Match Reaction - Arsenal 1-2 Watford - Wenger Out

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You bastard. I did all the set up graft on that and was looking forward to the punch line.

Thanks. You're welcome.

You showed plenty of spirit and desire, but you typed a little bit with the handbrake on.

[Özim]

No this is a guy who openly stated that he wouldn't want us to win the title even if he thought it was possible because we didn't deserve it, no you should want us to win it because this is the club you profess to support.

Wenger rage is ephemeral, I first started calling for his head after the 8-2 game in 2011 (rather foolishly in hindsight I said that Van Gaal was the man to come in short term and replace him). It isn't blinkered faith in the manager that causes fans to hope for the best despite there being evidence to suggest a collapse was predictable, it's just ultimately acknowledging the powerlessness of the fans in the situation and what we think is irrelevant.
Equally to fold your arms like a smug gloating git and say "I told you so" doesn't mean any greater insight into the game.

I guess the problem with you is your a shortermist, you want us to win the title that's fine, what is abundantly clear is however that if we do win the title there isn't a hope Wenger will move on, quite the opposite in fact, so to say you want us to win the title but want to see Wenger gone isn't a logical option.

The way I see it we've been absolutely awful, to win the title whilst playing so poorly and struggling for most of the season would really devalue it for me, the fact it would pretty much guarantee there would be no hope of Wenger going anytime in the near of medium term future would also be a big negative as it's clear the guy can't take us further.

We need change and winning the title in a season when every other top team has struggled and a team who battled relegation last season are our biggest rival would hardly be that great an achievement.

The sad fact is I get no pleasure out of this team, it's disjointed, lacks quality, struggles to score and defend and in any normal season would be nowhere near any major prize, to win it would be a false dawn, I've grown up watching teams winning titles not stumbling to them because everyone else can't perform, in that sense Leicester are by far the most deserving, a small budget, hard work, some clever signings and great tactics and a desire not to be beaten has got them to the top, something barely any other team has demonstrated any of.

Anyone who says they ant us to win the title but want Wenger gone isn't serious about wanting him to go in reality, because that can't and wouldn't happen, in terms of our future not winning it and Wenger going would be far better than Wenger winning it and staying on for another 6 years.

[Globalgunner]

Deserved or not, it's ridiculous for a fan to say they'd rather we didn't win it. We haven't won it in 12 years it would be absurd to be anything other than celebratory if we somehow managed it.
Does it change anything? No clearly not, I have no issues with fans who say Wenger should go even if we did win the title it would for me make perfect sense for him to go out on a high.

But bottom line is this is Arsenal football club and it's acceptable for a fan to detest the manager, detest the players, detest the style of football we play but it's not acceptable to hope we don't win things.

Basically there is NO way in my mind we can win either the league or the CL with Wenger at the helm. It is just not in him, even when most of our rivals have gone to shit, even when we have the money and the players, Wenger will find a way to screw it up. ALWAYS does, 08/09 we were in a shout for the league, collapsed as usual. The stars can no longer align for him as other unforseen actors will come along to mess things up like we have seen this season. Not planning well, not correcting previous mistakes, not using the spectrum of resources available to him, always leaving himself a caveat for failure. These are not the hallmarks of a top manager. This is a repetitive syndrome that we have seen for a decade, while suffering a severe drop in playing style. Yes you may not like it but saying I told you so when you actually did is something that you will have to face in any other walk of life. Nobody is enjoying the quagmire that is Arsenal now. However just like any other mortal condition, we need to excise the unwanted growth now, not let it fester or hope it will just go away. Wenger wont change, thats for sure, so either the club do or the fans.

[Letters]

I dont know what you are on about but its basically nonsense. Zim has been right about Wenger for years while the most of you have been saying the opposite. The signs have been there for years but the yearly St Totteringhams cup has been keeping many of you sated, buying into the 2% away from domination fools gold stories.
Its been widely stated that if things dont get worse, then Wenger wont go. Another 3rd FA cup this year and you would probably be chortling 3 in a row. Wenger delivers the barest minimum, has done for a decade now. Do you think Wenger will ever leave on his own steam?. 2 years ago. You and I discussed the possibility of Wenger extending his current contract, you didnt believe it possible. If the conditions were right you can bet he would. Time has not moved on for him, every season he believes he is going to fulfill great expectations. Players leave after seeing his ineffective methods yield failure after failure, we blame the players. Yes its not appropo to say I told you so, but a few of us actually did, years ago, So instead on railing on Zim for telling you what you wished not to hear, you should suck it up and stop feigning offence.
Some fool a few months back said Wenger haters blamed Wenger for all the problems in their life, Bullshit!. We are here for the club, not Wenger, seeing mediocrity passed off as competing is not for everyone. I personally see no reason to apologise for that.

Zim has not been right about Wenger for years simply because his position about Wenger is so ridiculous and extreme. Which isn't to say that everything he's said is wrong but the more extreme stuff has always been wrong and remains wrong.
It's like he has some personal vendetta against him, it's ridiculous. Even in this thread I've seen him say something about the huge amounts of 'damage' Wenger's done to the club. Bullshit. He'll leave us in a far better state than he found us.

St Totteringham's day did NOT keep people 'sated' and no-one believed we were 2% away from domination. There were times in the barren years when he probably should have been sacked, the FA Cup was a massive relief and arguably bought him a couple of more seasons. And yes, 3 FA Cups in a row would have been nice but I have consistently said - and I'm generally thought to be Wenger's biggest defender on here - that we need to push on and properly challenge for the title this year. We should have last year, IMO retaining the Cup bought him one last chance. So yes, it would have been nice to win the Cup but with the way the league season is panning out it wouldn't have been enough.

If you think that 3rd and the FA Cup is the barest minimum, or 'mediocrity' then that is a massive compliment to Wenger, before he came to the club that would have been seen as a very good season. The people saying, or thinking, 'I told you so' now also said we'd drop out of the top 4 because of the 'decline' Wenger had us in. They said we'd never win another trophy under Wenger - now of course we have so those people (delirious at the time we won the first one) are now dismissing it as a trophy they don't care about. And yes, it does get up people's noses when everyone else is leaping round the room after that goal against Leicester and Zim seems so bitter about it - his hatred of Wenger is so extreme it seems he can't bear us doing anything positive.

We need to move on from Wenger, that is increasingly clear.
But that doesn't mean the more extreme views about him are correct.

[Niall_Quinn]

Even in this thread I've seen him say something about the huge amounts of 'damage' Wenger's done to the club. Bullshit. He'll leave us in a far better state than he found us.

That has become highly debatable. At least we were a football club before Wenger arrived. We won't be one, in any sense important to the fans, by the time he leaves. So there's an argument that could be made stating Wenger has not only damaged but destroyed the club beyond recovery.

[Power n Glory]

Zim has not been right about Wenger for years simply because his position about Wenger is so ridiculous and extreme. Which isn't to say that everything he's said is wrong but the more extreme stuff has always been wrong and remains wrong.
It's like he has some personal vendetta against him, it's ridiculous. Even in this thread I've seen him say something about the huge amounts of 'damage' Wenger's done to the club. Bullshit. He'll leave us in a far better state than he found us.

St Totteringham's day did NOT keep people 'sated' and no-one believed we were 2% away from domination. There were times in the barren years when he probably should have been sacked, the FA Cup was a massive relief and arguably bought him a couple of more seasons. And yes, 3 FA Cups in a row would have been nice but I have consistently said - and I'm generally thought to be Wenger's biggest defender on here - that we need to push on and properly challenge for the title this year. We should have last year, IMO retaining the Cup bought him one last chance. So yes, it would have been nice to win the Cup but with the way the league season is panning out it wouldn't have been enough.

If you think that 3rd and the FA Cup is the barest minimum, or 'mediocrity' then that is a massive compliment to Wenger, before he came to the club that would have been seen as a very good season. The people saying, or thinking, 'I told you so' now also said we'd drop out of the top 4 because of the 'decline' Wenger had us in. They said we'd never win another trophy under Wenger - now of course we have so those people (delirious at the time we won the first one) are now dismissing it as a trophy they don't care about. And yes, it does get up people's noses when everyone else is leaping round the room after that goal against Leicester and Zim seems so bitter about it - his hatred of Wenger is so extreme it seems he can't bear us doing anything positive.

We need to move on from Wenger, that is increasingly clear.
But that doesn't mean the more extreme views about him are correct.

What views have been extreme? The lack of spending? Being a poor tactician? The poor man management? Poor handling of injuries? Being too eager to please the Board, fleece the fans and make them a profit? Being to rigid and stubborn to adapt to change? Project youth being a failure? Wenger running out of ideas and running on empty?

What's extreme about any of it? Filter out of the tone or whatever it is you find offensive about the posting style and you'll find a lot of truth in what's been said over the years. And it's not just a case of doom mongers predicting failure. That's bollocks. It's very specific about his failings as a manager along with his character. The most disappointing thing for me about Wenger is seeing how his thoughts align so closely with Kronke's and the rest of the Board. He talks as if we're a brand sometimes, as if the fans are just customers and seems to have no conscience about the ticket prices. He seems completely detached from some of the recent comments made.

[Power n Glory]

Deserved or not, it's ridiculous for a fan to say they'd rather we didn't win it. We haven't won it in 12 years it would be absurd to be anything other than celebratory if we somehow managed it.
Does it change anything? No clearly not, I have no issues with fans who say Wenger should go even if we did win the title it would for me make perfect sense for him to go out on a high.

But bottom line is this is Arsenal football club and it's acceptable for a fan to detest the manager, detest the players, detest the style of football we play but it's not acceptable to hope we don't win things.

It's not, because if you understand why a fans want Wenger gone regardless of us winning the title, it's not a far stretch to understand why someone would think a win would just result in him getting a contract extension and feeling vindicated. When you can't stand to watch another season of us play this way, it's understandable. I'm almost at that point myself. I really can't bear another season of this same shite! So what's the point in all this if you can't stand the way we play and prepared to switch off? And it's not as if we deserve the title or it's something we can feel proud of. You can't speak for every fan on this one because I've heard others say similar. Leicester City are pulling off the ultimate giant slaying. David and Goliath. Against all odds they've been on top of this fight and it's embarrassing for us and the rest of the teams. But if we some how muster up our last bit of strength to beat them at the end, is it really something to beat our chests about? Not really imo. It's a bit of sour victory. Totally different scenario but a similar feeling, like seeing a cup final game decided by a penalty that our player blatantly dived for. Not really the glorious ending we hoped for.

[Marc Overmars]

It would be somewhat of a hollow title win but I'd still celebrate the fuck out of it. I've never understood the notion of losing for the greater good.

[Power n Glory]

It's not even a case of the greater good. It's the thought of more years with Wenger that's putting people off. I want the league title again and I don't know what the heck happens with us if Spurs win it.

It's really a catch 22.

[Munchies]

Leicester will win it

This season will always be remembered as the biggest bottle job in our history.