Tony Adams: Graham was a better coach than Wenger

[Toronto Gooner]

As much as I love using stats to back up arguments this is an example where they are being misused. If the best 'keeper in the country was at, say, Blackpool last season he'd have conceded a shedload. Not because he's crap, just because he's behind a terrible defence and would be constantly exposed.
You couldn't just use goal against stats to demonstrate how poor he is.

If we take the (thoroughly enjoyable) 92/93 season as an example:

http://www.statto.com/football/teams...992-1993/table

Yes, we could raise it for the odd cup game, and we did, but we were a very dull, mid-table side that year. We finished 10th, 28 points off the title, only 7 points off relegation. We only won 15 league games out of 42, we drew 11 and lost 16. We only scored 40 goals!

But, and here's the point, we only conceded 38 league goals that year. Fewer than this season's 43 (and we only have 38 games now). Despite our general mediocracy we had the 2nd meanest defence in the league.

Right now we're a top 4 side with a mid-table (at best) defence. We tend to dominate games so we don't concede that many but we concede far more than the rest of the top 4, the teams we should be comparing ourselves to. We concede far too many goals from set pieces and long balls - the sign of a poorly organised defence. And we regularly crumble under pressure and drop points from winning positions.

Back in the season I'm talking about we were a mid-table side with a title-winning defence. Yes, they sometimes conceded more goals than Wenger sides often do but for their mid-table level they did exceptionally well. For our current top 4 level our defence does exceptionally poorly.

Bottom line if you're 1-0 up with 10 minutes left which defence in its prime would you want out there? Graham's all the way.

But overall I'd pick Wenger over Graham as manager in a heartbeat.

As I said earlier, I was not trying to prove that Wenger's defensive capabilities were better than Graham's; just that the much vaunted Graham defence was not the all dominant group that some keep promoting. In all honesty, the defence of Graham's defence comes across as being as blinkered as those defenders of Wenger who are now derisively called AKBs. [Puns intended.]

Anyway, it is interesting that you chose 1992/93 because in that season Arsenal lost 5 home games 1-0; won only 1 home game 1-0; lost 3 away games 1-0; and won 3 away games 1-0.

[AKBapologist]

Tried to make Toronto Gooner 's argument before one time, was totally shouted down by the rose tinted brigade..

[Toronto Gooner]

Tried to make Toronto Gooner 's argument before one time, was totally shouted down by the rose tinted brigade..

Sorry, I did not see your earlier attempt. I am glad that I can be of assistance in making the point.

[Boss]

Not sure any point has been made.

Letters post shows why such comparisons are meaningless.

[Coney]

Not sure any point has been made.

Letters post shows why such comparisons are meaningless.

There is another reason is is meaningless and that is because the opposition we faced in Graham's era is not the same as we are facing now and have been in the last few years - the game has changed considerably. Graham did not have to face Ferguson's manu which, I hate to say, is the strongest team overall for the last 10+ years. Also, the way refereeing is done these days, a lot of the hard play of the Graham squad would have resulted in lots of red cards - again, the comparison is not possible to make for certain.

All you can say is that in Graham's era the team was reasonably successful in the environment of that time and the Invincibles were successful in their era. How Graham would have faired in these times is impossible to be certain.

[Özim]

There is another reason is is meaningless and that is because the opposition we faced in Graham's era is not the same as we are facing now and have been in the last few years - the game has changed considerably. Graham did not have to face Ferguson's manu which, I hate to say, is the strongest team overall for the last 10+ years. Also, the way refereeing is done these days, a lot of the hard play of the Graham squad would have resulted in lots of red cards - again, the comparison is not possible to make for certain.

All you can say is that in Graham's era the team was reasonably successful in the environment of that time and the Invincibles were successful in their era. How Graham would have faired in these times is impossible to be certain.

Yes true but we're purely talking about Graham's defence, this was around for a while whilst Wenger was manager and they were top notch then too (Adams retired in 2002).

Man U of 99 were exceptional, they had top quality players and won the treble of course, Man U were weaker for a spell in when they won nothing for 3 years and this year when they've looked average despite winning the title, the rest of the time they've been top quality.

[Özim]

Tried to make Toronto Gooner 's argument before one time, was totally shouted down by the rose tinted brigade..

There's a very good reason for that though, simply because that Graham defence was amazing, I watched them enough times to be able to see how good they were...it doesn't take a genius to see that this Wenger defence is average at best.

You can simply thump a ball over the defence and beat it, you can stick a high ball in the air give it loads of problems, it makes basic errors fairly regularly and it doesn't play as a unit at all.

It really isn't very good at all, the evidence from this season just adds further strength to the argument.

With some decent coaching it cold be a lot better of course, as it does have a couple players at least who have ability.

[latewinner]

Graham would have been much better than Wenger in the champions league. He was unlucky in his first attempt at it.

[Özim]

Graham would have been much better than Wenger in the champions league. He was unlucky in his first attempt at it.

Tactically Graham was superb, given the number of chances and the quality Wenger has had at his disposal I don't doubt he would.

Wenger is a proven failure in Europe, he's had so many attempts at winning a trophy and never won any. Tactics are important, you can't just send your team out to play their own game and ignore the opposition.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

wonder if George would be interested in taking Pat Rice's place?