Has Wenger faiiled to develop our young players?

[Globalgunner]

It's funny because I was arguing with this same guy about the type of strikers we sign and I questioned why we never signed Suarez from Ajax before Liverpool. Masterminds excuse was the Dutch league and Ajax were shit.

We can extend that further to questioning why is it that Ajax were able to sign Ibrahimovic and Saurez as young players? Did our scouts miss them or not see what they were capable of? We had Ibra here on trail. How comes we end up signing young players that turn out to be so underwhelming? It's not as if we weren't looking for the next big stars at that time. We were poaching the best players from academies across the globe. Taking advantage of 16 year olds turning professional. It's hard to understand why we've been so unlucky. I can understand not producing many talented English local players but we've been poaching the supposedly best players from Spain, Germany, South and Central America, France...we've had scout everywhere so something has gone wrong or we've got some serious bad luck.

Most of the other top teams don't give young players a chance like we do. Mastermind mentions Man Utd but forgets they had Pique and Pogba signed up as young players but never gave them an opportunity. We don't do that. We give our young players chances. Well, most of them. We've got so many, guys like Coquelin and Campbell are discovered late and on the verge of leaving before getting a chance.

It is a matter of record that we tried unsuccessfully to sign Ibra even before he went to Ajax. Something along the lines of "Ibrahimovic does not do trials" and Suarez. Well Wenger was still besotted with Chamak at the time so had no eyes for Suarez. when he finally saw the light he offered £1 above the release clause. Pool pretended it did not exist. I blame Suarez` agent. He must be an illiterate not to know what was in the agreement his player recently signed.

[mastermind84]

Yes, you are wrong.

Suarez? Ibrahimovic? But that may be cheating because they arrived around 19/20 and they're the young import players that haven't come from the academy.

so I feel you are changing things.

For one, Ibra and Suarez were not Ajax products. I think Zlatan arrived at 20, and Suarez was either 20 or 21.

You were talking about teenagers or even academy boys.

Saying that, Zlatan and Suarez went to a finishing school for Ajax.

You were asking for Arsenal to do something along the lines of Ajax '95, and the United class of 1992 and Barcelona where those guys were wholly home grown.

How about Wesley Sneijder? De Jong? Van der Wiel?

Sneijder is the only academy boy that was a top player,but his world class level was for a season or two. van Der Wiel and De Jong were never at that level.

Aren't a couple of Spurs players Ajax boys? Van Vaart and Eriksen? If we're going to talk about international players we can throw Blind in their if we're talking Gibbs and Wilshere. Throw Vermaelen in their too.

none of these guys are world class but they were internationals, and Vermaelen is a damn bum. Eriksen came to Ajax at 18.

Also, The point I conteseted, and what you have now moved the goal posts on, is that its hard as hell to create something like the class of 1992 for UNited, Ajax's 1995 Champions League winners, and the Iniesta/Xav/Messi generation for Barcelona. THAT is difficult. If you wanna just mention young players being at Arsenal and being successful, then Ramsey, Wilshere, even Wojeich are all great examples. It seems your argument is all over the place and not focused.

Ajax are committed to producing Dutch players from their academy, so they are slightly restricted in what they can do. But if they do what we have done and import young players from an early age before their 20s, you can see they had two of the best strikers in the world at their club early. We attempt to do the same but nothing comes of players like Vela and Denilson.

this is why your argument is all over the place. You have no focus. You named about 3 or 4 players that "ajax produced" that were not Dutch.

As for the later half, you named those two while dismissing Theo, Ramsey, Coquelin (who was by luck, but he did go through Arsenal), and Bellerin. Its a nonsense argument.

Even using Vela, we signed him for like 500K and got about 11 million for him. He could not have been that bad, no?

denilson was a player but he lost his confidence.

Youu're using Gibbs and Wilshere as examples to support the fact we've done ok, please.....one is a crock who's not even a particularly good full back (playing for England means nothing these days, nobodies get picked) and the other is another crock who has been overrated from the day he showed up and has done nothing to justify that hype.

great, now what has chelsea done? or liverpool?

It's funny because I was arguing with this same guy about the type of strikers we sign and I questioned why we never signed Suarez from Ajax before Liverpool. Masterminds excuse was the Dutch league and Ajax were shit.

We can extend that further to questioning why is it that Ajax were able to sign Ibrahimovic and Saurez as young players? Did our scouts miss them or not see what they were capable of? We had Ibra here on trail. How comes we end up signing young players that turn out to be so underwhelming? It's not as if we weren't looking for the next big stars at that time. We were poaching the best players from academies across the globe. Taking advantage of 16 year olds turning professional. It's hard to understand why we've been so unlucky. I can understand not producing many talented English local players but we've been poaching the supposedly best players from Spain, Germany, South and Central America, France...we've had scout everywhere so something has gone wrong or we've got some serious bad luck.

Most of the other top teams don't give young players a chance like we do. Mastermind mentions Man Utd but forgets they had Pique and Pogba signed up as young players but never gave them an opportunity. We don't do that. We give our young players chances. Well, most of them. We've got so many, guys like Coquelin and Campbell are discovered late and on the verge of leaving before getting a chance.

I said the Dutch league is shit, tbf. That may have colored the view on Suarez.

Why mention Zlatan? We had him come to the club and could not agree to terms. You act like no effort was made or the club never knew he existed.


and mentioning Pogba and Pique muddles your bad argument even more because you dont acknowledge that we signed Fabregas, ffs.

[mastermind84]

Ajax have produced a stream of very good young players since the 90's that's a fact, to this day they still produce some top talent who move on and become top class, to claim otherwise it totally ridiculous.

the only genuine top class player they've produced in 20 years was fucking Sneijder. This is just not true. But they do produce a lot of players in top leagues. They could be at bottom feeding clubs, but they still do export a large number.

[selassie]

the only genuine top class player they've produced in 20 years was fucking Sneijder. This is just not true. But they do produce a lot of players in top leagues. They could be at bottom feeding clubs, but they still do export a large number.

They may have been mentioned already but Van Der Vaart, Suarez & Eriksen were all developed at Ajax, Eriksen was there from the age of 18, Saurez 20, Van Der Vaart graduated through their youth system.

[mastermind84]

They may have been mentioned already but Van Der Vaart, Suarez & Eriksen were all developed at Ajax, Eriksen was there from the age of 18, Saurez 20, Van Der Vaart graduated through their youth system.

I asked for world class.

van der vaart and eriksen are not and never were world class players. Sneijder is the only one that academy produced since Seedorf.

Suarez came there at 20. Thats cool, but no one wants to give Arsenal credit for Fabregas who came at 14 or 15 and ended up world class. We are looking Bellerin follow that trajectory now. Ramsey had a world class season, and may have a £60 million bid for him this summer from Barcelona.

The point I am making is that power-n-glory's arguments on what connotes a youth player are all over the place and not focused. How can you give Ajax credit for Suarez (who was signed from Groningen in the Eredivisie at age 20) but then not give Arsenal credit for Fabregas, Ramsey, and a few other players. It makes no sense.

And the original argument from Power N Glory is that he wanted Arsenal to replicate something like Ajax 95, the current Barcelona, or United's class of 1992. I just said its effing hard to do using those clubs as an example because they havent been able to replicate it themselves.

[Niall_Quinn]

None of the last few pages was what I was talking about. I was saying Wenger is ruining all his good work with his stupid, fucked up tactics. He's not utilising his players and their strengths, he's trying to get them to do anything bar the things they excel at.

Take for example, Theo Walcott. Does it take a genius to figure out the one, and only one, way he can be effective on a football pitch? So why play him when the game plan is to play to exactly the reverse of his strengths?

Ox in central midfield. FFS, what's that all about?

[Power n Glory]

I asked for world class.

van der vaart and eriksen are not and never were world class players. Sneijder is the only one that academy produced since Seedorf.

Suarez came there at 20. Thats cool, but no one wants to give Arsenal credit for Fabregas who came at 14 or 15 and ended up world class. We are looking Bellerin follow that trajectory now. Ramsey had a world class season, and may have a £60 million bid for him this summer from Barcelona.

The point I am making is that power-n-glory's arguments on what connotes a youth player are all over the place and not focused. How can you give Ajax credit for Suarez (who was signed from Groningen in the Eredivisie at age 20) but then not give Arsenal credit for Fabregas, Ramsey, and a few other players. It makes no sense.

And the original argument from Power N Glory is that he wanted Arsenal to replicate something like Ajax 95, the current Barcelona, or United's class of 1992. I just said its effing hard to do using those clubs as an example because they havent been able to replicate it themselves.

You're the only one asking for world class. You're framing the whole argument around something that was never said.

Putting aside developing a great individual player, I also question why we never had a class that graduated from the ranks and went into the first team to form a strong unit. The vision was taken from Ajax and some of the players that grew up playing together in the academy and eventually made it to the first team. That team with the De Boar brothers, Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf, Van der Sar, etc. We've that youth graduation system at Barca and even United's treble team with Beckham, Scholes and the Neville brothers. How comes we end up with the Hoyte brothers instead? How comes the guys that came up under Bould are looking like they won't even make it into the first team

It's worth reading again and I'll elaborate. I'm not talking about individual brilliance, I'm talking about a group of young players that came up together that formed a solid unit. A group that embodied the ethos and philosophy of the Wenger playing style. The fact that I mention the Neville brothers should be a big enough clue. They're not world class. Same goes for Nicky Butt but they knew how Ferguson wanted them to play and approach games. I suspect it was the same for Ajax, they had that total football philosophy drilled into them and at Barca they had tika taka drilled in. I question what was going on at Arsenal for that not to happen. Why we never had a group of players that came through to play exactly how we liked? Or is it a case of the system and philosophy we're drilling into these players is flawed?

Putting aside success levels with Ajax for a minute, they still have a system where they produce players good enough for their first team and even get a crack at International level. There is a sense of progression or graduation should I say. Our players don't make it into the first team. Most don't even make it at Premier League standard. They end up in the Championship division. Turn your nose up at Van der Vart, Van der Wiel, De Jong, Eriksen all you want. They are still playing at a higher level than the majority of our young players. Include Heitinga, Pienaar in that bracket. They are also internationals players and they should be included if you're going to clap about Wilshere and Gibbs. We'll see what Wilshere is like when he gets back, but like Gibbs he may struggle to get into the first team and that shouldn't be the case. For years Wenger would often saying not wanting to 'kill' such and such player with a more established signing but he eventually ends up doing it because they're not good enough and get shipped out.

Also, to clarify, I'm not restricting this to just academy players because we haven't really produced many pure players like that. Theo, Cesc, Ramsey, Ox, Denilson, Bendy...we brought them in young but from other academies. Suarez and Ibra are the equivalent for Ajax although slightly older at 20. Again, I still don't know how our scouts missed signing those guys but wasted years on other players.

I've acknowledged Cesc, Ramsey, Coquelin and Walcott in other posts. Short version..Cesc has defensive flaws in his game we should ironed out of him when young. Ramsey and Walcott are the same. Coquelin was almost sold so I question what we're looking for when it comes to these players. Time will tell with Bellerin and it's not worth mentioning Vela because he hardly played for us. Played more games out on loan for other teams.

great, now what has chelsea done? or liverpool?

and mentioning Pogba and Pique muddles your bad argument even more because you dont acknowledge that we signed Fabregas, ffs.

Also, I mention Pogba and Pique to show how clubs like Man Utd weren't that dedicated to developing young players at that time. They were spending money so those players were missed. So it's senseless mentioning what our rivals, such as Liverpool, Chelsea and City do because they have a completely different model to us. They didn't dedicate 10 years to finding and producing quality young players to play in their first team. I like Cesc Fabregas, but again, you'll have to read my previous post about his flaws. Some posters wouldn't take him back and rate Ozil and Cazorla more than him.But that's another discussion. I still rate him and think he's one of the best we've produced but there are some flaws in his game and I see the same flaw and pattern in other players.

[mastermind84]

I didnt turn my nose up at them. I posted a graphic showing Ajax has produced a bunch of players. But even them being the gold standard, they have not produced great players as much as you may think. Anyway, I just contend with you dismissing what Arsenal has done. Ajax produce players that get a crack at their national team. I post Kieran Gibbs and its dismissed as "England gives everyone caps."

Arsenal didnt ignore Zlatan. He was at our training ground. There is a picture with him in an Arsenal shirt. Just stop mentioning that. We couldnt close the deal. There was no mention of a trial (Wenger and Zlatan both say this was made up) but he didnt end up here. It sucks, but that was 15 years ago.

You started the conversation off by saying we havent replicated three of the most successful academy/collection of youth players that have ever existed.

Ferguson always focused on getting youth players through as well. Thats always been a United trait. I think they had a 50-60 year stretch of playing at least one academy product that ended sometime during van Gaal's reign.

Pique has a lot of flaws too that are hidden in the Barcelona system. I am not convinced he becomes the defender he is now at United. Pogba was a miss.

I would take Santi and Mesut over Cesc because they fit this group more than Cesc would. But Ozil would have been amazing with Cesc in 2008.


Its really hard to do that. AS we see, English clubs are not doing well at it because English players are by and large not that good. In the English context, Arsenal are right behind United at that. I think the club can do better as well, but I wont complain about them not having their own version of Rinus Micheals' Ajax.

[Power n Glory]

What do you think the academy was set up for? Hearing Wenger praise his young players so often and talk them up in the press about their quality, what do you think the end game is? What do you think we're aiming for? Seeing how he's a fan of the Dutch total football system and Ajax, producing our own talent, a self sustaining model yet with our eyes on being one the best clubs in Europe, do you not think he's aiming to have one of the best academies in football? Are we out of line comparing it to the most successful when that's the obvious aim? I don't know why we've invested so heavily in it if it's not the ultimate goal. I never said it was easy to produce players either. Just why we've produced so little and why so many of our players have similar flaws in their game.

Also, it's impossible to produce great players all year round but we're hardly producing first team players period. It's why we've had a shake up with our youth management and there are still complaints coming out of the camp about what we're producing.

[mastermind84]

What do you think the academy was set up for? Hearing Wenger praise his young players so often and talk them up in the press about their quality, what do you think the end game is? What do you think we're aiming for? Seeing how he's a fan of the Dutch total football system and Ajax, producing our own talent, a self sustaining model yet with our eyes on being one the best clubs in Europe, do you not think he's aiming to have one of the best academies in football? Are we out of line comparing it to the most successful when that's the obvious aim? I don't know why we've invested so heavily in it if it's not the ultimate goal. I never said it was easy to produce players either. Just why we've produced so little and why so many of our players have similar flaws in their game.

Also, it's impossible to produce great players all year round but we're hardly producing first team players period. It's why we've had a shake up with our youth management and there are still complaints coming out of the camp about what we're producing.

Wenger blows smoke up the asses of all his players. I think we fans take him too serious.

There is nothing wrong with comparing the academy to the successful ones, but when you say "why haven't we done that," you are asking an impossible question.