Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Niall_Quinn]

We haven't and you know why,
You define pressure retrospectively based on results after the fact, completely ignoring all the 'must win' games where we did win.

No I don't. What I said, at least a couple of weeks back, is the pressure will build game by game during the run-in and each game becomes more important than the last. What you are trying to do is turn 4th place into a trophy and overplay the significance of the FA Cup. You've previously highlighted then spending of the gypos and chavs and used that as a reason why we couldn't compete at the very top. Well we had the jump on the gypos going into the final stretch so we could have finished above them, despite their cash. But we blew it. That's acceptable to you, but you also must accept it is totally unacceptable to some fans. Not because it's a one-off failure to maximise the possibilities but because it's a repeating pattern. You can try to dress it up however you like but the results still stand.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I stopped reading after he suggested Real Madrid might want to buy Sakho, anything he said lost any credibility after that point....the author had already half lost me by describing Brendan Rodgers as a talented manager.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Well yeah it has elements of Liverpool bias (Coutinho to Barca as well) but I don't think it detracts from the bigger point about why it's difficult for "tier 2" clubs to do well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

To be honest i think we are a tier 1 club in waiting, in that we are waiting for Wenger to get his gold watch and soapy tit wank from the board because we have the foundations in place.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fair points about the shitty players though. Football is rapidly becoming a celebrity thing, moving away from a sport. The quality is dropping with a whole bunch of overpaid, under-skilled farmers being propped up by a handful of genuine talents (Kompany NOT being one of them btw, BBC and Sky). No matter how hyped it all gets the media finds a way to hype it higher. It's like the emperor and his new clothes.

[Globalgunner]

The Battered wife syndrome was me and it still applies
I cant believe any fan starts the season expecting to be satisfied with 3rd or 4th. How is it that every pundit is the league, even shit ones talk abiout what Arsenal should be doing to win the league. They don't say the same thing about Spurs, Everton or even Pool, they are only mentioned in passing (apologies to CIB). We are a team who have traditionally, historically and even in recent seasons competed for titles. we have more than anyone except United and Pool. You get the feeling reading Letters myriad apologies for our failings that we could not win the league for another 10 years and he will hold fast to his "finacially doped teams excuse". Wenger is holding this club back end of.
How is it that we never aspire to win the CL, we cant because we havbe hit the glass ceiling with Wenger in charge. Its nice to be mentioned in the mix but in the last 16 of the CL any team that draws us just has a laugh and orders a bottle of Moet to celebrate progressing to the next round.

The synonym with Battered wives, is the fear of the unknown which Letters exhiits in every comment. The woman is afraid of losing her secure, yet painful existence and possibly falling into the hands of a worse person. Some fans are afraid of not being able to laugh at Spurs anymore, even for a season.
In reality, there is not one of 5 possible managerial candidates out there who wouldnt improve us. We have the team to be playing CL semis and finals, we need only better management, Our football is monotonous and utterly predictable. We have removed the spontaneity of shooting and the spirit of determination that once were our hallmark. How come Pulis can beat Mourinho with 2 crap teams twice in a row, but Wenger cant do it once in a dozen attempts. and before you jump in with some snide remark, Yes i would take Pulis over Wenger right now.

[Letters]

No I don't. What I said, at least a couple of weeks back, is the pressure will build game by game during the run-in and each game becomes more important than the last.

Which is true IF you're involved in a title race till the very death.
While we were in that race we did our bit. When it was over, top 4 was secured and with a Cup Final to consider there probably was as easing off, if only unconsciously. I can live with that.

You seem to be prioritizing finishing above City over the FA Cup, if so then it's you who are making that a 'trophy'. I'd rather have the real trophy, if I had to pick one.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes i would take Pulis over Wenger right now.

I was agreeing with you until i saw that, i think that comment shows a genuine disparity between what i would call the Wengerskeptics. I myself am a realist, i know he is with us until 2017 and there is nothing that will change that, people like myself acknowledge that it is incredibly unlikely that the romantic notion of Wenger going out on a high with one final title win is just unrealistic, but i still say he is no worse than Van Gaal or Pellegrini....both of them are for me absolute dinosaurs who are tactically deficient. But in order to beat the odds rather than hide behind them, we need someone young and fresh who is willing to delegate, take on new ideas and take risks.
There are those who i'm afraid to say you count as, that with Wenger familiarity breeds contempt that they are so desperate for change that almost anyone will do. Although the groundhog season grates (and yes i agree an FA cup doesn't count as marked improvement) the idea that most managers could have kept us in the top four season in season out is disingenuous and false.
Where i agree with you is that Wenger has hit a glass ceiling, he hasn't the ability to make the leap that changes us from top four to perenial title challengers and eventual title winners, football has changed and he hasn't...and he's very much yesterday's man.
Where i don't agree with you is that a mid table manager like Pulis on the back of one or two positive results against Mourinho would have done better, we can do better than Wenger i don't doubt that we can but anyone or anything is not better.

[Letters]

We are a team who have traditionally, historically and even in recent seasons competed for titles.

Seriously?! Go and read Fever Pitch. That will tell you a bit about the life and expectations of an Arsenal fan back in the day.

Before Wenger we never consistently challenged for the title over a long period of time.
After the period of dominance in the 30s and before Wenger we were champions in 1948, 1953, 1971, 1989 and 1991.
If we expect more these days then that is because of Wenger.

The Financially doped teams is not an 'excuse'. Money and success is clearly very highly correlated in modern football and we had the double whammy of the two billionaire cheats coming to prominence around the same time as we made the stadium move and secured long term financial deals which, while initially looking favourable, as the money spiraled started to restrict our spending. There are three clubs who have greater resources than us and they have divided the title between them every year since we last won it. And Utd only managed to spoil the party of the two clubs fueled by billionaires when Fergie was in change who, IMO, is the GOAT. That last season Utd had no right to win the title.

All that said, we have now repaid a lot of the stadium debt and have new financial deals in place, we are starting to be able to compete more seriously in the transfer market, the signings of Ozil and Sanchez are a level of player we couldn't get before and they have made a difference. I do think we're more able to compete with City and Chelsea and if FFP has any bite (skeptical) then we are very well placed to seriously challenge.

I do agree about the CL though, Wenger's record there is impressive in some ways (always qualifying, always getting to the last 16) and abject in others (rarely getting any further). That is where another manager may be able to push us on.

The reason your analogy doesn't work is where you say it's a "painful" existence. Really? There have been some massively frustrating times in the last two seasons but such is the life of a football fan of any club. Chelsea are champions but their fans must have been embarrassed at their FA Cup defeat. The most frustrating thing about the last 10 years has been the lack of trophies, we were so often the bridesmaid, never the bride. We started to put that right last year, if we retain the Cup then we're continuing to do so.

I wouldn't swap managers with any other club in the PL - I would with Chelsea where Mourinho not such a despicable ****, he's the only manager in the PL I rate more highly than Wenger although honourable mention to Koeman who has done an excellent job.

Finally:

Yes i would take Pulis over Wenger right now.

[Niall_Quinn]

Which is true IF you're involved in a title race till the very death.
While we were in that race we did our bit. When it was over, top 4 was secured and with a Cup Final to consider there probably was as easing off, if only unconsciously. I can live with that.

You seem to be prioritizing finishing above City over the FA Cup, if so then it's you who are making that a 'trophy'. I'd rather have the real trophy, if I had to pick one.

Where did I say or imply I'm prioritizing 2nd place over the cup? What I have said is 2nd place was in our grasp and, as we always do, we let it slip. We've been doing this for quite a few seasons now, failing to capitalise on our opportunities. If you think finishing above the gypos doesn't mean anything then you fail to grasp the fundamentals of competition. You keep presenting that run of wins as a landmark, then you conveniently conclude tailing off when there was a chance to turn that run into a tangible result is acceptable because we weren't catching the chavs, or we had already qualified for the CL, or there's no difference between second and third. The difference is pushing home the advantage, beating the dopers and finishing the PL on a high so we could take that optimism into next season. Not just next season, by the way, but that FA Cup you seem to believe is so significant. Why not go into that game unbeaten rather than struggling for a bit of form?

There's a lot riding on this cup, your excuses for a start. Wenger's job, not so much. He's here until 2017 when he'll decide if he wants to stay some more. Like you, he's happy with qualifying for the CL, doesn't feel the need to push for the maximum return and is selective when it comes to defining progress and success. The board is happy, the share price is rising, the debts are diminishing, almost everything at the club is in tip-top shape. The only thing we lack now is a desire to win. Shame that, seeing as we are in a competitive sporting environment.