Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Globalgunner]

No matter how many times it is explained to some people, they prefer the vague notion they have rather than the truth. The stadium debt is no more than £14m a year. It is stated in the yearly accounts and can be accessed easily from the records. £14m non negotiable for I think 30 years. So that is essentially less than 2 Wenger salaries or Diaby, Arteta and Flamini for 1 year, 3 players that had contributed zilch to the club, this year. The stadium has NOT held us back. It seems logical but is not true in fiscal terms.

To help Ive posted the ;ink below from AST
http://arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-...-year-finances.

Our problem is bad negotiation, Contrast our stadium with that of Bayern, who built theirs after us and paid it off within 9 years. They could, because they had favourable terms, could dictate to the bankers rather than the other way round. Simply because they are Bayerrn and we are some pokey little club from north London. While Bayern were paying off their loans early they were winning leagues and CL why because winning gives you greater spending power and clout, expands your fanbase. Contrast that with us, living off the glory of the 98-2004 years. We at Arsenal, we think small and remain small. We believe we couldn't move stadium and win anything and so it transpired.

[Letters]

We are in a painful existence, if thumpings of 6, 8 and being knocked out by the likes of Monaco are not painful i dont know what is.

Every club will get setbacks and painful results. Again, read Fever Pitch and remind yourself what it used to be like supporting Arsenal back in the day.

The thumpings were embarrassing, granted. We haven't repeated that this year though, happily.
Monaco was a bad one, I've already agreed Wenger's CL record isn't good enough.
But if we win the Cup that's two major trophies in two years. The real pain post 2004 was the constant lack of trophies which we started to put right last year and I hope will continue to this. There are highs and lows in every season, finish this one by retaining the Cup and I don't think I'll regard this as a particularly painful season.
We do need to start seriously competing for the title, I believe we now have a squad which can do so.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You cannot compare our stadium costs with that of Bayern. For starters their stadium only cost €340m and 1860 Munich had a 50% share which Bayern purchased for €11m. The deal also included allowing 1860 to use it in perpetuity.

I'm sure nobody here would have liked to go down that road with our neighbours.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No matter how many times it is explained to some people, they prefer the vague notion they have rather than the truth. The stadium debt is no more than £14m a year. It is stated in the yearly accounts and can be accessed easily from the records. £14m non negotiable for I think 30 years. So that is essentially less than 2 Wenger salaries or Diaby, Arteta and Flamini for 1 year, 3 players that had contributed zilch to the club, this year. The stadium has NOT held us back. It seems logical but is not true in fiscal terms.

To help Ive posted the ;ink below from AST
http://arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-...-year-finances.

Our problem is bad negotiation, Contrast our stadium with that of Bayern, who built theirs after us and paid it off within 9 years. They could, because they had favourable terms, could dictate to the bankers rather than the other way round. Simply because they are Bayerrn and we are some pokey little club from north London. While Bayern were paying off their loans early they were winning leagues and CL why because winning gives you greater spending power and clout, expands your fanbase. Contrast that with us, living off the glory of the 98-2004 years. We at Arsenal, we think small and remain small. We believe we couldn't move stadium and win anything and so it transpired.

Also helps when you have another team bringing in matchday revenue, and the construction is heavily subsidised by the german government to make it a world cup match venue.

[Niall_Quinn]

You have repeatedly and consistently stressed the importance of 2nd place and repeatedly downplayed the FA Cup. So you haven't said it, but you've certainly implied it.

Yes, we've let the "2nd Place Trophy" slip and the "Finishing Above The Gypos Trophy". I'll cancel the open top bus.
Those aren't real trophies! The importance of a top 4 finish is obvious - it means CL qualification with all the money and prestige that brings. Top 3 is better yet because it means you don't have to go through the qualification stage. Beyond that if you're not going to win the title then it really doesn't matter that much whether you finish 2nd or 3rd.
The 'tangible result' of the good run is automatic CL qualification.

Last year we finished the season with 5 wins in a row and the FA Cup win, it didn't seem to do us that much good going into a new season.
We can finish on a high anyway by winning the last 2 league games and the FA Cup.

There IS a lot riding on the Cup, it's the difference between finishing the season on a high with a trophy in our hands or finishing with a disappointment and failure.


No. Again, if we qualify for the CL AND WIN THE FA CUP then I will deem the season a reasonably successful one.
Clearly I (and Wenger) want us to challenge seriously for the title next year.

I can understand why it never occurred to you, but it's not either/ or for me. I wanted both. I prioritise winning, both would be the natural consequence of that. Settling for second best is what prompts the either/ or option. It's hard to argue with somebody who can't understand why it is important to finish above your rivals. I guess if you don't believe that's the case by default then it explains how mediocrity can become acceptable and even commendable. The suggestion of winning is greeted with derision.

It may not matter (much) to an accountant or a well paid manager or overpaid players if the final placing is 2nd or 3rd but it comes as a surprise to learn there are fans out there who can't spot the difference. It's not even that we failed to haul the gypos back, we failed to capitalise on that run of games you view as important by giving up ground. We capitulated. It's a recurring theme under a decade of Wenger. Anyone who says it isn't hasn't been paying the slightest attention.

You are correct, we failed to finish above either the chavs or the gypos last season, a particularly poor Chelsea if you recall. This season we had it in our hands to beat one of them at least. But I guess nobody told the gypos how insignificant playing to the final whistle is. They went and moved 5 points clear of us in the most unnecessary fashion.

More money.
Better players.
Fewer injuries.
A poor city.
A recovering Utd.

Different season. Same shit. These are the facts.

Wenger is unparalleled as a club manager, and demonstrably second tier as a team manager. The record spells this out. The appalling record against the chavs, the embarrassing record against Utd, the pitiful record in the CL. If we want that to ever change then we have to give him a heartfelt thanks for his management of the club but beg him to leave based on his record with the team. It's only the former that has bought him grace with the latter. Any other manager at any other club would be long, long gone.

Qualifying for the CL and winning the FA Cup? We know he can do that. It then becomes a discussion about the club and where we feel we stand in the scheme of things. Is it an achievement to be qualifying for a competition we stand zero chance of winning? Financially, yes. In terms of sport - not at all. Is it an achievement to win a knock out tournament while running behind the league leaders by double digits? Yes, it's an achievement but should it be the limit for a club like ours?

I said at the end of last season give him the second season where he has proper funds and see what he can do. Well he fucked it. So there's the answer. He should go now. He always said he'd leave if he had nothing left to offer. He lied. He won't go and when he fucks it again next season you'll say what you are saying now... next season, next season.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Also helps when you have another team bringing in matchday revenue, and the construction is heavily subsidised by the german government to make it a world cup match venue.

Or that your by far the biggest club in the region and the country so you can hog sponsors and make the cost of stadium naming rights expensive (with Allianz) to help pay for the stadium.

It's a ridiculous comparison tbh.

[Özim]

Every club will get setbacks and painful results. Again, read Fever Pitch and remind yourself what it used to be like supporting Arsenal back in the day.

The thumpings were embarrassing, granted. We haven't repeated that this year though, happily.
Monaco was a bad one, I've already agreed Wenger's CL record isn't good enough.
But if we win the Cup that's two major trophies in two years. The real pain post 2004 was the constant lack of trophies which we started to put right last year and I hope will continue to this. There are highs and lows in every season, finish this one by retaining the Cup and I don't think I'll regard this as a particularly painful season.
We do need to start seriously competing for the title, I believe we now have a squad which can do so.

Funny how the cup has become a "major" trophy now, couple years ago it was viewed it as mickey mouse, how times changes.

It's a trophy no doubt, a major one however, that's an exaggeration.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Used to be a major trophy but like the Uefa cup it's been massively devalued in the last twenty years

[Globalgunner]

Or that your by far the biggest club in the region and the country so you can hog sponsors and make the cost of stadium naming rights expensive (with Allianz) to help pay for the stadium.

It's a ridiculous comparison tbh.

Success breeds success. Bayern Munich make the template of succeeding the template for business. I see no where in the report where government subsidies are included. Do you really think the other teams would have stood for that without going to court.? As ever, make up an alternative reality to substitute for the real one, it helps I guess.

[Globalgunner]

Funny how the cup has become a "major" trophy now, couple years ago it was viewed it as mickey mouse, how times changes.

It's a trophy no doubt, a major one however, that's an exaggeration.

Its a major trophy won by Wigan and Portsmouth recently who were relegated, immediately after. That we have bucked the trend is also an achievement, I guess.