User Tag List

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 54

Thread: Has Wenger faiiled to develop our young players?

  1. #31
    Administrator Letters's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    40,428
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Loads of people were saying nice things about Walcott when we signed him. I remember this passage from Fever Pitch talking about Gus Caesar and gives some thoughts about young players making it, or not:

    At school he must have been much, much better than his peers, so he gets picked for the school team, and then some representative side, South London Boys or what have you; and he's still better than anyone else in the team, by miles, so the scouts come to watch, and he's offered an apprenticeship not with Fulham or Brentford or even West Ham but with the mighty Arsenal. And it's still not over, even then, because if you look at any First Division youth team of five years ago you won't recognize most of the names, because most of them have disappeared. (Here's the Arsenal youth team of April 1987, from a randomly plucked programme: Miller, Hannigan, McGregor, Hillier, Scully, Carstairs, Connelly, Rivero, Cagigao, S. Ball, Esqulant. Of those, only Hillier has come through, although Miller is still with us as a highly rated reserve goalkeeper; Scully is still playing professional football somewhere, though not for Arsenal or any other First Division team. The rest have gone, and gone from a club famous for giving its own players a fair crack.)
    But Gus survives, and goes on to play for the reserves. And suddenly, it's all on for him: Don Howe is in trouble, and flooding the first team with young players: Niall Quinn, Hayes, Rocastle, Adams, Martin Keown. And when Viv Anderson is suspended over Christmas 1985 Gus makes his debut as part of a back four that's kept a clean sheet away at Manchester United.
    Howe gets the sack, and George Graham keeps him on, and he's used as a sub in quite a few games over George's first season, so things are still going well for him-- not as well as they are for Rocky and Hayes and Adams and Quinn, but then these players are having an exceptional first full season, and when the squad for the England Under-21s is announced it's full of Arsenal players, and Gus Caesar is one of them. The England selectors, like the Arsenal fans, are beginning to trust Arsenal's youth policy implicitly, and Gus gets a call-up even though he isn't in the first team regularly. But never mind why, he's in, he's recognised as one of the best twenty or so young players in the whole country.
    Now at this point Gus could be forgiven for relaxing his guard a little. He's young, he's got talent, he's committed to the life he's picked, and at least some of the self-doubt that plagues everyone with long-shot dreams must have vanished by now. At this stage you have to rely on the judgment of others (I was relying on the judgments of friends and agents and anyone I could find who would read my stuff and tell me it was OK); and when those others include two Arsenal managers and an England coach then you probably reckon that there isn't much to worry about.
    But as it turns out, they are all wrong. So far he has leaped over every hurdle in his path comfortably, but even at this late stage it is possible to be tripped up. Probably the first time we notice that things aren't right is in January 1987, in that first-leg semi-final against Tottenham: Caesar is painfully, obviously, out of his depth against those Spurs forwards. In truth he looks like a rabbit caught in headlights, frozen to the spot until Waddle or Allen or somebody runs him over, and then he starts to thrash about, horribly and pitifully, and finally George and Theo Foley put him out of his misery by substituting him. He doesn't get another chance for a while. The next time I remember him turning out is against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge in a 1-1 draw, a week or two before the Luton final, but again there is a moment in the first half where Dixon runs at him, turns him one way, then the other, then back again, like your dad used to do to you when you were a really little kid in the back garden, and eventually strolls past him and puts the ball just the wrong side of the post. We knew that there was going to be trouble at Wembley, when O'Leary was out injured and Gus was the only candidate to replace him. Caesar leaves it late, but when the ball is knocked into the box seven minutes from time, he mis-kicks so violently that he falls over; at this point he looks like somebody off the street who has won a competition to appear as a centre-half in a Wembley final, and not like a professional footballer at all, and in the ensuing chaos Danny Wilson stoops to head the ball over the line for Luton's equalising goal.
    That's it. End of story. He's at the club for another three or four years, but he's very much the last resort centre-back, and he must have known, when George bought Bould and then Linighan and then Pates, with Adams and O'Leary already at the club, that he didn't have much of a future-- he was the sixth in line for two positions. He was given a free transfer at the end of the 90/91 season, to Cambridge United; but within another couple of months they let him go too, to Bristol City, and a couple of months after that Bristol City let him go to Airdrie. To get where he did, Gus Caesar clearly had more talent than nearly everyone of his generation (the rest of us can only dream about having his kind of skill) and it still wasn't quite enough.

  2. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    574
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory View Post
    Why is a question nonsense? It was our intention to create a system similar to what Ajax and Barca had from our youth system and we dedicated time and money to it. Poaching some of the best players from across the globe to try and create that system. Is it fair to say we failed? I didn't say it was easy to do. It was a question. Also, I wonder why these players aren't graduating to the first team.

    Gibbs isn't a first teamer anymore and has lost his place to Monreal. Wilshere is always injured but would probably struggle to get into the first team too. Also, don't assume to know people's position on a player. That's nonsense. A few people don't rate Wilshere that highly. I don't.

    We don't need to understand how difficult it is to produce a top player or solid first team player. I'm sure it is and I'm sure the Arsenal camp know it's difficult but we set ourselevs a task of producing a title winning team from that difficult system and it hasn't happened. Why is the question.
    I will say it one more time, when is the last time Ajax produced a world class player? I honestly think it was Seedorf, but I may be wrong. Please tell me when. they are the standards we are holding ourselves too. They themselves have not been able to produce a world class talent since. That should show you this is not easy.

    Lets look at Barcelona. they implemented the Ajax system in the late 80s when Cruyff came back to the club. Xavi first came up through that system, then Iniesta, then Busquets and Cesc although they finished their schooling elsewhere. Finally Messi. It took over 20 years for Barcelona to find this group.

    How about United? Who is the last world class player they have produced through their academy? Becks?

    I mention this because this isnt a magic "flick the switch" thing. It doesnt just happen, and Arsenal play in London as well. To complain that Arsenal havent produced an all time cohort of players through their academy is a nonsensical question. It doesn't happen. Its one thing if we are seeing a bunch of other clubs produce players and Arsenal are lacking, but that is not the case. It just doesnt happen, and its very rare.

    No, what Arsenal does is attempt to produce a group of all time player but at the very least sell the players for high costs down the league if it does not work for them. Its effing difficult to just produce one first teamer. Arsenal have produced 2 English internationals in Gibbs and Wilshere and thats not enough for you even though no other team in the top half can say that. (minus Southampton)

    Its akin asking "why hasnt Arsenal produced a Messi?"

    And I say this even though I question Arsenal's academy and felt it was overrated for a while and felt Wenger is overrated in his youth approach. Wenger is a finishing school type, but I have never seen any example of him producing elite players through his academy. When I say overrated, I mean how the media sees it and how Wenger likes to sell himself. In truth, he is doing exactly what he is supposed to do with the academy.

    but we set ourselevs a task of producing a title winning team from that difficult system and it hasn't happened.
    Has Wenger or anyone at the club ever said this
    Last edited by mastermind84; 20-01-2016 at 04:29 AM.

  3. #33
    Member Power n Glory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    14,195
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I will say it one more time, when is the last time Ajax produced a world class player? I honestly think it was Seedorf, but I may be wrong. Please tell me when. they are the standards we are holding ourselves too. They themselves have not been able to produce a world class talent since. That should show you this is not easy.
    Yes, you are wrong.

    Suarez? Ibrahimovic? But that may be cheating because they arrived around 19/20 and they're the young import players that haven't come from the academy.

    How about Wesley Sneijder? De Jong? Van der Wiel?

    Aren't a couple of Spurs players Ajax boys? Van Vaart and Eriksen? If we're going to talk about international players we can throw Blind in their if we're talking Gibbs and Wilshere. Throw Vermaelen in their too.

    I'm not saying it's a magical flick of the switch. I'm just wondering why and how we dedicated so much time to come up with nothing. Ajax are committed to producing Dutch players from their academy, so they are slightly restricted in what they can do. But if they do what we have done and import young players from an early age before their 20s, you can see they had two of the best strikers in the world at their club early. We attempt to do the same but nothing comes of players like Vela and Denilson. I'm not even asking why we haven't produced a Messi. I'd be happy if we produced players that Premiership level quality and not Championship. Plenty of other Ajax players I could mention.

  4. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    16,548
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind84 View Post
    I will say it one more time, when is the last time Ajax produced a world class player? I honestly think it was Seedorf, but I may be wrong. Please tell me when. they are the standards we are holding ourselves too. They themselves have not been able to produce a world class talent since. That should show you this is not easy.

    Lets look at Barcelona. they implemented the Ajax system in the late 80s when Cruyff came back to the club. Xavi first came up through that system, then Iniesta, then Busquets and Cesc although they finished their schooling elsewhere. Finally Messi. It took over 20 years for Barcelona to find this group.

    How about United? Who is the last world class player they have produced through their academy? Becks?

    I mention this because this isnt a magic "flick the switch" thing. It doesnt just happen, and Arsenal play in London as well. To complain that Arsenal havent produced an all time cohort of players through their academy is a nonsensical question. It doesn't happen. Its one thing if we are seeing a bunch of other clubs produce players and Arsenal are lacking, but that is not the case. It just doesnt happen, and its very rare.

    No, what Arsenal does is attempt to produce a group of all time player but at the very least sell the players for high costs down the league if it does not work for them. Its effing difficult to just produce one first teamer. Arsenal have produced 2 English internationals in Gibbs and Wilshere and thats not enough for you even though no other team in the top half can say that. (minus Southampton)

    Its akin asking "why hasnt Arsenal produced a Messi?"

    And I say this even though I question Arsenal's academy and felt it was overrated for a while and felt Wenger is overrated in his youth approach. Wenger is a finishing school type, but I have never seen any example of him producing elite players through his academy. When I say overrated, I mean how the media sees it and how Wenger likes to sell himself. In truth, he is doing exactly what he is supposed to do with the academy.


    Has Wenger or anyone at the club ever said this
    Youu're using Gibbs and Wilshere as examples to support the fact we've done ok, please.....one is a crock who's not even a particularly good full back (playing for England means nothing these days, nobodies get picked) and the other is another crock who has been overrated from the day he showed up and has done nothing to justify that hype.

  5. #35
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    16,548
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory View Post
    Yes, you are wrong.

    Suarez? Ibrahimovic? But that may be cheating because they arrived around 19/20 and they're the young import players that haven't come from the academy.

    How about Wesley Sneijder? De Jong? Van der Wiel?

    Aren't a couple of Spurs players Ajax boys? Van Vaart and Eriksen? If we're going to talk about international players we can throw Blind in their if we're talking Gibbs and Wilshere. Throw Vermaelen in their too.

    I'm not saying it's a magical flick of the switch. I'm just wondering why and how we dedicated so much time to come up with nothing. Ajax are committed to producing Dutch players from their academy, so they are slightly restricted in what they can do. But if they do what we have done and import young players from an early age before their 20s, you can see they had two of the best strikers in the world at their club early. We attempt to do the same but nothing comes of players like Vela and Denilson. I'm not even asking why we haven't produced a Messi. I'd be happy if we produced players that Premiership level quality and not Championship. Plenty of other Ajax players I could mention.
    Ajax have produced a stream of very good young players since the 90's that's a fact, to this day they still produce some top talent who move on and become top class, to claim otherwise it totally ridiculous.

    As for Barca, there's a few other players like Pique, Pedro (you could argue Bellerin) and a few others, but the fact is they also have stacks of money and therefore buy in a lot of top stars thus limiting to some extent the route to the 1st team for young players, we don't have that issue as we've long focussed on young players and allowing them to feature in the 1st team.
    Last edited by Özim; 20-01-2016 at 09:51 AM.

  6. #36
    Member Power n Glory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    14,195
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Özim View Post
    Ajax have produced a stream of very good young players since the 90's that's a fact, to this day they still produce some top talent who move on and become top class, to claim otherwise it totally ridiculous.

    As for Barca, there's a few other players like Pique, Pedro (you could argue Bellerin) and a few others, but the fact is they also have stacks of money and therefore buy in a lot of top stars thus limiting to some extent the route to the 1st team for young players, we don't have that issue as we've long focussed on young players and allowing them to feature in the 1st team.
    It's funny because I was arguing with this same guy about the type of strikers we sign and I questioned why we never signed Suarez from Ajax before Liverpool. Masterminds excuse was the Dutch league and Ajax were shit.

    We can extend that further to questioning why is it that Ajax were able to sign Ibrahimovic and Saurez as young players? Did our scouts miss them or not see what they were capable of? We had Ibra here on trail. How comes we end up signing young players that turn out to be so underwhelming? It's not as if we weren't looking for the next big stars at that time. We were poaching the best players from academies across the globe. Taking advantage of 16 year olds turning professional. It's hard to understand why we've been so unlucky. I can understand not producing many talented English local players but we've been poaching the supposedly best players from Spain, Germany, South and Central America, France...we've had scout everywhere so something has gone wrong or we've got some serious bad luck.

    Most of the other top teams don't give young players a chance like we do. Mastermind mentions Man Utd but forgets they had Pique and Pogba signed up as young players but never gave them an opportunity. We don't do that. We give our young players chances. Well, most of them. We've got so many, guys like Coquelin and Campbell are discovered late and on the verge of leaving before getting a chance.

  7. #37
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    187
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think the answer to the question is pretty clear. The answer is a resounding yes. He has failed to teach players the basics of their respective roles.

    He is great at improving players who have already learned their trade i.e. the basis of their roles. So expect good things from Elneny, not so much from most of our British core. I actually like Ox, however, with not many experienced heads in the centre of midfield, he may not get the education he truly needs. Santi can help him out but you can't teach the technique that Santi possesses. Nor the ability to work with either foot, that'll come with time, however, how long will the fans bare with someone like Ox?

    I think if Pep was to come in, we would see the foundations of our players being built so they wouldn't just be good players on the surface only.
    Last edited by Static; 20-01-2016 at 10:27 AM.

  8. #38
    Member Power n Glory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    14,195
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/walc...-deadly-wenger

    Walcott has become deadly - Wenger

    Arsene Wenger feels Theo Walcott has become a deadly attacker since joining Arsenal from Southampton in 2006.

    Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger believes Theo Walcott has developed into a lethal finisher during his 10 years at the club.

    The 26-year-old joined from Southampton in January 2006 and Wenger has been impressed with the England international's development.

    "Theo is very intelligent. He always had pace and his movement off the ball was always perfect. I think he is much more conscious of teamwork and he has improved as well in his finishing," Wenger told Arsenal's official website.

    "He is absolutely deadly compared to 10 years ago. He needed many chances to score a goal and he can finish very well. His final ball and his technique are much better.

    "Ten years here, that shows as well that he loves Arsenal and I'm convinced he will give us much more in the next five years than the last five because he is a player who is always moving forward and trying to do better. He has a very positive attitude.

    "A player like him is very difficult to find and Theo's movement off the ball and intelligence is really his brand and [are part of his] characteristics."

    Walcott has netted three goals in 16 Premier League appearances in 2015-16.
    I'm a supporter of Walcott and think he has potential but I don't think he has blossomed here at all. Is he more deadly? So it's taken us 10 years to get him to improve his finishing? It's still not at a consistent standard that silences his critics so I'm not sure about that. If he's always had his pace and intelligent movement, what about everything else? He's regressed when it comes to dribbling, passing and assists. Since Wenger's had him studying Ljungberg he's stopped dribbling and coming deep to build up play, take on his man...I'm really not convinced.

    I've always maintained we should have trained him as a striker but that opportunity is fading fast.

  9. #39
    MOe Marc Overmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    32,238
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's quite something how little he has kicked on in 10 years.

  10. #40
    Member Power n Glory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    14,195
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I really don't know what Wenger is talking about in regards to teamwork. His pass attempt and completion stats are quite bad. I don't think he's improved in that areas at all. 69% pass completion 18/26 against Stoke. That's awful.

    Campbell in comparison - 85% 35/41.

    Theo hardly touches the ball on the wing these days and we'll be lucky if he completes 20 passes in a game.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •