West Ham away (PL) Match Reaction Thread

[Letters]

The general question is whether Wenger tolerates losing more easily today than he did in the past.

That's right. And I said that none of us really know what goes on inside his head. We can infer from what he says in interviews (although do you really think he tells the press exactly what he's thinking?) or what he looks like on the touchline when things are going awry (which is generally pretty sulky, but so do most managers). But actually, none of us know the man, none of us really know.

So I said that one man who does have more of an insight is David Dein - someone who has worked with him for years and still sees him regularly - and posted how I saw an interview with him where he gave some insight into Wenger's state of mind after defeats. You said "that was a long time ago" so I found the video and found it was an interview Dein gave 2 years ago ahead of Wenger's 1000th game. No, it isn't a tribute video - there is no montage of people saying nice things about Wenger. It's just an interview with David Dein, like I said. Yes, he's saying nice things about him but he clearly thinks highly of him. Yes, they're friends but that isn't new information, maybe they're friends because he thinks highly of him rather than the other way around.

I don't know what you mean by "He's still at the dinner", Dein makes it clear they DON't go to dinner if we've lost because of Wenger's mood - "we only go if we haven't lost". Your quote from Wenger (if it is a quote) backs that up. Dein also relates a conversation with Wenger about how he must have managed 2000 games in his career and asks Wenger what that means to him, Wenger replies "2000 sleepless nights". It's not 3 seconds of evidence, it's 20 minutes of insight into Wenger from someone who knows him well.

Dress it up how you like, it's a man who worked with him for years and is still good friends with him talking 2 years ago, not 10. He knows better than you or me how much Wenger cares. The issue isn't whether Wenger cares, he clearly does. The issue is whether he's able to push us on and it's increasingly clear he isn't.

[selassie]

Actions speak louder than words. The actions of Wenger is not of a man that is desperate to win and that should be the bare minimum requirement of the manager of Arsenal Football club. It's all very well David Dein saying that Wenger doesn't like losing, of course he doesn't, nobody likes losing but does Wenger have the absolute upmost desire to do all in his power to bring the glory days back to Arsenal. Wenger has everything he needs to succeed, if principles are holding him back then quite frankly that is a disgrace. Nobody is telling him to go out and buy a team of Messi's, nobody is telling him that we expect PL & CL titles every year, what people are telling him is that he is NOT doing enough and is NOT using his resources wisely to make Arsenal FC as competitive as they can be.

What gets me more than anything is his defiance and surprise at our routinely played out seasons, what does he expect? how can he honestly expect progress if he's not making fundamental changes himself?

The whole system at Arsenal at the top is rotten to the core, do they honestly expect the entire fanbase to sit their like lame ducks and accept it for what it is?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's right. And I said that none of us really know what goes on inside his head. We can infer from what he says in interviews (although do you really think he tells the press exactly what he's thinking?) or what he looks like on the touchline when things are going awry (which is generally pretty sulky, but so do most managers). But actually, none of us know the man, none of us really know.

So I said that one man who does have more of an insight is David Dein - someone who has worked with him for years and still sees him regularly - and posted how I saw an interview with him where he gave some insight into Wenger's state of mind after defeats. You said "that was a long time ago" so I found the video and found it was an interview Dein gave 2 years ago ahead of Wenger's 1000th game. No, it isn't a tribute video - there is no montage of people saying nice things about Wenger. It's just an interview with David Dein, like I said. Yes, he's saying nice things about him but he clearly thinks highly of him. Yes, they're friends but that isn't new information, maybe they're friends because he thinks highly of him rather than the other way around.

I don't know what you mean by "He's still at the dinner", Dein makes it clear they DON't go to dinner if we've lost because of Wenger's mood - "we only go if we haven't lost". Your quote from Wenger (if it is a quote) backs that up. Dein also relates a conversation with Wenger about how he must have managed 2000 games in his career and asks Wenger what that means to him, Wenger replies "2000 sleepless nights". It's not 3 seconds of evidence, it's 20 minutes of insight into Wenger from someone who knows him well.

Dress it up how you like, it's a man who worked with him for years and is still good friends with him talking 2 years ago, not 10. He knows better than you or me how much Wenger cares. The issue isn't whether Wenger cares, he clearly does. The issue is whether he's able to push us on and it's increasingly clear he isn't.

I am aware of how long ago this video was made, it seems to refer to me what he said about Wenger back in 2002 when he lost a champions league match to Auxerre in the champions league group stages and locked himself in his office instead of going out for his birthday celebrations.
What people here are saying is that they simply don't believe he takes defeats quite as personally now, this is not a slight on the man even....it's just a case that having become more accustomed to defeats it's impossible to think he reacts with that level of histrionics and this is borne out by his post match interviews. Yes we know that he might not say what he's thinking in post match interviews but you can't change body language, and his body language is that of someone who is indifferent to defeat and only seems to become agitated when journalist question his decision making/motivations.
Does that make him a terrible person?...No it makes him a product of his environment where there is a total disconnect between the management of the club by the board and the management of the club as a football team, and because the board don't want to manage the football side of things at all it's easy to defer it all to Wenger and say he's doing a fantastic job.
And with the best will in the world as you get older, with the only targets set are those by yourself it's unlikely that you can be as driven as you once were.....this is why i think it's not just Wenger that's the problem. There is not an environment at the club conducive to ambition or success.
If you are asking does Wenger want to win the title?....of course he does why wouldn't he?.....but does the idea of not winning haunt him to the point where he's driven to succeed at all costs....i don't see it.

[Letters]

I am aware of how long ago this video was made, it seems to refer to me what he said about Wenger back in 2002 when he lost a champions league match to Auxerre in the champions league group stages and locked himself in his office instead of going out for his birthday celebrations.

I literally have no idea how you get that from Dein talking in 2014 saying how they go (present tense) out after every (i.e, not a one off) home game.

Zim also said something above about him not being desperate to win at all costs and, for once, I agree with him. But I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't think he ever was like that. I don't think I'd want a manger who is - Mourinho is like that and while he tends to achieve short term success he usually leaves a train wreck behind. I do think Wenger is too much of an idealist and wants to do things the 'right' way, if he was a bit more pragmatic we'd probably have won more over the last decade.

He is what he is and my take is he's always been like this. Maybe he's lost a little bit sharpness, he is getting older, but I don't think he's radically changed since he came to us. In fact, if anything that is one of the problems. Football has changed around us and Wenger hasn't been able to adapt and keep up. Which doesn't mean everything he's done everything wrong but the things which gave us an edge aren't there any more, now everyone uses the same or better fitness regimes, everyone has a worldwide scouting network. Wenger's USP isn't so 'U' any more.

Bottom line, to suggest he's indifferent to defeat is ludicrous. I refer you again to Dein's comments, they surely carry more weight than us speculating about his body language.

[Kano]

Yes we know that he might not say what he's thinking in post match interviews but you can't change body language, and his body language is that of someone who is indifferent to defeat and only seems to become agitated when journalist question his decision making/motivations.

That’s a hell of leap of logic to make. If I was doing the same job for 20 + years and I had a bunch of shitrag journalists pushing and digging me, looking for a response to help their cause, I would treat them with just as much contempt. Just how LVG does too. It’s a joy to watch at times. Who are these annoying fucks questioning what I do, when all they are interested in is adding to the stress around me? I’ve been doing this for decades and I have to answer questions by this scum? That said, doesn’t excuse Wenger’s reactions to the fans, that he could and should be handling far better.

You can make other similar assumptions about his body language, that you adapt to dealing with the media on most occasions asking the same inane questions year after year after a match, win, lose or draw. You tap out, go through the motions of having to answer the questions of the masters at Sky. He is also a 66 year old man, probably even calmer than he was a decade ago, dealing with things differently. What you are suggesting is similar to a celebrity putting on their best face for an interview, showing the world how wonderful, cheery and a good person they are, when in fact behind the scenes they are a snivelling, drug-riddled piece of shit. If we base our opinion of a celebrity on those small promotional moments, or when they are performing their ‘talent’, we should be prepared to be proven completely wrong at some point.

What we see on TV isn't reality in any sensible shape or form. It's all a form of distorting the truth, be dramas, sport or the news. All we see are windows into these arenas, never the full picture and not enough to ever really know the inner-world of somebody.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Body language is not incredibly difficult to read, and there is no doubt you can tell when Wenger is agitated and when he isn't, and he is noticeably less agitated than he was.

And Letters what exactly is wrong with winning at all costs?...the mistake you make is that this necessitates playing football Mourinho style?. What you seem to believe is that Mourinho is a pragmatist, when he clearly isn't....he is not that flexible with his style.....the idea that the less you have possession in big games the less likely you are to make mistakes......and that inflexibility means he isn't quite as effective a coach as he was five-ten years ago.

Winning at all costs, means identifying the best players to win games in all different sets of possible adversities you can think of, pace, strength, character....and yes sometimes a little bit of brutality/gamesmanship. These are qualities that were there under previous Wenger sides.

The example i used in regards to Auxere game was a paradigm case of how Wenger according to Dein could react to defeat, i wasn't inferring it only happened the once.

I just have cause to doubt that he reacts that way now....and Kano of course his age is a factor it does have a deteriorating effect on his motivations, that and i have said the atmosphere he finds himself in.

[GP]

I literally have no idea how you get that from Dein talking in 2014 saying how they go (present tense) out after every (i.e, not a one off) home game.

Zim also said something above about him not being desperate to win at all costs and, for once, I agree with him. But I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't think he ever was like that. I don't think I'd want a manger who is - Mourinho is like that and while he tends to achieve short term success he usually leaves a train wreck behind. I do think Wenger is too much of an idealist and wants to do things the 'right' way, if he was a bit more pragmatic we'd probably have won more over the last decade.

He is what he is and my take is he's always been like this. Maybe he's lost a little bit sharpness, he is getting older, but I don't think he's radically changed since he came to us. In fact, if anything that is one of the problems. Football has changed around us and Wenger hasn't been able to adapt and keep up. Which doesn't mean everything he's done everything wrong but the things which gave us an edge aren't there any more, now everyone uses the same or better fitness regimes, everyone has a worldwide scouting network. Wenger's USP isn't so 'U' any more.

Bottom line, to suggest he's indifferent to defeat is ludicrous. I refer you again to Dein's comments, they surely carry more weight than us speculating about his body language.

Nah he went to the beach once. Clearly he doesn't care.

[Letters]

And Letters what exactly is wrong with winning at all costs?

Ask Portsmouth. (Dein also talks about our finances during the stadium move).

I'm not talking about football style, but Wenger has always looked longer term and tried to balance short term competitiveness with long term financial stability. And I agree that at times he has erred on the side of caution. Dein talks about Wenger's approach in the transfer market too.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again unless you are being a pedant (which you increasingly are....i know i asked you yesterday if you suffered from Aspergers jokingly, now i am genuinely concerned) winning at all costs doesn't necessarily mean having to bankrupt your club in order so to do.

It means approaching each game and assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your opposition in order to use your strengths to overcome them.

It doesn't mean micro managing the game to the point of Mourinho where he used to castigate his players for showing a bit of skill.

But this is an aside, the point is that Wenger does not appear to be anywhere near as driven as he was before, i have stated that i think this down due to the circumstances he finds himself in and his age. These things can be gradual and subconscious, I am not saying Wenger is wilfully not putting the effort in.

[Kano]

Body language is not incredibly difficult to read, and there is no doubt you can tell when Wenger is agitated and when he isn't, and he is noticeably less agitated than he was.

I just have cause to doubt that he reacts that way now....and Kano of course his age is a factor it does have a deteriorating effect on his motivations, that and i have said the atmosphere he finds himself in.

Body language is also quite easy to misread too, unless you have studied psychology to a particularly high level. You can tell when someone is agitated but the reasons why remain elusive. But body language is far easier to read and assume if it helps add to an argument. Age can affect motivations but I haven't seen anyone question the passion of managers of a similar age. That's a big problem in this country - unless we see someone literally bursting their blood vessells, then we assume the blood runs cold in their veins.