Summer Transfer Misery 2017/18

[Niall_Quinn]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=28nXNHyPUgA

G...... ollum.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think what Letters is trying to say is that there are people on here that are so pissed off with him now that they need to empty their bladder on his past achievements. Make it seem like they were either fortuitous or not particularly that impressive.

[Letters]

So fucking what if Wenger ruled the roost in a bygone era? What relevance does that have to what's happening now?
It doesn't, really. But if people start spouting nonsense about how he's the worst manager we've ever had or start questioning whether he was ever any good then I will challenge that. And, for balance, I'd challenge anyone who said that Wenger should currently stay our manager [I'll leave a gap here where you can call me a liar if you like].
This is a board for debating stuff, isn't it? If I see something I disagree with then I have every right to challenge it. Otherwise what is the point of this place?

[Letters]

It's just the same tired old excuse, he used to be able to do it so he should be forgiven for not being able to do it now. Bollocks.
Which is not what I'm arguing, by the way.
I'm simply arguing that he used to be able to do it, others seem to be questioning that even.
And yes, "so what"? What matters is can he do it now. And it's increasingly clear he can't.
But as I said this is a board for debate and when people start to question whether he was ever any good I'll say what I think.
And much to both our surprise, you agreed with my assessment of that.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think what Letters is trying to say is that there are people on here that are so pissed off with him now that they need to empty their bladder on his past achievements. Make it seem like they were either fortuitous or not particularly that impressive.

Fuck him and his past achievements. A sellout is a sellout. The only thing I'll countenance in regard to the old, weak fool is it's possible, possible, he thought he was doing the right thing. But many who choose the easiest and most profitable path make the same claim.

Nah. Fuck him.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Fuck him and his past achievements. A sellout is a sellout. The only thing I'll countenance in regard to the old, weak fool is it's possible, possible, he thought he was doing the right thing. But many who choose the easiest and most profitable path make the same claim.

Nah. Fuck him.

Are you talking about Letters?

[Niall_Quinn]

It doesn't, really. But if people start spouting nonsense about how he's the worst manager we've ever had or start questioning whether he was ever any good then I will challenge that. And, for balance, I'd challenge anyone who said that Wenger should currently stay our manager [I'll leave a gap here where you can call me a liar if you like].
This is a board for debating stuff, isn't it? If I see something I disagree with then I have every right to challenge it. Otherwise what is the point of this place?

Yes he is the worst manager we ever had. He's also the best manager we ever had. And there's where the problem lives. He's now, EASILY, the worst to ever manage Arsenal. EASILY. I mean where's the debate on this. Look at what he's doing. So what if he used to be the best? So what?

[Niall_Quinn]

Are you talking about Letters?

No.

Ox.

[Niall_Quinn]

Which is not what I'm arguing, by the way.
I'm simply arguing that he used to be able to do it, others seem to be questioning that even.
And yes, "so what"? What matters is can he do it now. And it's increasingly clear he can't.
But as I said this is a board for debate and when people start to question whether he was ever any good I'll say what I think.
And much to both our surprise, you agreed with my assessment of that.

I don't disagree with your past assessment of Wenger. But I do disagree that it should be in any way a mitigating factor in the horrendous fuckup he's engaged in now. He's the driving force behind this fuckup. Limp dick fucks like Kroenke who use money to replace their manhood, in an age where money is religion, they only have power when men with influence do their bidding and accept their bribes. Kroenke can do NOTHING on his own because he's a shitty arse fag nobody who just happens to have stolen a few quid. Hell, I could blow that cunt over and piss on him if the money was taken out of the equation. And I could sit down and beat him mentally too. All he has is his fucking money. And his stooges. Wenger is one of those.

[Power n Glory]

This is a great post btw, I'm glad someone remembers how it actually was, for me it was the contrast from successful coach and the total transformation that followed, the way he seemed to make illogical decisions and insisted on the wrong player combinations and putting square pegs into round holes.

It just didn't sit right with me, 2 years before that the football was exhilerating and everything about the club was exciting, such a dramatic change in formula was one of the oddest things I've seen in football, to never return to your winning formula despite years of failure with your new methods is even odder, you'd have thought he might have tried, ironically he's seemingly purposefully resisted trying that formula, refusing to buy leaders or to buy tough, physical players and defenders who can primarily defend.

I remember. We never even used to call the post game threads 'match reaction' it was 'player ratings' and we all used to give scores to the players with a brief summary on performances. We'd have way more varied discussions on GW. But it got to the point where we'd see the same players have poor performances or players played out of position and the focus started to go on why the manager kept on picking certain players. The post game thread stopped being about analysing performances and rating players. It morphed into posters venting after a poor performance. Letters and others would always say people are moaning too much and being 'doom and gloom' merchants, kneejerk reactions, etc, but I'd say something as simply as changing the post game thread name to 'match reaction' stopped us all from looking through the teams performance on a whole and picking out the one or two good performances even on a shit day.

But anyway, that's a side note. It's been frustrating to watch this team and I can't understand why Wenger hasn't worked out how to play certain players. I've never understood why he'd never pair Cesc and Rosicky in the middle with a strong DM or Nasri and Cesc with a strong DM in a 4-3-3. If he was looking at how Barca played, we needed a least two technical ball players in the middle of the park to create our version of Xavi and Iniesta. Instead he'd play Nasri or Rosicky on the wing and have two technically limited players behind Cesc such as Denilson, Song, Diaby and Flamini. It has taken him an age to figure out that you need two midfield wizards to play a 3 man midfield the way we want. But then again, he still hasn't worked it out. It's damn shame we had to lose both Cesc and Nasri before ever seeing Rosicky play CM and by then his career was finished. Same goes for finally seeing Cazorla as a CM. He can finally stumble on to a good thing but still not know what sort of player he should buy. He should have gone all out for Kante over Xhaka and should have been looking into Santi's understudy immediately. Instead, he's still trying to play Ramsey as a CM along with Xhaka.

[Niall_Quinn]

I remember. We never even used to call the post game threads 'match reaction' it was 'player ratings' and we all used to give scores to the players with a brief summary on performances. We'd have way more varied discussions on GW. But it got to the point where we'd see the same players have poor performances or players played out of position and the focus started to go on why the manager kept on picking certain players. The post game thread stopped being about analysing performances and rating players. It morphed into posters venting after a poor performance. Letters and others would always say people are moaning too much and being 'doom and gloom' merchants, kneejerk reactions, etc, but I'd say something as simply as changing the post game thread name to 'match reaction' stopped us all from looking through the teams performance on a whole and picking out the one or two good performances even on a shit day.

But anyway, that's a side note. It's been frustrating to watch this team and I can't understand why Wenger hasn't worked out how to play certain players. I've never understood why he'd never pair Cesc and Rosicky in the middle with a strong DM or Nasri and Cesc with a strong DM in a 4-3-3. If he was looking at how Barca played, we needed a least two technical ball players in the middle of the park to create our version of Xavi and Iniesta. Instead he'd play Nasri or Rosicky on the wing and have two technically limited players behind Cesc such as Denilson, Song, Diaby and Flamini. It has taken him an age to figure out that you need two midfield wizards to play a 3 man midfield the way we want. But then again, he still hasn't worked it out. It's damn shame we had to lose both Cesc and Nasri before ever seeing Rosicky play CM and by then his career was finished. Same goes for finally seeing Cazorla as a CM. He can finally stumble on to a good thing but still not know what sort of player he should buy. He should have gone all out for Kante over Xhaka and should have been looking into Santi's understudy immediately. Instead, he's still trying to play Ramsey as a CM along with Xhaka.

Well I'm not so sure about any of that, tbf. Maybe, maybe not. It's an areas where the divide between fans and professionals ought to be observed. However, at this particular club, I'd give more credence to the views of the fans than that of the manager, because we have so much evidence.

[Power n Glory]

Fuck him and his past achievements. A sellout is a sellout. The only thing I'll countenance in regard to the old, weak fool is it's possible, possible, he thought he was doing the right thing. But many who choose the easiest and most profitable path make the same claim.

Nah. Fuck him.

I hear the anger. On some days I feel the same. It's hard to separate the Wenger of the past from what we're seeing today because it's led us to this.

[Niall_Quinn]

'At the end of the window, reviewing all activity, we have once again improved the depth and quality of the squad,' Gazidis wrote in an email sent to players and staff on Friday via the Daily Star.

'Everything is coloured by results... a positive performance at Liverpool would have coloured this transfer window very differently,' he continued.

'We have had a poor start to the season but have the quality to turn it around and turn around performances and compete for the title'.

Ivan the Lizard.

[Penguin]

"a positive performance at Liverpool would have coloured this transfer window very differently"

Of course it would have :lol:

[Gooner23]

Just read about that.

He's either thick and totally out of touch with reality, or (as I suspect) towing the party line as instructed by his superiors Kroenke and Wenger.

Either grow a pair or fuck off you spineless coward.

[Marc Overmars]

Yes, everything is knee-jerk, Ivan.

Cunt.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This is for Zim when he deigns to reappear on here,

This is why I don't agree with you about making people like Wenger or Gazidis meet fans groups. Read the bullshit both have come out with and the more than understandable reaction to it of people on here. Do you honestly think they'd be any more honest with fans groups?. No it's more spin and more bullshit. We aren't going to get questions answered because principally neither even acknowledge that there was a problem.

Yes it would have been different, but to suggest people would have been happier with our transfer dealings if we hadn't lost at Liverpool is totally disingenuous.

[GP]

Ivan should be killed. Or sent to The Wall.

[Munchies]

Ornstein posted a long post about our Summer

https://twitter.com/bbcsport_david/status/904618820073132032

What a load of BS. Club is run by cunts. Belelrin can fuck right off too

[Niall_Quinn]

This is for Zim when he deigns to reappear on here,

This is why I don't agree with you about making people like Wenger or Gazidis meet fans groups. Read the bullshit both have come out with and the more than understandable reaction to it of people on here. Do you honestly think they'd be any more honest with fans groups?. No it's more spin and more bullshit. We aren't going to get questions answered because principally neither even acknowledge that there was a problem.

Yes it would have been different, but to suggest people would have been happier with our transfer dealings if we hadn't lost at Liverpool is totally disingenuous.

It's not the answers that are important, it's the questions and the removal of the media filter that pitches softball questions that lets these liars off the hook.

But anyway, now we know. Ivan has spoken. Wenger's the best manager we could find and the transfer window showed we are ambitious. Great news.

[Özim]

Bit of a Q&A with Wenger, talks about transfers etc interesting answer to this one about the CL:


Q: But not having won it really bothers you?


Wenger: No.


He's clearly not bothered about the CL, unlike Ferguson for whom it was the holy grail until he won it. How can you not be bothered about winning the biggest prize in club football (he's obvioulsy content with getting thrashed in the last 16 then I guess or even just qualifying for the CL)?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41145505
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41145505)

[AFC Leveller]

Ornstein posted a long post about our Summer

https://twitter.com/bbcsport_david/status/904618820073132032

What a load of BS. Club is run by cunts. Belelrin can fuck right off too

Interesting read.

as some have been saying, the problems run much deeper than on the pitch. We are a mess and should go on Jeremy Kyle to sort it out.

[Marc Overmars]

Interesting read.

as some have been saying, the problems run much deeper than on the pitch. We are a mess and should go on Jeremy Kyle to sort it out.

From reading that it sounds like the manager's faith in his players is not reciprocated.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If we think he's bullshitting about one thing. There's no reason to suppose he isn't about another thing

Man like Wenger is never going to admit that he feels his career has been in anyway inadequate or publically acknowledge that he hasn't achieved all he wants to. But apart from the fear of retirement, there's no doubt that he believes if he retired now it would be not as successful as he wanted.

He's not in the champions league, if he accepts that the failure to win the thing is a failure. He has to doubly acknowledge that failing to qualify for it is doubly so.

[Letters]

He's clearly not bothered about the CL, unlike Ferguson for whom it was the holy grail until he won it. How can you not be bothered about winning the biggest prize in club football (he's obvioulsy content with getting thrashed in the last 16 then I guess or even just qualifying for the CL)?
Of course he's bothered. :lol:
A childish "No, didn't want to anyway!" should fool no-one.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Interesting read.

as some have been saying, the problems run much deeper than on the pitch. We are a mess and should go on Jeremy Kyle to sort it out.

Sounds to me like either they had a plan yet ballsed it up by relying on one man who is known for not being proactive left to his own devices to carry them out.

Or that this was a totally disorganised shit show and this whole thing has been made up to excuse the absolute up fuckery

[Power n Glory]

:lol: This keeps on getting better.

The transfer window was a failure. But I have to honest, before the season kicked off, I was adamant that we shouldn’t sell Alexis. If we were able looked like we were able to compete for the title and Alexis and Ozil were playing for the manager, I’d back the club not selling. But we should have sold off the crap and brought in more quality regardless. The window has been a failure.

But I agree with this.



But Gazidis claimed that keeping hold of Ozil and Sanchez “was a clear statement of our ambitions and should help refute suggestions we are just about the money. That is simply nonsense.”

The club were in a no win situation. Some bullshit story about us not having money on the eve transfer deadline day starts doing the rounds on Twitter just as we’re considering selling Sanchez.

Where did that bullshit come from? I thought that leak would have come from the club to cover for Wenger but I don’t think so. Something else is going on. Also, it sounds like we actually bid £92m for Lemar. Reading between the lines, it says we had money to spend and kept the players we needed despite Wenger hinting at the Board could overrule his decision and sell them. Wenger is a sneaky guy. It reaffirms what fans think about the Board only being interested in money and would have provided a perfect excuse at the end of the season when we fail again. Ivan, being an even bigger sneaky shit is pushing the focus back onto the pitch and results. That’s my theory. All smoke and mirrors.

[AFC Leveller]

Kroenke is so desperate to win the title but will not spend a penny out of his pocket!

It looks like the club will be in a mess for the foreseeable future.

[Letters]

I don't disagree with your past assessment of Wenger. But I do disagree that it should be in any way a mitigating factor in the horrendous fuckup he's engaged in now.
I'm not actually arguing his past successes do mitigate what he's doing right now.
I'm just arguing against the assertion that he was never that good in the first place.
Zim questions how someone supposedly so good can now be so bad and his conclusion is that maybe he was never that good in the first place.
My take is that Wenger has simply stood still while all around him has changed. If the champion high jumper before the Fosby Flop was popularised refused to adopt the new technique then he would start to get beaten by younger athletes whose technique allows them to jump higher. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great jumper back in the day though. Neither does it mitigate his failure to adopt the new technique.

[Özim]

Of course he's bothered. :lol:
A childish "No, didn't want to anyway!" should fool no-one.

Why wouldn't you say your bothered, it's the logical thing surely to say yes it's it something I think about as I would like to win it once in my career (standard fair for a manager at a big club).

Sometimes I just don't get the guy, well quite often actually.

As for his interest in Mbappe, it's as concrete as his interest in all those other worldies we "could have signed".

[Letters]

Is it the logical thing to player Liverpool with Giroud and Lacazette on the bench and Welbeck up front?
I increasingly don't get him either but I don't believe for one moment that his failure in the CL doesn't bother him.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why wouldn't you say your bothered, it's the logical thing surely to say yes it's it something I think about as I would like to win it once in my career (standard fair for a manager at a big club).

Sometimes I just don't get the guy, well quite often actually.

As for his interest in Mbappe, it's as concrete as his interest in all those other worldies we "could have signed".

Because he's at the end of his career and he probably knows he will never win it.

What's the point of admitting a regret you realise you will never be able to rectify.

[GP]

Is it the logical thing to player Liverpool with Giroud and Lacazette on the bench and Welbeck up front?
I increasingly don't get him either but I don't believe for one moment that his failure in the CL doesn't bother him.

Even defeat or setback bothers him. You can see him growing visibly frustrated because there's nothing he can do about it.

[Özim]

It is a fair question and I've already given my take on that. Quite simply, he has got older, he hasn't been able or willing to adapt as the game has changed around him.
But that doesn't mean that he wasn't, in the early days, a revolutionary who transformed the club.

It's like watching the original 1933 King Kong film now and saying "The effects are crap!". Well, sure, they look pretty crappy NOW, because things have moved on and we are used to better. But at the time they were thought amazing. If a director kept making films using those techniques then they would look increasingly bad compared with films made using modern techniques. And that's where Wenger has failed, his once revolutionary ideas about fitness, diet and training are no longer revolutionary. His once revolutionary knowledge of the worldwide game which meant he could cherry pick talent before other clubs even knew about players is no longer revolutionary. The other clubs have caught up and arguably surpassed us in these areas.

I think it's too simplistic to say that it's been 7 years of success and 13 of failure. In the middle phase of the 3 I outlined above I think he did pretty well when money was fairly tight and the billionaires were running amok to keep us relatively competitive. He failed to land another title, maybe without the Eduardo leg break he would have, we will never know. But I don't regard those years as an abject failure. I think he deserved a chance when the money became available to use it to try and compete again. The signings of Ozil, Cech and Sanchez did seem to indicate a change of direction, the FA Cup was a welcome relief after so many trophyless years. But he has failed to push us on and it's increasingly clear he can't.

Wenger is a man making stop motion films in a world of CGI. But back in the day his stop-motion films were brilliant, he was brilliant. He had flaws, sure, every manager does. And I don't believe you or anyone else was particularly prescient about those, his failure as a tactician is not new news. But comments about him being the worst manager Arsenal have had are pretty silly.

I don't think your comparison works as one is technology based and cannot change, whereas the other is a human being (supposedly a very intelligent one) who has a brain and can think and adapt to his environment.

Wenger should be able to adapt, in fact he'd probably only need to look at the winning formula he had before and apply some of those principles to get closer certainly, there's not real reason we can't be successful as we have the resources, problem is the man continues with failed methods he never even used when he was sucessful, this is small weak players, 5 yard passing football, no leaders, lots of deadwood, no real desire on the pitch and no discipline.

These aren't things that were prevalent when we were winning at all, quite the opposite, these are things he's brought in after that, when none of the leadership he inherited was there anymore (he'd sold or got rid of all of those). In that sense did the fact he had Adams, Keown, Seaman, Bergkamp and the fact they could pass on their knowledge to the likes of Vieira, Toure etc play a major part in his success (i.e essentially an outside influence), we know his knowledge of the French market obviously also played a part, but this wasn't a skill as such, that was just the fact he was French and followed the French league very closely, more closely than others.

[Özim]

Because he's at the end of his career and he probably knows he will never win it.

What's the point of admitting a regret you realise you will never be able to rectify.

He could win it if he tried hard enough and did the right things, the fact he would think he can't suggest he should know he shouldn't even be here. We should be aiming to win the league and/or the CL, if we have a manager who doesn't believe he can surely that's a problem, maybe not to our club having said that.

[Özim]

Is it the logical thing to player Liverpool with Giroud and Lacazette on the bench and Welbeck up front?
I increasingly don't get him either but I don't believe for one moment that his failure in the CL doesn't bother him.

His decisions are without a doubt quite often odd, but IMO in the last 10 years everything he's said and done suggests he's a man that doesn't put winning at the top of the agenda, finances seem to be foremost in his thinking, there's plenty of example of him failing to give us the best chance to win trophies, examples you'd probably not see many other managers are top clubs make, examples that show a lack of ambition and drive to win IMO.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He could win it if he tried hard enough and did the right things, the fact he would think he can't suggest he should know he shouldn't even be here. We should be aiming to win the league and/or the CL, if we have a manager who doesn't believe he can surely that's a problem, maybe not to our club having said that.

He is 68 in October, at best we won't even be in the competition for a year

And there are many, many coaches who are currently better than Wenger who haven't won it. And some may not come close to it.

The winners this year are going to come from a very narrow group.

That Wenger hasn't learned from his myriad mistakes in Europe is kind of incidental. I think Wenger could completely change his ways in coaching, player recruitment etc and realistically we'd be no significantly closer to winning the competition.

Real Madrid and Barcelona have won six of the last nine between them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

His decisions are without a doubt quite often odd, but IMO in the last 10 years everything he's said and done suggests he's a man that doesn't put winning at the top of the agenda, finances seem to be foremost in his thinking, there's plenty of example of him failing to give us the best chance to win trophies, examples you'd probably not see many other managers are top clubs make, examples that show a lack of ambition and drive to win IMO.

Again I think if finances were at the top of his agenda we wouldn't be running such a massive wage bill

Wenger is obsessed with proving that he can do it without spending loads. And the irony is that he's failed so badly at that, that another club (Leicester City) managed to adopt his blueprint sucessfully.

I think being given more power over the day to day running of the football club than any other manager has at any other club has made him hyper sensitive to financial considerations, simply because he has been lauded as someone who has achieved great things on very little spend.

He does things constrained by a set of rules only he understands which he frequently bends anyway. He is obsessed with this total football model, you saw the article by Keown where he refused to show a player defensive mistakes he was making because it might interfere with the technical aspects of his game.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not actually arguing his past successes do mitigate what he's doing right now.
I'm just arguing against the assertion that he was never that good in the first place.
Zim questions how someone supposedly so good can now be so bad and his conclusion is that maybe he was never that good in the first place.
My take is that Wenger has simply stood still while all around him has changed. If the champion high jumper before the Fosby Flop was popularised refused to adopt the new technique then he would start to get beaten by younger athletes whose technique allows them to jump higher. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great jumper back in the day though. Neither does it mitigate his failure to adopt the new technique.

Wenger has certainly not been standing still. Stan bought his shares for 500 million and he just recently turned down a bid approaching 1.5 billion. That's why Wenger still has a job. He delivers where it counts for this owner and this board and all the rest is total bullshit. We know this to be the case because nothing ever changes at this club. Or, you could look at that another way and say everything always stays the same. Stan's valuation continues to rise, the execs including Wenger continued to get paid and on the pitch we continue to fail to be competitive at the top level. If you look past all the smoke it's actually pretty easy to see what is happening at this club and where the focus and priorities lie. Judge them by their actions, not their words and certainly not their promises.

[Power n Glory]

He is 68 in October, at best we won't even be in the competition for a year

And there are many, many coaches who are currently better than Wenger who haven't won it. And some may not come close to it.

The winners this year are going to come from a very narrow group.

That Wenger hasn't learned from his myriad mistakes in Europe is kind of incidental. I think Wenger could completely change his ways in coaching, player recruitment etc and realistically we'd be no significantly closer to winning the competition.

Real Madrid and Barcelona have won six of the last nine between them.

There is not one coach that has had a chance to build team after team with one of the top European clubs and not won the Champs League. We're talking two decades with Arsenal and he's only ever progressed beyond the last 16 on a handful of occasions. He's in a league of his own for this one.

[Niall_Quinn]

Again I think if finances were at the top of his agenda we wouldn't be running such a massive wage bill

Wenger is obsessed with proving that he can do it without spending loads. And the irony is that he's failed so badly at that, that another club (Leicester City) managed to adopt his blueprint sucessfully.

I think being given more power over the day to day running of the football club than any other manager has at any other club has made him hyper sensitive to financial considerations, simply because he has been lauded as someone who has achieved great things on very little spend.

He does things constrained by a set of rules only he understands which he frequently bends anyway. He is obsessed with this total football model, you saw the article by Keown where he refused to show a player defensive mistakes he was making because it might interfere with the technical aspects of his game.

There's a big difference between the wage bill and transfer activity. The former is a known quantity that can be projected into the future. The latter is a gamble that can either add benefits for an outlay and protracted costs or add nothing significant for that same outlay and costs. I'm pretty sure which Wenger prefers, the stability of the payroll compared to the casino of the transfer market. He's told us this enough times with his irrelevant speeches about his version of value.

If you want stability you want your players to stay, so you pay them to stay. Even the shit ones. Everything becomes quantifiable and predictable (where have we heard that before?). And you have a nice little FFP excuse to play with, we can't gamble because we have to account for the wages. We have to get rid of players (take profit) before we can spend. Furthermore, how do you keep a squad of professionals content with mediocrity? By paying them to shut up and get on with it.

I heard the cost of player wages has dropped from over 70% to around 60% of earnings. In the big picture this is another long term benefit. Everything is being run in a way you'd run an investment fund. The mitigation of risk wherever possible and with the goal of stability. You want a mixed basket but one tending towards the conservative so unexpected outcomes can be smoothed out. Admirable if you are running a bank (not that bankers are anywhere near as conservative s Arsenal Football Club), disastrous in the modern game if your aim is to compete at the top.

The 92 million bid for Lemar has all sorts of rumours swirling around it. Some say the player pulled out. Others say we pulled out. Some say Liverpool were never interested at all and it was Lemar's representatives that were putting all the rumours out there, thus driving up the fee to a ridiculous level at the last minute to deter a (possibly and probably phantom) Liverpool bid. When you consider Liverpool did hang on to Coutinho then it's not outrageous to suggest Arsenal were spun a line and they bought it. So why bid 92 million at all? The question becomes, why not bid 50 or 60 million when the players was eager to come here? Why leave it until the very last minute when Lemar was getting ready for a major International match? I think the answer is fairly obvious. This was a cynical ploy to give the appearance we were ready to compete at the top, managed in such a way that failure was inevitable. Even if Lemar had said yes, there remained many ways to scupper the deal. So I write that off as a con-job, much like the pre-season Mbappe con-artistry. Yes, I do consider them to be that cynical. They are using a football club as a front for their activities so they need to keep the public relations in at least some working order.

Anyway, they can now set sail again in the sturdy ship. The wage bill is under control, no 300k for Alexis or Ozil now. The transfer window has replaced the lost revenues from failure to qualify for the CL. All that remains to be done is claim a victory for keeping 2 or the 3 players that can soon walk on a free and, oh look, Ivan just did that this morning. Well played. Some will believe it. Many perhaps. Enough, for sure, And the rest won't care and the good ship Kroenke will sail on.

The true intent of this club became clear when Wenger was awarded his contract. Nothing logical can explain that decision if our real focus as a club is football.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There is not one coach that has had a chance to build team after team with one of the top European clubs and not won the Champs League. We're talking two decades with Arsenal and he's only ever progressed beyond the last 16 on a handful of occasions. He's in a league of his own for this one.

We aren't one of the top European clubs. We aren't in the realm of Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich. And we don't have the spending power of City, Chelsea, United or PSG

PSG has spent £200 million on closing that gap because they've not got past the quarter finals once.

Jurgen Klopp is a better coach than Wenger, him winning the European cup is not on the horizon unless he joins one of the clubs I've mentioned.

Same with Diego Simeone, he might get there with the likes of Chelsea but there is only a certain level he can reach with Atletico Madrid (by far in fact he has massively over achieved)

Wenger has had the chance to do better in the competition for sure and he's wasted it.....we definitely probably should have won it in 03/04. It's unacceptable that we have been knocked out by the likes of PSV and Monaco.

But looking at it now, the Champions League is currently a prize for elite clubs and clubs whose spending is relative to the GDP of countries like Luxembourg.

It is to put it simply a closed shop

For a manager like Klopp just qualifying for it is a big achievement, does he have the ambition to win it? Yeah of course but it doesn't make it anymore likely to happen.

[Letters]

He could win it if he tried hard enough and did the right things, the fact he would think he can't suggest he should know he shouldn't even be here. We should be aiming to win the league and/or the CL, if we have a manager who doesn't believe he can surely that's a problem, maybe not to our club having said that.
In the Q&A he was asked if he thought we could win the league and he said yes :shrug:


He's wrong, obviously, but he says he believes we can.

[Niall_Quinn]

We aren't one of the top European clubs. We aren't in the realm of Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich. And we don't have the spending power of City, Chelsea, United or PSG

PSG has spent £200 million on closing that gap because they've not got past the quarter finals once.

Jurgen Klopp is a better coach than Wenger, him winning the European cup is not on the horizon unless he joins one of the clubs I've mentioned.

Same with Diego Simeone, he might get there with the likes of Chelsea but there is only a certain level he can reach with Atletico Madrid (by far in fact he has massively over achieved)

Wenger has had the chance to do better in the competition for sure and he's wasted it.....we definitely probably should have won it in 03/04. It's unacceptable that we have been knocked out by the likes of PSV and Monaco.

But looking at it now, the Champions League is currently a prize for elite clubs and clubs whose spending is relative to the GDP of countries like Luxembourg.

It is to put it simply a closed shop

For a manager like Klopp just qualifying for it is a big achievement, does he have the ambition to win it? Yeah of course but it doesn't make it anymore likely to happen.

We most certainly do have the spending power of the elite clubs. Not on a sustained basis, but at least to the degree we could bring in some key players that we have needed for a long time. Perhaps the stadium did stunt our prospects in the transfer window, but it didn't seem to impact as harshly on the bank balance which has increased 500% since Kroenke arrived. And now, apparently, we have no money. They have been playing this trick season after season. Every Arsenal fan knows the old 2% away from greatness joke. A joke because we all know we are way more than 2% behind. But 2 key players, that could have made a difference in any number of transfer windows. There's a quarter of a billion quid in the bank and the nonsense about it not being available because it needs to go elsewhere can easily be dismissed because that balance keeps growing, season upon season. So where else does the cash need to go and why hasn't it gone there?

Lies, lies, lies, all lies. Success breeds success and we won't invest what's required to generate that initial spark. This is the reality we have seen. We'll spend when there's no competition and we mislead the fans when other clubs are taking the players we are all envious of. Well we've finally reached an inevitable destination, because even if we were willing to spend the money now I doubt the top players would want to come here. How sad and how convenient. Wasn't our fault guv, honest.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The true intent of this club became clear when Wenger was awarded his contract. Nothing logical can explain that decision if our real focus as a club is football.

That's clearly where you're going wrong

You've assumed there has to be a logical reason behind decision making

The reason for it was fear. Wenger was afraid because he has literally nothing going on in his life outside the club and the club are worried because everything has been done by Wenger for so long they can't conceive of anything being different

Kroenke gave Wenger the undiluted contract because it's easier for him to give Wenger the power and control he wants because he knows Wenger can't fuck up enough to have a detrimental effect on the club as an asset. So in Kroenkes case it's purely financial but there's hardly ever been any pretence of anything different.

Gazidis may be ambitious but he's too much of a gimp to do something about it or move on, and Wenger has an unshakeable belief in his own methodology.

[Niall_Quinn]

In the Q&A he was asked if he thought we could win the league and he said yes :shrug:


He's wrong, obviously, but he says he believes we can.

Placing any value on what comes out of Wenger's gob is obviously a mistake, what with him being a lying bastard an all. I think we can see from this thread, take whatever Wenger says, believe the opposite. Yes, of course, he does want to win the CL, much like I want to leap over the moon. Words are easy. And no, of course the incompetent cock can't win the title, but etiquette demands he makes the claim.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's clearly where you're going wrong

You've assumed there has to be a logical reason behind decision making

The reason for it was fear. Wenger was afraid because he has literally nothing going on in his life outside the club and the club are worried because everything has been done by Wenger for so long they can't conceive of anything being different

Kroenke gave Wenger the undiluted contract because it's easier for him to give Wenger the power and control he wants because he knows Wenger can't fuck up enough to have a detrimental effect on the club as an asset. So in Kroenkes case it's purely financial but there's hardly ever been any pretence of anything different.

Gazidis may be ambitious but he's too much of a gimp to do something about it or move on, and Wenger has an unshakeable belief in his own methodology.

Well you are agreeing with me. Kroenke's sole focus is financial. When you don't give a fuck about the football beyond confirming you can continue to get arses on seats and keep the spreadsheet projections rolling then hiring Wenger again actually des become logical. You know he'll play your game and play it well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We most certainly do have the spending power of the elite clubs. Not on a sustained basis, but at least to the degree we could bring in some key players that we have needed for a long time. Perhaps the stadium did stunt our prospects in the transfer window, but it didn't seem to impact as harshly on the bank balance which has increased 500% since Kroenke arrived. And now, apparently, we have no money. They have been playing this trick season after season. Every Arsenal fan knows the old 2% away from greatness joke. A joke because we all know we are way more than 2% behind. But 2 key players, that could have made a difference in any number of transfer windows. There's a quarter of a billion quid in the bank and the nonsense about it not being available because it needs to go elsewhere can easily be dismissed because that balance keeps growing, season upon season. So where else does the cash need to go and why hasn't it gone there?

Lies, lies, lies, all lies. Success breeds success and we won't invest what's required to generate that initial spark. This is the reality we have seen. We'll spend when there's no competition and we mislead the fans when other clubs are taking the players we are all envious of. Well we've finally reached an inevitable destination, because even if we were willing to spend the money now I doubt the top players would want to come here. How sad and how convenient. Wasn't our fault guv, honest.

You're right in the sense that Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich have become part of the elite through past success that has given them the reputation that makes them marketable qualities.

You're absolutely right we quite probably could match PSG, City and Chelsea in the market for One season, where they have the advantage is that they can do it every season and can up the ante anytime they choose.

You seem to be convinced that I'm mitigating for Wengers failings, I'm not. His failure is even when it's possible to compete he has completely failed to do so....that no matter what the season the same failings, the same excuses etc

What I am saying is look at Spurs and their points total last season, that would have been enough for them to win the title in years gone by. But last season Chelsea won 30 games (unprecedented in a 38 game season) and teams like that can reach that kind of level whenever they wish by just pouring their money into transfers.

We can claim it's because Antonio Conte is a genius but his tactical tweaks were quite obvious, and a lot of it came down to figurative dick stroking of individuals who Mourinho managed to piss off.

And will Conte win the champions league this season? No probably not.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well you are agreeing with me. Kroenke's sole focus is financial. When you don't give a fuck about the football beyond confirming you can continue to get arses on seats and keep the spreadsheet projections rolling then hiring Wenger again actually des become logical. You know he'll play your game and play it well.

I'm merely saying that isn't Wengers focus, if it was hed clearly be doing it a lot better and more efficiently. For Kroenke it goes without saying.

Whilst it's helpful to have a coach who knows what they are doing and are young and tactically aware and hungry. If you have a ridiculous amount of money it doesn't always matter and that's why city won the title with Manuel Pellegrini.

And sometimes it's unhelpful. Pep Guardiola is trying to get players to gel into a very specific system and way of playing, when sometimes with a club like city it's easier just to put out your strongest team and know they will be good enough to win no matter how the opposistion sets up.

It's possibly why Wenger might have done better with City, he'd have been unconstrained by tactical considerations. The only drawback would be his bizarre insistence on putting players out of position.

[Power n Glory]

We aren't one of the top European clubs. We aren't in the realm of Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich. And we don't have the spending power of City, Chelsea, United or PSG

PSG has spent £200 million on closing that gap because they've not got past the quarter finals once.

Jurgen Klopp is a better coach than Wenger, him winning the European cup is not on the horizon unless he joins one of the clubs I've mentioned.

Same with Diego Simeone, he might get there with the likes of Chelsea but there is only a certain level he can reach with Atletico Madrid (by far in fact he has massively over achieved)

Wenger has had the chance to do better in the competition for sure and he's wasted it.....we definitely probably should have won it in 03/04. It's unacceptable that we have been knocked out by the likes of PSV and Monaco.

But looking at it now, the Champions League is currently a prize for elite clubs and clubs whose spending is relative to the GDP of countries like Luxembourg.

It is to put it simply a closed shop

For a manager like Klopp just qualifying for it is a big achievement, does he have the ambition to win it? Yeah of course but it doesn't make it anymore likely to happen.

Dortmund and Atletico are smaller clubs than Arsenal. Klopp and Simeone haven't had decades to build squad after squad with consistent qualification like Arsene has. That's the point.

Simeone has won the UEFA Cup with Atletico and reached the final of the CL twice along with a semi and quarter final place.

Also, bare in mind, these two coaches haven't had the sort of players Wenger has had. When we had Bergkamp, Henry, Vieira, Sol Campbell, Pires, Ljunberg, Wiltord, Gilberto....world cup winners and experienced internationals...he should have done better an especially when more teams were winning it.

[Niall_Quinn]

You're right in the sense that Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich have become part of the elite through past success that has given them the reputation that makes them marketable qualities.

You're absolutely right we quite probably could match PSG, City and Chelsea in the market for One season, where they have the advantage is that they can do it every season and can up the ante anytime they choose.

You seem to be convinced that I'm mitigating for Wengers failings, I'm not. His failure is even when it's possible to compete he has completely failed to do so....that no matter what the season the same failings, the same excuses etc

What I am saying is look at Spurs and their points total last season, that would have been enough for them to win the title in years gone by. But last season Chelsea won 30 games (unprecedented in a 38 game season) and teams like that can reach that kind of level whenever they wish by just pouring their money into transfers.

We can claim it's because Antonio Conte is a genius but his tactical tweaks were quite obvious, and a lot of it came down to figurative dick stroking of individuals who Mourinho managed to piss off.

And will Conte win the champions league this season? No probably not.

Actually, the chav fans are starting to grumble because Abramovich has been running a much tighter ship of late and has been selling before he spends. The chav model has changed considerably in recent years. I think they banked close on 60 mill this time around just from moving on some of their loan legion. I might be wrong on that, I read it in passing and didn't dig into the details. But regardless, the chavs are methodically moving away from being a cash dumping outfit.

The gypos, until Pep's arrival and his unique approach to being a genius, were going the same way. These "doping" clubs (Utd aside because they are a one-off freak in terms of earning power) are all tending towards balancing the books. They all did it the right way around, invest, reap the rewards, create sustainability. We created sustainability at a time the league was going through an explosion of growth and with all the inflation that brings. So it never worked for us and our long term boasting is proving to be hollow. We wanted a risk averse model and if you won't take a risk then you won't see a reward. Just compare us to where we were back when Wenger first joined. Hiring the bloke in the first place was viewed as a massive risk. Signing Bergkamp for a club record fee, a player who has tailed off badly in Milan, signing Vieria, another player who was underachieving at the time. Look at how those risks paid off. But when Kroenke arrived, all change. But he couldn't do it alone and Wenger's boasts about conservatism have been the loudest of all.

I'm not saying you are trying to excuse Wenger, what I'm saying is you seem to still believe his focus is on the football. Well maybe it is, but only in the sense AFC needs to run a football club as the vehicle that delivers the earnings. In terms of running a competitive club, I can't see how Wenger has been interested in that in years, otherwise he'd have taken the steps necessary to compete. He hasn't taken any of them. He's done the reverse.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Dortmund and Atletico are smaller clubs than Arsenal. Klopp and Simeone haven't had decades to build squad after squad with consistent qualification like Arsene has. That's the point.

Simeone has won the UEFA Cup with Atletico and reached the final of the CL twice along with a semi and quarter final place.

Also, bare in mind, these two coaches haven't had the sort of players Wenger has had. When we had Bergkamp, Henry, Vieira, Sol Campbell, Pires, Ljunberg, Wiltord, Gilberto....world cup winners and experienced internationals...he should have done better an especially when more teams were winning it.

I agree completely. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the ECL is now a totally closed shop unless you spend so much you end up being the subject of FFP investigation. So you can be a poor coach like Wenger is or a very good coach like Klopp or Simeone....it's not going to make a huge amount of difference. The latter may find themselves getting to the latter stages more often but ultimately they will come up against sides that can wipe them off the face of the earth with the sheer talent in their side.

Wenger has no excuse for failing to win the competition in the past, but it's probably sensible to recognise that no matter what he does....that ship has sailed for him and probably for Arsenal for the foreseeable future (with or without him as manager)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Actually, the chav fans are starting to grumble because Abramovich has been running a much tighter ship of late and has been selling before he spends. The chav model has changed considerably in recent years. I think they banked close on 60 mill this time around just from moving on some of their loan legion. I might be wrong on that, I read it in passing and didn't dig into the details. But regardless, the chavs are methodically moving away from being a cash dumping outfit.

The gypos, until Pep's arrival and his unique approach to being a genius, were going the same way. These "doping" clubs (Utd aside because they are a one-off freak in terms of earning power) are all tending towards balancing the books. They all did it the right way around, invest, reap the rewards, create sustainability. We created sustainability at a time the league was going through an explosion of growth and with all the inflation that brings. So it never worked for us and our long term boasting is proving to be hollow. We wanted a risk averse model and if you won't take a risk then you won't see a reward. Just compare us to where we were back when Wenger first joined. Hiring the bloke in the first place was viewed as a massive risk. Signing Bergkamp for a club record fee, a player who has tailed off badly in Milan, signing Vieria, another player who was underachieving at the time. Look at how those risks paid off. But when Kroenke arrived, all change. But he couldn't do it alone and Wenger's boasts about conservatism have been the loudest of all.

I'm not saying you are trying to excuse Wenger, what I'm saying is you seem to still believe his focus is on the football. Well maybe it is, but only in the sense AFC needs to run a football club as the vehicle that delivers the earnings. In terms of running a competitive club, I can't see how Wenger has been interested in that in years, otherwise he'd have taken the steps necessary to compete. He hasn't taken any of them. He's done the reverse.

Yeah and I'm saying that isn't deliberate on his part it's a result of being a poor coach who may possibly have been elite level twenty years ago, but is barely even average now.

You mention Chelsea and they are starting to struggle in terms of recruitment because of this tight ship running and are largely reliant on the accumulation of top quality talent over the last five years in order to make them competitive.

City and United will keep on buying and buying and buying. And for that reason we should recognise that even with a better coach the top prizes will be out of reach more often than not. It's just a case of being able to take the oportunity when either slips and with Wenger we just can't anymore.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Arsenal should be achieving what the likes of Dortmund, Atletico or even Leicester have

But it's also about recognising that if and when we do achieve these things it will be the outlier not the usual (like it was with them)

The problem with Wenger is knowing we will never be able to take the oportunity no matter what.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree completely. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the ECL is now a totally closed shop unless you spend so much you end up being the subject of FFP investigation. So you can be a poor coach like Wenger is or a very good coach like Klopp or Simeone....it's not going to make a huge amount of difference. The latter may find themselves getting to the latter stages more often but ultimately they will come up against sides that can wipe them off the face of the earth with the sheer talent in their side.

Wenger has no excuse for failing to win the competition in the past, but it's probably sensible to recognise that no matter what he does....that ship has sailed for him and probably for Arsenal for the foreseeable future (with or without him as manager)

Agreed that the CL is a bit of a silly example. So far beyond us we'll need a faster than light breakthrough to get back in the same galaxy. The disgrace is how far behind we are in our own domestic league. A double digit deficit is normality and yet we still hear from them how we will be challenging based on nothing changing. Everton don't pop up each season with claims of a pending title triumph. Everyone would laugh if they did. But Wenger still does it and it's more than embarrassing this late in the same old game.

What this lot can't do is admit the truth, we have been steered into second tier status. The reverse of where these geniuses were supposed to be driving us. And all the excuses we have to listen to. Financial doping and economic downturns and finishing double digits behind Leicester when all our other rivals collapsed.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Agreed that the CL is a bit of a silly example. So far beyond us we'll need a faster than light breakthrough to get back in the same galaxy. The disgrace is how far behind we are in our own domestic league. A double digit deficit is normality and yet we still hear from them how we will be challenging based on nothing changing. Everton don't pop up each season with claims of a pending title triumph. Everyone would laugh if they did. But Wenger still does it and it's more than embarrassing this late in the same old game.

What this lot can't do is admit the truth, we have been steered into second tier status. The reverse of where these geniuses were supposed to be driving us. And all the excuses we have to listen to. Financial doping and economic downturns and finishing double digits behind Leicester when all our other rivals collapsed.

This debate started because Zim assumed as he does that Wenger saying he's not bothered by not winning the champions league is a sign of his lack of ambition. I think he's lying to mask the fact that he knows he's had his chance he fluffed it and he'll probably never get one again.

If Spurs and Liverpool are competitive in the league, if Leicester City can win the league we have absolutely no excuse of course.

I don't expect us to win the league that often, but I expect us to be competitive to the bitter end every season.

[Power n Glory]

I agree completely. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the ECL is now a totally closed shop unless you spend so much you end up being the subject of FFP investigation. So you can be a poor coach like Wenger is or a very good coach like Klopp or Simeone....it's not going to make a huge amount of difference. The latter may find themselves getting to the latter stages more often but ultimately they will come up against sides that can wipe them off the face of the earth with the sheer talent in their side.

Wenger has no excuse for failing to win the competition in the past, but it's probably sensible to recognise that no matter what he does....that ship has sailed for him and probably for Arsenal for the foreseeable future (with or without him as manager)

I'm not so sure about that. I still think there is a chance for an outsider and it's not as if the outsiders are all dropping out at the early stages. Looking at recent history, Atletico have made it to the final twice and Juve came close in 2015 with Dortmund in the final in 2014. Bayern winning in 2013 was the start of their European resurgence because they weren't spoken of as that much of a force outside of that year.

Winning the competition is hard but the amount of times Wenger has gone out at the group stage or first round of the knock out stage is pretty poor. Take Monaco from last year as an example. That teams been dismantled now but we can say that team had the next generation of French internationals playing for them. They made it to the semi finals. With the Golden Age French players at his disposal and more, Wenger could only make it as far as the QF on two occasions in the CL. With his best ever team he could never make it far in the comp. It's a really poor record and I've never seen a coach have chance after chance to rebuild a team after being dismantled.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

The Ornstein post really sums us up as a club: naive, dithering & lacking ruthlessness.

One of the reasons why Chelsea sold Matic was that he had two years and left and refused to commit to signing a new contract -- I so wish we would have a similar policy instead of letting players and agents abuse us by stalling new contract offers and letting them wind into their final year. Either sign when there's two years left to go or you're sold - NO EXCEPTIONS! They way things are with us, we're constantly firefighting and next year it's going to get worst with the likes of Ramsey & Jack up.



By the way did anyone see our blundering chairman Sir Chips Keswick committing a PR blunder by admitting he preferred horse racing to football at the weekend when he was interviewed on TV? :lol:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/4383413/arsenal-chairman-sir-chips-keswick-club-horse-racing/

Out of touch useless old fart. The fact that he, someone who likely doesn't even like football, is our chairman symbolises the shambles we're in.

Here's a novel idea ...... how about for board members we have people who are actually Arsenal fans who're in tune with the modern game instead of an absentee Yank with zero interest & his crony son and ancient elitist Tories in it for the freebies.

Maybe an ex player/legend like Pires, Keown, Dixon etc ..... heck for even some of his weird behaviour at times, I'd have Sol Campbell ahead of them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not so sure about that. I still think there is a chance for an outsider and it's not as if the outsiders are all dropping out at the early stages. Looking at recent history, Atletico have made it to the final twice and Juve came close in 2015 with Dortmund in the final in 2014. Bayern winning in 2013 was the start of their European resurgence because they weren't spoken of as that much of a force outside of that year.

Winning the competition is hard but the amount of times Wenger has gone out at the group stage or first round of the knock out stage is pretty poor. Take Monaco from last year as an example. That teams been dismantled now but we can say that team had the next generation of French internationals playing for them. They made it to the semi finals. With the Golden Age French players at his disposal and more, Wenger could only make it as far as the QF on two occasions in the CL. With his best ever team he could never make it far in the comp. It's a really poor record and I've never seen a coach have chance after chance to rebuild a team after being dismantled.

The last time a club that didn't either have a massive European reputation or wasn't a club that was massively financially doped won the EC was arguably Inter in 2010.

The days of plucky Liverpool (who even themselves are a club of huge European pedigree) or Porto winning the competition are a long way away.

Wenger has failed to make a dent in the competition, his failure to get past the last 16 most times whether we are playing PSV or Barcelona is totally unacceptable.

The better managers like Simeone and Klopp are chipping away and maybe in an outlier season coming close, but they aren't winning the thing.

Neither is Conte neither is Allegri. Yes I agree there is a difference, Wengers failure to win in the past is a reflection on him as a coach....there's isn't so much. It doesn't mean that if Zidane picks up the trophy again or Unai Emery does it with PSG they are better than them.

It's just that the ECL is ultimately for the likes of Real Madrid and PSG (and maybe City)

[Power n Glory]

The last time a club that didn't either have a massive European reputation or wasn't a club that was massively financially doped won the EC was arguably Inter in 2010.

The days of plucky Liverpool (who even themselves are a club of huge European pedigree) or Porto winning the competition are a long way away.

Wenger has failed to make a dent in the competition, his failure to get past the last 16 most times whether we are playing PSV or Barcelona is totally unacceptable.

The better managers like Simeone and Klopp are chipping away and maybe in an outlier season coming close, but they aren't winning the thing.

Neither is Conte neither is Allegri. Yes I agree there is a difference, Wengers failure to win in the past is a reflection on him as a coach....there's isn't so much. It doesn't mean that if Zidane picks up the trophy again or Unai Emery does it with PSG they are better than them.

It's just that the ECL is ultimately for the likes of Real Madrid and PSG (and maybe City)

PSG and Man City? Neither have made it to the final. City made it to the semi final once since striking oil. You might be confusing the dominance of the two Spanish giants. Look at the finals over the last 5 seasons. Juve have made it to the final twice, Atletico twice and Dortmund has one. These aren't super rich teams. I'd agree with your point if it's been a seasons of Barca v Real v Man City v PSG finals on rotation.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

PSG and Man City? Neither have made it to the final. City made it to the semi final once since striking oil. You might be confusing the dominance of the two Spanish giants. Look at the finals over the last 5 seasons. Juve have made it to the final twice, Atletico twice and Dortmund has one. These aren't super rich teams. I'd agree with your point if it's been a seasons of Barca v Real v Man City v PSG finals on rotation.

No but the only club to have won the title other than the big reputation European teams since 2010 is Chelsea

Granted it's speculative but City and PSG will do whatever it takes to break into that select elite.

The rest might threaten intermittently but will be on the outside looking in

If City and PSG fail to make the breakthrough that makes the ECL an even more elite competition

[Xhaka Can’t]

Consider this for a minute:

Of all the teams Kroenke owns, we are far and away the most successful when it comes to the performance of the team.

We aren't the first team he has taken from elite to mediocrity and if his other ventures are any sort of guide, we have a lot further to fall.

[Letters]

Of all the teams Kroenke owns, we are far and away the most successful when it comes to the performance of the team.
Wenger :bow:



:run:

[GP]

At least his other teams can't get relegated LMAO

[Power n Glory]

No but the only club to have won the title other than the big reputation European teams since 2010 is Chelsea

Granted it's speculative but City and PSG will do whatever it takes to break into that select elite.

The rest might threaten intermittently but will be on the outside looking in

If City and PSG fail to make the breakthrough that makes the ECL an even more elite competition

Chelsea won the Champs league in 2012. Then Bayern in 2013, Real 2014, Barca 2015 and then Real back to back for 2016 and 2017.

It's really just the two Spanish giants dominating. Nobody else. I wouldn't say it's closed door otherwise we'd see the same pattern with the bigger teams crushing the smaller each year. That's not the case.

Last season Juve beat Barca on their way to the final. In 2015 they kicked Real Madrid out.
Monaco knocked out Man City last season.
Atletico knocked out both Bayern and Barca in 2016 to get to the final. They took out Chelsea and Barca to make the final in 2014.
Dortmund knocked out Barca to make the final against Bayern.

You just wouldn't see these results if it were a closed door. It would be would always be a case of the richest and biggest teams in making it to the semis. Barca and Real having half of the worlds best players split between them is why they're so dominant. Freaks of football.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You can disagree as much as you like

Juventus, Atletico Madrid and Dortmund have all reached the final since 2009. All have knocked out big clubs in doing so.

None of them have won it, and this is what matters.

The two most elite clubs in Europe by some way are as you say Real Madrid and Barcelona. They have six of the last nine CL trophies between them, two of the three other clubs that won it in that period are Bayern Munich another club with historically massive reputation and Chelsea an oligarch club. If that's not a closed shop I don't know what is.

Barcelona have not done a good job of replenishing their ageing stars so that makes it even more elite going forward. And it's possible that PSG's 200 million on Neymar might make them close. And if you check the betting prices for the CL you will probably find Real and PSG with the shortest odds.

Newcastle, Aston Villa, Norwich, Blackburn all pushed United for the title in the 90s. Of the first five titles United won four, thus it was dominated by United. The same way the two Spanish Giants have dominated the champions league in the past decade.

[Letters]

You can disagree as much as you like
No I can't :sulk:

[Power n Glory]

You can disagree as much as you like

Juventus, Atletico Madrid and Dortmund have all reached the final since 2009. All have knocked out big clubs in doing so.

None of them have won it, and this is what matters.

The two most elite clubs in Europe by some way are as you say Real Madrid and Barcelona. They have six of the last nine CL trophies between them, two of the three other clubs that won it in that period are Bayern Munich another club with historically massive reputation and Chelsea an oligarch club. If that's not a closed shop I don't know what is.

Barcelona have not done a good job of replenishing their ageing stars so that makes it even more elite going forward. And it's possible that PSG's 200 million on Neymar might make them close. And if you check the betting prices for the CL you will probably find Real and PSG with the shortest odds.

Newcastle, Aston Villa, Norwich, Blackburn all pushed United for the title in the 90s. Of the first five titles United won four, thus it was dominated by United. The same way the two Spanish Giants have dominated the champions league in the past decade.

If it were that much of a closed shop, we'd see a pecking order of richest all getting to the later stages and the poorest going out a lot earlier. Madrid and Barca are have half of the worlds best players spread between them. Ronaldo and Messi are freaks of nature. We're already seeing the Barca dominance fall apart and it's just a matter of time before we see the same with Real Madrid. Who knows what team will win it next but I wouldn't say it's a competition where you can just splash millions and win. City and PSG are examples. Same goes for Chelsea. They may win won but I can't see many others doing what we've seen under this Messi/Ronaldo era.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If it were that much of a closed shop, we'd see a pecking order of richest all getting to the later stages and the poorest going out a lot earlier. Madrid and Barca are have half of the worlds best players spread between them. Ronaldo and Messi are freaks of nature. We're already seeing the Barca dominance fall apart and it's just a matter of time before we see the same with Real Madrid. Who knows what team will win it next but I wouldn't say it's a competition where you can just splash millions and win. City and PSG are examples. Same goes for Chelsea. They may win won but I can't see many others doing what we've seen under this Messi/Ronaldo era.

Sigh....ok let me explain this using a different sport

Tennis in terms of the grand slams is largely a closed shop

There isn't always a pecking order as to who gets to the business end of the tournaments

Of the previous 59 grand slam tournaments played between 2003 and now, 47 have been won by Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic.

Of the eight Wimbledon titles Federer won, three times he played Andy Roddick in the final. In 2009 Roddick beat better players than himself to get to the final but he still ultimately came up short.

Murray has reached Five Australian open finals, on four of those occasions he has lost to Djokovic

Nadal between 2005 and 2017 has won ten of thirteen Roland Garros titles, Federer got to three consecutive finals against Nadal and came no closer to beating Nadal during those three games. But as an elite player he was able to profit in 2009 when an out of sorts Nadal was beaten in the fourth round by Robin Soderling who then reached the final only to be trounced by Federer.

Since 2003, Wimbledon has been won by Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray....the four players who have occupied the top four spots in the ATP rankings during that time. Phillipousis, Berdych, Raonic and Cilic have reached the finals in that time.

An unknown Marcos Baghdatis beat many, many higher seeds to reach the Aussie Open final in 2006, he even gave Federer a game for the first set and a bit but Federer triumphed in four seats.

So taking the other sport as an example, it doesn't end up with a structured pecking order. But with the exception of the odd outlier it tends to result in the cream rising to the top. Whether they end up beating each other or some plucky challenger.

Plus with the CL you have had Bayern and Real and Barca feature in the semi finals numerous times From 2009 to now Barca have been in five, Real in seven and Bayern in six

[Edinburgh Gooner]

Dunno if anyone has seen or posted this yet. https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/sep/04/arsenal-problems-stan-kroenke-premier-league-los-angeles-rams

[Power n Glory]

Sigh....ok let me explain this using a different sport

Tennis in terms of the grand slams is largely a closed shop

There isn't always a pecking order as to who gets to the business end of the tournaments

Of the previous 59 grand slam tournaments played between 2003 and now, 47 have been won by Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic.

Of the eight Wimbledon titles Federer won, three times he played Andy Roddick in the final. In 2009 Roddick beat better players than himself to get to the final but he still ultimately came up short.

Murray has reached Five Australian open finals, on four of those occasions he has lost to Djokovic

Nadal between 2005 and 2017 has won ten of thirteen Roland Garros titles, Federer got to three consecutive finals against Nadal and came no closer to beating Nadal during those three games. But as an elite player he was able to profit in 2009 when an out of sorts Nadal was beaten in the fourth round by Robin Soderling who then reached the final only to be trounced by Federer.

Since 2003, Wimbledon has been won by Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray....the four players who have occupied the top four spots in the ATP rankings during that time. Phillipousis, Berdych, Raonic and Cilic have reached the finals in that time.

An unknown Marcos Baghdatis beat many, many higher seeds to reach the Aussie Open final in 2006, he even gave Federer a game for the first set and a bit but Federer triumphed in four seats.

So taking the other sport as an example, it doesn't end up with a structured pecking order. But with the exception of the odd outlier it tends to result in the cream rising to the top. Whether they end up beating each other or some plucky challenger.

Plus with the CL you have had Bayern and Real and Barca feature in the semi finals numerous times From 2009 to now Barca have been in five, Real in seven and Bayern in six

I get what you're trying to say but Tennis is a poor example. It doesn't correlate. For football and the CL, you're arguing that those with the most spending power wins. With Tennis, it's the most talented and skilled, so it doesn't work as an equivalent.

With the CL, I'm waiting to see how Real Madrid react when Ronaldo starts to decline. Money is a major factor in football but as seen with some of the big spenders like City and PSG, it hasn't turned into European dominance. In football, you can accumulate the most expensive players in the world and still fall short. If that weren't the case, we'd have never seen Dortmund, Atletico or Leicester win the league. It's not a regular thing to see one of the smaller teams win but to confidently say we're unlikely to see another team outside of the Spanish clubs or oil rich win....I disagree. This is football. Plus, you're not taking into account youth development at club and international level. Spain's dominance at International level along with Barca producing Spain's golden era players played it's part. You never know which nation will produce the next crop of the world's best.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I can't predict what will happen in the future, what I've said is using the last few years as a barometer. It would be perfectly acceptable for someone like Wenger to accept that he doesn't have a cat in hells chance of winning the champions league even if he were to assume he's a far better coach than he actually is (an assumption I would assume he verily makes)

The tennis example holds up because in terms of talent and reputation, whilst plucky underdogs having the season of their lives may force themselves into a final. Ultimately those with most talent and reputation win. And cash in football helps you acquire talent in order to get a reputation.

I would say the difference between football and tennis is that before long we are more likely to see a changing of the guard in Tennis. There is a younger generation of 19/20 year olds who will in the next year or so start sweeping up the big prizes when the likes of Federer retires, and the likes of Djokovic, Nadal and Murray who are now all 30+ begin to deteriorate.

And whilst there is I'm sure every chance the champions league may see its own Leicester city story, it will always be the outlier to the destiny of football that those who spend the most money will see the most success. Unless the bottom falls out suddenly I don't see how that trend will be reversed. Because it's largely always been true, the difference is just the grotesqueness of the money involved.

[Özim]

Dunno if anyone has seen or posted this yet. https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/sep/04/arsenal-problems-stan-kroenke-premier-league-los-angeles-rams

Looks like Kroenke makes a habit of keeping 2nd rate coaches/managers in employment, he really is the worst possible owner for a sports team, trust us to get lumbered with him.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dunno if anyone has seen or posted this yet. https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/sep/04/arsenal-problems-stan-kroenke-premier-league-los-angeles-rams

Read most of it in various other articles, but this wraps up the sheer desperation of it all neatly in one place.

Eventually he'll trigger some lone nut who will perform a public service.

[AFC Leveller]

I was thinking earlier how the club's handling of contract renewals has been nothing short of shocking and as we head into 2018, things look a lot bleaker than this summer. Ozil and Alexis will probably leave and not only will they walk for free, we will need to replace them and it won't be cheap. Santi will also probably leave for free and how we've missed him! The likes of Mustafi, Peres and Belerin have all requested to be sold and will probably get their wish. Wilshere, Giroud and Merts have been told they're either up for sale or not part of the future and letting them go means we have to get replacements (again with not much transfer fees). Ramsay will have a year left on his contact (don't rate him myself) and i wouldn't be surprised if a big club came in for him.

Then you have dross like Walcott, Debuchy, Jenkison etc stinking up the place it is looking a lot less rosy.

With an owner who shows 0 intentions on investing or even competing, we are in deep doodoo.

[Power n Glory]

I can't predict what will happen in the future, what I've said is using the last few years as a barometer. It would be perfectly acceptable for someone like Wenger to accept that he doesn't have a cat in hells chance of winning the champions league even if he were to assume he's a far better coach than he actually is (an assumption I would assume he verily makes)

The tennis example holds up because in terms of talent and reputation, whilst plucky underdogs having the season of their lives may force themselves into a final. Ultimately those with most talent and reputation win. And cash in football helps you acquire talent in order to get a reputation.

I would say the difference between football and tennis is that before long we are more likely to see a changing of the guard in Tennis. There is a younger generation of 19/20 year olds who will in the next year or so start sweeping up the big prizes when the likes of Federer retires, and the likes of Djokovic, Nadal and Murray who are now all 30+ begin to deteriorate.

And whilst there is I'm sure every chance the champions league may see its own Leicester city story, it will always be the outlier to the destiny of football that those who spend the most money will see the most success. Unless the bottom falls out suddenly I don't see how that trend will be reversed. Because it's largely always been true, the difference is just the grotesqueness of the money involved.

If that were true, Real Madrid should have won a lot more CL titles considering they didn't win one when they had Ronaldo, Beckham, Owen, Zidane, Figo....It took them 10 years to win the CL again despite always breaking transfer record year after year. Took 10 years for Barca to win it again after the Cruyff era and the same for Bayern. Again, I think we're seeing the Ronaldo/Messi era. I highly doubt Wenger will ever win the CL but can't rule anything out in football considering what we've seen already. Heck, Atletico only lost to Real on a penalty shoot out in the CL final. It's not as if they hadn't beaten Real Madrid that season before either. Thin line.

[Özim]

Apparently we're planning talks with Ramsey, Cech, Welbeck, Nacho and Theo before xmas to avoid another situation like we have now.

Not being funny but we missed the boat, Wellbeck and Theo need to be sold or released and Monreal is already 31 and who knows how long he has left at the top now, likewise Cech at 35 who hasn't been playing too well. Ramsey is younger but just doesn't seem to be delivering.

We don't really need to hold on to most of those players, I'd sell at least 3 of them, to hear we're trying to hold onto these chumps sums up this club, mediocre. Not being funny but Welbeck is really awful, can't shoot for toffee and is never going to improve and Walcott has been here 11 years now and it's really not worked out, why are we still holding onto him, this club takes an eternity to learn anything.

We needed to hold onto players like Ox, Sanchez and Ozil not some of the above, clueless club.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If that were true, Real Madrid should have won a lot more CL titles considering they didn't win one when they had Ronaldo, Beckham, Owen, Zidane, Figo....It took them 10 years to win the CL again despite always breaking transfer record year after year. Took 10 years for Barca to win it again after the Cruyff era and the same for Bayern. Again, I think we're seeing the Ronaldo/Messi era. I highly doubt Wenger will ever win the CL but can't rule anything out in football considering what we've seen already. Heck, Atletico only lost to Real on a penalty shoot out in the CL final. It's not as if they hadn't beaten Real Madrid that season before either. Thin line.

In football in general terms of course there is a clear correlation between money spent and success

In La Liga since the start of the century, there have been in fact four ocasions where the title wasn't won by Real Madrid or Barcelona. Deportivo in 2000, Valencia in 2002 and 2004 and Atletico Madrid in 2014

In Italy, Juve far and away have been the dominant team even with the Calciopoli scandal

Ditto Bayern who I believe have won 11 Bundesliga titles since the turn of the century

And yes Real's money and reputation finally told, and that's why they and Barca between them have mopped up two thirds of the last nine Champions league titles.

Will that always be the case? I don't know for definite but the trend is clearly established. Other teams that aren't as big spending or reputation wise may win it but they will tend to be the outlier.

[Power n Glory]

In football in general terms of course there is a clear correlation between money spent and success

In La Liga since the start of the century, there have been in fact four ocasions where the title wasn't won by Real Madrid or Barcelona. Deportivo in 2000, Valencia in 2002 and 2004 and Atletico Madrid in 2014

In Italy, Juve far and away have been the dominant team even with the Calciopoli scandal

Ditto Bayern who I believe have won 11 Bundesliga titles since the turn of the century

And yes Real's money and reputation finally told, and that's why they and Barca between them have mopped up two thirds of the last nine Champions league titles.

Will that always be the case? I don't know for definite but the trend is clearly established. Other teams that aren't as big spending or reputation wise may win it but they will tend to be the outlier.

You're moving the conversation from CL to domestic leagues. Also, you're ignoring the Messi and Ronaldo factor. It's a fierce competition between the two since 2008. We've never seen this in football before. Nearly a decade of two athletes trying to get one up on the other. I think their hunger for success and the marketing money that they generate is partly why Barca and Madrid haven't been able to coast.

[Niall_Quinn]

Apparently we're planning talks with Ramsey, Cech, Welbeck, Nacho and Theo before xmas to avoid another situation like we have now.

Not being funny but we missed the boat, Wellbeck and Theo need to be sold or released and Monreal is already 31 and who knows how long he has left at the top now, likewise Cech at 35 who hasn't been playing too well. Ramsey is younger but just doesn't seem to be delivering.

We don't really need to hold on to most of those players, I'd sell at least 3 of them, to hear we're trying to hold onto these chumps sums up this club, mediocre. Not being funny but Welbeck is really awful, can't shoot for toffee and is never going to improve and Walcott has been here 11 years now and it's really not worked out, why are we still holding onto him, this club takes an eternity to learn anything.

We needed to hold onto players like Ox, Sanchez and Ozil not some of the above, clueless club.

Theo's already on 140k a week. What will the be offering him? 180k? 200k? Why? Crazy.

[Niall_Quinn]

I was thinking earlier how the club's handling of contract renewals has been nothing short of shocking and as we head into 2018, things look a lot bleaker than this summer. Ozil and Alexis will probably leave and not only will they walk for free, we will need to replace them and it won't be cheap. Santi will also probably leave for free and how we've missed him! The likes of Mustafi, Peres and Belerin have all requested to be sold and will probably get their wish. Wilshere, Giroud and Merts have been told they're either up for sale or not part of the future and letting them go means we have to get replacements (again with not much transfer fees). Ramsay will have a year left on his contact (don't rate him myself) and i wouldn't be surprised if a big club came in for him.

Then you have dross like Walcott, Debuchy, Jenkison etc stinking up the place it is looking a lot less rosy.

With an owner who shows 0 intentions on investing or even competing, we are in deep doodoo.

You are forgetting, Gazidis confirmed today we've had a good transfer window and we've shown a lot of ambition. So I expect that to carry on next season. Never fear, Stan, Ivan and Arsene are on the case. Indeed, come May I expect we'll hear talk of a war chest. It's all good. Ideal.

[Niall_Quinn]

Also, Wenger confirmed we'll be back in for Lemar next summer. He'll definitely want to come here if he has another big season. I can't think of anywhere else he'd want to go and we'll definitely pay the big money Monaco will be asking. So that's one in the bag. I also expect Alexis and Ozil will realise the error of their ways and sign new contracts. We wouldn't give them the money they wanted when they asked, so I expect we'll given them the even bigger amounts they'll be able to demand when they are eligible to go on a free. Really, I can't see what could go wrong here. Squad looks like it will be really strong come 2018.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're moving the conversation from CL to domestic leagues. Also, you're ignoring the Messi and Ronaldo factor. It's a fierce competition between the two since 2008. We've never seen this in football before. Nearly a decade of two athletes trying to get one up on the other. I think their hunger for success and the marketing money that they generate is partly why Barca and Madrid haven't been able to coast.

At the end of my previous conversation I took to saying that money has always been a key factor in deciding the destination of trophies in club football, so there was no reason not to Segway onto leagues.

Real Madrid paid almost 90 million for Ronaldo, Messi wouldn't stay at Barcelona without their massive reputation and their ability to pay him a massive salary.

Barca had struggled a bit in the champions league between 2011 and 2014 by their standards, recruiting Neymar and Suarez for over a 100 million between them made the difference in 2015 competition.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Bit of a Q&A with Wenger, talks about transfers etc interesting answer to this one about the CL:




He's clearly not bothered about the CL, unlike Ferguson for whom it was the holy grail until he won it. How can you not be bothered about winning the biggest prize in club football (he's obvioulsy content with getting thrashed in the last 16 then I guess or even just qualifying for the CL)?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41145505
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41145505)
Because he knows for a fact that he can't win it, so it doesn't mean anything to him anymore.

[Özim]

Theo's already on 140k a week. What will the be offering him? 180k? 200k? Why? Crazy.

Totally crazy, we should be selling the guy not offering him a new contract, another odd decision in a long line of them, as someone had mentioned Wenger sees himself as more of a father than manager, that's another issue with him (if there aren't enough already!).

[Özim]

Also, Wenger confirmed we'll be back in for Lemar next summer. He'll definitely want to come here if he has another big season. I can't think of anywhere else he'd want to go and we'll definitely pay the big money Monaco will be asking. So that's one in the bag. I also expect Alexis and Ozil will realise the error of their ways and sign new contracts. We wouldn't give them the money they wanted when they asked, so I expect we'll given them the even bigger amounts they'll be able to demand when they are eligible to go on a free. Really, I can't see what could go wrong here. Squad looks like it will be really strong come 2018.

Wasn't interested in the summer why would he be anymore interested in January. We're yesterdays club, top players would be mad to come here because we're only going one way, Liverpool have now jumped above us in terms of desirability and it's only going to get worse, the damage that is being one to the clubs reputation at the moment is very worrying.

[Özim]

Because he knows for a fact that he can't win it, so it doesn't mean anything to him anymore.

Probably right, but then qualifying for it is a non achievement then, all those years qualifying have been meaningless in all ways but financial, when are we going to get a decent manager who prioritises football again because this guy is a joke and has been for a number of years.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wasn't interested in the summer why would he be anymore interested in January. We're yesterdays club, top players would be mad to come here because we're only going one way, Liverpool have now jumped above us in terms of desirability and it's only going to get worse, the damage that is being one to the clubs reputation at the moment is very worrying.

The breaking point was always going to arrive and the break itself was always going to be sudden. Wenger and his mates just kept adding problem after problem and let each of those problems gain more weight. The reputation and history of the club is strong and will be strong again in time, when these fuckers have gone, but there's only so much weight that any club can bear. It will take great effort, experience and expense to repair the damage done over years of neglect and incompetence.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Probably right, but then qualifying for it is a non achievement then, all those years qualifying have been meaningless in all ways but financial, when are we going to get a decent manager who prioritises football again because this guy is a joke and has been for a number of years.

'It's all about the money, it's all about the dum, dum, dum..dum..dum, dums'

[KSE Comedy Club]

The breaking point was always going to arrive and the break itself was always going to be sudden. Wenger and his mates just kept adding problem after problem and let each of those problems gain more weight. The reputation and history of the club is strong and will be strong again in time, when these fuckers have gone, but there's only so much weight that any club can bear. It will take great effort, experience and expense to repair the damage done over years of neglect and incompetence.

Maybe jabba can put his Russian contacts to good use and kill the lot of them before launching a successful takeover.

He's the only one willing to pour the cash in required tbh.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe jabba can put his Russian contacts to good use and kill the lot of them before launching a successful takeover.

He's the only one willing to pour the cash in required tbh.

Be nice to see him and Kroenke kill each other

[Özim]

Gazidis sent an email to the players telling them they can win the title with our improved squad apparently. Great news, that is sure to convince them.

The lot of them need to go, this guy saying the transfer window has been a success is deluded, everyone with any sense knows it was a disaster, the club is totally delusional and when they crash and burn like they always do it still won't register as failure.

How have we managed to put together such a vast group of absolute failures at one club?

[Ralpheroo72]

Did the fax for the Trabelsi transfer come through yet?

[Özim]

The breaking point was always going to arrive and the break itself was always going to be sudden. Wenger and his mates just kept adding problem after problem and let each of those problems gain more weight. The reputation and history of the club is strong and will be strong again in time, when these fuckers have gone, but there's only so much weight that any club can bear. It will take great effort, experience and expense to repair the damage done over years of neglect and incompetence.

I agree, not to mention the fact that when Wenger leaves everything is so much about him any other manager will have quite a job of sorting out his mess.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No manager who comes after Wenger will take on the responsibilities he does

They will want a director of football and other shit to streamline the operation. And players who are hedging their bets will be more likely to want to sign up to a new contract.

Whilst I do largely agree that the longer Wenger is retained the bigger the puddle of piss to mop up. But the reason we are in a crisis is because we have one deluded old man doing everything. That will end with him.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-new-contract-arsenal-latest-news-thomas-lemar-kylian-mbappe-a7927951.html

Wenger admits he hesitated in signing a new deal.


Yes, I hesitated to extend for personal reasons. I’ve been at Arsenal for 20 years, and I’m always wondering if I should continue to lead the club. We were doing quite badly last season.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-new-contract-arsenal-latest-news-thomas-lemar-kylian-mbappe-a7927951.html

Wenger admits he hesitated in signing a new deal.

I don't know about you but for me that is directly contradictory to his attitude last season, where he was dismissive of criticism and seemed to believe he had an automatic right to extend his contract. I think if he genuinely had doubts he wouldn't have superseded the board the way he did.
This sounds to me like he's trying in vein to build bridges with fans because I think he does at least acknowledge that if they all turn against him big time, it's untenable for him.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-new-contract-arsenal-latest-news-thomas-lemar-kylian-mbappe-a7927951.html

Wenger admits he hesitated in signing a new deal.

Saw that in another paper and the quote was different. There it was claimed he said, '...last season went quite badly'. Interesting how they change the actual words. Nothing at all can be relied upon in the media.

Regardless, what reaction does Wenger expect from his musing? He's always wondering if he should continue to lead? Is that what he thinks he's doing? Or is he gloating? This is what you could have won, but then I signed.

[Özim]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-new-contract-arsenal-latest-news-thomas-lemar-kylian-mbappe-a7927951.html

Wenger admits he hesitated in signing a new deal.

The question is why didn't he leave, there was no real reason for him to stay, he can't compete and last season was a disaster.

I don't entirely believe this, thing he's just saying what people want to hear, he was always staying IMO.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't know about you but for me that is directly contradictory to his attitude last season, where he was dismissive of criticism and seemed to believe he had an automatic right to extend his contract. I think if he genuinely had doubts he wouldn't have superseded the board the way he did.
This sounds to me like he's trying in vein to build bridges with fans because I think he does at least acknowledge that if they all turn against him big time, it's untenable for him.

He's always happy to be conciliatory towards the fans - once he's got his way, in totality.

[Niall_Quinn]

The risk Wenger runs now is losing respect from the fans who may think he's an awful manager but still a good bloke who loves the club. I gave up believing the latter a while back because somebody who loves the club doesn't do what he's done and doesn't keep telling the lies he tells. But plenty still preface everything they say about Wenger with, I respect him. That will go soon, depending on how long he insists on hanging on.

[Niall_Quinn]

Also, it would be interesting to hear from Wenger on WHY he hesitated. What does he think is wrong at the club? Where does he feel he's gone wrong? What mistakes does he acknowledge making? I bet his answers, if here ever offered any, would be very different to the average fan's take on things.

I believe I was little bit too committed to success, I believe I was little bit obsessed with ambition, I believe I was little bit too active in the transfer window, I wonder what fantasies he'd create?

[Power n Glory]

I don't know about you but for me that is directly contradictory to his attitude last season, where he was dismissive of criticism and seemed to believe he had an automatic right to extend his contract. I think if he genuinely had doubts he wouldn't have superseded the board the way he did.
This sounds to me like he's trying in vein to build bridges with fans because I think he does at least acknowledge that if they all turn against him big time, it's untenable for him.

Very dismissive and he was trying to shift the blame over to the fans with that 'hostile environment' jab. No idea what's going on right now but you might be right about an attempt to build bridges. It's an absolute cluster fuck. I think they all know they've fell asleep at the wheel. But if they don't.....

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Simeone signs a two year extension at Atheltico until 2020. That's him out of the picture then for a while.

Annoying how we missed out on the glut of top quality managers that were available a couple of years ago simply because Wenger was too reluctant to give up power. When he does go we're probably going to end up having to get someone like Eddie Howe in ...... sigh.



Did the fax for the Trabelsi transfer come through yet?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-310832/Arsenal-sign-Trabelsi-4m-move.html


Daily Mail :haha:

Daily Mail Readers :haha:

What a pile of shit.

[Özim]

Simeone signs a two year extension at Atheltico until 2020. That's him out of the picture then for a while.

Annoying how we missed out on the glut of top quality managers that were available a couple of years ago simply because Wenger was too reluctant to give up power. When he does go we're probably going to end up having to get someone like Eddie Howe in ...... sigh.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-310832/Arsenal-sign-Trabelsi-4m-move.html


Daily Mail :haha:

Daily Mail Readers :haha:

What a pile of shit.

Simeone will never end up here, which is a shame because he's exactly what we need, a man who is tactically astute, can instill discipline, has an eye for talent, creates a real team with really great spirit and can beat the best teams and raise the level of his club.

But yeah looking at what they say about Kroenke and his other franchises he doesn't really care too much who's in charge, he'll happily employ some nobody with an awful record so it doesn't bode well for us, when you add in Wenger who will probably have a say and wants some unknown Wenger clone to take over, well........the chances of us getting a top manager are shrinking by the minute.

[Özim]

Apparently Kroenke wants us to win trophies, but looks at the model of Leicester (not the other bigger clubs) as the way to win the league according to David Ornstein.

What a joke, Leicester are a small club in comparison with low gate receipts, we make a tonne of money, have two billionaires (one of which would put his own money in) and have decades of success and history. It gets better by the day, we we're suppose to move to the Emirates to compete with the biggest clubs, now we're just competing with Leicester!!!

[Niall_Quinn]

Next summer's transfer window begins:


Arsenal and Everton to battle it out with Juventus for Cagliari’s North Korean striker Han Kwang-song

And there are people here who say we can't win the CL :sulk:

[Letters]

I would usually say I'll judge it at the end of the season but I'm calling it: I don't think we will win the CL this year.

[Niall_Quinn]

I would usually say I'll judge it at the end of the season but I'm calling it: I don't think we will win the CL this year.

If, in the unlikely event, we don't win the CL this year, we'll know who to blame. Stan wants to win trophies, why don't you?

[AFC Leveller]

The decline is only starting, we are a club heading towards free fall and nobody cans stop it.

[dostoy]

It will get much worse before it begins to get better.

At least I hope it does, its the only way to get Wenger out which is the ONLY objective this season.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Simeone will never end up here, which is a shame because he's exactly what we need, a man who is tactically astute, can instill discipline, has an eye for talent, creates a real team with really great spirit and can beat the best teams and raise the level of his club.

But yeah looking at what they say about Kroenke and his other franchises he doesn't really care too much who's in charge, he'll happily employ some nobody with an awful record so it doesn't bode well for us, when you add in Wenger who will probably have a say and wants some unknown Wenger clone to take over, well........the chances of us getting a top manager are shrinking by the minute.

Honestly wouldn't be shocked if Kroenke's thinks we're doing well because we've won three FA cups recently (and he's attended all three of them), which I wouldn't be surprised if he viewed as the Superbowl equivalent of English Football and wondering why our "spoiled fanbase" is constantly whinging. He's probably that ignorant of modern day football.


It relates to what I said before, we really need some football people on the board in tune with the modern game instead of clueless Yanks and Tory shitheads who prefer Horse racing.


Next summer's transfer window begins:



And there are people here who say we can't win the CL :sulk:


Interesting. Seems like we've got a thing for Koreans after nearly signing the South Korean Legend, "Foo King-Nothing" last week.

[Niall_Quinn]

Honestly wouldn't be shocked if Kroenke's thinks we're doing well because we've won three FA cups recently (and he's attended all three of them), which I wouldn't be surprised if he viewed as the Superbowl equivalent of English Football and wondering why our "spoiled fanbase" is constantly whinging. He's probably that ignorant of modern day football.


It relates to what I said before, we really need some football people on the board in tune with the modern game instead of clueless Yanks and Tory shitheads who prefer Horse racing.




Interesting. Seems like we've got a thing for Koreans after nearly signing the South Korean Legend, "Foo King-Nothing" last week.

And don't forget his mate, Hoo Fuk Dat.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Things are gonna turn really nasty this season for wenger and co.

I didn't want to see it and wanted him to leave on a good note.

Now it will be sour and full of anger and now I just think he deserves everything he gets from here on in.

[Marc Overmars]

We always say it's going to turn nasty but it never goes the whole hog.

Wenger somehow always manages to claw himself back from the brink of total oblivion. Which is enough for a lot of people to accept that it could be better but also be so much worse.

[Niall_Quinn]

Welcome to the party Robbie. We thought you'd got lost, but better late than never.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUhf8gX_QMA

[Letters]

We always say it's going to turn nasty but it never goes the whole hog.

Wenger somehow always manages to claw himself back from the brink of total oblivion. Which is enough for a lot of people to accept that it could be better but also be so much worse.

Dunno. It was getting pretty nasty last season. The FA Cup win placated people somewhat and had he gone then he could have done so with a shred of dignity.
Soon as he signed that contract Wenger must have known that if we got off to a bad start this year then it would get nasty again.
We always tend to go on runs which placate people for a bit but if we don't it could get very hostile.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dunno. It was getting pretty nasty last season. The FA Cup win placated people somewhat and had he gone then he could have done so with a shred of dignity.
Soon as he signed that contract Wenger must have known that WHEN we got off to a bad start this year then it would get nasty again.
We always tend to go on runs which placate people for a bit but if we don't it could get very hostile.

:gp:

[Özim]

We always say it's going to turn nasty but it never goes the whole hog.

Wenger somehow always manages to claw himself back from the brink of total oblivion. Which is enough for a lot of people to accept that it could be better but also be so much worse.

Agree with this lose a couple and it really gets ramped up but as soon as we win 2 or 3 (even if the opposition is average) it all dies down and people are reasomably happy again, there's never any consistency.

The fact are we'll never challenge for the big prizes (heck Kroenke even cites the Leicester model as the one we follow, with minmal investment) and a few wins here and there really don't change a thing, we also always have a tendency to win a few games at the end of the season, usually when there's no major prize left to play for and that always placates the fans.

What would be needed consistent discontent regardless of these wins against lesser sides, because ultimately they just gloss over the cracks and the same thing has been happening year on year for a long time.

On another note, interesting to see how Ozil and Ramsey excel for their countries and yet are not so great playing for us, Wenger must be doing something wrong with them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think there's going to be much oportunity for things to get better soon

Our next away games are Chelsea, Watford, Everton and Man City

Now with the exception of Watford how many of those games do you imagine us winning?

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think there's going to be much oportunity for things to get better soon

Our next away games are Chelsea, Watford, Everton and Man City

Now with the exception of Watford how many of those games do you imagine us winning?

The only reason to watch our games now is out of morbid fascination. Can we get any worse? Is that even possible? Can the club get any greedier? Can Kroenke become an even bigger cunt? Can Wenger stretch the conceivable limits of incompetence and voyage off into the realm of the inconceivable? Will Bellerin put a proper cross in?

[Mac76]

The only reason to watch our games now is out of morbid fascination. Can we get any worse? Is that even possible? Can the club get any greedier? Can Kroenke become an even bigger cunt? Can Wenger stretch the conceivable limits of incompetence and voyage off into the realm of the inconceivable? Will Bellerin put a proper cross in?

Hi, i've just joined the board and this is the first post i read :D

I agree with the 'morbid fascination' bit and in answer to your questions:

- unfortunately, yes
- probably though how much can we get for Ozil or anyone anyway?
- definitely not possible
- totally, yes
- seriously? no way...

[Letters]

Welcome to the den of misery :tiphat:

[The Emirates Gallactico]

New posters joining GW in 2017 ..... :faint:

[Mac76]

Welcome to the den of misery :tiphat:

thanks :d

[Mac76]

New posters joining GW in 2017 ..... :faint:

well i've got to let off steam somewhere :d

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

well i've got to let off steam somewhere :d

The last time someone joined this place, it was run off steam power

[Letters]

The last time someone joined this place, it was run off steam power

<_<

Hamsters on treadmills actually :p

[Niall_Quinn]

Get Ma from under the bed and tell her to fix a welcome, there's a newcomer!

[Niall_Quinn]

This fucking guy.


Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger believes the January transfer window must be scrapped as it leads unsettled players to focus on their next move rather than playing for their clubs.

'The players who do not play or the players who are tapped up in October they already start again to think: 'Where do I go in January?'. That's not a way to be on board with a football club...'

'We are here to entertain people and you can do that with people who are really on board together, to achieve something together and not every minute that it doesn't go well to think: 'Where can I go next?''

'I believe that we have to bring some decency. We all complain today that it has become too much a business, but we can do something about it. We have that responsibility in the game,' he added in the interview released on Tuesday.

'You can't have a player preparing for a vital football game and still be on the phone at 4 o'clock: 'Do I go or not?' or 'How much is it?', 'Where do I go?'

'The ideal situation would be to have a transfer period that is closed 48 hours before the first game of the championship and to close it completely until the season after.'

[Özim]

This fucking guy.
The guy turns it into a business rather than a sport with his constant penny pinching and lack of desire to win whilst settling for being a 4th place loser.

Moreover he says they're here to entertain and yet our football is rubbish and totally bores most of the fans, he wouldn't know the meaning of entertainment.

[Power n Glory]

This fucking guy.

Has it finally dawned on him that we're not in an 'ideal' situation and why it won't become a trend in football because we'll have to go through the same shit during the winter? We'll have a season of speculation and distractions. Fine work.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think he knew he was bullshitting when he said that, still feels the need to Goebels his fuck ups

Like the young kid trying to impress the girl with his moves falls on his arse but totally meant to do it

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But then who knows the guy is a mass of contradictions

He is the first one at the training ground and the last one to leave at night and yet the team seem negligently unprepared, what is he doing all day?

He is understood to regard his players as sons and refuses to be too disciplinarian with them, and yet there appears to be very little in the way of personal relationship especially if we take Ox at his word. Could it just be that as has been said of him many times he is just simply adverse to confrontation.

And that's before we get onto his quixotic approach to spending.

I do honestly wonder if we are getting past the point of someone who simply is stubborn and entrenched and need to ask if this guy is in full command of his faculties. After almost ten years of having had no checks and balances that would have given him an unhealthy dose of megalomania, but you wonder if something else is going on upstairs.

[Power n Glory]

But then who knows the guy is a mass of contradictions

He is the first one at the training ground and the last one to leave at night and yet the team seem negligently unprepared, what is he doing all day?

He is understood to regard his players as sons and refuses to be too disciplinarian with them, and yet there appears to be very little in the way of personal relationship especially if we take Ox at his word. Could it just be that as has been said of him many times he is just simply adverse to confrontation.

And that's before we get onto his quixotic approach to spending.

I do honestly wonder if we are getting past the point of someone who simply is stubborn and entrenched and need to ask if this guy is in full command of his faculties. After almost ten years of having had no checks and balances that would have given him an unhealthy dose of megalomania, but you wonder if something else is going on upstairs.

What did Ox say?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There is an interview for Liverpool where he talks up Jurgen Klopp and especially goes out of his way to mention the personal relationship he cultivates with his players. Possibly reading between the lines but seems like a dig at Wenger. Le Grove posted the video yesterday.

Wenger is very aloof an individual so it's not that surprising

[Letters]

This fucking guy.

Do you actually disagree with what he's saying?

[Marc Overmars]

There is an interview for Liverpool where he talks up Jurgen Klopp and especially goes out of his way to mention the personal relationship he cultivates with his players. Possibly reading between the lines but seems like a dig at Wenger. Le Grove posted the video yesterday.

Wenger is very aloof an individual so it's not that surprising

That's why I think Ox could be a success there. You can tell Klopp's players absolutely love playing for him and Ox is the kind of hard working guy who would easily buy into his philosophy.

[Letters]

What did Ox say?

"Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!"

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you actually disagree with what he's saying?

The point is that everything is a deflection. It's not my fault I can't get my shit together and make a decision. It's the transfer window that conspires against me

[Power n Glory]

There is an interview for Liverpool where he talks up Jurgen Klopp and especially goes out of his way to mention the personal relationship he cultivates with his players. Possibly reading between the lines but seems like a dig at Wenger. Le Grove posted the video yesterday.

Wenger is very aloof an individual so it's not that surprising

That’s a surprise. Ox signed for us when he was 16. You would have thought Wenger would have had a close relationship with him. I guess it’s different for all players. I still remember Wenger telling a story of Theo having to knock on his door to find out why he wasn’t getting picked for games when constantly being placed on the bench. This is early in Theo’s career. I would have assumed back then that Wenger was a ‘father figure’ a mentor and coaching Theo every step of the way but that statement painted a picture of a more distant relationship.

Is he soft on discipline or too distant from his players to actually have control? Will check the Le Grove article. A lot of strange shit is happening.

[Power n Glory]

Do you actually disagree with what he's saying?

Wenger is right. But did this not cross his mind when he said we were in ideal situation and when he said it may cost us more to keep Sanchez?

It would help if more people challenged his opinion and thought about what he’s saying instead of just agreeing with it blindly.

[Letters]

The point is that everything is a deflection. It's not my fault I can't get my shit together and make a decision. It's the transfer window that conspires against me

OK, but is what he's saying wrong?

[Özim]

Do you actually disagree with what he's saying?

When you add context, yes I disagree, he talks about all this and does the opposite so in my view it's nonsense.

I don't think the January window should be scrapped at all personally, preferred it when you could sign a player any time you like like the old days.

I wouldn't want to have just one transfer window.

[Özim]

OK, but is what he's saying wrong?

For a start if you keep players under contract it's a non issue, problem is we made a mess of it and didn't. A player will only want to move realistically if he's not happy or he has a better offer, if you keep your players happy and contracted it's really not a problem.

Most players don't move in the middle of the season anyway, January is usually quiet, I've not seen many players being unsettled by the window.

As usual the guy makes a mountain out of a molehill, always playing the victim when much of this is self inflicted (the contract situations)

[Letters]

Wenger is right. But did this not cross his mind when he said we were in ideal situation and when he said it may cost us more to keep Sanchez?

It would help if more people challenged his opinion and thought about what he’s saying instead of just agreeing with it blindly.

The "ideal situation" comments were clearly bullshit, I think with this he has more of a point.
I don't think anyone agrees with his comments blindly - no-one on here - but they do seem to disagree with his comments blindly, even if they actually agree with them.

[Letters]

When you add context, yes I disagree, he talks about all this and does the opposite so in my view it's nonsense.

I don't think the January window should be scrapped at all personally, preferred it when you could sign a player any time you like like the old days.

I wouldn't want to have just one transfer window.

I think there's a case that there's either a transfer window in the close season and then once the season is going the squad is settled, or a free for all like the old days.
Don't have an objection to either really and I don't have a huge problem with the current system but it is a bit random we have a mid-season transfer window when we don't have a mid-season break.
I don't care that much but Wenger's opinion about this isn't in the "ideal situation" category.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The "ideal situation" comments were clearly bullshit, I think with this he has more of a point.
I don't think anyone agrees with his comments blindly - no-one on here - but they do seem to disagree with his comments blindly, even if they actually agree with them.

I think the whole transfer window thing is bollocks and contributes to inflated prices. If a player doesn't want to be at a club he doesn't want to be. I think we were better off when you could within reason make any signing you liked between June and March the following year.

[Power n Glory]

The "ideal situation" comments were clearly bullshit, I think with this he has more of a point.
I don't think anyone agrees with his comments blindly - no-one on here - but they do seem to disagree with his comments blindly, even if they actually agree with them.

Some people see through the bullshit. If he had command of his team and affairs, the January window wouldn’t be a problem. If he had planned for the Summer window and not waited until deadline day, he wouldn’t have to worry about players not being focussed.

This is a guy that talks as if leaving negotiations down to the last minute of the window is a poker strategy! He puts himself in these positions and then complains about the structure. He wouldn’t even have to worry about this stuff if he’d just delegate and get Director of Football in.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you actually disagree with what he's saying?

Yes. 100%

If he was saying it because he wants the transfer window reformed for the good of the game then fine. No objection.

But he's saying it because he's a complete fuck-up in the transfer window and doesn't want to handle the pressures that every other manager faces. So his intentions are devious, as usual.

If we were the only club who had to suffer this then he'd have cause for complaint. But we aren't. It may be a shitty playing field but everyone is required to play on it. Including him. So he should shut up and get on with it.

OF COURSE ALEXIS WILL BE LOOKING TO JANUARY FFS! :doh:

What does Wenger expect? He refused to meet the player's demands, he let the situation drag on and then he agreed to sell the player after stating that wouldn't happen. So he made his own bed and then shit in it. Tough luck.

He also refused to get the chequebook out and buy the players we need to signal to the squad and the fans we have an ounce of ambition. His fake bullshit bid for Lemar at the last minute isn't a sign of ambition, it's another indicator of deceit and and a piece in another fucked up transfer window. I mean, what a farce! The whole summer chasing a player he could have had for 30 million less than the final desperate bid? This Wenger guy is clueless. We know it, he knows it.

So what do clueless people prefer when faced with a challenge? They prefer the challenge to go away. And that's all he's doing here. Pretending he's fighting for the game but in reality trying to avoid the challenges.

Same as a politician who says he wants to help the poor or save the planet. Worthy goals, no doubt. Impossible to disagree with. Unless they are being proposed by a devious cunt who is surfing altruism with an ulterior motive.

I'll wait until somebody with credibility suggests these changes and then I'll get behind them.

[Niall_Quinn]

OK, but is what he's saying wrong?

??????

Seriously?

Is this how it works? Are you really incapable of seeing through bullshit like this? Judge people by their actions, not their words. And when their words match their actions then you have an honest man. Is that Wenger? No.

So the question becomes, WHY is Wenger saying this? Whatever it is he's saying, because anyone can pick out a bunch of words and string them together into any kind of Kumbaya sentiment, what are his intentions? Ten years on - what do you think his intentions are?

[Penguin]

There is an interview for Liverpool where he talks up Jurgen Klopp and especially goes out of his way to mention the personal relationship he cultivates with his players. Possibly reading between the lines but seems like a dig at Wenger. Le Grove posted the video yesterday.

Wenger is very aloof an individual so it's not that surprising

Not surprised by that at all. There are loads of examples, like the Theo one that Delusions mentioned. You get players like Perez and Joel Campbell who have no idea why they aren't playing or why a CM is playing on the wing instead of them. Wenger doesn't bother to talk to them.

Why can't he have a brief chat with them to explain what they're doing wrong? Even if a player is playing well you would expect the manager to be giving them advice on how to improve. Baffling man management.

[Niall_Quinn]

When you add context, yes I disagree, he talks about all this and does the opposite so in my view it's nonsense.

I don't think the January window should be scrapped at all personally, preferred it when you could sign a player any time you like like the old days.

I wouldn't want to have just one transfer window.

Yeah. Odd, isn't it? We have all the Euro laws in connection with Bosman that freed the "slaves", but they are only free at certain times of the year. A contract is a contract. Where's the law that states job offers can't be made all year around?

[Letters]

So the question becomes, WHY is Wenger saying this?
That is one question.
The other question is "does he have a point?". And that could lead to a potentially interesting debate, one you immediately shut down by your default position of violently shouting down anything he says or does, even if at some level you agree with it.

[Niall_Quinn]

That is one question.
The other question is "does he have a point?". And that could lead to a potentially interesting debate, one you immediately shut down by your default position of violently shouting down anything he says or does, even if at some level you agree with it.

You used ONE sentence from my TWO responses and then claimed I violently shouted him down.

Well done.

Yes, Wenger is correct as always. The fans are against him, the media is against him, the rules of the game are against him, the big money clubs are against him, the economy is against him. Well done to him too for pointing all this out.

[Ralpheroo72]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/11023854/kylian-mbappe-was-close-to-signing-for-arsenal-says-arsene-wenger

[Özim]

Yeah. Odd, isn't it? We have all the Euro laws in connection with Bosman that freed the "slaves", but they are only free at certain times of the year. A contract is a contract. Where's the law that states job offers can't be made all year around?

Yes I agree it is odd, like I said being able to buy players whenever you want makes more sense to me, would probably bring prices down a bit as well as clubs wouldn't have a limited time to get all players they need (knowing us we'd probably not sign anyone until December probably Christmas Eve!).

Got no problem with the window though, like I said not many clubs buy then anyway and it doesn't disrupt much. Of course it's an issue for us with the way we handled contract but it's entirely self inflicted, we should have planned and taken appropriate actions. I'd have sold Sanchez last summer for big money if he wasn't willing to sign then and then at least replaced him with someone to notch.

A player is entitled to leave if he wants but I wouldn't let them run down their contracts I'd sell them and replace them when they still have a high market value as most clubs do.

[Özim]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/11023854/kylian-mbappe-was-close-to-signing-for-arsenal-says-arsene-wenger

Another one that got away :sigh: ah well let's add him to the "almost signed" team, it's a great team, apparently only 2% away from domination! :rolleyes:

Let's be honest if we really wanted last year we would have got him, he was unknown, on low money and we were in the CL, the reason we didn't is because we weren't seriously in for him, this is typical AW nonsense. There's actually no need to even say something like this, it serves no purpose.

[Özim]

There is an interview for Liverpool where he talks up Jurgen Klopp and especially goes out of his way to mention the personal relationship he cultivates with his players. Possibly reading between the lines but seems like a dig at Wenger. Le Grove posted the video yesterday.

Wenger is very aloof an individual so it's not that surprising

I can see that to be honest, Klopp looks like the kind of manager players would love to play under, Charismatic, open, honest and entertaining, to me he just seems a normal guy trying to enjoy himself managing, must be refreshing for Ox, he probably instills belief and inspires players too.

Can't see what Wenger brings these days, repetitive tactics, teamtalks (if there are any) and basically everything must be tiresome for those playing under him. What you want is a manager with a vision and who believes success is round the corner and is a genuine possibility, not a guy who hails 4th plays as a major success.

[Özim]

The thing about Wenger is, considering everything that's happened you'd think he'd keep his head down concentrate on the task ahead and not get talk about things that just make him look bitter, things that suit his agenda, he's his own worst enemy, never knows when to not say something or not engage with something, he's always very vocal about the great things about the team and the bad things about football and how it hinders success.

Guess what, other clubs manage fine so why is it a problem for him?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/11023862/kylian-mbappe-thomas-lemar-paul-pogba-lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo-the-arsenal-xi-arsene-wenger-could-have-had

:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/11023862/kylian-mbappe-thomas-lemar-paul-pogba-lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo-the-arsenal-xi-arsene-wenger-could-have-had

:lol:

The Lucky Escape Eleven

Wenger wouldn't win anything with that team either. He'd have them all in the wrong positions, he'd have them tapping the ball around aimlessly, he'd have them demotivated, undisciplined and all too busy negotiating their way out to bother with the football. Very much like the current team.

The world is laughing at our ridiculous manager and, by extension, laughing at our club. Justifiably so, because all this list proves is that Wenger is a disaster when it comes to transfers.

[Marc Overmars]

The Lucky Escape Eleven

Wenger wouldn't win anything with that team either. He'd have them all in the wrong positions, he'd have them tapping the ball around aimlessly, he'd have them demotivated, undisciplined and all too busy negotiating their way out to bother with the football. Very much like the current team.

The world is laughing at our ridiculous manager and, by extension, laughing at our club. Justifiably so, because all this list proves is that Wenger is a disaster when it comes to transfers.

What are you talking about? He turned Henry into a striker, bought Vieira for peanuts and told everyone to eat their greens.

[Penguin]

Is Wenger actually proud of 'almost signing' all these players? He loves boasting about it as if it shows how great a talent spotter he is. It's clearly the opposite because he could have bought some of these players for peanuts but shit himself at the thought of taking a risk on them.

Apparently Wenger met with Mbappe and his family 18 months ago and he turned them down because he didn't want to pay 7-8m euros. :lol:

http://www.90min.com/posts/5460697-guillem-balague-posts-shocking-twitter-revelation-about-arsenal-s-attempts-to-sign-mbappe-last-year

[Özim]

Is Wenger actually proud of 'almost signing' all these players? He loves boasting about it as if it shows how great a talent spotter he is. It's clearly the opposite because he could have bought some of these players for peanuts but shit himself at the thought of taking a risk on them.

Apparently Wenger met with Mbappe and his family 18 months ago and he turned them down because he didn't want to pay 7-8m euros. :lol:

http://www.90min.com/posts/5460697-guillem-balague-posts-shocking-twitter-revelation-about-arsenal-s-attempts-to-sign-mbappe-last-year

If he was such a great talent spot most of these players would end up at Arsenal, the fact they don't suggest he doesn't rate that that highly, after all we coughed up a fair amount for dud kids over the years.

His ability to spot players who will rally add to the team is completely off, we rarely ever get top quality players and usually end up with middle of the road players.

[Marc Overmars]

He's as good a talent spotter these days as the average fan.

[AFC Leveller]

Ox revealing why he left. A hint in there about wenger not being able to get te boys playing and up for it.

-----

"That is massive and that is definitely a big plus when you are looking to progress and have that relationship with the manager. That definitely helps.

"And obviously the way his teams play - he gets the boys playing. That is definitely inspirational for me.

"It was one of the instrumental - if not the instrumental - reasons why I felt this place was definitely the place for me."

[Niall_Quinn]

What are you talking about? He turned Henry into a striker, bought Vieira for peanuts and told everyone to eat their greens.

None of those eleven are top top top qualiteeeeeeeeee, and also as well, there is no resale value. We have Coquelin and Walcott who can play there.

[Globalgunner]

They forgot to add Ibra and Yaya Toure.
Wenger is full of crap and everyone knows it. His talent history in the last 12 years is full of calamities. hanging on to dross while allowing quality to slip from his fingers due to his dithering and inability to get rid of players who are clearly hurting the team. Who else will keep Almunia as 1st keeper for 5 seasons. Pair calamity Senderos and Djourou for 3 seasons, refuse to buy a quality CDM after Gilberto was lost to old age.?

His last refuge now is in excuses and deflections. Blaming the system that works for everyone else but somehow not him. Didnt we go for eons with a tranfer window all day of the year. No-one died as a result. It is only because football (sports) are considered special employment, otherwise astute lawyers could justifiably prove that any window is enslavement and unlawful. Could Siemens or Google hold any employee against their will.

The real tragedy of Wenger is that his players are the first to suss him out as a fake and a bullshitter. They all have first hand or close hand knowledge of how other football managers and teams operate. They know Wengers methods are barmy and clueless and in the main destined to fail at the real top end. He hates the transfer window because it allows players to escape his lunatic asylum at the first opportunity. If players can see progress, why wont they stay to see the project through. Ill give him one thing, he knows how to sell a good story to players who are about to join and did not do due diligence on the others currently under his wing. The good players will leave the great players no longer want to join. Ozil must have wished for the warmth of the Madrid bench than signing up for 4 years of fuckuppery with this dingbat manager. Only yamheads like Walcott will love to stay 2 decades or more, moderately talented numbskulls like Ramsey are also looking to bail, after being the main beneficiary of his no instruction career derailment academy.

The end is nigh. Wenger simply cant help himself now. He will stick with his barmy methods like an addict hooked on crystal meth. An intervention is the only thing that can save this man from taking us down to Shiloh with him.

[Power n Glory]

He's as good a talent spotter these days as the average fan.

It cracks me up how often he shares these stories. He's either a poor judge and can't spot real talent or maybe we've got a bunch of world beaters Wenger has ruined. :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger will be a happy bunny. He won't need to think up as many lies each window.


Premier League clubs have agreed for the summer transfer window to officially close before the season begins, starting in 2018.

In a Premier League statement released on Thursday, it has been confirmed that the window 'will end at 17:00 on the Thursday before the start of the season.'

The agreement applies solely to English top flight clubs, meaning players could still be sold between the Premier League's deadline and that of other countries.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ox hits the streets of Liverpool in his hi-visibility stab vest, armed with a handy sized car nicking toolkit.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/nintchdbpict000351020916.jpg?strip=all&w=640&quality=100

[Xhaka Can’t]

I was one of the few to see Yaya play for us at the then annual pre season warm up.

So Wenger can't blame his scouts on this miss. Yaya was right under his nose.

Kolo was good, but if we were going to end up with one Toure, you'd have hoped it was Yaya.

Just like when we could have ended up with Bale or Walnut.

[Power n Glory]

I was one of the few to see Yaya play for us at the then annual pre season warm up.

So Wenger can't blame his scouts on this miss. Yaya was right under his nose.

Kolo was good, but if we were going to end up with one Toure, you'd have hoped it was Yaya.

Just like when we could have ended up with Bale or Walnut.

You never know. Yaya could have ended up like Song or Bale like Walcott. Is he that bad at spotting talent or do we have a terrible youth development system and he can't coach for shit?

[Niall_Quinn]

Looks like Wenger's plan for recovery is to blame everyone and everything else.

Today he'll be most blaming Liverpool.


‘You are not naive enough to think that will not happen,’ Wenger said. ‘I don’t know (if it happened before the loss to Liverpool). I don’t know.

‘Have they been tapped up? Of course. But on the day of a game? I don’t think so, I hope not. But it’s inevitable.

‘France played against Holland on the last day of the transfer window. Do you really think that not one French player or Dutch player had phone calls in the afternoon about a move or not?

‘I am not naive enough to believe that. That’s why you have to scrap it before the season starts.’

[Niall_Quinn]

‘Today in the Premier League, you have 107 players* who go to the final year of their contract.
‘In every club, part are players that the clubs do not want to extend, and part are players that the clubs want to extend but don’t agree for financial reasons. And we have both sides.


‘So at some stage that means you have to quantify the loss of income. And at the end of the day, you decide, “OK, we can do it for two or three, but not for four or five”.’

Supports the reports about Kroenke not wanting to spend a penny of his own money, and we can assume he views the rising bank balance at Arsenal as "his own money". This transfer window gone is all the confirmation anyone could need to judge this ghoul.

* "You have 107 players" - imagine going away and working that out. So, so fucking sad. This is as sad as van Gaal's dossier. Wenger is as big a joke now.

[Power n Glory]

You think that's bad? Sounds like he’s finally realised that he’s been campaigning to pull up the drawbridge but had no idea he’s on the wrong side of the bridge.

Now he wants outside investment and ‘financial doping’. :lol: It's a ruling that does more to protect the status quo and make it much harder for clubs outside of that to compete.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/sep/07/arsene-wenger-calls-end-ffp-rules-u-turn-arsenal


Disillusioned Arsène Wenger calls for end to FFP in major U-turn
• Arsenal manager says rules on spending have become unenforceable
• Wenger suggests financial limits will put off Chinese and US investors



Arsène Wenger has lost faith in one of his guiding principles and called for financial fair play to be scrapped. The Arsenal manager says clubs have found a way to bluff around Uefa’s regulations and it has effectively rendered them unenforceable. He feels that if the Premier League is to “remain the best league in the world” the decision must be taken to revert to no financial limits.

Wenger reflected on a wild summer transfer window in which he suggested that Liverpool had most likely tapped up Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain before taking him from Arsenal for an initial £35m on 31 August. Four days earlier, the midfielder had played for Arsenal in the club’s 4-0 defeat at Anfield. Wenger said he did not know whether Liverpool had spoken to Oxlade-Chamberlain in the hours leading up to kick-off. He hoped they had not.
PSG accused of ‘peeing in the pool’ on FFP rules over Neymar’s £200m move
Read more

Wenger did not make his comments in an angry or accusatory fashion; they were underpinned by realism. In short, tapping up is a part of the modern game. Everybody does it. But Wenger was less willing to shrug off what he sees as the holes in FFP.

He was asked whether he had a view on the complaint made to Uefa by the La Liga president, Javier Tebas, about the summer spending of Paris Saint-Germain and Manchester City. PSG broke the world transfer record with their £198m purchase of Neymar from Barcelona while they took Kylian Mbappé from Monaco on a season‑long loan with an option to buy him for £166m. Uefa are investigating PSG but not City, who have threatened Tebas with legal action. Wenger did have a view and it was strident.

“Financial fair play raises new questions,” Wenger said. “I always did plead for it. Today, I am not convinced that we can maintain it. Football is maybe only at the start of a huge financial investment. It has become the most powerful sport in the world. It means do we have to open the door completely to investments? It is a question we have to raise because, aAt the moment, it looks like we have created rules that cannot be respected. There is nothing worse than when you create rules that are not respected.

“Maybe we are at the crossroads and we have to think, do we open it with complete freedom to investment for people like the Chinese and Americans, who want to invest here [in England]? If you want to remain the best league in the world, that is certainly the way we have to go.

“Do I want to get rid of financial pair play? I think so because there are too many legal ways to get around it. The question, at least, has to be raised. At the moment, it looks like you can buy clubs in China and get the players there, and buy them in other clubs, then get them, after, here. You can get around [FFP]. Am I convinced that, at the moment, the rules are strong enough to make it respected? I’m not sure.”
How can PSG pay £200m for Neymar? What happened to financial fair play?
Read more

Wenger’s remarks on tapping-up came as he explained why he was in favour of the summer transfer window closing before the start of the Premier League season. “You sit there before the games and in players’ minds, they have no clarity,” Wenger said. “Are they in? Are they out? Are they half in? Are they half out? Are they tapped up in the afternoon of the game by people who want to get them out?”


Wenger was asked whether any player in his dressing-room at Liverpool on the Sunday before last had been tapped up in advance of the game or on the day of it. It was clear that the question related to Oxlade-Chamberlain. “I don’t know,” Wenger replied.

Was it his suspicion? “Have they been tapped up?” Wenger said. “Of course. But on the day of a game? I don’t think so. I hope not. But it’s inevitable. France played against Holland on the last day of the transfer window. Do you really think that not one French player or Dutch player had phone-calls in the afternoon about do they move or not? You’re not naive enough to believe that.”

Wenger insisted that he did not regret starting with Oxlade-Chamberlain in the Liverpool game. “If I am a football player, I can perform even if Liverpool is in my head,” he said. “I don’t think that should stop you to perform. Did it? I think he was not worse than any other player on the football pitch.”

[Marc Overmars]

Is tapping up even still a thing?

There's nothing to stop players and agents talking to whoever they want, it's impossible to monitor. The old adage of a club needing to accept an offer first is long gone.

[GP]

I was one of the few to see Yaya play for us at the then annual pre season warm up.

So Wenger can't blame his scouts on this miss. Yaya was right under his nose.

Kolo was good, but if we were going to end up with one Toure, you'd have hoped it was Yaya.

Just like when we could have ended up with Bale or Walnut.

There's lots we can throw at his right now, there's no need to re-write history.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There's lots we can throw at his right now, there's no need to re-write history.

There was a lot of fanfare over Yaya when he played at Barnet in a pre season friendly for us. Whilst I don't want to deconstruct his entire time as manager, I thought it was one of the strangest decisions he's ever made not to take up the option to sign him.

The only explanation I can think of is that he felt he didn't need him when he had Vieira. But still.

[Letters]

I can see that to be honest, Klopp looks like the kind of manager players would love to play under, Charismatic, open, honest and entertaining, to me he just seems a normal guy trying to enjoy himself managing, must be refreshing for Ox, he probably instills belief and inspires players too.

Can't see what Wenger brings these days, repetitive tactics, teamtalks (if there are any) and basically everything must be tiresome for those playing under him. What you want is a manager with a vision and who believes success is round the corner and is a genuine possibility, not a guy who hails 4th plays as a major success.

How do you reconcile the gap you see in quality between Klopp and Wenger with the fact that they only finished a couple of points above us last season and we ended up with a trophy and they didn't?
Asking for a friend :ninja:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How do you reconcile the gap you see in quality between Klopp and Wenger with the fact that they only finished a couple of points above us last season and we ended up with a trophy and they didn't?
Asking for a friend :ninja:

1) last season anyway we had a far better squad than Liverpool

2) It's fair to say that at the moment the trajectory of the clubs are somewhat opposite they passed us as we were on the way down.

3) I distinctly recall Klopps Liverpool beating us three times in a row. With an aggregate of 11-4

4) In 2013 Wigan only finished three points behind Sunderland and won the FA cup. Who do you suppose reckoned they had the better season?.

[Özim]

How do you reconcile the gap you see in quality between Klopp and Wenger with the fact that they only finished a couple of points above us last season and we ended up with a trophy and they didn't?
Asking for a friend :ninja:

Easily, Klopp has just started is project at Liverpool, it's starting to come together but it takes time to implement your methods and bring in the players you want.

Frankly it's a bit embarassing Klop has already outdone Wenger in such a short time, seeing as there was lot to do, their football is great to watch though and they are improving, they aren't quite there yet but they're moving towards it, anyway what about this season when they thrashed us, surely that highlights the gap now.

[GP]

There was a lot of fanfare over Yaya when he played at Barnet in a pre season friendly for us. Whilst I don't want to deconstruct his entire time as manager, I thought it was one of the strangest decisions he's ever made not to take up the option to sign him.

The only explanation I can think of is that he felt he didn't need him when he had Vieira. But still.

He couldn't get a work permit.

[Marc Overmars]

Klopp has had 2 years worth of building. Wenger has had a decade of rebuilding, over and over again. With the time and money Wenger has had, there's not even a comparison to be made.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think it's hard for anyone to argue that Klopp is not currently a better manager than Wenger.

I think he has a lot of the flaws Wenger had as a manager even in his hay day, whilst I think he's a great man motivator I don't think he's the best coach tactically. But what he does have is that his players love him, and he clearly gets the best out of them. I liked Mane when he was at Southampton but Klopp has brought him onto another level.

Klopp was the perfect man for our club but we passed up on it out of loyalty to a has been.

[Power n Glory]

There was a lot of fanfare over Yaya when he played at Barnet in a pre season friendly for us. Whilst I don't want to deconstruct his entire time as manager, I thought it was one of the strangest decisions he's ever made not to take up the option to sign him.

The only explanation I can think of is that he felt he didn't need him when he had Vieira. But still.

Just looked this one up and it could be BS but against Barnet he played as second striker and then moved up front! :lol:

We had other chances to sign Yaya so whatever excuse there was for not picking him up back then, we could have gone for him when he moved from Olympiacos to Monaco or when he went from Monaco to Barca. We were slow to react when his price tag was low and then reluctant to spend when Barca sold him to City.

[Letters]

Easily, Klopp has just started is project at Liverpool, it's starting to come together but it takes time to implement your methods and bring in the players you want.

Frankly it's a bit embarassing Klop has already outdone Wenger in such a short time, seeing as there was lot to do, their football is great to watch though and they are improving, they aren't quite there yet but they're moving towards it, anyway what about this season when they thrashed us, surely that highlights the gap now.

How has he outdone Wenger? They finished top 4 while we didn't but you always dismiss that at as achievement, and it was only 2 points.
And while they won the imaginary top 4 trophy, we won a real one.

Will be interesting to see how they do this season, I think HCZs comment about trajectories is possibly right but it's a bit too early to say for certain.

[Özim]

How has he outdone Wenger? They finished top 4 while we didn't but you always dismiss that at as achievement, and it was only 2 points.
And while they won the imaginary top 4 trophy, we won a real one.

Will be interesting to see how they do this season, I think HCZs comment about trajectories is possibly right but it's a bit too early to say for certain.

No I don't rate top 4, difference is that for Liverpool it's a stepping stone to better things (and they always have an outside chance in the CL), for us it's the holy grail (and we have no hope in the CL).

They play better football, beat us regularly, are progressing, finish above us and just look like a better run club all round, we play average football, never make any progress and are badly run.

Neither is great to be honest, but for Liverpool it's a sign of progress (that's very impotant). FA is 2nd tier as I said many times, it's not the trophy it was 15 years ago, it's a low priority for most clubs, the rewards aren't great either, for me the Europa league is above is as at least a CL spot is up for grabs if you win it and it's a European trophy.

Nice to win it and all that but bored with it now, should just be a stepping stone to greater things not the trophy we pick up as a consolation for being awful in the competitions that really matter.

[Letters]

No I don't rate top 4, difference is that for Liverpool it's a stepping stone to better things.
That remains to be seen.

[Özim]

Just looked this one up and it could be BS but against Barnet he played as second striker and then moved up front! :lol:

We had other chances to sign Yaya so whatever excuse there was for not picking him up back then, we could have gone for him when he moved from Olympiacos to Monaco or when he went from Monaco to Barca. We were slow to react when his price tag was low and then reluctant to spend when Barca sold him to City.

Yeah we had plenty of opportunities to get him, Wenger didn't rate him so so that was that, just like all those other almost signed players who he never rated highly enough to pay the money for.

[Özim]

That remains to be seen.

It does yes, but on the evidence so far they are improving and looking like an excellent team, they do need to sort out the defence but they clearly have identified that as they trie to sign Van Dijk. They've also already signed some guy for next summer who is supposed to be pretty good.

[Power n Glory]

Yeah we had plenty of opportunities to get him, Wenger didn't rate him so so that was that, just like all those other almost signed players who he never rated highly enough to pay the money for.

Wenger didn't rate him, didn't know where to play him either so the player we saw at Barca and City may have turned out different under Wenger. We couldn't get a work permit for him whilst on trail but I'm sure if he were impressed and believed in his talent that much he'd have signed him then loaned him out. Wenger probably didn't like the way Yaya reacted when finding another club to play for since we were dragging our feet. It must be why he never moved for him seasons after. Too much for Wenger to handle.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/8961883/Manchester-City-midfielder-Yaya-Toure-the-one-who-got-away-for-Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wenger.html


“Yaya Touré played for us in a pre-season game as a second striker and he was completely average on the day,” said Arsène Wenger, the Arsenal manager, of the younger Touré’s role in a 0-0 draw at Underhill on July 19, 2003. Reports say City’s barnstorming midfielder missed the game’s best chance.



The promotion of youth, he points out, is a gamble that misfires when the starlet leaves for bigger money five years later. “You need to be brave to put a player in at 18 years of age, and you need to make room for them, which means you not only need to stand up for the players you put in, but as well you have to kick somebody out.”

Wenger first encountered Yaya Touré when the player was 15 and based at Beveren in Belgium. “[Emmanuel] Eboué and Gervinho played there as well. Yaya Touré is a top-class player. We knew that at the time.

"The only problem was to fix him into a position because he can play everywhere. He can play centre-back, as a second striker, as a midfielder and for a long time we didn’t know where to play him.”

[Niall_Quinn]

How has he outdone Wenger? They finished top 4 while we didn't but you always dismiss that at as achievement, and it was only 2 points.
And while they won the imaginary top 4 trophy, we won a real one.

Will be interesting to see how they do this season, I think HCZs comment about trajectories is possibly right but it's a bit too early to say for certain.

Are you fucking serious?

You should start watching the matches again. Not for enjoyment, obviously, but as an indicator of how huge the gap is between us and any half decent side in this league. Just one bad performance, just one bad performance. No. It is the culmination of many outrageous capitulations strung across a decade. The last match we played is considered by some to be the worst performance ever seen in the PL. In reality, there have been a lot of shitty performances so how could they know? But it's safe to say it was among the worst performances ever. And if we played Liverpool again the same thing would happen. Because there's a gulf between us, in terms of the tactics, the work rate, the philosophy and, above all, the ambition. Liverpool are hauling themselves up on a rope. We just fell past them, using gravity. Narrow margins make a difference in competitive sport. Wide margins are catastrophic.

If you are genuinely trying to claim Wenger is in the same league as Klopp then you're completely delusional. I wonder how much evidence and over how long a period you'll require before realising the realities?

[Niall_Quinn]

That remains to be seen.

Everything remains to be seen. Over and over and over and over again.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger first encountered Yaya Touré when the player was 15 and based at Beveren in Belgium. “[Emmanuel] Eboué and Gervinho played there as well. Yaya Touré is a top-class player. We knew that at the time.

That about sums it up. Classic Wenger.

[Özim]

Wenger didn't rate him, didn't know where to play him either so the player we saw at Barca and City may have turned out different under Wenger. We couldn't get a work permit for him whilst on trail but I'm sure if he were impressed and believed in his talent that much he'd have signed him then loaned him out. Wenger probably didn't like the way Yaya reacted when finding another club to play for since we were dragging our feet. It must be why he never moved for him seasons after. Too much for Wenger to handle.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/8961883/Manchester-City-midfielder-Yaya-Toure-the-one-who-got-away-for-Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wenger.html

Interesting he thought Yaya was average and yet was it NQ who said he was the one of the two brothers we should have signed based on their performance on that day (sounds like bitter words by Wenger to me).

I agree he didn't rate him and clearly, he had other opportunities to get him and never did, would have been a perfect fit for us.

[Özim]

That about sums it up. Classic Wenger.

:lol: So let me get this straight, he signed Kolo Toure, signed Eboue, signed Gervinho but failed to sign the most talented player of the lot?

Pretty odd decision to me.

[Power n Glory]

:lol: So let me get this straight, he signed Kolo Toure, signed Eboue, signed Gervinho but failed to sign the most talented player of the lot?

Pretty odd decision to me.

How do you things would have turned out if we signed Yaya?

[Özim]

How do you things would have turned out if we signed Yaya?

He'd have probably played him on the wing and after years of being in and out of the team sold him.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How do you things would have turned out if we signed Yaya?

Probably would have done better in the league in the immediate aftermath of Vieira leaving

I actually think a player like that could have won us one more league title

2007/2008 for me that was a year where we clearly should have won the title, lost three games all season just drew too many.

[Power n Glory]

Probably would have done better in the league in the immediate aftermath of Vieira leaving

I actually think a player like that could have won us one more league title

2007/2008 for me that was a year where we clearly should have won the title, lost three games all season just drew too many.

As Zim said. We have no idea where Wenger would have played Toure.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

How has he outdone Wenger? They finished top 4 while we didn't but you always dismiss that at as achievement, and it was only 2 points.
And while they won the imaginary top 4 trophy, we won a real one.

Will be interesting to see how they do this season, I think HCZs comment about trajectories is possibly right but it's a bit too early to say for certain.

We've had far more resources than Pool have had and they started at a much lower point (constant 5/6/7th finishes) than us. Klopp's improved them in a much more competitive environment than what Wenger had to face when he first started into serious top four contenders at the very least whereas as HCZ says, our current trajectory is heading towards where Pool used to be.

Klopp's done far more with far less than Wenger has. As HCZ and the others have said it's not even debatable anymore. Purely on the football side of things, Wenger is currently the worst out of the top six managers and top seven if you include Koeman because I think he'd do a better job than Wenger has tbh. They may not be able to run an entire massive "organisation" like Wenger does, but they don't have to as they have enough trust in either a DoF or their highers up to do that.

God knows when you're going to get a manager like Klopp available again, so it makes us passing up him when he was available all that more irritating. In terms of footballing vision and longevity/loyalty towards a club, he was the closest Wenger replacement available.

[Marc Overmars]

Probably would have done better in the league in the immediate aftermath of Vieira leaving

I actually think a player like that could have won us one more league title

2007/2008 for me that was a year where we clearly should have won the title, lost three games all season just drew too many.

That season still annoys me, we were so consistent but we just ran out of gas in the end. We still had a chance to recover from the Birmingham disaster but losing at Chelsea and United finished us off.

[Xhaka Can’t]

He couldn't get a work permit.

I'd forgotten about that.

My bad.

[dostoy]

The deluded idiot is now saying that Alexis might sign a new deal with Arsenal.

Alexis would have to be completely fucking stupid to do that, which surely he isn't.

I hope Alexis leaves in January and leaves Wenger/Arsenal (same thing) high and dry and he signs no-one in winter transfer window.

Losing lots of games before and after that will hopefully get that idiot out next summer.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

The deluded idiot is now saying that Alexis might sign a new deal with Arsenal.

Alexis would have to be completely fucking stupid to do that, which surely he isn't.

I hope Alexis leaves in January and leaves Wenger/Arsenal (same thing) high and dry and he signs no-one in winter transfer window.

Losing lots of games before and after that will hopefully get that idiot out next summer.

tbh I can easily see Alexis & Ozil signing Suarez type deals for us.

As the folks of the Arsenal Vision pod were saying it makes perfect sense for everyone.

They immediately double their wages for the final year of their contract and we put a reasonable release clause that means we at least recuperate some if not all the initial outlay we made on them. Plus their agents get a cut of the deal, both our one and the future transfer so they'll be happy with it that as well.

It's a win win for every party tbh.

[Power n Glory]

The deluded idiot is now saying that Alexis might sign a new deal with Arsenal.

Alexis would have to be completely fucking stupid to do that, which surely he isn't.

I hope Alexis leaves in January and leaves Wenger/Arsenal (same thing) high and dry and he signs no-one in winter transfer window.

Losing lots of games before and after that will hopefully get that idiot out next summer.

He should probably avoid talking about Sanchez and his contract if he wants to keep everyone focused. We're in a situation where we have to deal with speculation but no need for Wenger to generate more headlines than necessary. Next step is for the press to ask Sanchez if he's going to sign a new deal. How is he supposed to answer that honestly and not have fans on his back or call for him to be benched if he doesn't give the correct answer?

Wenger needs to stop the public pressure game, grow some balls and talk to his players face to face and not through the press.

[Mac76]

Purely on the football side of things, Wenger is currently the worst out of the top six managers and top seven if you include Koeman because I think he'd do a better job than Wenger has tbh.

why stop at the top 6-7?

i'd say probably any other manager in the PL and a few in the Championship could do a better job as manager - after all how much brilliance and experience does it take to say 'hey Bellerin, you're a right back - you go and play at right back'?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That season still annoys me, we were so consistent but we just ran out of gas in the end. We still had a chance to recover from the Birmingham disaster but losing at Chelsea and United finished us off.

Preach

[Niall_Quinn]

tbh I can easily see Alexis & Ozil signing Suarez type deals for us.

As the folks of the Arsenal Vision pod were saying it makes perfect sense for everyone.

They immediately double their wages for the final year of their contract and we put a reasonable release clause that means we at least recuperate some if not all the initial outlay we made on them. Plus their agents get a cut of the deal, both our one and the future transfer so they'll be happy with it that as well.

It's a win win for every party tbh.

Not really. If the future buying club doesn't have to pay a transfer fee they can pay higher wages and bonuses and over a longer period than the one year increase we could offer. It actually makes no sense at all for the player and the agent. They'd be doing the club a favour, which in Alexis' case would a favour in return for the transfer window fuck up? I don't think so.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The deluded idiot is now saying that Alexis might sign a new deal with Arsenal.

Alexis would have to be completely fucking stupid to do that, which surely he isn't.

I hope Alexis leaves in January and leaves Wenger/Arsenal (same thing) high and dry and he signs no-one in winter transfer window.

Losing lots of games before and after that will hopefully get that idiot out next summer.

Not really. If he takes a massive pay rise for a year with the guarantee to sell him next year if he wants to go.

Very much what Liverpool did with Suarez.

However I don't see Sanchez agreeing

[dostoy]

I would not do anything to jeopardize leaving Arsenal if I was him.

He can get a massive signing on fee and massive wages when he does go.

He does not deserve to have to play with, and be managed by, the idiots he is now.

[Özim]

Not really. If he takes a massive pay rise for a year with the guarantee to sell him next year if he wants to go.

Very much what Liverpool did with Suarez.

However I don't see Sanchez agreeing

Suarez had a few years to run on his deal though, so nothing lost for him as he wasn't going on a free.

For Sanchez though if he signs a contract we get a bigger fee and that will come directly out of his potential earning/signing on fee.

Makes no sense for the sake of a year, he earns enough already to get by.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Not really. If the future buying club doesn't have to pay a transfer fee they can pay higher wages and bonuses and over a longer period than the one year increase we could offer. It actually makes no sense at all for the player and the agent. They'd be doing the club a favour, which in Alexis' case would a favour in return for the transfer window fuck up? I don't think so.

Depends on whether the theoretical signing bonus would be higher than the additional wages he'd be guaranteed by signing again for us. And whether there are enough decent big clubs in for him which would allow him to demand a decent signing on bonus in the first place. It was widely reported that Bayern were put off by Alexis' ridiculous wage demands and even PSG blinked at them - not to mention now with Neymar they don't need him either now.

If it's just the Gypos in for him them then he's not going to get a substantial signing on bonus and it may make more financial sense for him to sign on for us, albeit without a extoroniate release clause so he can leave if he really wants to.

At any rate, I think Ozil would be easier to tie down in this manner as there are clearly less clubs interested him but all this is predicated on our negotiation team of Dick Law & his cronies being smart & innovative to suggest at thing when in reality we know they're a bunch of incompetents.

[dostoy]

It would be good for Arsenal if Ozil did leave, he is the biggest fairy of them all.

[Niall_Quinn]

Depends on whether the theoretical signing bonus would be higher than the additional wages he'd be guaranteed by signing again for us. And whether there are enough decent big clubs in for him which would allow him to demand a decent signing on bonus in the first place. It was widely reported that Bayern were put off by Alexis' ridiculous wage demands and even PSG blinked at them - not to mention now with Neymar they don't need him either now.

If it's just the Gypos in for him them then he's not going to get a substantial signing on bonus and it may make more financial sense for him to sign on for us, albeit without a extoroniate release clause so he can leave if he really wants to.

At any rate, I think Ozil would be easier to tie down in this manner as there are clearly less clubs interested him but all this is predicated on our negotiation team of Dick Law & his cronies being smart & innovative to suggest at thing when in reality we know they're a bunch of incompetents.

The only real bargaining chip we are left with is whether he starts or not, and even that's tenuous because look how shit we are at the moment. We can hardly do without him. But, if he's not playing well he's no loss. So the real win-win situation is for him to give 100%, no matter how bizarre or pointless the season turns out to be. That way he stays in the shop window and we aren't an even bigger pile of shit. Other than that, Alexis has no real need to engage with us. He left this summer and it was mutual considering Wenger lied as usual and tried to flog him at the last minute.

I suppose the gypos will be back in January, so there's that hurdle. And next summer's transfer window will be an absolute farce now PL clubs have to stop buying early but remain subject to bids from abroad. The old fool Wenger will lose key players but has even less time to replace them. It's another slo-mo shipwreck in progress.

[Marc Overmars]

Dick Law is leaving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/arsene-wenger-loses-one-closest-arsenal-allies-transfer-negotiator/

Bye.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dick Law is leaving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/arsene-wenger-loses-one-closest-arsenal-allies-transfer-negotiator/

Bye.

That was decided last year I think. But it took them a while to get the paperwork through.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Dick Law is leaving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/arsene-wenger-loses-one-closest-arsenal-allies-transfer-negotiator/

Bye.

He let his own contract run down after failing to agree an extension with himself last summer.

[Globalgunner]

He let his own contract run down after failing to agree an extension with himself last summer.

Mrs Law asked for a 20k signing on fee which Wenger refused to pay

[KSE Comedy Club]

He let his own contract run down after failing to agree an extension with himself last summer.

:haha::haha:

[Özim]

Dick Law is leaving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/arsene-wenger-loses-one-closest-arsenal-allies-transfer-negotiator/

Bye.

Done an awful job.

Thanks for coming, bon voyage :wave:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:haha::haha:

Tough negotiator.

After a while he stopped returning his own phone calls

[Power n Glory]

The only real bargaining chip we are left with is whether he starts or not, and even that's tenuous because look how shit we are at the moment. We can hardly do without him. But, if he's not playing well he's no loss. So the real win-win situation is for him to give 100%, no matter how bizarre or pointless the season turns out to be. That way he stays in the shop window and we aren't an even bigger pile of shit. Other than that, Alexis has no real need to engage with us. He left this summer and it was mutual considering Wenger lied as usual and tried to flog him at the last minute.

I suppose the gypos will be back in January, so there's that hurdle. And next summer's transfer window will be an absolute farce now PL clubs have to stop buying early but remain subject to bids from abroad. The old fool Wenger will lose key players but has even less time to replace them. It's another slo-mo shipwreck in progress.

Alexis putting himself at risk and getting a serious injury will jeopardise a summer move. Giving a 100% won't help him. He's already in the shop window and will attract bids from all the top clubs. A serious injury would put him at a disadvantage and I'm sure his agent is telling him the same thing. He's all good as long as he stays fit.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

The football world is fickle though so it is in his interest to be reminding people of the height of his talents to be at the forefront of the necessary clubs' minds. That way he is more likely to have his pick....unless of course he literally wants to be anywhere but here!

The other alternative is to have a gentleman's agreement with a club rep now that he will sign for them and keep it quiet. He could literally do that with Guardiola over tea on trust....

[Niall_Quinn]

The football world is fickle though so it is in his interest to be reminding people of the height of his talents to be at the forefront of the necessary clubs' minds. That way he is more likely to have his pick....unless of course he literally wants to be anywhere but here!

The other alternative is to have a gentleman's agreement with a club rep now that he will sign for them and keep it quiet. He could literally do that with Guardiola over tea on trust....

Sounds like that may have already happened. The January bid will be supposedly 20 million or they'll wait until the summer. Wouldn't it be crazy if we accepted that January offer? Passing up 60 million to keep him here, claiming our transfer budget had to include next summer's losses if he walks on a free, claiming we need him here for a title challenge. Then letting him go in January for a third of the fee. That would be so us.

[Power n Glory]

The football world is fickle though so it is in his interest to be reminding people of the height of his talents to be at the forefront of the necessary clubs' minds. That way he is more likely to have his pick....unless of course he literally wants to be anywhere but here!

The other alternative is to have a gentleman's agreement with a club rep now that he will sign for them and keep it quiet. He could literally do that with Guardiola over tea on trust....

Not that fickle. I highly doubt clubs will back off making a bid for someone like Alexis that will be available on a free transfer. He's free to speak to whoever he wants when he has less than 6 months on his contract. Memories aren't that short. Plus, it's a World Cup year. If Chile qualify, he has another chance to show his worth. We're at a disadvantage and just have to hope he gives his all for every game he plays.

[Marc Overmars]

He let his own contract run down after failing to agree an extension with himself last summer.

:haha:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Sounds like that may have already happened. The January bid will be supposedly 20 million or they'll wait until the summer. Wouldn't it be crazy if we accepted that January offer? Passing up 60 million to keep him here, claiming our transfer budget had to include next summer's losses if he walks on a free, claiming we need him here for a title challenge. Then letting him go in January for a third of the fee. That would be so us.
I actually thought you were OTT with what you suggested we should be offering for Lemar early in the summer.....then we go and offer 92 ,Illinois for him on the last day! If you think he's worth that just offer more than you did sooner FFS!

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Not that fickle. I highly doubt clubs will back off making a bid for someone like Alexis that will be available on a free transfer. He's free to speak to whoever he wants when he has less than 6 months on his contract. Memories aren't that short. Plus, it's a World Cup year. If Chile qualify, he has another chance to show his worth. We're at a disadvantage and just have to hope he gives his all for every game he plays.

I mean in his own interests not in the interests of the clubs chasing.....it would be better if he was playing out on of his world but I don't suppose that will be motivation enough after we have seemingly beaten the spirit out of him and exasperated him with the City move.

[Niall_Quinn]

I actually thought you were OTT with what you suggested we should be offering for Lemar....hen we go and offer 92 ,Illinois for him on the last day! If you think he's worth that just offer more than you did sooner FFS!

Senseless. Lack of planning. Lack of execution. Leading to blind panic. Typical transfer window for us really. Kid will go for at least 80 mill in the summer provided his season doesn't collapse. Which it won't because he's pure class. 50 mill, even 60, will look like a steal in the current market. Another one we can stick on the almost list.

[Power n Glory]

I mean in his own interests not in the interests of the clubs chasing.....it would be better if he was playing out on of his world but I don't suppose that will be motivation enough after we have seemingly beaten the spirit out of him and exasperated him with the City move.

But does he need to play out of skin to attract attention? I don't think he does. Ozil on the other hand? I dunno.

[Letters]

It does yes, but on the evidence so far they are improving and looking like an excellent team, they do need to sort out the defence.
You can say that again :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Ivan Gazidis is expected to take a more direct role in Arsenal’s transfer negotiations now that Dick Law, the club’s negotiator, is leaving – but it seems inevitable Arsenal will eventually appoint a Director of Football.

The Arsenal chief executive, who bore the brunt of criticism for what was viewed a chaotic and unsatisfactory transfer window, has moved his office to the London Colney training ground and is working there regularly for the first time since he joined the club in 2008, a further sign of the transition promised as the Arsene Wenger years draw to an end.

With Wenger’s time at the club likely to be in its final years the club appears to be moving to a model less dominated by the manager – though it may not be fully implemented until Wenger leaves.

How can you have a transition if nothing changes until Wenger leaves?

[Ralpheroo72]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/i-still-dont-know-what-he-is-good-at-thierry-henry-offers-withering-assessment-of-liverpools-new-signing-36115985.html

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger reports that contracts talks with Ozil have "slowed" but are still in progress. I'm beginning to think Ozil may go on a free at the end of the season.

Meanwhile Wenger reports Wilshere is a fighter and will never give up. Good news.

You can see what's going to happen, can't you?

[Bumble]

Wenger reports that contracts talks with Ozil have "slowed" but are still in progress. I'm beginning to think Ozil may go on a free at the end of the season.

Meanwhile Wenger reports Wilshere is a fighter and will never give up. Good news.

You can see what's going to happen, can't you?
both are left footed though. so like for like.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger reports that contracts talks with Ozil have "slowed" but are still in progress. I'm beginning to think Ozil may go on a free at the end of the season.

Meanwhile Wenger reports Wilshere is a fighter and will never give up. Good news.

You can see what's going to happen, can't you?

No idea how fans are booing Sanchez for not signing a new deal but nothing for Ozil. Ridiculous.

Just wait when he ends up at Man Utd.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/4460851/manchester-united-transfer-news-mesut-ozil-jose-mourinho-arsenal-contract/

[Letters]

No idea how fans are booing Sanchez for not signing a new deal but nothing for Ozil. Ridiculous.
Why do you hate Ozil so much?! :lol:

And it's obvious why. Sanchez is the one who was agitating more vocally to leave, or that's how the media presented it.

[Power n Glory]

Why do you hate Ozil so much?! :lol:

And it's obvious why. Sanchez is the one who was agitating more vocally to leave, or that's how the media presented it.

You're an idiot.

[Letters]

Excellent debating :lol:
Is it national stupid day or something? Got some bird on FB having a go at me without addressing in any way anything I said about something.
Internet Debates :rose:

[Power n Glory]

Excellent debating :lol:
Is it national stupid day or something? Got some bird on FB having a go at me without addressing in any way anything I said about something.
Internet Debates :rose:

She must think you're an idiot too. ;)

[Letters]

I think she does :(
Probably right.

:getcoat:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Excellent debating :lol:
Is it national stupid day or something? Got some bird on FB having a go at me without addressing in any way anything I said about something.
Internet Debates :rose:

That's your fault. You debated a feminist on "Rape culture" and expected a rational response

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Why do you hate Ozil so much?! :lol:

And it's obvious why. Sanchez is the one who was agitating more vocally to leave, or that's how the media presented it.

*condescending dick mode on*

Oh sweet deluded Letters. :lol::lol:

You're one of these poor fools who's been suckered in by Ozil's PR machine. Look, if he really wanted to stay he would have signed by now .... he doesn't and instead is just giving out statements in the media/instagram/twitter in order to protect his image and not be the focus of booing/negativity and sadly it seems to have worked among our more primitive elements of our fanbase.

German Media are already reporting he's decided to leave:

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/blog/transfer-talk/79/post/3202774/mesut-ozil-set-to-leave-arsenal-atletico-madrid-up-diego-costa-bid?ex_cid=UKSocial_GC_FB


And I said in the other thread, unlike Alexis who's always consistently delivered his WC ability for us on the pitch, apart from a brief 4 month spell at the start of the season two years ago, he's only performed in odd patches here & there. He really isn't deserving or the support & money he wants & is demanding respectively.

If Wenger wasn't such a cuck, he'd force Ozil to play with the reserves this year until he signed a new contract which in a WC year and with German stocked with talented midfielders, would kill him. Could do the same with Alexis as well but Chile would play him regardless as he's that good & important to them.

But no, as we all know he's "too nice" and "non-confrontational" about these things and gives the players far more loyalty and love than they reciprocate back to him.

tl;dr - Fuck Ozil.

*condescending dick mode off*

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil's definitely leaving at the end of his contract. That's what he's been quietly and patiently waiting for. He hasn't signed a contract because he has no intention of signing one and this idea there are no takers is laughable. Ozil on a free in a fee months? Form an orderly queue and have a chequebook ready.

But none of that is the point.

Is Wenger setting up Wilshere to be Ozil's replacement? I have to admit, if they can pull a stunt like that I'll just applaud. Sometimes you just have to stand back and admire genius. It will be a WUMjob that can never be topped.

Alexis will be going too, of course. Out the door like Usain Bolt off the blocks. And Ramsey will be refusing to sign a contract by that stage too.

How long is Lacazette's contract? He'll be the next major guy to lose his pen.

[Letters]

You're one of these poor fools who's been suckered in by Ozil's PR machine.
Well, I'm not because I wasn't one of the "poor fools" booing Sanchez or cheering Ozil. PnG asked why the crowd reacted differently, it's obvious why and all you've done is elaborate on what I said in brief.

[Penguin]

Did anyone here actually think Ozil was going to sign a new deal with us? Why would he? It's a sinking ship and he's in the front of the queue to jump off.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Half the team don't want to be there......we're just most annoyed about Sanchez because he is the best of them and we don't actually want him to leave.