When will Arteta be sacked by

[Mac76]

"If you want to beat Liverpool or Man City you have to go and get it, you cannot enter a game by 'let's not lose it' "

This

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t know if I fully agree with that, it really depends to what extreme you take that approach. Should you be so committed to a draw that you take zero risk in order to win….no, but equally if you go to these grounds heedless of consequence you’ll get your arse handed to you (a bit like how City got whooped by us in Feb)

Apart from anything else as IBK said, and as even the bald Dutchman admitted both sides were playing for a draw. So whilst we can say this criticism applies to Arteta, why doesn’t it apply to Slot?. Is it because of how vulnerable they are when they don’t have the ball? Well if that’s the case it speaks highly of a glaring weakness in their team that they haven’t addressed.

I think because of Liverpool’s vulnerability we should have tried to go for it. The main problem as I see it, is that we mainly targeted them from set pieces, well that’s not where they are vulnerable. Where they are vulnerable is Van Dijk’s lack of mobility and their full backs pushed up too high which should have given us scope to exploit space.

What I will say for Arteta is that both goals we scored last night did come from exploiting space and direct pace….so although he’s a slow learner, there is the inkling of a learning curve. If his plan is to neutralise teams, and pull the trigger in the second half of games…well again I think teams will adapt to that.

The interesting thing about Arteta is that he clearly doesn’t lack in confidence, his controlling lack of trust is aimed at other people never himself.

[IBK]

I don’t know if I fully agree with that, it really depends to what extreme you take that approach. Should you be so committed to a draw that you take zero risk in order to win….no, but equally if you go to these grounds heedless of consequence you’ll get your arse handed to you (a bit like how City got whooped by us in Feb)

Apart from anything else as IBK said, and as even the bald Dutchman admitted both sides were playing for a draw. So whilst we can say this criticism applies to Arteta, why doesn’t it apply to Slot?. Is it because of how vulnerable they are when they don’t have the ball? Well if that’s the case it speaks highly of a glaring weakness in their team that they haven’t addressed.

I think because of Liverpool’s vulnerability we should have tried to go for it. The main problem as I see it, is that we mainly targeted them from set pieces, well that’s not where they are vulnerable. Where they are vulnerable is Van Dijk’s lack of mobility and their full backs pushed up too high which should have given us scope to exploit space.

What I will say for Arteta is that both goals we scored last night did come from exploiting space and direct pace….so although he’s a slow learner, there is the inkling of a learning curve. If his plan is to neutralise teams, and pull the trigger in the second half of games…well again I think teams will adapt to that.

The interesting thing about Arteta is that he clearly doesn’t lack in confidence, his controlling lack of trust is aimed at other people never himself.

Henry was not saying anything new, nor anything that is not broadly accepted both within and outside Arsenal. It does make me smile, however, when pundits and fans talk about winning the league or the CL as a given, if you spend enough. Resources are a big factor, yes, but they are not the only factor. If spending was the only determinator of success, then the likes of Manure and Sp*rs should have performed a lot better than they have done over recent years.


The very fact that Henry is saying what he says is of itself an acknowledgement that Arteta has the managerial talent potentially to achieve success. And this talent has been shown by what until last season has been clear upwards progression of his teams since he joined the club. For me the question is a more subtle one - does Arteta have what it takes to realise that potential? There's a lot of black and white thinking about Arteta and this season, and this is shown by the jump from 'Arteta must win something this season' to 'Arteta out if he doesn't'.


Don't get me wrong - the potential excuses for Arteta are much diminished by our Summer spending. And our aim should be (and is) to finish champions. But the idea that it is only because or in spite of his tactics that we will/won't win a major trophy is IMO over simplification. And as HCZ observes there are nuances when it comes to evaluating the manager's approach to games that are ignored by most.


We must wait to judge whether the manager is directly at fault if we fall short in our aims again this season. If a trend of control obsession in circumstances where a bit more tactical risk taking is justified continues, then yes the conclusion might well be that Arteta's approach is not the one needed. But if the league or the CL were ultimately to be decided by a point or 2 - or a freak goal scored or conceded - then for me this judgement would be unfair.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Henry was not saying anything new, nor anything that is not broadly accepted both within and outside Arsenal. It does make me smile, however, when pundits and fans talk about winning the league or the CL as a given, if you spend enough. Resources are a big factor, yes, but they are not the only factor. If spending was the only determinator of success, then the likes of Manure and Sp*rs should have performed a lot better than they have done over recent years.


The very fact that Henry is saying what he says is of itself an acknowledgement that Arteta has the managerial talent potentially to achieve success. And this talent has been shown by what until last season has been clear upwards progression of his teams since he joined the club. For me the question is a more subtle one - does Arteta have what it takes to realise that potential? There's a lot of black and white thinking about Arteta and this season, and this is shown by the jump from 'Arteta must win something this season' to 'Arteta out if he doesn't'.


Don't get me wrong - the potential excuses for Arteta are much diminished by our Summer spending. And our aim should be (and is) to finish champions. But the idea that it is only because or in spite of his tactics that we will/won't win a major trophy is IMO over simplification. And as HCZ observes there are nuances when it comes to evaluating the manager's approach to games that are ignored by most.


We must wait to judge whether the manager is directly at fault if we fall short in our aims again this season. If a trend of control obsession in circumstances where a bit more tactical risk taking is justified continues, then yes the conclusion might well be that Arteta's approach is not the one needed. But if the league or the CL were ultimately to be decided by a point or 2 - or a freak goal scored or conceded - then for me this judgement would be unfair.

On the last paragraph (I use this forum completely on a phone so I simply don’t have it in me to do the work required to quote reply the way Letters does, I mean fair play to him it’s a good way of addressing a specific part of an argument but I’m too lazy)

Even then I think it’s dependent. For example if we have a season like Liverpool had in 2021/2022 where you get to the final of every competition you play in and you lose only twice in the league and still fall two points short of the winner, then yeah I absolutely agree you can bemoan dropping points in one particular game but the fact is it’s more about the other team than your own deficiencies.

If the team finishes on say 84 points like Liverpool did last season and we finished on 83 then I’m less inclined to be sympathetic.

[IBK]

On the last paragraph (I use this forum completely on a phone so I simply don’t have it in me to do the work required to quote reply the way Letters does, I mean fair play to him it’s a good way of addressing a specific part of an argument but I’m too lazy)

Even then I think it’s dependent. For example if we have a season like Liverpool had in 2021/2022 where you get to the final of every competition you play in and you lose only twice in the league and still fall two points short of the winner, then yeah I absolutely agree you can bemoan dropping points in one particular game but the fact is it’s more about the other team than your own deficiencies.

If the team finishes on say 84 points like Liverpool did last season and we finished on 83 then I’m less inclined to be sympathetic.

Yep - I agree with that.

[Letters]

Henry was not saying anything new, nor anything that is not broadly accepted both within and outside Arsenal.

Correct. I think this is the position of most Arsenal fans who don't already want Arteta.
HCZ has talked about an Arteta Cult which is like how people were accused of "Wenger Knows Best". It's a bit of a straw man, I'm not sure anyone held that opinion about Wenger, I'm damn sure no-one holds it about Arteta now.

My general attitude is this is Arteta's last chance. Win a big trophy (I don't count the FA Cup) or get lost.
But I accept that's a little simplistic. As HCZ has said, if we get 95 points and Liverpool get 96 (we won't, and they won't), then like 2 seasons ago I don't think we could have reasonably asked much more. If Liverpool are well under 90 points and we are still not above them then some serious questions have to be asked. Surely the board will be asking those questions given the way they've backed Arteta.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Correct. I think this is the position of most Arsenal fans who don't already want Arteta.
HCZ has talked about an Arteta Cult which is like how people were accused of "Wenger Knows Best". It's a bit of a straw man, I'm not sure anyone held that opinion about Wenger, I'm damn sure no-one holds it about Arteta now.

My general attitude is this is Arteta's last chance. Win a big trophy (I don't count the FA Cup) or get lost.
But I accept that's a little simplistic. As HCZ has said, if we get 95 points and Liverpool get 96 (we won't, and they won't), then like 2 seasons ago I don't think we could have reasonably asked much more. If Liverpool are well under 90 points and we are still not above them then some serious questions have to be asked. Surely the board will be asking those questions given the way they've backed Arteta.

I can imagine you believe this only because you don’t go on Twitter

[Letters]

I can imagine you believe this only because you don’t go on Twitter

I don't. But Twitter being full of shit is not news to me.
Obviously pretty much every fringe view exists, and Twitter is a place where fringe views are often expressed.
But that doesn't mean it's anything other than a fringe and uncommon view.
Most people I talk to either want Arteta out already or see this season as very much his last chance (with the caveats we've both articulated above).
I believe Trump is in effect a cult leader but his cult is alarmingly big in number. That isn't true with Arteta.

[IBK]

I can imagine you believe this only because you don’t go on Twitter

Maybe - but there are definitely not the extremes of opinion re Arteta amongst match going Gooners than there are online.

[IBK]

Correct. I think this is the position of most Arsenal fans who don't already want Arteta.
HCZ has talked about an Arteta Cult which is like how people were accused of "Wenger Knows Best". It's a bit of a straw man, I'm not sure anyone held that opinion about Wenger, I'm damn sure no-one holds it about Arteta now.

My general attitude is this is Arteta's last chance. Win a big trophy (I don't count the FA Cup) or get lost.
But I accept that's a little simplistic. As HCZ has said, if we get 95 points and Liverpool get 96 (we won't, and they won't), then like 2 seasons ago I don't think we could have reasonably asked much more. If Liverpool are well under 90 points and we are still not above them then some serious questions have to be asked. Surely the board will be asking those questions given the way they've backed Arteta.

Agreed. But I don't think the board will be as ready to sack Arteta as some may hope. From their perspective unless he truly shits the bed seeking an alternative manager is a serious risk.