Ozil - Do we need him?

[Power n Glory]

Mastermind...in fact, this question goes out to everyone. Are we playing a completely different style of football never seen at Arsenal before?

I have to constantly say this because a lot of posters on this forum do not really get what Ozil does even after all this time

This is what I also disagree with. It's not hard to understand what he does, it's a question of how effective it is. The hat trick he scored against Ludogorets, his game against Napoli in his first season....if we were showing that sort of form week in week out which would you say is more effective?

[Marc Overmars]

My opinion of Ozil has gone up and down but I've warmed to him and I understand the work he does. However I don't think he belongs on too high of a pedestal, that's pretty much absolving him of any responsibility and no player is above that. Opinion on him is mixed with good reason, he is just as guilty as anyone of going missing in the big moments.

[Power n Glory]

he damn near set the premier league assists record in the premiership with Giroud last year, so maybe his subtle style actually boosts his teammates production?

In Giroud's first season, without Ozil in the team and without Sanchez, he scored 17 in total. 11 in the league. In Ozil's best season for us he scored 24 in total, 16 in the league. It's an improvement but not massive.

Say what you want about Cesc and Ade, but Ade has never scored 30 in a season ever since and he wasn't close to being a 30 striker prior to Cesc either. Couldn't even scrape 20 goals. Giroud had at least managed to score 25 goals before coming to Arsenal and hasn't topped that record since.

[Niall_Quinn]

Mastermind...in fact, this question goes out to everyone. Are we playing a completely different style of football never seen at Arsenal before?



This is what I also disagree with. It's not hard to understand what he does, it's a question of how effective it is. The hat trick he scored against Ludogorets, his game against Napoli in his first season....if we were showing that sort of form week in week out which would you say is more effective?

No. Quite obviously we've seen better football at Arsenal, in fact possibly the best football ever seen anywhere (in terms of sheer entertainment at least).

However. We now have 2 pieces of a puzzle that clearly has the potential to deliver special football. Or say 6 pieces if you roll Kos, Cech, Bellerin and maybe Xhaka into that mix. Santi is on the way out. Theo is Theo. Ramsey seems determined to avoid hi potential. Wilshere is probably done now. So 6 pieces. We need 8-10 more. They don't have to all be multi-billion quid superstars, but they need to be a step up from what we have. An ambitious manager with a football focused board could do special things at this club, the sort of thing the other lot can't replicate with a limitless chequebook.

[Power n Glory]

No. Quite obviously we've seen better football at Arsenal, in fact possibly the best football ever seen anywhere (in terms of sheer entertainment at least).

However. We now have 2 pieces of a puzzle that clearly has the potential to deliver special football. Or say 6 pieces if you roll Kos, Cech, Bellerin and maybe Xhaka into that mix. Santi is on the way out. Theo is Theo. Ramsey seems determined to avoid hi potential. Wilshere is probably done now. So 6 pieces. We need 8-10 more. They don't have to all be multi-billion quid superstars, but they need to be a step up from what we have. An ambitious manager with a football focused board could do special things at this club, the sort of thing the other lot can't replicate with a limitless chequebook.

Exactly. Which goes back to my last post about Cesc and how the team has been developed since the Invincible squad broke apart. The tippy tappy super possession style we complain about got old way before Ozil arrived and we’re still playing the same stuff and encountering the same problems. Mastermind is talking as if we’ve never played possession football before or had a team that could create chances. We used to create far more clear cut chances and waste a heck of a lot more.

As for the missing piece of the puzzle….that’s the 2% away from domination argument. We’ve heard that before. We’re a better team with Ozil but I think people go overboard with it.

[mastermind84]

a) who said we havent played possession football before?
b) where did I say anything about Ozil bringing a great style of play to Arsenal?
c) stop putting words in my posts that are not there.
d) Ozil is a much better player than Cesc was for us
e) we aren't exactly playing possession football this season.
f) Ozil 2 trophies where he was a key cog in the team, Cesc 0
g) Ozil was the first established world class player brought to Arsenal since Sol Campbell and the first attacker that was world class since Bergkamp
h) When Ozil has bad games, our attack goes rotten. He has a lot, but he is remarkably consistent
i) If you say something lke "Ozil needs to score a hat trick to show how great he is" then no matter how much you type it, you don't understand Ozil's value to this team.

[Power n Glory]

a) who said we havent played possession football before?
b) where did I say anything about Ozil bringing a great style of play to Arsenal?
c) stop putting words in my posts that are not there.
d) Ozil is a much better player than Cesc was for us
e) we aren't exactly playing possession football this season.
f) Ozil 2 trophies where he was a key cog in the team, Cesc 0
g) Ozil was the first established world class player brought to Arsenal since Sol Campbell and the first attacker that was world class since Bergkamp
h) When Ozil has bad games, our attack goes rotten. He has a lot, but he is remarkably consistent
i) If you say something lke "Ozil needs to score a hat trick to show how great he is" then no matter how much you type it, you don't understand Ozil's value to this team.

You're going to have explain how Ozil is helping Sanchez score more goals. I can't accept blanket statements without specific examples. Saying Ozil is shifting players out of position for Sanchez is too vague. Take that West Ham hat trick as an example, explain how because I see a lot of work from Sanchez on those.

Also, out of the 13 goals Sanchez has scored so far this season, Ozil has provided 0 assists for Sanchez. But on the other hand, this is the most goals Ozil has scored in his career over a season. Alexis has set up 4 out of the 8 goals Ozil has scored this season. Whose influencing who here? You might have it backwards. Very unfair to say Sanchez is scoring more because of Ozil even though Sanchez scoring goals is nothing new. Club and country he scores. That's not the case for Ozil.

You said Ozil was the most influential player we had at Arsenal. How so? What his signing represents was key but for me, Sanchez and Cazorla are the two players I've seen shift how we play tactically.

I don't care about Ozil's trophy count here at Arsenal either. Tally up the amount of money we have spent since Cesc has left. Cesc was in his early 20s leading a young, inexperienced Wenger squad. Replace young Cesc for experienced Ozil around that same era and we'd still win nothing. I'd disagree with anyone who'd think Ozil could have done more to win us trophies around the time it was project youth.

I was wrong about Ozil vs ludo. It wasn't the hat trick where he scored that superb goal where he's dropping defenders on their ass. I'd prefer if he used his superior ball control to craft space over movement that's depending on the defender getting suckered into vacating space along with our players have the intelligence and ability to take advantage. Too many moving parts depending on others. I prefer when he's aggressive and proactive. That doesn't mean I don't know his value to the team. The football snobbery with you never stops. I just don't place his value above a more aggressive and direct player. Ancelotti felt the same way.

[Niall_Quinn]

Exactly. Which goes back to my last post about Cesc and how the team has been developed since the Invincible squad broke apart. The tippy tappy super possession style we complain about got old way before Ozil arrived and we’re still playing the same stuff and encountering the same problems. Mastermind is talking as if we’ve never played possession football before or had a team that could create chances. We used to create far more clear cut chances and waste a heck of a lot more.

As for the missing piece of the puzzle….that’s the 2% away from domination argument. We’ve heard that before. We’re a better team with Ozil but I think people go overboard with it.

Well my argument was that Cesc had the luxury of easing himself into a team that still had the Invincible influence all over it. Ozil is being measured as the guy who hasn't arrived and immediately transformed the club. It's not a valid comparison, the circumstances are so different. Cesc wasn't hailed as the saviour of the club when he stepped on the pitch. We didn't even know we needed a saviour back then. The road back now is torturous, made harder by the fact Wenger learns at such a slow rate (1 lesson per half decade).

[Power n Glory]

Well my argument was that Cesc had the luxury of easing himself into a team that still had the Invincible influence all over it. Ozil is being measured as the guy who hasn't arrived and immediately transformed the club. It's not a valid comparison, the circumstances are so different. Cesc wasn't hailed as the saviour of the club when he stepped on the pitch. We didn't even know we needed a saviour back then. The road back now is torturous, made harder by the fact Wenger learns at such a slow rate (1 lesson per half decade).

It's no comparison at all. You have to think back to project youth and the state of the team. Cesc is a young 16 year old as well. There is no easing into a better system. It was unstable. Players left every year so you're having to tear up the playbook and start again each year. What's worse is that you're having yo adjust to playing with much lower quality players. Henry removed and over to Ade and Bendy or Chamakh. Gilberto leaves, Flam develops and then leaves, now play with Denilson. There is no easing into that process. I'll take the point about Cesc not having the burden of being a saviour for Arsenal. That's something Ozil has had to cope with. But I give Cesc much due respect for being so young and rising to the occasion. No other teen from our ranks rose to the occasion like that. It's not as if Ozil is under that much pressure from the fans either. How do you think it will be if he moves on from us and goes to a bigger club? It's not as if he's stepped into something unprecedented and totally unique. It's what happens for all players that come with a huge price tag. He's at least had the luxury of seeing Sanchez, Welbeck, Cech, Xhaka, Mustafi and Perez added to the existing line up. Upgrade after upgrade. Cesc had to deal with downgrade after downgrade. Henry leaving. Cole leaving. Buy Reyes, sell Reyes. Buy Hleb, sell Hleb. You can't be serious about Ozil having to step into worse conditions. That's crazy.