This Weekend's Fixtures & Midwek Fixtures (29/30 Nov/01/03/04/05 Dec)

[HCZ_Reborn]

No, I'm accusing you of stubbornness.
Statistical probability is relevant because you can't just fluke a title. I'd argue Utd were lucky to win the Cup last year. They were a VAR decision away from humiliation vs Coventry, they were admittedly good in the final. But in cups you can get a bit of luck here and there which sees you through. In a league...not so much. The season isn't over of course, but I'm looking at their season as a whole so far. 20 games, won 18, drawn 1, lost 1. I'm not disputing they've been lucky in some games, that of course happens. But those stats aren't just luck, there's something about a team that can achieve that. Something which makes me believe I underestimated them.
Whether they can do it over the course of a whole season remains to be seen, and I'd agree they have overall had easier fixtures. But you've set out your criteria for how you're going to evaluate them so one thing we are aligned on is the importance of the Christmas milestone. If they're still this far above us at the turn of the year it's going to be tricky to haul them in.

No it’s not me being stubborn at all, it’s you. No one has said anything about fluking a title (apart from anything else because they’ve won nothing yet). What I’ve said is that in four games out of the 13 they’ve played…they got more points than perhaps they deserved to. And without even watching the games you’re showing the unmitigated arrogance of saying “well that’s statistically unlikely” as if there’s an objective measurement to be made. It’s an opinion, it’s not an out there one…it’s more out there that you’re dismissing what essentially comes down to a subjective point of view without even looking at the games in question.

Not only that but you’ve made assertions about how you believe they will perform in games coming up when you have little idea of how they’ve performed in games previously, apart from anecdotal evidence and looking at a league table.


Honestly it’s fucking ridiculous, and I think I’m going to have to draw a line under it now. I will not engage with you on this subject further until you actually make the effort to actually watch the games. Because then I could respect your opinion if you said “well I watched this game and whilst you’re right that X happened, I think it’s too simplistic an assessment because the overall play was better than Y”

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apart from anything else you look at it in such a binary way. Apart from anything else after 13 games it’s not actually all that impressive….been there done that comes to mind. We won 12 out of our first 14 in 2022/2023, and were only five points ahead of Man City and the main thing to impress upon you…..we didn’t win the title that year.

Now if we were only five points clear of City and Liverpool are nine clear of us, by definition it says more about us being nine points behind than it does them.


As I also said, in that 14 game spell there were 2-3 games we were lucky to win (we won 3-2 against Liverpool at the Emirates, they could easily have been awarded a penalty against us) and actually if anything played far better than they did in the game two years later where they did get a draw.

Saying I think being 9 points clear flatters them a bit, I think they are being overhyped for winning games that largely in the course of a season they’d be expected to win and that they haven’t properly been tested yet and we will see where they are when they are. Isn’t even miles removed from how I’d have assessed Arsenal two years ago and yet I’m being stubborn and harsh.

No…I’m just not prepared to jump the gun like everyone else is. And you read it like I’m saying “oh they are shit, they are Only where they are because they’ve fluked it”

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I’ve only just seen this now

Do you honestly think City just decided not to bring in another goalscorer just to even the odds maybe?

Or maybe that especially given that they are under investigation for having historically posted false accounting in regard to financial sustainability compliance, it probably wouldn’t be the smartest thing in the world to push the boat out?. Similarly do you think Newcastle are just being frugal despite being owned to all intents and purposes by MBS of Saudi Arabia for the fun of it as well?

I am struggling to see how the post you quoted ( or the previous exchange that led to it) directly advocates that Pep should have brought in another striker during the game or before the season started (not a bad idea though, but clearly not what we were discussing at that time).

Anyway its clear you've got your hands full nowadays with doubling down on this ridiculous (there is no kinder way of putting this) comparison of Liverpool doing a Leicester....so I won't take up anymore of your time which should allow you to get back to digging that hole deeper and deeper.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I am struggling to see how the post you quoted ( or the previous exchange that led to it) directly advocates that Pep should have brought in another striker during the game or before the season started (not a bad idea though, but clearly not what we were discussing at that time).

Anyway its clear you've got your hands full nowadays with doubling down on this ridiculous (there is no kinder way of putting this) comparison of Liverpool doing a Leicester....so I won't take up anymore of your time which should allow you to get back to digging that hole deeper and deeper.

Could be worse, could be arguing that Chelsea is a good model for running a club. Then I’d have all my work ahead of me

But on this I will concede, it did sound like you were talking in general rather than presumably what you did mean about bringing players onto the field from the bench during the match.


But given how you’ve promoted the heedless Chelsea approach, I think I can be forgiven for this misunderstanding

And for you to claim any argument is ridiculous only proves to me it’s value so thank you

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Could be worse, could be arguing that Chelsea is a good model for running a club. Then I’d have all my work ahead of me

But on this I will concede, it did sound like you were talking in general rather than presumably what you did mean about bringing players onto the field from the bench during the match.


But given how you’ve promoted the heedless Chelsea approach, I think I can be forgiven for this misunderstanding

And for you to claim any argument is ridiculous only proves to me it’s value so thank you

Since you asked nicely, IIRC what me and Maccy discussed was Pep changing the game by bringing a KDB or so off the bench.

Maccy felt Haaland could be unchained if that occured. But my argument was that giving him better service necessarily would not make difference because he was being marshalled out and that was the problem.

When we discussed "goal threats" we were talking about the supporting acts. Saka is a goal threat. Trossard use to be one till he got a bit pompous and broke himself.

In the good old days, before they got over reliant on Haaland's monster contributions, KDB and Foden were potent goal threats. KDB seems to be succumbing to age (though I think age shouldn't stop something that's instinctive) and IMO Foden has been on a downward spiral since his old bunkmate Palmer started burning the charts.

Pep's version of tippy tappy excels when the supporting act is actually the main act if you ask me. The last 2 years that he has struggled to win the league was when he changed the mode to suit Haaland. Note there are a lot of parallels with the way Arteta sets us up too.

Anyway, back to our childish squabbles. Its funny you choose to mention Chelsea. I noticed in an earlier post you also gave them a shout out for a tittle challenge (probably more to suit your Anti-Liverpool rhetoric). If they did win it, would they be doing a Leicester too? Would you eat your words on how badly run a club they are and how there model can only lead to failure? BTW it seems you are digging a new whole for yourself with United too, but don't let me stop you underating everyone except Citeh.

It's been a pretty interesting season so far. If we had adequately prepared ourselves and were doing better I would have rated it as the best season in ages. Anyway I do hope the surprises, which are actually not surprises, continue.

[Mac76]

The kids in question were Ryan Giggs, David Beckham and Paul Scholes

I think some of their current youngsters are decent, but they aren’t at that level.

Scholes was an overrated ****, and the others fine though not sure actually how old they were or whether 'kids' was an exageration anyway but the point was they were youngish and relatively unproven and surprised everyone with their ability to see out a whole season and win - while I hate him to the core i guess that's where you have to give the manager some credit, although of course his bullying of refs and the FA also was worth ten points or so

[HCZ_Reborn]

Scholes was an overrated ****, and the others fine though not sure actually how old they were or whether 'kids' was an exageration anyway but the point was they were youngish and relatively unproven and surprised everyone with their ability to see out a whole season and win - while I hate him to the core i guess that's where you have to give the manager some credit, although of course his bullying of refs and the FA also was worth ten points or so

Scholes was overrated is certainly an opinion I guess

Not for nothing, I will concede he never really did much at international level. But he was a top player for Man United in my view. The only thing he couldn’t do was tackle…. fuck me he could not do that for shit

[HCZ_Reborn]

Since you asked nicely, IIRC what me and Maccy discussed was Pep changing the game by bringing a KDB or so off the bench.

Maccy felt Haaland could be unchained if that occured. But my argument was that giving him better service necessarily would not make difference because he was being marshalled out and that was the problem.

When we discussed "goal threats" we were talking about the supporting acts. Saka is a goal threat. Trossard use to be one till he got a bit pompous and broke himself.

In the good old days, before they got over reliant on Haaland's monster contributions, KDB and Foden were potent goal threats. KDB seems to be succumbing to age (though I think age shouldn't stop something that's instinctive) and IMO Foden has been on a downward spiral since his old bunkmate Palmer started burning the charts.

Pep's version of tippy tappy excels when the supporting act is actually the main act if you ask me. The last 2 years that he has struggled to win the league was when he changed the mode to suit Haaland. Note there are a lot of parallels with the way Arteta sets us up too.

Anyway, back to our childish squabbles. Its funny you choose to mention Chelsea. I noticed in an earlier post you also gave them a shout out for a tittle challenge (probably more to suit your Anti-Liverpool rhetoric). If they did win it, would they be doing a Leicester too? Would you eat your words on how badly run a club they are and how there model can only lead to failure? BTW it seems you are digging a new whole for yourself with United too, but don't let me stop you underating everyone except Citeh.

It's been a pretty interesting season so far. If we had adequately prepared ourselves and were doing better I would have rated it as the best season in ages. Anyway I do hope the surprises, which are actually not surprises, continue.

Oh if Chelsea won the title it absolutely would be a Leicester City event, far more than Liverpool in the sense that they were basically mid table last season

And No given that my argument about Chelsea is that unlike Man City they’ve never attempted to build a consistent winning team since Mourinho went, winning the title and then disappearing back to mid table obscurity because of the chaotic way they run the club and are asking for massive trouble with their wage bill….i don’t think them winning the title (as unlikely as that is).


Now the one thing I will say for Liverpool is I think they are a very well run club, despite you espousing the merits of hiring and firing. They brought in the bald Dutchman because Klopp chose to go not because they fired him for finishing third.


If Liverpool win the title (and I think where we probably agree is that it should be curtains for Arteta if they do) is that it actually promotes a settled and long term approach, because I think if they do (and I still think 9 points is not the insurmountable lead that people assume it is) then they are far more likely to be stable enough to gradually build on that success rather than a revolving door hiring policy for coaches and players

[Mac76]

If Liverpool win the title (and I think where we probably agree is that it should be curtains for Arteta if they do)

depends - I think he was a bit defensive when we went to 10 men, especially against Brighton when I think we could still have got three points, and failing to sign another attacker as an obvious error

But the rediculous red cards we've had, plus Citeh getting as much extra time as they needed to equalise at their place, are not on Arteta

Nor are the injuries, most of which have been caused by these ridiculous no-one-gives-a-fcuk internationals they have to keep jetting off to play in

If we play well from now on and give Liverpool a run for their money to finish a good second I think he has enough mitigating circs on his side

[HCZ_Reborn]

I disagree, mainly because I think if Liverpool win the title it won’t be because they’ve done a Man City monster run (even now I don’t think they’ve won more than four games in a row). It will be because we’ve dropped silly points despite having relatively easier fixtures (as in our remaining fixtures are easier than their remaining fixtures)

Unforgivable failure