General Football Nonsense

[Mac76]

I think someone who suggests without evidence that England fans were being racist for booing last night as if somehow they didn’t boo Gareth Southgate is probably self hating English yes

And if the accusation upsets you and you find it highly offensive, maybe consider how wise it was essentially accusing me of being a sex offender because I used an expression you disapproved of. Or your snotty post last night (which you seem to have taken down now).

I didn't say that England fans booing was racist (in fact if you're talking about last night's game I didn't even know they had booed until you just wrote it), all I said is that he will face early antagonism from some fans and media because he is German (which is a nationalist, not racist, thing btw) - if you don't think that's true you're living on another planet

I never accused you of being a sex offender i simply pointed out you had a habit of using metaphors relating to sexual deviance on a very regular basis and it's not a wild assertion to say that perhaps meant you had (and i quote) an "unhealthy interest" in such matters - which isn't the same as saying you practice them

And yes I took the post down because it was a bit over the top and I couldn't be bothered with it

[Letters]

You’re doing that thing that Mac does which is to transpose your own opinion and make it a universal one.

Not really - we had this conversation before. I don't remember many serious people saying that England have such a strong squad that we should be sweeping all before us. There was something about us being pre-tournament favourites but that was probably based on excitable England fans betting. I think most people believed us to be contenders, but not strong favourites.

yours comes from a form of “it’s the hope that kills you

Not really, it comes from a disagreement about the strength of England compared with other nations in terms of our squad.
Again, you put Arsenal in the Europa League and we should be winning it, given the quality of opposition.
England aren't head and shoulders above the other sides, we're one of the better ones so a contender, but it's not a complete disgrace that we didn't win it.

But in terms of individual talent, yes I think we were superior and I don’t think it’s controversial.

Cool. Then you should be able to provide lots of articles from the time in which people were saying that - and by "people" I don't mean Barry from FB.

I’m not a jingoist

I know you aren't, but there has definitely been a lot of it about. The whole notion of "it's coming home" - basically saying we own football so of course we should be winning things. Flies in the face of all the available evidence.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You admitted yourself back last year that you don’t really know much about the international scene, so with respect I’m wondering what your basis of comparison is.

I also don’t recall saying that England was so far above everyone else that it should sweep all before it. There’s only one national side I know of capable of that, and it was around before I was born (the Brazil side of 1970)

A reasonable expectation would be that it wouldn’t limp lamely into the final and put on a display you might expect from a mid or lower half table team in a cup final (which actually is an insult to palace who showed far more guile and determination than England did against Spain). Spain of 2008-2012 would be superior to this England team, Germany of 2014, France of 2018 would be as well.

But England was producing some excellent young players in a way that other national sides weren’t so much to the point where a coach with his head screwed on could have won us that tournament.

It’s a bit like seeding in Tennis, Andy Murray was world no 1 8-9 years ago, this was reflective of the funk Nadal and Djokovic were in and that Federer was at the end of his career. He had a narrow window to pick up more than the three grand slams that he did, but ultimately pressure and a recurrent hip injury meant he didn’t take that opportunity.

That I would say is the best comparison I can make in terms of how I viewed and to a degree still do view England

[Letters]

You admitted yourself back last year that you don’t really know much about the international scene, so with respect I’m wondering what your basis of comparison is.

I just don't remember a prevailing mood at the time that we were the best side and therefore should win it.
As I said I think we were made favourites by the bookies but that's like Arsenal being made favourites for the CL after we beat Real Madrid. It's largely based on excited fans betting. If anything the fact we were "favourites" was met with some raised eyebrows.
Most people thought we had a chance - I did - but I never thought we were favourites.
Some of that may be based on "30 years of hurt", admittedly.

A reasonable expectation would be that it wouldn’t limp lamely into the final and put on a display you might expect from a mid or lower half table team in a cup final

I actually think we grew in the tournament. In the group we were admittedly bloody awful but we got better as we went on. The final was disappointing but in my mind - and in most people's mind, I think - we were just beaten by the better side there.

The Andy Murray comparison is interesting and it's plausible these last few tournaments were our best chance in a while. I guess the fact we got to 2 finals and lost to eventual finalists in the World Cup shows we were contenders. I'm just don't by that with a better coach we'd... I've been hearing that shit for decades.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No the prevailing mood was that Southgate was too much of a drag factor, I said France because of the talent they have which I think did exceed ours but Deschamps is awful as head coach…that French side could have cleaned up at every international tournament since 2016.

There was improvement in the Switzerland and Netherlands games but it was from abysmal to poor, and it fluctuated from poor to abysmal throughout the final.

We weren’t much better in Euro 2020, the group stage was painful, the way we were hanging on in the semis against Denmark and the way we completely went in our shells against the Italians in the final. Just overly cautious football.

The only time the team showed a glimpse of its true potential was for a fifteen minute period after Kane’s penalty against the French in the last quarter final, Bellingham and Saka absolutely bamboozled them and they couldn’t cope.

Southgate should have gone after that World Cup. He had got us out of the doldrums which was to be admired but he was incapable of taking us that further step forward. Would we have won Euro 2024 if he had, well a) depends who we brought in and b) nothing is guaranteed but I think we wouldn’t have stunk out the place or been so passive in the final

[Letters]

No the prevailing mood was that Southgate was too much of a drag factor

That was your mood. Can you evidence is was the prevailing one?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think even before the World Cup, there was genuine concern that we weren’t moving forward …especially when we were relegated from the nations league A section.

The results before Euro 2024 were not great either. The papers were cautiously optimistic in keeping with the bookmakers (who certainly don’t base their considerations of odds, on sentiment) but much of the online fan base reflected the view I had that Southgate didn’t know how to get the best out of these players, and in terms of performances Euro 2024 was awful beyond my expectations…the sheer ineptitude of the football.

[Letters]

much of the online fan base reflected the view I had that Southgate didn’t know how to get the best out of these players

I think that's probably true. My point is...twas ever thus.
Every England manager in my lifetime has been hammered by the press after an initial honeymoon period.
Wasn't Robson nearly hounded out after failure in '88 only to oversee a fairly heroic run in Italian '90 (which also contained some blundering through, we needed 2 penalties to beat Cameroon and only beat Belgium with a last gasp Platt goal).

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think that's probably true. My point is...twas ever thus.
Every England manager in my lifetime has been hammered by the press after an initial honeymoon period.
Wasn't Robson nearly hounded out after failure in '88 only to oversee a fairly heroic run in Italian '90 (which also contained some blundering through, we needed 2 penalties to beat Cameroon and only beat Belgium with a last gasp Platt goal).

The difference is the bookies didn’t make us favourites in Italia 90, in fact largely the only parallel was how the media were panning the manager and team during the group stage

The only previous tournament where there was genuine opinion that England could win beyond empty optimism was Euro 96

As I said Euro 2024 odds, weren’t a reflection of what a great side we were, but that we were probably the best overall amongst a lot of other good but not great teams

[McNamara That Ghost...]

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/new...as-head-coach/

Thomas Frank

Always knew he was a cunt.