Are the doubters wrong about Wenger?

[selassie]

Love his enthusiasm. Hate the fact he's doing his YTS starting for a top 4 club.

Oh keep up NQ, Wenger has used the first team to develop his youth projects for years.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I was meaning to say, good work keeping the wops out of Abyssinia

[Özim]

There is no comparison to a club like United spending money and a club like Chelsea with no constituency, no independent financing that would allow it to spend like United. Before Abramovich bought Chelsea it was well known that qualifying for the champions league in 2003 was not only a massive achieving it was financially essential as it was about to go down the plug hole. And if your asking me to respect a man for spending hundreds if millions at the whim of an oligarch and then win in the most turgid fashion, I cannot do that.

Ignoring that though, he won the UEFA Cup, CL and league titles at Porto, then at Inter a side who hadn't won the European cup for years and struggled every year he won the CL and as much as former managers might have spent (Italy isn't basking in money at the moment) they didn't win with those signings.

On that basis you still have to say he did a great job winning with those clubs, noone else has managed it or got anywhere near.

[Kano]

I'm totally convinced so I guess we'll move on. Attacking football and defensive football is down to a matter of preference. I wouldn't choose a defensive style because I like attacking football. But if you choose to build a solid defensive team to win titles with all the money the club gives you and it wins titles, that's the managers choice.

I hopped in on this debate when Herb mentioned the amount of money Jose has spent and the clubs he's been with and then mentioned Fergie as the better manager. As originally said, if we're going to make comparisons that way, then it's hard to ignore the resources Fergie has had access to.

glad to see i'm so persuasive.

[Özim]

Well it is relevant because your living off the finances you've helped generate and whilst United have spend a fair amount I'm pretty sure they haven't spent the money Chelsea have in the last ten years. Ferguson may have bought the odd 30 million signing a season, or two or three 15-20 million signings but he wasn't signing six-ten players in that price bracket like Chelsea have done.

The thing is why wouldn't you spend money if it's available to you, it would be foolish not to at those clubs.

[Power n Glory]

Well it is relevant because your living off the finances you've helped generate and whilst United have spend a fair amount I'm pretty sure they haven't spent the money Chelsea have in the last ten years. Ferguson may have bought the odd 30 million signing a season, or two or three 15-20 million signings but he wasn't signing six-ten players in that price bracket like Chelsea have done.

Why is how it's generated important? I just recently found out that Danny Fizsman used £50m of his own cash to invested in our squad and that helped us win trophies. That's a lot of money back then but does that taint us slightly?

Fergie spent money. Before Chelsea arrived they broke records bringing in Veron and Rude.

[Power n Glory]

glad to see i'm so persuasive.

Not!

But it's a healthy debate.

I still can't stand Fergie. Intimidating the refs and Fergie time won't be forgotten.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why is how it's generated important? I just recently found out that Danny Fizsman used £50m of his own cash to invested in our squad and that helped us win trophies. That's a lot of money back then but does that taint us slightly?

Fergie spent money. Before Chelsea arrived they broke records bringing in Veron and Rude.

It's important in terms of whether i should respect a manager's accomplishments or not, Ferguson spent the money that he contributed towards generating in the first place...Mourinho did not.

Plus there is an element of scale to it all, Ferguson broke the British Transfer record but he wasn't at a club that routinely bought it's entire team in a short period of time. The players best remembered at United will be the ones he developed himself and turned into Stars.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why is how it's generated important?

Seriously?

Apart from the sporting issues, there's the wider moral and legal issues. Simple question. If Jimmy Saville was still alive and somehow had escaped jail (and you can bet your life he would have done), if tomorrow he dumped so much money into Arsenal that we could buy any players we wanted, if we then went on to win a bunch of trophies. How do you feel? Are the trophies themselves compensation? Do you just turn a blind eye to the other stuff? I pick Jimmy Saville because he's the fashionable hate figure of the day. He's had the special media treatment that living people don't get, especially mega rich ones. But people are what people do, regardless of the whitewash. How are those barriers between the whole story and the convenient story constructed? How many compromises does it take to take certain aspects of the Abramovich story and spin those up while holding your nose and shutting your eyes to the inconvenient parts?

How the money is generated is one of the biggest problems the human race faces today isn't it? Of course we can't shout too loudly about it because, shamefully, we have a certain character connected to our own club. How much better could the game be if we didn't have these scum infesting it? How much better and open and competitive could it be if we didn't have the likes of Platini setting rules designed to facilitate service to his organisation and himself rather than service to the game? How many world cups in Qatar does it take to screw a sport forever?

The money absolutely matters. It replaces everything worthy with cynicism. Like Mourinho's brand of "football". Like a cancer. Just because this is the way things are done now doesn't make it right or even tolerable and I don't see any need at all to assign respect to shit like this. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't we reserve the deppest contempt for the chav project and the people behind it? I think yes.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The thing is why wouldn't you spend money if it's available to you, it would be foolish not to at those clubs.

I agree completley, but at the same time i think anything you acheive as a result is entirerly artificial and you don't deserve a scintilla of respect for it.
And don't get me wrong i would have the same opinion of Mourinho's "so-called" achievements at Chelsea even if he committed to playing expansive, attractive football. I slightly prefer Man City because the football they play is good to watch, but i have no more respect for someone like Mancini than i do for Mourinho.