Do you still want Wenger as Arsenal manager?

[Kano]

Instead of saying Wenger is directly linked to profit, I should have said he is the root of all of the profit we make.

The stadium move was down to his brilliance in the transfer market, and everything about our premier 'product' our business offers (the team) is down to his actions.

He's been here 14~ years and helped shape the club from top to bottom, in the way we're viewed as well as smaller things like fitness, style of play, attractiveness to fans and so on. He's far more influential than some marketing director who decides what stance Theo should be in as he poses for the new shirt.

Not sure how difficult it is to understand why a manager entirely in charge of a club's vision gets far more importance, influence and control than what you'd term a 'low level director' (those of which we also have, and probably decide what colour the urinals in the stadium toilets are).

well the marketing comparison was due to your initial statement, so in the context of your original post, it fits.

what you seemed to have misread was the point about his position in the grand scheme of decision making for the club strategy every year. if you read my posts you'd see i'd say that he is not in 'full control', as the other poster i was debating this with was suggesting. i'm not sure why you are stuck on the term 'lower level director' which in the pecking order of power at the club, he is. the ceo, the owner(s) and the chairman would control business decisions first and foremost whilst wenger would be asked his opinion.

he has influence and control of other areas of the club of course, that has been made very clear but anyone that thinks kroenke and usmanov would be handing over the full set of keys to wenger, are barmy.

[Power n Glory]

That's a fair and reasonable assessment which stands a chance of being right in the real world, unlike all this "madman" and "megalomaniac" BS. So if Wenger goes how much will really change? It's inevitable the new coach would have a lot less influence over the board, and if we accept the board is partially to blame for our problems then the upshot of Wenger's removal is what? The cancer will still exist at the heart of the club. I've started to review Wenger's comments this summer from a perspective other than, "Wenger Out!", and I think he's talking to us in the only way he can given undoubted constraints. Now I might be delusional myself but I'm going with my gut instinct and in the end I'm not for the board, I'm not for Wenger, I'm for the club - Arsenal. And it's my belief we have some seriously bad'uns in the boardroom now. Toffs who have already cashed in and shouldn't even be there plus an absent owner who knows fuck all about the club and wouldn't have invested at all if his intention wasn't to get back more than he's put in. Wenger's got much to answer for too, no doubt, but I'd trust him over these Etonian fucks and the American any day.

There is a flip side to this. What if the board have been taken in by Wenger's 'monorail' song and dance?

With his appointment, the infrastructure of the club has totally changed. They've taken risks with huge investments off the back of this one guy. They've put all their eggs in one basket and set out a long term plan that would take years to fulfil. Like the fans, like the players, they could have been sold a dream by Wenger and Dein. But as the years have passed, we've seen the players lose faith, now the fans are losing it, when will the board start to wobble? It will take them a long time to cut their ties with Wenger and they need him more than he needs them.

They can't screw him around and treat him like an idiot. If he walks and they're screwed. They know very little about football and depend heavily on Wenger's insight and knowledge. They screwed Dein over and lumped more of the responsibility on to Wenger. What do they know about the value of a player or wages? They can't even negotiate good sponsorship deals. It's probably why guys like Gazidis and Stan have been drafted in. They need more people that can help steer this ship and actually know what to do when Wenger is gone. If they sack him or rock the boat then they are screwed. Or so they think.

The board are just as incompetent. I don't think they've jumped on board to bleed the club dry and make a fast getaway. Some may be jumping ship now, but I wouldn't say it was the original plan. I just think they put too much trust in Wenger and as long as we're still competitive, they won't sack him. Well, the old board wouldn't. But, you do have a point. It is a serious worry to see what happens when Wenger is gone and silent Stan sitting in charge. But....Stan is a Sports man and owns Franchises in the good old USA. We can take comfort in that.

[Coney]

This but people seem to think if Wenger goes were going to get some world class manager who will spalash out Millions and Millions on Players.

Nothing much will change if Wenger goes unless this board goes too.

And there's the rub. If Wenger cannot buy top players because the board won't go along with the price/wages that are needed in order to get the player, replacing Wenger will make no difference. We could replace him with a manager who would be happy to buy the lesser players suggested but would that make the team more successful or leave us trying to get a Europa league place every year. I want us to be contending for the PL title and the CL - if a choice, I want the CL - and that means that we have to buy those players which, rumour has it, we can't get because the board won't sanction the wage they demand. I guess that might be a factor in Nasri not having signed.

[Power n Glory]

And there's the rub. If Wenger cannot buy top players because the board won't go along with the price/wages that are needed in order to get the player, replacing Wenger will make no difference. We could replace him with a manager who would be happy to buy the lesser players suggested but would that make the team more successful or leave us trying to get a Europa league place every year. I want us to be contending for the PL title and the CL - if a choice, I want the CL - and that means that we have to buy those players which, rumour has it, we can't get because the board won't sanction the wage they demand. I guess that might be a factor in Nasri not having signed.

I just don't think that's true. You've got the quote from a former board member talking about Wenger's natural cautious approach and Dein getting Wenger in a position to feel comfortable spending money. Since Dein has left, we've really gone down hill with the signings. It's not the board stopping Wenger from buying. How many quotes will it take to see this? Former board members, board members, Wenger himself.....we have direct quotes from these guys but people are choosing to believe a story from an unnamed source with no quotes.

If Wenger is powerless to change the wage structure, then how was he able to get Henry on that final big contract? Same goes for Fabregas? How comes we were able to buy Sol Campbell and put him on that £100 a week contract? The wages could be a problem but so far we're not even getting past the stage of agreeing a transfer fee.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I just don't think that's true. You've got the quote from a former board member talking about Wenger's natural cautious approach and Dein getting Wenger in a position to feel comfortable spending money. Since Dein has left, we've really gone down hill with the signings. It's not the board stopping Wenger from buying. How many quotes will it take to see this? Former board members, board members, Wenger himself.....we have direct quotes from these guys but people are choosing to believe a story from an unnamed source with no quotes.

If Wenger is powerless to change the wage structure, then how was he able to get Henry on that final big contract? Same goes for Fabregas? How comes we were able to buy Sol Campbell and put him on that £100 a week contract? The wages could be a problem but so far we're not even getting past the stage of agreeing a transfer fee.

Then you have Dein who says AW is the best man for the job still, Or is he just saying it to be nice in the problems we have.

On the 2nd boled part i agree with, but you have to remember we were at Highbury or have just moved, so bended the transfer structure was ok. No now where wages are silly and 100K is like a starting point these days. we can't offer 170k like a chelsea or the mancs or city.

[Power n Glory]

Then you have Dein who says AW is the best man for the job still, Or is he just saying it to be nice in the problems we have.

On the 2nd boled part i agree with, but you have to remember we were at Highbury or have just moved, so bended the transfer structure was ok. No now where wages are silly and 100K is like a starting point these days. we can't offer 170k like a chelsea or the mancs or city.

Of course Dein is going to say Wenger is the best man for the job. Dein and Wenger are friends. Wenger was out on Dein's yacht for his summer holiday. What else is he going to say? He doesn't like the old board, he introduced Stan and the Blob to Arsenal and who knows, maybe Dein is on his way back with Stan in charge.

For me, I don't think Wenger is right for the job millions or broke. Besides back room finance stuff, he makes too many tactical errors. I don't trust him to sort out the team even if we had millions to spare.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is a flip side to this. What if the board have been taken in by Wenger's 'monorail' song and dance?

With his appointment, the infrastructure of the club has totally changed. They've taken risks with huge investments off the back of this one guy. They've put all their eggs in one basket and set out a long term plan that would take years to fulfil. Like the fans, like the players, they could have been sold a dream by Wenger and Dein. But as the years have passed, we've seen the players lose faith, now the fans are losing it, when will the board start to wobble? It will take them a long time to cut their ties with Wenger and they need him more than he needs them.

They can't screw him around and treat him like an idiot. If he walks and they're screwed. They know very little about football and depend heavily on Wenger's insight and knowledge. They screwed Dein over and lumped more of the responsibility on to Wenger. What do they know about the value of a player or wages? They can't even negotiate good sponsorship deals. It's probably why guys like Gazidis and Stan have been drafted in. They need more people that can help steer this ship and actually know what to do when Wenger is gone. If they sack him or rock the boat then they are screwed. Or so they think.

The board are just as incompetent. I don't think they've jumped on board to bleed the club dry and make a fast getaway. Some may be jumping ship now, but I wouldn't say it was the original plan. I just think they put too much trust in Wenger and as long as we're still competitive, they won't sack him. Well, the old board wouldn't. But, you do have a point. It is a serious worry to see what happens when Wenger is gone and silent Stan sitting in charge. But....Stan is a Sports man and owns Franchises in the good old USA. We can take comfort in that.

Reasonably argued. You could be right, I could be right, more likely we're both partly right and partly way off the mark. That's the trouble with this club, they keep everything tight. But the question is, should Wenger keep his job? Which also implies another question, should he be sacked? The season has started, there's a few days left in the transfer window, the pressure is being piled on the club. Personally (I mean not that anybody of consequence is waiting to see how I jump, but I'm part of the mass called the fans and so my opinion is one of the drops that makes the ocean) I don't want to be part of that pressure for two reasons.

First, hitting the self destruct button now makes no sense at all. If Wenger was going to leave it should have been at the end of last season when the team scandalously collapsed. That was completely unacceptable and grounds for and manager to be removed. But it didn't happen and now is certainly not the time to be talking about changing the manager. I hear people say, I hope we lose to Udinese, I hope we sign no players and Wenger is sacked, I hope we finish outside the top four. This is frustration I suppose but it would also be totally counter-productive. Why are we pissed off? Because we can't win, because there's no stability. So when some fans go to far and say let's lose and let's kick the manager out and get anyone in, this isn't good for the club, this doesn't give us stability and this doesn't help us to win. These are the things we claim we want but blowing up the club is not going to get them.

Second, I don't like some of the bedfellows I'd have to lie with if I seriously joined the gathering witch hunt for Wenger's head. Poxy journalists, pathetic pundits, opposition fans looking for amusement, pretty much all the tossers in the world I wouldn't have a drink with. If Wenger has to go it should not be at the hands of pricks like this, run out in some media frenzy with the added indignity of some Arsenal fans running with the mob. If we join this we say Wenger is worthless and has done nothing for the club, we say he deserves to be humiliated, hounded, made fun of in the media, discussed like he's an idiot around breakfast tables staffed by slimy journalists who pretend to have an ounce as much dignity or integrity as Wenger. It's not just Wenger, I wouldn't see it happen to any good man because it's just wrong.

And say we did this, ran Wenger out of the club and destroyed him in the process. What if we woke up in the morning and discovered it had been the board all along? That these are the bastards who have exploited the club and run it into the ground for their own gain. I don't know for sure but which seems more reasonable, that Wenger would run the club down through sheer arrogance and the board would sit there and let him do it, or the board itself has run the club down because along came Stan and they saw their chance to cash in big time? Remember, Stan has been taking over this club for a long time, it didn't all start happening last year.

Like I said, I'm wrong, you're wrong, we're both partly right - time may tell. But I'm not jumping on any bandwagon in the meantime because I feel the club is in enough trouble already and could probably do better with my support right now rather than me sticking a boot in. Plus the guys genuinely seemed to try on Saturday and even though they fucked it up in the end I appreciated that effort. It's been a while coming but I'm not going to ignore it when it arrives.

[Letters]

So basically you say you want him sacked, but you're not actually sure.

He should have been sacked for the collapse at the end of last season.

So everytime you tell us you think he should be sacked, it's not really true.

No. I said he should have been sacked for the end of last season. I'll keep repeating that if you like.

Your argument makes more sense now, that's fair enough and up to you but you can't keep saying you said you wanted him sacked when actually you're not sure he should be.

Again, HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED FOR THE END OF LAST SEASON. Is that clear enough?

But I don't believe that the mess in the transfer market this summer is ALL his doing.
I don't believe that someone new will come in and we will inevitably do better or start throwing money around because I think there are other things going wrong that changing manager won't fix.
That's where I'm conflicted. There are some reasons why I think he should be sacked, other reasons why I'm not sure that changing manager would fix all our problems and might actually make things worse. And please don't say "how could it be worse?" We're going to be in a real battle for top 4 this year but not in a relegation battle.

Sounds to me like you're behind him and want him to stay.

It sounds like you don't understand my position at all. You seem to think that just because I think he should have been sacked for the collapse last season that means I can't defend him at all. I'll defend him against people who I think are overly disrespectful or criticise EVERYTHING he does or says.

[Syn]

He should have been sacked for the collapse at the end of last season.



No. I said he should have been sacked for the end of last season. I'll keep repeating that if you like.



Again, HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED FOR THE END OF LAST SEASON. Is that clear enough?

But I don't believe that the mess in the transfer market this summer is ALL his doing.
I don't believe that someone new will come in and we will inevitably do better or start throwing money around because I think there are other things going wrong that changing manager won't fix.
That's where I'm conflicted. There are some reasons why I think he should be sacked, other reasons why I'm not sure that changing manager would fix all our problems and might actually make things worse. And please don't say "how could it be worse?" We're going to be in a real battle for top 4 this year but not in a relegation battle.



It sounds like you don't understand my position at all. You seem to think that just because I think he should have been sacked for the collapse last season that means I can't defend him at all. I'll defend him against people who I think are overly disrespectful or criticise EVERYTHING he does or says.

To be honest, I don't know why you keep blindly praising Wenger. The fact that you don't think Wenger should've been sacked for the end of last season sums it all up really.

[fakeyank]

First, hitting the self destruct button now makes no sense at all. If Wenger was going to leave it should have been at the end of last season when the team scandalously collapsed. That was completely unacceptable and grounds for and manager to be removed. But it didn't happen and now is certainly not the time to be talking about changing the manager. I hear people say, I hope we lose to Udinese, I hope we sign no players and Wenger is sacked, I hope we finish outside the top four. This is frustration I suppose but it would also be totally counter-productive. Why are we pissed off? Because we can't win, because there's no stability. So when some fans go to far and say let's lose and let's kick the manager out and get anyone in, this isn't good for the club, this doesn't give us stability and this doesn't help us to win. These are the things we claim we want but blowing up the club is not going to get them.

Dont know about others but I am pissed because we dont TRY and I cant emphasize the TRY part enough. If we tried to win, made the necessary changes then I will stand by the manager, team and anyone in their right mind but when you dont see them giving a F, then the patience runs out. It would be different if this was a problem only this season.. Its been the same every season for the last 4-5 years. Big Changes need to be made and they cant come off the back of us scrapping a narrow win into CL. That would only give more credence to qualifying for CL is like a trophy BS by Wenger.

Every season, it is the same crap.. we will strenghten for sure. So far, we have sold our experienced and/or best players and not got anyone in... Why should I not be pissed? I am specially pissed now coz the transfer window closes in 10 days. Why is it that we fans have to compromise and be ok with the club taking us for a fool? When is the club going to run for the fans? I support all the negaitvity around the club right now.. if we want change from the boardroom down then this is needed!