Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes i would take Pulis over Wenger right now.

I was agreeing with you until i saw that, i think that comment shows a genuine disparity between what i would call the Wengerskeptics. I myself am a realist, i know he is with us until 2017 and there is nothing that will change that, people like myself acknowledge that it is incredibly unlikely that the romantic notion of Wenger going out on a high with one final title win is just unrealistic, but i still say he is no worse than Van Gaal or Pellegrini....both of them are for me absolute dinosaurs who are tactically deficient. But in order to beat the odds rather than hide behind them, we need someone young and fresh who is willing to delegate, take on new ideas and take risks.
There are those who i'm afraid to say you count as, that with Wenger familiarity breeds contempt that they are so desperate for change that almost anyone will do. Although the groundhog season grates (and yes i agree an FA cup doesn't count as marked improvement) the idea that most managers could have kept us in the top four season in season out is disingenuous and false.
Where i agree with you is that Wenger has hit a glass ceiling, he hasn't the ability to make the leap that changes us from top four to perenial title challengers and eventual title winners, football has changed and he hasn't...and he's very much yesterday's man.
Where i don't agree with you is that a mid table manager like Pulis on the back of one or two positive results against Mourinho would have done better, we can do better than Wenger i don't doubt that we can but anyone or anything is not better.

[Globalgunner]

I was agreeing with you until i saw that, i think that comment shows a genuine disparity between what i would call the Wengerskeptics. I myself am a realist, i know he is with us until 2017 and there is nothing that will change that, people like myself acknowledge that it is incredibly unlikely that the romantic notion of Wenger going out on a high with one final title win is just unrealistic, but i still say he is no worse than Van Gaal or Pellegrini....both of them are for me absolute dinosaurs who are tactically deficient. But in order to beat the odds rather than hide behind them, we need someone young and fresh who is willing to delegate, take on new ideas and take risks.
There are those who i'm afraid to say you count as, that with Wenger familiarity breeds contempt that they are so desperate for change that almost anyone will do. Although the groundhog season grates (and yes i agree an FA cup doesn't count as marked improvement) the idea that most managers could have kept us in the top four season in season out is disingenuous and false.
Where i agree with you is that Wenger has hit a glass ceiling, he hasn't the ability to make the leap that changes us from top four to perenial title challengers and eventual title winners, football has changed and he hasn't...and he's very much yesterday's man.
Where i don't agree with you is that a mid table manager like Pulis on the back of one or two positive results against Mourinho would have done better, we can do better than Wenger i don't doubt that we can but anyone or anything is not better.

Good thing i left that comment till last now. maybe the Pulis bit is fanciful, but realistically and analytically. If you examine it, Most teams end up where they're financial clout says they should be. It would take a really crap manager to take us from 4th to 6th or a monumental leap for Spurs or Pool to overtake us. We cannot stay in eternal purgatory waiting for Wenger to relent and say adieu. Is there any guarantee that either he or silent Sam wont agree to let it roll, on beyond 2017. If we only discussed here what is actually possible, we would not discuss anything, At least on these boards we can steer our team beyond the last 16 of the CL and consistently challenging for the league. Wenger should be appreciated for what he has done but he is not the only manager who can do what he has done, or maybe improve us. Even looking at Pulis, he is exactly the kind of manager Arsenal used to hire before Dein went to Japan to select a manager no one had heard of. We may not get the manager we want. Does that mean we stick with what we have in perpetuity.?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think it would take a monumental leap for Liverpool or Spurs to overtake us, both teams have had greater spending power than us from 2003 until 2013 (and Liverpool let's not forget finished above us in 2006, 2007, 2009 and last season)....so i repeat to claim that any old manager could have kept us in the top four is for me profoundly flawed.
The point is that the board should be looking within the next six months to make sure someone is in place by the time Wenger contract runs out (Guardiola agreed to take the reigns at Bayern a year before he joined them). If they don't do this than it confirms that we have more to worry about than Wenger.

[Globalgunner]

I don't think it would take a monumental leap for Liverpool or Spurs to overtake us, both teams have had greater spending power than us from 2003 until 2013 (and Liverpool let's not forget finished above us in 2006, 2007, 2009 and last season)....so i repeat to claim that any old manager could have kept us in the top four is for me profoundly flawed.
The point is that the board should be looking within the next six months to make sure someone is in place by the time Wenger contract runs out (Guardiola agreed to take the reigns at Bayern a year before he joined them). If they don't do this than it confirms that we have more to worry about than Wenger.

There is no basis in your claim that Pool and Spuds have more spending power than us. They may have spent more than us but that is because they each sold an 80m player in recent seasons and why we have £200m in the bank while they still need owners to bankroll them, Spending power is the surfeit of income over expenditure and even in the years 2000 til date we have both clubs comfortably licked. They spent a lot of money trying to overtake us and we spent comparatively little keeping ahead. For this Wenger needs to be applauded, taking the next step however is physically beyond him. There we agree

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know anything about having accquired 200 million accumulatively, we have made a profit each season but that money then gets funneled back into servicing the debts and stadium repayments, day to day costs, players wages etc....and then after all after we had sold a player we usually were in the black.
The stadium naming renegotiation and the new kit sponsorship has brought us an added 80million in revenues a year and that is why we are now in a position to spend.
Liverpool and Spurs have had more to spend despite making less money because they haven't had a stadium to pay for, Liverpool gave up on moving to Stanley Park because they know it would financially cripple them and Spurs are in for a very hard time over the next five-ten years.

[Globalgunner]

No matter how many times it is explained to some people, they prefer the vague notion they have rather than the truth. The stadium debt is no more than £14m a year. It is stated in the yearly accounts and can be accessed easily from the records. £14m non negotiable for I think 30 years. So that is essentially less than 2 Wenger salaries or Diaby, Arteta and Flamini for 1 year, 3 players that had contributed zilch to the club, this year. The stadium has NOT held us back. It seems logical but is not true in fiscal terms.

To help Ive posted the ;ink below from AST
http://arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-...-year-finances.

Our problem is bad negotiation, Contrast our stadium with that of Bayern, who built theirs after us and paid it off within 9 years. They could, because they had favourable terms, could dictate to the bankers rather than the other way round. Simply because they are Bayerrn and we are some pokey little club from north London. While Bayern were paying off their loans early they were winning leagues and CL why because winning gives you greater spending power and clout, expands your fanbase. Contrast that with us, living off the glory of the 98-2004 years. We at Arsenal, we think small and remain small. We believe we couldn't move stadium and win anything and so it transpired.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No matter how many times it is explained to some people, they prefer the vague notion they have rather than the truth. The stadium debt is no more than £14m a year. It is stated in the yearly accounts and can be accessed easily from the records. £14m non negotiable for I think 30 years. So that is essentially less than 2 Wenger salaries or Diaby, Arteta and Flamini for 1 year, 3 players that had contributed zilch to the club, this year. The stadium has NOT held us back. It seems logical but is not true in fiscal terms.

To help Ive posted the ;ink below from AST
http://arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-...-year-finances.

Our problem is bad negotiation, Contrast our stadium with that of Bayern, who built theirs after us and paid it off within 9 years. They could, because they had favourable terms, could dictate to the bankers rather than the other way round. Simply because they are Bayerrn and we are some pokey little club from north London. While Bayern were paying off their loans early they were winning leagues and CL why because winning gives you greater spending power and clout, expands your fanbase. Contrast that with us, living off the glory of the 98-2004 years. We at Arsenal, we think small and remain small. We believe we couldn't move stadium and win anything and so it transpired.

Also helps when you have another team bringing in matchday revenue, and the construction is heavily subsidised by the german government to make it a world cup match venue.

[Master Splinter]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

Depends what kind of purging...if it's purging with fire than i'm all for it. If it's purging in the same way a young girl with bodily dismorphia purges than hmmmm...maybe not

[Master Splinter]

Depends what kind of purging...if it's purging with fire than i'm all for it. If it's purging in the same way a young girl with bodily dismorphia purges than hmmmm...maybe not