Match reaction v Swansea

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Our players aren't natural leaders or winners, they need someone to tell them and instill the right values, sadly we don't have that someone.

True. When your captain looks and plays like he don't want to be there you have trouble.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Sorry they play for Arsenal that should be enough. They should show pride that comes from within not a manager. Easy to blame the manager for everything. Its time these ****s stood up and were counted for.



This i agree with.

What's there to be proud of when most of them have achieved didly squat in their careers as professional footballers?? Practically all of them can count their trophy hauls with one hand- and none of them have made any significant impact internationally. I'd find it hard to be proud with this sort of record- or should finishing at the bottom half of the 4 man league qualifying for the CL every year be what we expect to motivate them?? Or would it be their amazingly gallant defeat to Birmingham in the CC final that should do this??

Let's be honest, its silly to think our current crop of players will self-motivate themselves with their average personal achievements that really can't differentiate them from any of the players we recently faced from Swansea, Villa or Everton.

Only one person in our current setup has something to be proud of; he's the only one that was world acclaimed, that can truly boast that he is better than imaginary 4th place trophies, losing a final to relegation fodder and being 10th after a 1/3 of the season is gone. He's actually the one who most unbiased observers would hold responsible for the motivation we are now speaking of. Even the players would say he was the one who recruited them on the premise that they were better than what they had achieved prior to joining us, and what they have achieved these past 7 years( I mean he tells us that publicly everyday, no??). Only he had/ has the power to recruit (something he has never done) or just even retain the few self-motivated player we have had that could show records of personal success ( Vieira, Henry, TheWhore, Fab, RVP etc.). But in his wisdom he chose and still chooses not to.

He keeps saying he hasn't changed and this is the system that has worked for him and he has used since day one when he joined the club. To be fair to him, he is right. I just think he and a lot of fans were so deluded that they never realised that a main reason he was able to motivate no-name players to regular winners and challengers then was that he already had a solid foundation of proven winners/leaders who knew the turf then and when the last of Graham's men left, so did all the success and proven motivators in Arsenal- at least on the pitch.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What's there to be proud of when most of them have achieved didly squat in their careers as professional footballers?? Practically all of them can count their trophy hauls with one hand- and none of them have made any significant impact internationally. I'd find it hard to be proud with this sort of record- or should finishing at the bottom half of the 4 man league qualifying for the CL every year be what we expect to motivate them?? Or would it be their amazingly gallant defeat to Birmingham in the CC final that should do this??

Let's be honest, its silly to think our current crop of players will self-motivate themselves with their average personal achievements that really can't differentiate them from any of the players we recently faced from Swansea, Villa or Everton.

Only one person in our current setup has something to be proud of; he's the only one that was world acclaimed, that can truly boast that he is better than imaginary 4th place trophies, losing a final to relegation fodder and being 10th after a 1/3 of the season is gone. He's actually the one who most unbiased observers would hold responsible for the motivation we are now speaking of. Even the players would say he was the one who recruited them on the premise that they were better than what they had achieved prior to joining us, and what they have achieved these past 7 years( I mean he tells us that publicly everyday, no??). Only he had/ has the power to recruit (something he has never done) or just even retain the few self-motivated player we have had that could show records of personal success ( Vieira, Henry, TheWhore, Fab, RVP etc.). But in his wisdom he chose and still chooses not to.

He keeps saying he hasn't changed and this is the system that has worked for him and he has used since day one when he joined the club. To be fair to him, he is right. I just think he and a lot of fans were so deluded that they never realised that a main reason he was able to motivate no-name players to regular winners and challengers then was that he already had a solid foundation of proven winners/leaders who knew the turf then and when the last of Graham's men left, so did all the success and proven motivators in Arsenal- at least on the pitch.

What's there to be proud of when most of them have achieved didly squat in their careers as professional footballers?? Practically all of them can count their trophy hauls with one hand- and none of them have made any significant impact internationally. I'd find it hard to be proud with this sort of record- or should finishing at the bottom half of the 4 man league qualifying for the CL every year be what we expect to motivate them?? Or would it be their amazingly gallant defeat to Birmingham in the CC final that should do this??

I never said anything about being proud of what they won. Im saying show pride in themselves, show they can be as good as the rest. Too many players like to talk a good game and don't back it up.

No point saying we can win the league then have a shocker in the next few games.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I never said anything about being proud of what they won. Im saying show pride in themselves, show they can be as good as the rest. Too many players like to talk a good game and don't back it up.

No point saying we can win the league then have a shocker in the next few games.

They say the can win the league, because our manager (who happens to be among a select few who have won it several times) tells them they can. Despite their woeful past, despite most independent experts not rating their chances and even the bookies making it pretty clear it ain't going to happen, our players put their trust in a Manager who has done it all- and that's the way it should be.

I mean its like expecting a schoolboy who does track not to believe he has a realistic chance of being an Olympic champion when the guy who discovered Bolt tells him he feels he has the potential to be a better than Bolt. Its a trust thing - and just like in the Armed Forces trust is a BIG thing in sport. If players or professional athletes don't perform the way they'd expect or been told they would, they almost always put the blame on their coaches. I mean how many times did most experts tell Murray he had the abilty to be a grand slam winner, and when he had a succession of near misses the thing he'd change/blame was his coach. Roll on a few coaches later and he's achieved his potential. During that time did you hear of Federer changing his??

Personally I think the problem we have now is since AW has been wrong so many times our players don't rate his word that much anymore- at least all the smart ones anyway- and that why almost all our long serving players wanted by good clubs end up leaving. The Cesc situation was my first real confirmation of this, just before he left he stopped making the rounds saying all the Bull you'd expect from a captain. Even on the field he didn't show he believed in the team anymore in those last days. Then you have Captain RVP who demanded the club show ambition before he'd sign- does that sound like someone with a 100 perecent trust in our world acclaimed manager?? I wonder why he didn't ask Fergie to make sure he signed a few world class players this season before joining so he'd be sure Man U would challenge for the title this season?? You see where I'm going.

Honestly no one intelligent or that has been around the game long enough can believe in this manager- and this has to be as a result of saying something at the start or every season and shifting the goalpost as soon as it becomes clear you are faltering. As far as AW is concerned, by the way he always measures success in January with his imaginary cups, he has been successful every single year at Arsenal. Do you currently feel like the fan of a successful club??

[Letters]

I can't even describe this as shocking because it's not. The manager has lost the dressing room. The standards at our club have eroded so badly that we've moved past the point of looking at how far behind the league leaders we are, we're now more concerned about clawing our way back to 4th place. It's beyond ridiculous and I look forwards to the day Wenger steps down because I'm beyond sick of the results, it's to the point of numbness now. The outrage just isn't there and I just want someone to change the record for fucks sake.

The part in bold is what I think too. We've got a decent group of players but they don't look like they're playing for each other. There's no leadership out there, no fight and, despite what Wenger says, no spirit. I don't believe Wenger can turn it round. It's sad. I will always be thankful for the heights he took us to but that was a long time ago now and while I think he's done well to keep us top 4 for as long as he has you just can't keep ON selling your best players year on year without replacing them and expect to stay there.

Now we have players openly questioning the club's ambition. Van Persie left for a club who could match his ambitions, who can blame him? Sagna's questioned out ambition. Theo is stalling over a contract because he's not happy with the position he's playing in. If Wenger's lost the dressing room then he needs to go. We have a squad who can finish top 4 but not playing like this and if they're not playing for Wenger then we need to find a manager they will play for.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

They say the can win the league, because our manager (who happens to be among a select few who have won it several times) tells them they can. Despite their woeful past, despite most independent experts not rating their chances and even the bookies making it pretty clear it ain't going to happen, our players put their trust in a Manager who has done it all- and that's the way it should be.

I mean its like expecting a schoolboy who does track not to believe he has a realistic chance of being an Olympic champion when the guy who discovered Bolt tells him he feels he has the potential to be a better than Bolt. Its a trust thing - and just like in the Armed Forces trust is a BIG thing in sport. If players or professional athletes don't perform the way they'd expect or been told they would, they almost always put the blame on their coaches. I mean how many times did most experts tell Murray he had the abilty to be a grand slam winner, and when he had a succession of near misses the thing he'd change/blame was his coach. Roll on a few coaches later and he's achieved his potential. During that time did you hear of Federer changing his??

Personally I think the problem we have now is since AW has been wrong so many times our players don't rate his word that much anymore- at least all the smart ones anyway- and that why almost all our long serving players wanted by good clubs end up leaving. The Cesc situation was my first real confirmation of this, just before he left he stopped making the rounds saying all the Bull you'd expect from a captain. Even on the field he didn't show he believed in the team anymore in those last days. Then you have Captain RVP who demanded the club show ambition before he'd sign- does that sound like someone with a 100 perecent trust in our world acclaimed manager?? I wonder why he didn't ask Fergie to make sure he signed a few world class players this season before joining so he'd be sure Man U would challenge for the title this season?? You see where I'm going.

Honestly no one intelligent or that has been around the game long enough can believe in this manager- and this has to be as a result of saying something at the start or every season and shifting the goalpost as soon as it becomes clear you are faltering. As far as AW is concerned, by the way he always measures success in January with his imaginary cups, he has been successful every single year at Arsenal. Do you currently feel like the fan of a successful club??

Nope, i feel like a fan whose club seems to be in a transition. The Lowest i have felt being a gooner.

[GP]

Reminds me of the Williams F1 team of the 90's.

Frank Williams always believed that his engineering was so good that the driver was of secondary importance. Eventually the team fell so far, they didn't win a race for 8 years.

[Letters]

I used to recall that the general remit of any Arsenal manager was to challenge for the league champonship and to keep your job you had to win an FA Cup or League Cup as a bare minimum, Wenger has certainly devalued the manager's job at AFC. What's saved Wengers job over the past 7 years the Champions League 3rd and 4th spot, but this season for the first time in a long time Wenger has worthy comeptition in Everton and the spuds and possible oustiders in Swansea and WBA. We used to be the envy of every club, first club to have under floor heating at Highbury, the first club to travel first class on the train whilist the others all went 2nd class, the first club to wear suits to matches!! Don't be fooled, Arsenal are a historic and prestigious club and I can assure you any top class manager would never turn down the offer to manage this once great club. We used to be called the bank of england due to financial the vast resources we had at our disposal, and now Wenger has turned us in to a club that should be happy to finish 4th to play in a competition we have no chance of winning. I don't get it. Oh how I wish we had the old Arsenal back.

With respect, that just isn't true. If you look back over our history, Arsenal have had 2 periods of big success, one in the 30s and the other in the 90s and early noughties.
That apart our success has been patchy. From the 50s to the 80s we won the following:

League Title 1989, 1971, 1953
FA Cup: 1979, 1971, 1950
League Cup: 1987
Fairs Cup: 1970

8 trophies in 40 years. Nothing at all from 1954 to 1969 inclusive.

I don't know how old you are but it's not true to say that the success from '89 onwards is typical of Arsenal's longer history. This sense of entitlement is quite a recent thing and it's partly because of Wenger, we'd do well to remember that before slating him. Yes, he needs to go now but to say he's devalued the manager's job at AFC, I can't agree with that. His record compares favourably with pretty much any other Arsenal manager you could mention.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The part in bold is what I think too. We've got a decent group of players but they don't look like they're playing for each other. There's no leadership out there, no fight and, despite what Wenger says, no spirit. I don't believe Wenger can turn it round. It's sad. I will always be thankful for the heights he took us to but that was a long time ago now and while I think he's done well to keep us top 4 for as long as he has you just can't keep ON selling your best players year on year without replacing them and expect to stay there.

Now we have players openly questioning the club's ambition. Van Persie left for a club who could match his ambitions, who can blame him? Sagna's questioned out ambition. Theo is stalling over a contract because he's not happy with the position he's playing in. If Wenger's lost the dressing room then he needs to go. We have a squad who can finish top 4 but not playing like this and if they're not playing for Wenger then we need to find a manager they will play for.

Spot on and even if you do sell then, don't sell then to your "rivals". Wenger once said "If you keep selling your good players, you can't call yourself a big club. This season it is looking more and more the truth.

Like you say we have players their who don't want to show pride or play for him. We have a captain who looks like he wants to be elsewhere.

Wenger was a excellent manager, now he is just a good one, and as good as he is, imo he is not good enough for us, if that makes sense.

He looks ill, he does not look motivated and even he looks like he don't want to be here anymore. Players like Gev and Theo are looking around and thinking wtf. Now i know Gev is poor alot of the time. IMO he is not motivated either. I believe it was him who was pissed off just after he signed, cause he was promised he play with Nasri and nasri was sold days later.

How many of the players we have are really ambitious?

[Letters]

So much standing around by this team in the attacking 1/3, and when they do run the movement off the ball was predictable and easy to defend

So static. No-one moving for each other, no-one helping each other (as NQ said, the 2nd goal was partly Jenkinson's fault but no bugger went to help him and he got caught).