Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Globalgunner]

I was agreeing with you until i saw that, i think that comment shows a genuine disparity between what i would call the Wengerskeptics. I myself am a realist, i know he is with us until 2017 and there is nothing that will change that, people like myself acknowledge that it is incredibly unlikely that the romantic notion of Wenger going out on a high with one final title win is just unrealistic, but i still say he is no worse than Van Gaal or Pellegrini....both of them are for me absolute dinosaurs who are tactically deficient. But in order to beat the odds rather than hide behind them, we need someone young and fresh who is willing to delegate, take on new ideas and take risks.
There are those who i'm afraid to say you count as, that with Wenger familiarity breeds contempt that they are so desperate for change that almost anyone will do. Although the groundhog season grates (and yes i agree an FA cup doesn't count as marked improvement) the idea that most managers could have kept us in the top four season in season out is disingenuous and false.
Where i agree with you is that Wenger has hit a glass ceiling, he hasn't the ability to make the leap that changes us from top four to perenial title challengers and eventual title winners, football has changed and he hasn't...and he's very much yesterday's man.
Where i don't agree with you is that a mid table manager like Pulis on the back of one or two positive results against Mourinho would have done better, we can do better than Wenger i don't doubt that we can but anyone or anything is not better.

Good thing i left that comment till last now. maybe the Pulis bit is fanciful, but realistically and analytically. If you examine it, Most teams end up where they're financial clout says they should be. It would take a really crap manager to take us from 4th to 6th or a monumental leap for Spurs or Pool to overtake us. We cannot stay in eternal purgatory waiting for Wenger to relent and say adieu. Is there any guarantee that either he or silent Sam wont agree to let it roll, on beyond 2017. If we only discussed here what is actually possible, we would not discuss anything, At least on these boards we can steer our team beyond the last 16 of the CL and consistently challenging for the league. Wenger should be appreciated for what he has done but he is not the only manager who can do what he has done, or maybe improve us. Even looking at Pulis, he is exactly the kind of manager Arsenal used to hire before Dein went to Japan to select a manager no one had heard of. We may not get the manager we want. Does that mean we stick with what we have in perpetuity.?

[Master Splinter]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

[Globalgunner]

Seriously?! Go and read Fever Pitch. That will tell you a bit about the life and expectations of an Arsenal fan back in the day.

Before Wenger we never consistently challenged for the title over a long period of time.
After the period of dominance in the 30s and before Wenger we were champions in 1948, 1953, 1971, 1989 and 1991.
If we expect more these days then that is because of Wenger.

The Financially doped teams is not an 'excuse'. Money and success is clearly very highly correlated in modern football and we had the double whammy of the two billionaire cheats coming to prominence around the same time as we made the stadium move and secured long term financial deals which, while initially looking favourable, as the money spiraled started to restrict our spending. There are three clubs who have greater resources than us and they have divided the title between them every year since we last won it. And Utd only managed to spoil the party of the two clubs fueled by billionaires when Fergie was in change who, IMO, is the GOAT. That last season Utd had no right to win the title.

All that said, we have now repaid a lot of the stadium debt and have new financial deals in place, we are starting to be able to compete more seriously in the transfer market, the signings of Ozil and Sanchez are a level of player we couldn't get before and they have made a difference. I do think we're more able to compete with City and Chelsea and if FFP has any bite (skeptical) then we are very well placed to seriously challenge.

I do agree about the CL though, Wenger's record there is impressive in some ways (always qualifying, always getting to the last 16) and abject in others (rarely getting any further). That is where another manager may be able to push us on.

The reason your analogy doesn't work is where you say it's a "painful" existence. Really? There have been some massively frustrating times in the last two seasons but such is the life of a football fan of any club. Chelsea are champions but their fans must have been embarrassed at their FA Cup defeat. The most frustrating thing about the last 10 years has been the lack of trophies, we were so often the bridesmaid, never the bride. We started to put that right last year, if we retain the Cup then we're continuing to do so.

I wouldn't swap managers with any other club in the PL - I would with Chelsea where Mourinho not such a despicable ****, he's the only manager in the PL I rate more highly than Wenger although honourable mention to Koeman who has done an excellent job.

Finally:

No team has dominated the league for a sustained period. Except for SAF, which proves the point that the manager is the most important element of success, then comes money. If SAF was in his 50s today, United would still be dominating even with City and Chelsea riches. Money is not the only arbiter of sucess as Dortmund and Athletico have proven. We are in a painful existence, if thumpings of 6, 8 and being knocked out by the likes of Monaco are not painful i dont know what is. Your devotion is not to Arsenal football club but to seeing Wenger in charge so that your spud colleagues dont laugh at you, a puerile and vain existence.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think it would take a monumental leap for Liverpool or Spurs to overtake us, both teams have had greater spending power than us from 2003 until 2013 (and Liverpool let's not forget finished above us in 2006, 2007, 2009 and last season)....so i repeat to claim that any old manager could have kept us in the top four is for me profoundly flawed.
The point is that the board should be looking within the next six months to make sure someone is in place by the time Wenger contract runs out (Guardiola agreed to take the reigns at Bayern a year before he joined them). If they don't do this than it confirms that we have more to worry about than Wenger.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

Depends what kind of purging...if it's purging with fire than i'm all for it. If it's purging in the same way a young girl with bodily dismorphia purges than hmmmm...maybe not

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

I doubt they are genuine comments.

[Master Splinter]

Depends what kind of purging...if it's purging with fire than i'm all for it. If it's purging in the same way a young girl with bodily dismorphia purges than hmmmm...maybe not

[Globalgunner]

I don't think it would take a monumental leap for Liverpool or Spurs to overtake us, both teams have had greater spending power than us from 2003 until 2013 (and Liverpool let's not forget finished above us in 2006, 2007, 2009 and last season)....so i repeat to claim that any old manager could have kept us in the top four is for me profoundly flawed.
The point is that the board should be looking within the next six months to make sure someone is in place by the time Wenger contract runs out (Guardiola agreed to take the reigns at Bayern a year before he joined them). If they don't do this than it confirms that we have more to worry about than Wenger.

There is no basis in your claim that Pool and Spuds have more spending power than us. They may have spent more than us but that is because they each sold an 80m player in recent seasons and why we have £200m in the bank while they still need owners to bankroll them, Spending power is the surfeit of income over expenditure and even in the years 2000 til date we have both clubs comfortably licked. They spent a lot of money trying to overtake us and we spent comparatively little keeping ahead. For this Wenger needs to be applauded, taking the next step however is physically beyond him. There we agree

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know anything about having accquired 200 million accumulatively, we have made a profit each season but that money then gets funneled back into servicing the debts and stadium repayments, day to day costs, players wages etc....and then after all after we had sold a player we usually were in the black.
The stadium naming renegotiation and the new kit sponsorship has brought us an added 80million in revenues a year and that is why we are now in a position to spend.
Liverpool and Spurs have had more to spend despite making less money because they haven't had a stadium to pay for, Liverpool gave up on moving to Stanley Park because they know it would financially cripple them and Spurs are in for a very hard time over the next five-ten years.

[Letters]

Where did I say or imply I'm prioritizing 2nd place over the cup?

You have repeatedly and consistently stressed the importance of 2nd place and repeatedly downplayed the FA Cup. So you haven't said it, but you've certainly implied it.

What I have said is 2nd place was in our grasp and, as we always do, we let it slip.

Yes, we've let the "2nd Place Trophy" slip and the "Finishing Above The Gypos Trophy". I'll cancel the open top bus.
Those aren't real trophies! The importance of a top 4 finish is obvious - it means CL qualification with all the money and prestige that brings. Top 3 is better yet because it means you don't have to go through the qualification stage. Beyond that if you're not going to win the title then it really doesn't matter that much whether you finish 2nd or 3rd.
The 'tangible result' of the good run is automatic CL qualification.

The difference is pushing home the advantage, beating the dopers and finishing the PL on a high so we could take that optimism into next season.

Last year we finished the season with 5 wins in a row and the FA Cup win, it didn't seem to do us that much good going into a new season.
We can finish on a high anyway by winning the last 2 league games and the FA Cup.

There IS a lot riding on the Cup, it's the difference between finishing the season on a high with a trophy in our hands or finishing with a disappointment and failure.

Like you, he's happy with qualifying for the CL

No. Again, if we qualify for the CL AND WIN THE FA CUP then I will deem the season a reasonably successful one.
Clearly I (and Wenger) want us to challenge seriously for the title next year.