Chelsea v Arsenal 13:30 Sunday 20th January SS1

[McNamara That Ghost...]

True but Man U have only played one game more than us and even if we added three points now we'd be 18 points behind then and 18 points ahead of the relegation zone.

The CL though doesn't at this stage reflect the quality of a side as one can have an easyish group (like us) and another team can get a much tougher group with quality teams like City, 2 of the teams in their group have got a decent chance of winning the whole thing.

Yes they've spent more money, but looking at it from a purely football side (ie quality of the team/squad) they are a better outfit.

And Reading have played two games more than us. Also, you could say we finished 19 points behind Man Utd last season so the difference between the two sides is much the same as it was (in terms of relative to the two teams, it might be that other teams have superceded us).

I don't think Ollie was saying Citeh aren't better than us but just that looking at it from a points perspective doesn't tell you anything in isolation and is all rather arbitrary. All you're doing in 'defending' them is admitting they don't have enough to compete with the very best, in European competition which I presume is what you think of us too. That comes as a huge downer on their overall ability when it comes to evaluating them. Plus, we're closer to Citeh now than where we finished last season so are we also right to assume you think we've draw closer to them this season? I would suspect you don't think that, in spite of this points 'point'.

[Niall_Quinn]

City are gypo ****s.

[Kano]

The CL though doesn't at this stage reflect the quality of a side as one can have an easyish group (like us) and another team can get a much tougher group with quality teams like City, 2 of the teams in their group have got a decent chance of winning the whole thing.

oh i disagree with that, particularly when the margin between the two sides over two games is remarmably wide. both the madrid games, unsurprisingly, showed a gulf between the spanish and english champions and of course we saw dortmund absolutely embarrass city in their own ground, then beat them with their second team. ajax even run rings round them in holland and at the eithad. when the control over the opposition is so apparent (as we have seen ourselves in seasons past when arsenal walk over teams from much lesser leagues), it gives a clear indication of the quality of each team.

[Özim]

And Reading have played two games more than us. Also, you could say we finished 19 points behind Man Utd last season so the difference between the two sides is much the same as it was (in terms of relative to the two teams, it might be that other teams have superceded us).

I don't think Ollie was saying Citeh aren't better than us but just that looking at it from a points perspective doesn't tell you anything in isolation and is all rather arbitrary. All you're doing in 'defending' them is admitting they don't have enough to compete with the very best, in European competition which I presume is what you think of us too. That comes as a huge downer on their overall ability when it comes to evaluating them. Plus, we're closer to Citeh now than where we finished last season so are we also right to assume you think we've draw closer to them this season? I would suspect you don't think that, in spite of this points 'point'.

I think you need to look at the table as it stands as points in the bag are always worth more, tomorrows round of games may make the points difference worse. As for last season, well that was at the end of the season, we've still got another 3 1/2 months so you'd argue we're doing worse, if anything Man U tend to get better in the 2nd half of the season.

European competition is a bit hit and miss IMO, we had great teams that failed in Europe for some reason or other despite being arguably the best around....it's more of a lottery. We may be closer to City but again it's not the end of the season there's a long way to go and they it's true they have not been as good as they were last season this season either.

[Özim]

oh i disagree with that, particularly when the margin between the two sides over two games is remarmably wide. both the madrid games, unsurprisingly, showed a gulf between the spanish and english champions and of course we saw dortmund absolutely embarrass city in their own ground, then beat them with their second team. ajax even run rings round them in holland and at the eithad. when the control over the opposition is so apparent (as we have seen ourselves in seasons past when arsenal walk over teams from much lesser leagues), it gives a clear indication of the quality of each team.

As I said to Maccy the CL is a bit of a lottery (as we discovered in our hayday), the best teams don't always win. What I will say is that Madrid are an exceptional side with fantastic players and I'd expect them to beat City, Dortmund have been a surprise to all but clearly possess a lot of quality as well.

They didn't perform too well in Europe though they did run Madrid close in the away game, but then they're not as strong as last season either.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think you need to look at the table as it stands as points in the bag are always worth more, tomorrows round of games may make the points difference worse. As for last season, well that was at the end of the season, we've still got another 3 1/2 months so you'd argue we're doing worse, if anything Man U tend to get better in the 2nd half of the season.

European competition is a bit hit and miss IMO, we had great teams that failed in Europe for some reason or other despite being arguably the best around....it's more of a lottery. We may be closer to City but again it's not the end of the season there's a long way to go and they it's true they have not been as good as they were last season this season either.

Why do I need to look at the table any more than I already do? I've already said it doesn't make any difference to me if we're 12 or 21 behind, it's still far too much either way. And it's a myth Man Utd do that much better in the second half of the season, quite regularly they have gained more points in the first half of the season but only by a minimal amount - they usually do as well in both the first 19 and last 19 of the season.

It's not a lottery if the same outcome keeps emerging, we know that more than most, surely?

Basically you're saying make a judgement between us and Man Utd and us and relegation now but we need to wait to make a judgement on us and the team likely to finish second. Makes no sense at all.

[Özim]

Why do I need to look at the table any more than I already do? I've already said it doesn't make any difference to me if we're 12 or 21 behind, it's still far too much either way. And it's a myth Man Utd do that much better in the second half of the season, quite regularly they have gained more points in the first half of the season but only by a minimal amount - they usually do as well in both the first 19 and last 19 of the season.

It's not a lottery if the same outcome keeps emerging, we know that more than most, surely?

Basically you're saying make a judgement between us and Man Utd and us and relegation now but we neeed to wait to make a judgement on us and the team likely to finish second. Makes no sense at all.

When I said you I wasn't talking about you specifically, just that this has to be considered

I don't think it's a myth, over the years they come on very strong many times in the 2nd half of the season and caught teams ahead of them regularly.

Well just look at Chelsea last season, they weren't the best team, this wasn't even the best Chelsea team and yet they won it. The CL isn't always won by the best team, luck certainly plays it's part and because it's not played every week it's quite conceivable that when a game comes up you're out of form. There's also other factors such as being inhibited due to fear of conceding and being placed in a tough group, it's no like the league where you play week in week out and feel like mistakes can be erased by some good form.

Very good teams win the CL, but it's not always the best teams, the group stages as has been highlighted this season can be somewhat unfair, with some teams getting an easy ride and other getting a far harder time due to a ridiculous seeding system.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It is a myth Zim, I posted on GW two seasons ago a comparison of how many points Man Utd gain from the first 19 to the last 19 and it is a lot, lot closer than gets portrayed. What they are is consistent in keeping their level across a season when one team quite often falters and that gives the perception they are doing 'better' than they did in the first half. Of course that is a skill in itself, to be able to do that when the season is nearing the end but in terms of outright points comparison - multiple season they have got more at the start.

Yes Chelsea won the Champions League when they possibly should not have but they have for a long time been at the level of making it quite far in the competition. However you're just picking out one example and making it the trend - what about when Barcelona have won it three times and when Man Utd won it the most recent time? They were the best teams in Europe at that point and they went on to win it.

I don't think the seeding system is ridiculous at all, nor unfair.

[Özim]

It is a myth Zim, I posted on GW two seasons ago a comparison of how many points Man Utd gain from the first 19 to the last 19 and it is a lot, lot closer than gets portrayed. What they are is consistent in keeping their level across a season when one team quite often falters and that gives the perception they are doing 'better' than they did in the first half. Of course that is a skill in itself, to be able to do that when the season is nearing the end but in terms of outright points comparison - multiple season they have got more at the start.

Yes Chelsea won the Champions League when they possibly should not have but they have for a long time been at the level of making it quite far in the competition. However you're just picking out one example and making it the trend - what about when Barcelona have won it three times and when Man Utd won it the most recent time? They were the best teams in Europe at that point and they went on to win it.

I don't think the seeding system is ridiculous at all, nor unfair.

It's not a 1 off, there's Porto, Liverpool, Chelsea.

Barcelona seem to have got the hang of the CL however, before their last three victories however they'd only won it once when it was the European cup, I think it takes more than being the best team to win it, there's other factors perhaps style of play and an ability to play with freedom as you do in the league.

The seeing system basically seeds some weaker teams above stronger ones, this makes no sense at all, the best teams should always be seeded highest if you have a seeding system, that's how it works in other sports, seeing is based on the years performance generally.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Porto deserve more respect I think as they did win their league too, as did Barcelona, Man Utd and Inter. To go back to Porto and Liverpool is to go back from when we last won the league and FA Cup, which would seem quite a long time ago now.

I don't see what Barcelona only winning it once as the European Cup really matters.

Anyway, you talk about the system of it (the seeding) being unfair, the what would you do to make it fair?

I should split this in to another thread really.