxury is not there to play the ball quicker. I’m literally the person who always moans about us playing Rice at 8, but I’m in no expectation that if we swap Rice and Partey around everything is going to get magically better and we will create far more chances which our second string attack will put away.

[IBK]

I think you’re missing my point which is at this exact moment in time it’s completely and totally academic. I’ve said until I’m blue in the face that most of the time we absolutely do not need to be playing two defensive midfielders, and in fact my last post actually fulsomely agrees with your point that actually ironically the contradiction between wanting to play this controlled game which makes our attacking inefficient which means we have to overcommit and as a result get caught too high in possession.

But given where we are at the moment in terms of the players available to us, we have two choices….continue to play the way we are doing and make ourselves vulnerable to conceding on the break, or we play more conservatively and hope against hope to get a scrappy goal. The luxury is not there to play the ball quicker. I’m literally the person who always moans about us playing Rice at 8, but I’m in no expectation that if we swap Rice and Partey around everything is going to get magically better and we will create far more chances which our second string attack will put away.

'Academic' debate is all we do on here

I do understand where we are - and that is a good part of my concern about where we can get to under Arteta. I think that we have set ourselves up - both in terms of our system and our players - not to be able to adapt to the more efficient and effective way in which many of our competitors are playing the game. I agree with you that swapping existing players will not achieve this. More generally, we have too few creative players; to few runners to receive the ball in advanced positions; and no reliable finishers.

We have spent on players and have a high wage bill. The quality we do have has been enough for us to finish second with a following wind. But our system is now too easily neutralised - even with all our forwards available. And even the potential transfer targets we have been linked to are unlikely, IMO to see us champions.

[HCZ_Reborn]

'Academic' debate is all we do on here

I do understand where we are - and that is a good part of my concern about where we can get to under Arteta. I think that we have set ourselves up - both in terms of our system and our players - not to be able to adapt to the more efficient and effective way in which many of our competitors are playing the game. I agree with you that swapping existing players will not achieve this. More generally, we have too few creative players; to few runners to receive the ball in advanced positions; and no reliable finishers.

We have spent on players and have a high wage bill. The quality we do have has been enough for us to finish second with a following wind. But our system is now too easily neutralised - even with all our forwards available. And even the potential transfer targets we have been linked to are unlikely, IMO to see us champions.

There’s nothing we can do to guarantee a league win. But ultimately there’s a reasonable expectation that having the best squad wins you the league regardless of the system you play, Liverpool are going to win because they arguably have the best available squad (which is currently a low bar). So in terms of which of us, city or Liverpool win the league next season comes down to who spends the wisest in the summer.

Having Rodri and having good attacking players allowed City to neutralise any potential weakness their style of play left them open to in transition.they were never having to overcommit. So really the stylistic change comes down to are we going to persist with two defensive midfielders in most games

[HCZ_Reborn]

By academic I mean, there’s nothing we can do currently that will make us more efficient up front

[IBK]

There’s nothing we can do to guarantee a league win. But ultimately there’s a reasonable expectation that having the best squad wins you the league regardless of the system you play, Liverpool are going to win because they arguably have the best available squad (which is currently a low bar). So in terms of which of us, city or Liverpool win the league next season comes down to who spends the wisest in the summer.

Having Rodri and having good attacking players allowed City to neutralise any potential weakness their style of play left them open to in transition.they were never having to overcommit. So really the stylistic change comes down to are we going to persist with two defensive midfielders in most games

OK - fair enough - but your assessment depends upon Arteta's system remaining competetive (in terms of being able to win the league) if we bring in the players he wants (itself by no means a given by reference to our past few transfer windows).

Both City and Liverpool are going to have to re-build. Citeh's because of ageing players dropping off and Liverpool's because of the 3 key players at the end of their contracts. We have to have the best transfer Summer in living memory - even if we retain faith in Arteta's system.

Honest (and open) question - who would you back to do the above most quickly and effectively? For me - given Citeh's wealth and the fact that (if he retains his drive and desire) Guardiola is a winner who has shown he can evolve and adapt, and given how impressive and what a perfect fit Slot has already proven himeself to be - I would be inclined to back either team over us.

Of course, we are ignoring the chasing pack here...there are a number of well managed and administered teams in the EPL now. Even if not winners, they are certainly disruptors.

This is not an over reaction to a season ending defeat. It is based more on trajectory and the eye test of what we are seeing on the pitch. Let's be honest, we have not really been functioning as a team all season, and having levelled out, Arsenal is now on a downward trajectory - and I feel that this is as much in the boardroom as on the pitch. Is this temporary, and does the club and manager have the will and the ability to arrest it?

[HCZ_Reborn]

OK - fair enough - but your assessment depends upon Arteta's system remaining competetive (in terms of being able to win the league) if we bring in the players he wants (itself by no means a given by reference to our past few transfer windows).

Both City and Liverpool are going to have to re-build. Citeh's because of ageing players dropping off and Liverpool's because of the 3 key players at the end of their contracts. We have to have the best transfer Summer in living memory - even if we retain faith in Arteta's system.

Honest (and open) question - who would you back to do the above most quickly and effectively? For me - given Citeh's wealth and the fact that (if he retains his drive and desire) Guardiola is a winner who has shown he can evolve and adapt, and given how impressive and what a perfect fit Slot has already proven himeself to be - I would be inclined to back either team over us.

Of course, we are ignoring the chasing pack here...there are a number of well managed and administered teams in the EPL now. Even if not winners, they are certainly disruptors.

This is not an over reaction to a season ending defeat. It is based more on trajectory and the eye test of what we are seeing on the pitch. Let's be honest, we have not really been functioning as a team all season, and having levelled out, Arsenal is now on a downward trajectory - and I feel that this is as much in the boardroom as on the pitch. Is this temporary, and does the club and manager have the will and the ability to arrest it?

City have a bigger job to do in my view

They have no idea what condition Rodri will be in after being out for so long. They have to replace defence, they have to replace De Bruyne and they have to contend with the fact that the spotlight will be very much on them even if they ultimately aren’t punished for their piss taking cheating.


Liverpool also have work to do. They will need replacements for Van Dijk and Salah


We really arent in a situation where we have to tear up everything and start again. I think there are players we could do with getting rid of, but they are largely on the periphery. We need to add to what we have. And ultimately we are dependent on how much KSE wants to be generous.

Players like Saliba? We need to sit down and talk to them. And say give us to 2026 to win something big, if we do you sign a new extension…if we don’t….we agree to sell you to Real Madrid.

I don’t think we are on a downward trajectory long term. We haven’t gelled as a team because there’s been almost no point during this season where we’ve been able to play our best team. Do we need to adapt? For sure. But at the most objective I can be if we take away the absolute crushing sense of disappointment we feel at not toppling a Liverpool side we all deep down know we are better than (to the point of wanting an inquest into it). Given everything that’s gone wrong for us this season (and yes it’s as much self inflicted as it is misfortune) we’ve actually shown remarkable resilience. That title ending defeat was the first league defeat in 15 games and it took our entire first choice front three to be out for it to happen.

Do I accept that in football if you’re not moving forward, you’re invariably moving backwards. Yes. And if we don’t get what we need to get this summer…I think the fanbase will not tolerate it. But ultimately whilst we do not want to stagnate we also don’t want to be a chaotic entity like Chelsea (a state that predates that American cretin taking over despite the shortness of other people’s memories)

[Letters]

'Academic' debate is all we do on here .

Rubbish!

We also insult each other. You prick.