When will Arteta be sacked by

[Marc Overmars]

No identity. The football is so basic that it’s always prone to fall apart at any given point. We don’t appear to have any confidence or guile to build attacks with any authority. The games we do win are often snoozefests where we do the bare minimum to get over the line, so for me this isn't strictly about results. Absolutely hate the football Arteta has brought to the club.

[Letters]

Problem is, who is out there with any calibre? Next appointment is critical, we cant experiment, or hire an interim fix.

Time for Poch to come home :cool:

[Marc Overmars]

A few games ago we were on a good run and there were a few tentative good signs. The Leicester result was good.
And it was good that after the Anfield game we bounced back and won the next one.
Old Trafford was annoying but actually I thought the performance was OK. But tonight...well, I didn't see it. But it's just textbook Arsenal.
Need a result. Game against a struggling side. So...you know the rest.
Wankers.

We beat a team that hadn’t won all season. That’s not bouncing back.
Genuinely bouncing back would have been to do something at Old Trafford and tonight.

[Chippy]

Time for Poch to come home :cool:

Welcome to the Arteta Out club, Letters! ......Finally.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I really wanted Arteta to be a success - one of those innovative appointments that were insightful like the Wenger appointment was for the first half of his tenure.

Maybe Arteta will do it in reverse and his last ten years will bring joy and glory.

But I don’t see it. We’ve seen enough and he needs to go.

[Letters]

Welcome to the Arteta Out club, Letters! ......Finally.

I’ve hopped on and off this bandwagon a few times.
When we were on “the run” I was fairly content with things. We were in the top 6, the gap to 4th wasn’t that big. It seemed like some tentative signs of progress. But the last few games have shown the old frailties are still there.
I like Arteta and I hope he does well as a manager, but he’s not up to it right now.
Always felt like a bit of a punt.

[Chippy]

I’ve hopped on and off this bandwagon a few times.
When we were on “the run” I was fairly content with things. We were in the top 6, the gap to 4th wasn’t that big. It seemed like some tentative signs of progress. But the last few games have shown the old frailties are still there.
I like Arteta and I hope he does well as a manager, but he’s not up to it right now.
Always felt like a bit of a punt.

Did you mean "punt"?

[Bumble]

Time for Poch to come home :cool:

Vieira why not.

[Letters]

Did you mean "punt"?

:lol:

I do like Arteta, he’s just not up to it.

[Chippy]

Vieira why not.

No thanks. One Rookie is enough. We need experience.

[Letters]

We beat a team that hadn’t won all season. That’s not bouncing back.
Genuinely bouncing back would have been to do something at Old Trafford and tonight.

Whatever, we did at least beat Newcastle - we didn't slip on the banana skin like we usually do.
Everton hadn't won since mid-September, they were there for the taking. And this time we did fall flat on our stupid arses again.

[selassie]

We beat a team that hadn’t won all season. That’s not bouncing back.
Genuinely bouncing back would have been to do something at Old Trafford and tonight.

This. Our team is very fragile, the system is built on it needing to be executed to perfection for it to be successful. Any small glitch or moments of sustained pressure and this team folds like a pack of cards. The management isn’t good enough, the players by and large aren’t good enough. We are handicapped by that alone.

[selassie]

A few games ago we were on a good run and there were a few tentative good signs. The Leicester result was good.
And it was good that after the Anfield game we bounced back and won the next one.
Old Trafford was annoying but actually I thought the performance was OK. But tonight...well, I didn't see it. But it's just textbook Arsenal.
Need a result. Game against a struggling side. So...you know the rest.
Wankers.

Letters we got lucky in that run leading up to the thrashing at Anfield. We got totally outplayed at home to Palace, we had Ramsdale to thank for the Leicester victory, Brighton totally dominated us, the unbeaten run wasn’t born out of confident performances, and given the opposition we faced we should have been expected to beat pretty much everyone we faced.

I’m just telling it as it is, we still have major issues in the team and management of it.

[Mac76]

Time for Poch to come home :cool:

Spuds reject?

no thanks

[Mac76]

Letters we got lucky in that run leading up to the thrashing at Anfield. We got totally outplayed at home to Palace, we had Ramsdale to thank for the Leicester victory, Brighton totally dominated us, the unbeaten run wasn’t born out of confident performances, and given the opposition we faced we should have been expected to beat pretty much everyone we faced.

I’m just telling it as it is, we still have major issues in the team and management of it.

absolutely, that run was never very convincing, the best we've been is in the first half against spuds and even then in the second half we did our best to let them back into the game.

[Letters]

Spuds reject?

no thanks

Who would you rather have, Poch or Arteta? It's not even close.
Poch failed to land a trophy at Spurs and that was a blot on his CV, but he flirted with a title challenge a couple of times and got them to a CL Final. Since when had Spurs been anywhere near that before?
He's a million times better than Arteta.

[Marc Overmars]

This. Our team is very fragile, the system is built on it needing to be executed to perfection for it to be successful. Any small glitch or moments of sustained pressure and this team folds like a pack of cards. The management isn’t good enough, the players by and large aren’t good enough. We are handicapped by that alone.

I see a team incapable of adjusting its gameplan on the fly, a team that doesn’t react to anything that happens in a match. It’s like they’re robots who’ve been programmed to play in one specific way. Boring, unimaginative and restrictive football. Doesn’t matter if we’re winning or losing a match, nothing in our psyche seems to change and that’s worrying.

[Mac76]

Who would you rather have, Poch or Arteta? It's not even close.
Poch failed to land a trophy at Spurs and that was a blot on his CV, but he flirted with a title challenge a couple of times and got them to a CL Final. Since when had Spurs been anywhere near that before?
He's a million times better than Arteta.

that's a false choice

Ponce is a grumpy overrated **** with a face like a punchbag

not that any of that matters because he's a SPUDS REJECT - hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo............... :rolleyes:

[Letters]

Ponce is a grumpy overrated **** with a face like a punchbag
He got Spurs to a CL Final.
Spurs!


not that any of that matters because he's a SPUDS REJECT
Oh who gives a shit about that? What are you, 14? He's a good manager and would be a massive step up from Arteta.

[dazthegooner]

So Sol Campbell was a Spud reject? and unlike Spurs he SCORED in a champions league final :)

[Mac76]

So Sol Campbell was a Spud reject? and unlike Spurs he SCORED in a champions league final :)

The difference is, they didn't get rid of Campbell, he chose to leave for a club that could win things ;)

Ponce was sacked = spuds reject = no thanks

[dazthegooner]

The difference is, they didn't get rid of Campbell, he chose to leave for a club that could win things ;)

Ponce was sacked = spuds reject = no thanks

Yeah and he's an Argie would rather they dig up Maradona :blink:

[Bumble]

this thread has been quiet for a while. reckon Arteta will at least see out the season now.

[dazthegooner]

Yup and if Neville is correct if we finish 4th and he would have taken us as far as he could and leave for a new club where a job isn't available :sarcy:

[Mac76]

Yup and if Neville is correct if we finish 4th and he would have taken us as far as he could and leave for a new club where a job isn't available :sarcy:

Yeah that was such a BS remark

Fucking hope we trash Palace and leave Man Ure in the dust and we could take a real grip on top 4 if Agent Willock does the job today at spuds

[Master Splinter]

Owen Coyle, Nuno or Brentan are attainable so we should get rid ASAP.

Also, he was mean to Ozil.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger repented. But 4th place is still the big prize at Arsenal for the likes of Kroenke and Arteta. I've laughed as I watched the back him go to sack him and then back to back him. All for a shit club that cares fuck all about the fans and is mediocre in every way. As planned. Second best has been baked into this club. It's viewed as the ultimate achievement to be secondfourth best.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

[selassie]

Yeah that was such a BS remark

Fucking hope we trash Palace and leave Man Ure in the dust and we could take a real grip on top 4 if Agent Willock does the job today at spuds

The NLD will most likely decide 4th place. That's unless Chelsea collapse, I don't think they will, they have a bit too much quality to do that and a fairly routine run in.

Despite us being in the driving seat so to speak we are going to need to do it the hard way, we have a difficult run in, no two ways about it.

[Chippy]

The NLD will most likely decide 4th place. That's unless Chelsea collapse, I don't think they will, they have a bit too much quality to do that and a fairly routine run in.

Despite us being in the driving seat so to speak we are going to need to do it the hard way, we have a difficult run in, no two ways about it.

Spurs are in good form now. They won't drop many points at all. Maybe a draw or two. United are poor so yes, it is between us and the Spuds. Baring in mind the run in fixtures, they are favourites imho.

[Letters]

But 4th place is still the big prize at Arsenal for the likes of Kroenke and Arteta.

I’m not sure that’s fair - certainly with Arteta.
Kroenke is a businessman, he only cares about the bottom line. But Arteta is an ex player. He’s lifted trophies as player and manager at Arsenal so he knows how that feels. I’m sure he wants that again. Whether we like it or not (not), top 4 is a “thing”. And from where we have been it’s a stepping stone to bigger things, hopefully. It gets us the money and lure to attract a higher caliber of players which could help us push on. We were never going to bridge the gap between us and Liverpool/City in one or two seasons. The question for me is can Arteta get us there. He seems to be taking us in that direction. I’m not convinced he can, but I think he’s earning the right to try.

[Letters]

Spurs are in good form now. They won't drop many points at all.

Really? They are building up a head of steam but when was the last time they won a good number of games in a row. They’ll drop points. We will top of course. The NLD will be key, it’s more likely to be a must not lose than a must win.

Impossible to call right now. I wouldn’t make Spurs favourites right now but it’s almost certainly between us and them :sick:

[WMUG]

Really? They are building up a head of steam but when was the last time they won a good number of games in a row. They’ll drop points. We will top of course. The NLD will be key, it’s more likely to be a must not lose than a must win.

Impossible to call right now. I wouldn’t make Spurs favourites right now but it’s almost certainly between us and them :sick:

66 vs 33 in our favour according to 538 which of us gets CL.

:sick:

[I am invisible]

Wrong mindset. Forget looking nervously over our shoulders at spurs - if this team is what we think it is, then there should be no thought other than looking above us and going all out to catch Chelsea.

[Marc Overmars]

Wrong mindset. Forget looking nervously over our shoulders at spurs - if this team is what we think it is, then there should be no thought other than looking above us and going all out to catch Chelsea.

Absolutely. Win tonight and we’re 2 points behind them.

The margins are very fine and a drop off in form now could be terminal but it’s all to play for. Got to aim high.

[Letters]

You're both right, but to me finishing 5th below Spurs feels more credible than finishing 3rd above Chelsea.
Let's see what happens tonight though, we have been passing these tests of late but this is a big one.
Palace are in great form so it's going to be a tough one.

[I am invisible]

Absolutely. Win tonight and we’re 2 points behind them.

The margins are very fine and a drop off in form now could be terminal but it’s all to play for. Got to aim high.
Yeah, we can't afford any jitters, and those usually creep in when you start worrying about what's coming up behind you - better to think of yourselves as the hunters and find something ahead to chase down.

[selassie]

Wrong mindset. Forget looking nervously over our shoulders at spurs - if this team is what we think it is, then there should be no thought other than looking above us and going all out to catch Chelsea.

Absolutely, we win tonight and beat Chelsea in a few weeks time (which is more than possible) then we will go above them. It's all to play for and we are in a battle to finish 3rd as much as we are to finish 4th.

I have confidence in this team given what I have seen this season, but things are going to get pretty stressful these next few weeks as we have some really tricky games coming up. If we can navigate our way through tonight with a win and beat Brighton and Southampton the next few weeks then we are going to be in a really strong position irrespective of what our rivals do.

[Mac76]

i'm afraid i think we'll lose to spuds, chelsea and Moan U, we still don't really cut it against those teams

that will wipe out our games in hand and i reckon 5th is the best we can hope for, though i think Moan U will rally and be real competition

the problem we have is our squad's so thin - sooner or later we'll lose someone important - probably Saka - and it will really affect us

The only chance we have is for Arteta to tell Xhaka to break K*** or S**'s legs

he'll be banned for three games but that's fine by me - one of those two needs to be taken out

[Marc Overmars]

NLD confirmed for Thursday 12th May.

My birthday. :sick:

[Mac76]

NLD confirmed for Thursday 12th May.

My birthday. :sick:

argh man, that's bad :(

[selassie]

Absolutely, we win tonight and beat Chelsea in a few weeks time (which is more than possible) then we will go above them. It's all to play for and we are in a battle to finish 3rd as much as we are to finish 4th.

I have confidence in this team given what I have seen this season, but things are going to get pretty stressful these next few weeks as we have some really tricky games coming up. If we can navigate our way through tonight with a win and beat Brighton and Southampton the next few weeks then we are going to be in a really strong position irrespective of what our rivals do.

Or maybe not :faint:

[Letters]

You're both right, but to me finishing 5th below Spurs feels more credible than finishing 3rd above Chelsea.
Let's see what happens tonight though, we have been passing these tests of late but this is a big one.
Palace are in great form so it's going to be a tough one.

:gp:

[Chippy]

argh man, that's bad :(
Doesn't matter now. If Palace can ass fu## us 3-0 we ain't getting 4th. Oh well, back to reality.

[dazthegooner]

Thet also beat the spuds by the same score and have held City twice something we haven't done in a while.

[Letters]

Thet also beat the spuds by the same score and have held City twice something we haven't done in a while.

:gp:

Palace are in great form, I’m disappointed we got humped last night but it doesn’t definitively tell us we won’t get 4th. We need to dust ourselves off and win the next couple. If Spurs slip - and they will at some point - then things will feel different

[Globalgunner]

Thet also beat the spuds by the same score and have held City twice something we haven't done in a while.

The difference is the manager they have and the one we do. Reverse those positions and Palace would be facing relegation.

[Mac76]

please is there any chance we could rename this thread 'By when will Arteta be sacked?'

that bad grammar is killing me...

[KSE Comedy Club]

Last night's game highlighted all the limitations of Arteta and this team.

We only set up one way, no matter the opponent.
The attack is cut and paste too, play out to the wings (mostly right wing, Saka) and cross into the box to the target man that doesn't exist.

ESR with his pass to the keeper when in a goal scoring opportunity showed our lack of shooting.

Lacazette is one of the best DM's in the prem, currently playing in the striker role and failing miserably.

Then there is Granit Backpass...... plays every game for 90+ mins (unless red carded)
Our lack of squad depth and options is appalling.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the idea of pushing on for 4th with what we have and spending in the summer with CL potentially in mind, but weakening the team and not replacing in Jan was a mistake that may cost us 4th anyway.

Glad that Martinelli got on - but was then mostly ignored. A potentially top striker is now utilised as just a winger to incorporate a central striker that cant shoot or score goals.

We can still achieve 4th if the team come out firing on all cylinders every game now but it's a big ask.

Notable highlight was Arteta not making the usual identikit like for like subs and actaully trying to force a more attacking game - just a shame there is no real threat in attack.

Optimism balloon well and truly burst last night.

[Letters]

This time last year we were:

P29 W12 D6 L11 F40 A32 Pts42

At this stage. Now we are:

P29 W17 D3 L9 F44 A34 Pts54

I'd suggest that's a pretty clear improvement so far. We only need 7 more points to get the same points as we finished on last year, it seems pretty clear there's going to be improvement this year.
It might not be enough for top 4 but overall I'm seeing positive signs in the team. Last night was a bad day at the office, we have reacted well after other setbacks, if we do again then I don't think we'll be far away from top 4 this year.
I don't think anyone thinks we're the finished product but for all my "Arteta out" wobbles this season I think he's taking us in the right direction and has earned the right to try and continue that.

[IBK]

Last night's game highlighted all the limitations of Arteta and this team.

We only set up one way, no matter the opponent.
The attack is cut and paste too, play out to the wings (mostly right wing, Saka) and cross into the box to the target man that doesn't exist.

ESR with his pass to the keeper when in a goal scoring opportunity showed our lack of shooting.

Lacazette is one of the best DM's in the prem, currently playing in the striker role and failing miserably.

Then there is Granit Backpass...... plays every game for 90+ mins (unless red carded)
Our lack of squad depth and options is appalling.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the idea of pushing on for 4th with what we have and spending in the summer with CL potentially in mind, but weakening the team and not replacing in Jan was a mistake that may cost us 4th anyway.

Glad that Martinelli got on - but was then mostly ignored. A potentially top striker is now utilised as just a winger to incorporate a central striker that cant shoot or score goals.

We can still achieve 4th if the team come out firing on all cylinders every game now but it's a big ask.

Notable highlight was Arteta not making the usual identikit like for like subs and actaully trying to force a more attacking game - just a shame there is no real threat in attack.

Optimism balloon well and truly burst last night.

The optimism ballon may have deflated, but I think your criticism of Arteta is OTT. Like Letters says he has quite obviously made progress this season, and had we won last night the plaudits for our manager would be continuing. Yes not signing a striker in January was a gamble but W11 D1 L3 since Aubameyang's last game is hardly evidence that this has not paid off.

What is also easy to ignore is the other ways that the manager has almost revolutionised our team and the general atmosphere around it. He has built a togetherness in the team and connection with the fans that could easily have been harmed by signing a mercenary striker in January. Whether we finish 4th or 8th this season, for the team's longer term health signing the right player(s) is arguably more important than signing someone to try a top 4 push that I do not believe was the objective at the start of the season.

Let's give the manager the benefit of the doubt after a rare disappointment since this young team bedded in.

[Marc Overmars]

There’s been progress no doubt. Arteta has changed the culture and given the foundation for the team to win games more often than not. The squad has been stripped bare for a reason and I feel like we’re in the final stage of this project now. We’ve barely signed anyone up front for years and that’s the one area left for Arteta to put his stamp on the team. He’s clearly been building from back to front.

The only issue really is that will we find some quality forwards without CL? So it might be a tough pill to swallow if we miss out now.

Carragher said the other day he thinks Arsenal are waiting for their Alisson and Van Dijk signings, players that ultimately took Liverpool to another level. I thought that was a good way to describe where we are potentially at now.

[IBK]

There’s been progress no doubt. Arteta has changed the culture and given the foundation for the team to win games more often than not. The squad has been stripped bare for a reason and I feel like we’re in the final stage of this project now. We’ve barely signed anyone up front for years and that’s the one area left for Arteta to put his stamp on the team. He’s clearly been building from back to front.

The only issue really is that will we find some quality forwards without CL? So it might be a tough pill to swallow if we miss out now.

Carragher said the other day he thinks Arsenal are waiting for their Alisson and Van Dijk signings, players that ultimately took Liverpool to another level. I thought that was a good way to describe where we are potentially at now.

We will find quality forwards - just need to be even cannier than we were last Summer...

[Letters]

What is also easy to ignore is the other ways that the manager has almost revolutionised our team and the general atmosphere around it. He has built a togetherness in the team and connection with the fans that could easily have been harmed by signing a mercenary striker in January.
Right :good:

This is a key thing and shouldn't be underestimated. Right now I like this team again. I feel they're fighting for each other, and the fans.
So sure, last night was a bad day at the office but it's easier to accept those when generally it feels like the team have spirit and will fight for results.
The important thing is we react now. My gut feeling is we'll fall short when it comes to top 4, but there's been clear improvement since last year and I wouldn't be too hard on a young squad which doesn't have enough depth. We have to push on in the summer but I agree with MO that it'll be difficult to get a striker of the of the calibre we need. Partly because they don't grow on trees, partly because it's so obvious that's what we need the prices for us will he sky high.

[selassie]

As others have stated we have made quite significant improvements since last season in both performance and results. Last night was a bit of a shock to be honest, not the defeat per say but the manner in which we were comprehensively outplayed and outfought. All teams have blips so if we can excuse last night as a bad day at the office then we will be right in the mix for CL until the end of the season.

Do I think we will finish top 4? Not so sure now given the mounting injuries and tough schedule. What is important more than anything is we put up a fight to finish in the top 4, we can only do what we do.

This team has shown resilience this season after a defeat so lets hope we put another little run together.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The optimism ballon may have deflated, but I think your criticism of Arteta is OTT. Like Letters says he has quite obviously made progress this season, and had we won last night the plaudits for our manager would be continuing. Yes not signing a striker in January was a gamble but W11 D1 L3 since Aubameyang's last game is hardly evidence that this has not paid off.

What is also easy to ignore is the other ways that the manager has almost revolutionised our team and the general atmosphere around it. He has built a togetherness in the team and connection with the fans that could easily have been harmed by signing a mercenary striker in January. Whether we finish 4th or 8th this season, for the team's longer term health signing the right player(s) is arguably more important than signing someone to try a top 4 push that I do not believe was the objective at the start of the season.

Let's give the manager the benefit of the doubt after a rare disappointment since this young team bedded in.

I'm not an 'Arteta out' by any means, but that does not put his flaws beyond reasonable criticism.

We have made some great progress yes, but there are still problem areas which need addressing and be it naivety or a lack of experience, from Arteta as a manager.

No one mentioned signing a 'mercenary striker' though?

We had a clear long term target, but seemingly no back up option.
A top four finish has been a target for a few seasons now - it was for Emery and it was for Arteta, it's just that the goal posts have once again been shifted.

We have also had some good fortune in that our goals recently have mainly come from the midfielders or defenders, and we have put in some pretty decent defensive displays to hold out on 1-0 wins instead of 2 or goal leads.
That is results you would expect with having a decent striker in the team.

[KSE Comedy Club]

This time last year we were:

P29 W12 D6 L11 F40 A32 Pts42

At this stage. Now we are:

P29 W17 D3 L9 F44 A34 Pts54

I'd suggest that's a pretty clear improvement so far. We only need 7 more points to get the same points as we finished on last year, it seems pretty clear there's going to be improvement this year.
It might not be enough for top 4 but overall I'm seeing positive signs in the team. Last night was a bad day at the office, we have reacted well after other setbacks, if we do again then I don't think we'll be far away from top 4 this year.
I don't think anyone thinks we're the finished product but for all my "Arteta out" wobbles this season I think he's taking us in the right direction and has earned the right to try and continue that.

Yes, it's amazing what £200m can buy you :)

The progress has been great but we are years in to 'the project' now and games like last night do highlight our inefficiencies.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Right :good:

This is a key thing and shouldn't be underestimated. Right now I like this team again. I feel they're fighting for each other, and the fans.
So sure, last night was a bad day at the office but it's easier to accept those when generally it feels like the team have spirit and will fight for results.
The important thing is we react now. My gut feeling is we'll fall short when it comes to top 4, but there's been clear improvement since last year and I wouldn't be too hard on a young squad which doesn't have enough depth. We have to push on in the summer but I agree with MO that it'll be difficult to get a striker of the of the calibre we need. Partly because they don't grow on trees, partly because it's so obvious that's what we need the prices for us will he sky high.

And there in lies the problem.

We cannot push on properly if we don't finish in the CL spaces, and we won't finish in the CL spaces if we don't push on and buy properly.

[Letters]

We cannot push on properly if we don't finish in the CL spaces
I don't think that follows. If a player buys into the vision of a team and wants to move to London and we pay the big bucks then I think we can attract top players.

[IBK]

I'm not an 'Arteta out' by any means, but that does not put his flaws beyond reasonable criticism.

We have made some great progress yes, but there are still problem areas which need addressing and be it naivety or a lack of experience, from Arteta as a manager.

No one mentioned signing a 'mercenary striker' though?

We had a clear long term target, but seemingly no back up option.
A top four finish has been a target for a few seasons now - it was for Emery and it was for Arteta, it's just that the goal posts have once again been shifted.

We have also had some good fortune in that our goals recently have mainly come from the midfielders or defenders, and we have put in some pretty decent defensive displays to hold out on 1-0 wins instead of 2 or goal leads.
That is results you would expect with having a decent striker in the team.

Definitely not saying he's above criticism, but I do think that your original critique of Arteta was a little unfair. Re last night - yes we can say that the players seemed totally undercooked, but you can't lay all of that on the manager - the players need to shoulder some blame. I wonder whether the 'telepathy' that our forwards can show requires a run of games, and the rustiness after the internantional break seemed palpable. Also, I think we missed Tierney for his application as well as his defending. It can't be a coincidence that he is regarded as the front runner for the captaincy. With Partey White and Gabriel having absoute shockers in terms of being switched on too that seemed to set the tone.

The manager did try to switch up in attack tactically in the second half, and we had a hatful more chances than we did in the Villa game. But basically mistakes and lack of focus killed us.

As for failure to invest in a striker in January, firstly I am not sure that would have made a difference last nigtht anyway with the whole team having 'one of those games' - just like Chelsea did 2 days beforehand. 'Mercenary striker' was my term - and intended to describe any striker bought simply to fill a gap rather than being a planned purchase. Clearly there were no target players available which would have meant taking a punt on a stop gap - with all the potential damage that this could have caused. Breaking the bank to prise a player away from another team would have been a different type of gamble with no guarantee of a CL place either but put the progress made with Arteta's developing team in jeaopardy.

Just saying that some things we are not happy with need to be placed in context, is all.

[Globalgunner]

Progress? What progress. Are we here believing the current top 3 wont get any better next year, that they will stagnate and wait for Arteta to get his shit together. Is the Arsenal project about getting Arteta to improve or Arsenal to improve?. Man United will get miles better with a competent manager. If the Spuds finish above us then they will get the pick of attacking players in the summer ahead of us unless Kane and Son drop off a cliff post 30. We delude ourselves if we think world class players are dying to play for Arteta. Dream on

This time next year we will have been in Arteta`s 4th season in charge and im sure we will still be talking about the project. Sometimes I wonder if we all believe we have an infinite amount of time to reach the pinnacle of football in our lifetimes. 26 years since " the greatest" Wenger took over and led us to the cusp of success but not its summit. 16 years since we left Highbury. For what exactly? Are we still a work in progress?. So even if we by some miracle edge our way into 4th (unlikely. I cant see us beating Spuds or United in later games). Are we seriously going to contend to win the CL with Arteta in charge, barging our way past the likes of Bayern, PSG and Madrid. Will Arteta suddenly come of age next season?. The guy cant even pilot his way past Nottingham Forest in an FA cup. Are we fans now only worried about the CL for its cash contributions. Does Kroenke even care about that?

The club has become the Arteta weaning academy, soon to lose 2 of the best prospects in football in Guendouzi and Saliba, just to salve our baby managers fragile ego. It would be nice to win the league again and maybe the CL in this lifetime, not my next.

Supporting this club is like having a slow acting poison lacing your daily cup of tea. Faint but inexorable demise.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I don't think that follows. If a player buys into the vision of a team and wants to move to London and we pay the big bucks then I think we can attract top players.

I do agree, but only to a certain extent.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Definitely not saying he's above criticism, but I do think that your original critique of Arteta was a little unfair. Re last night - yes we can say that the players seemed totally undercooked, but you can't lay all of that on the manager - the players need to shoulder some blame. I wonder whether the 'telepathy' that our forwards can show requires a run of games, and the rustiness after the internantional break seemed palpable. Also, I think we missed Tierney for his application as well as his defending. It can't be a coincidence that he is regarded as the front runner for the captaincy. With Partey White and Gabriel having absoute shockers in terms of being switched on too that seemed to set the tone.

The manager did try to switch up in attack tactically in the second half, and we had a hatful more chances than we did in the Villa game. But basically mistakes and lack of focus killed us.

As for failure to invest in a striker in January, firstly I am not sure that would have made a difference last nigtht anyway with the whole team having 'one of those games' - just like Chelsea did 2 days beforehand. 'Mercenary striker' was my term - and intended to describe any striker bought simply to fill a gap rather than being a planned purchase. Clearly there were no target players available which would have meant taking a punt on a stop gap - with all the potential damage that this could have caused. Breaking the bank to prise a player away from another team would have been a different type of gamble with no guarantee of a CL place either but put the progress made with Arteta's developing team in jeaopardy.

Just saying that some things we are not happy with need to be placed in context, is all.

Absolutely agreed, but I did say it was the teams inefficiencies as well ;)

It was a collective criticism, rather than an attack on Arteta.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Progress? What progress. Are we here believing the current top 3 wont get any better next year, that they will stagnate and wait for Arteta to get his shit together. Is the Arsenal project about getting Arteta to improve or Arsenal to improve?. Man United will get miles better with a competent manager. If the Spuds finish above us then they will get the pick of attacking players in the summer ahead of us unless Kane and Son drop off a cliff post 30. We delude ourselves if we think world class players are dying to play for Arteta. Dream on

This time next year we will have been in Arteta`s 4th season in charge and im sure we will still be talking about the project. Sometimes I wonder if we all believe we have an infinite amount of time to reach the pinnacle of football in our lifetimes. 26 years since " the greatest" Wenger took over and led us to the cusp of success but not its summit. 16 years since we left Highbury. For what exactly? Are we still a work in progress?. So even if we by some miracle edge our way into 4th (unlikely. I cant see us beating Spuds or United in later games). Are we seriously going to contend to win the CL with Arteta in charge, barging our way past the likes of Bayern, PSG and Madrid. Will Arteta suddenly come of age next season?. The guy cant even pilot his way past Nottingham Forest in an FA cup. Are we fans now only worried about the CL for its cash contributions. Does Kroenke even care about that?

The club has become the Arteta weaning academy, soon to lose 2 of the best prospects in football in Guendouzi and Saliba, just to salve our baby managers fragile ego. It would be nice to win the league again and maybe the CL in this lifetime, not my next.

Supporting this club is like having a slow acting poison lacing your daily cup of tea. Faint but inexorable demise.

We have made progress in that we are a far better and more cohesive team than we were when Arteta took over.
Defensively we have been more astute and we have looked sharp in plenty of games, which we have missed for a long time.

But other than that, most of what you say is quite true and quite sad to think about tbh :(

[Letters]

Progress? What progress.


This time last year we were:

P29 W12 D6 L11 F40 A32 Pts42

At this stage. Now we are:

P29 W17 D3 L9 F44 A34 Pts54


Are we here believing the current top 3 wont get any better next year, that they will stagnate and wait for Arteta to get his shit together.
Do you think all the top teams improve steadily year on year? That isn't how anything works. We have clearly improved since last year.
Whether we continue to will remain to be seen but Arteta has earned the right to try.


Are we seriously going to contend to win the CL with Arteta in charge, barging our way past the likes of Bayern, PSG and Madrid.

I don't think we are ready for the CL yet to be honest, but I think Arteta is taking us in the right direction and has thus earned the right to try and continue that.


Supporting this club is like having a slow acting poison lacing your daily cup of tea. Faint but inexorable demise.

Holy shit, dude. You understand that fans of most clubs don't get to see half the success we've seen? It's only 2 years since our last FA Cup. I've seen us win more trophies in my time than fans of many clubs have or will ever see.
The title has eluded us for a long time but we have no divine right to win it, and in an era where clubs are buying up titles left, right and centre it's not as easy as it used to be.
Right now I'm just looking for progress. And I'm seeing it. I don't think we will be sweeping all before us any time soon and I'm not sure Arteta is the right person to get us right to the top. But I do see progress and he's earning the right to continue that, for now.

[Bumble]

i do think we have progressed in the last year obviously need to see how the rest of the season pans out. but i think you can see a plan in the team. a plan with the players that remain. emphasis around younger developing players. getting rid of the old guard first to allow wages space to make a few signings. 1st team needs padding couple of forwards, another Centre mid and a defender who could play full back.

but we could actually pick our best side and without european football have been able to play more or less the same team most weeks. the worry is that we miss CL football and get stuck in Europa league. more games make things harder. Newcastle will invest now they are likely to stay in the division. So there target is Europa next season.

So miss CL this year and think no chance next season.

[Mac76]

Do you think all the top teams improve steadily year on year? That isn't how anything works. We have clearly improved since last year.
Whether we continue to will remain to be seen but Arteta has earned the right to try.



I don't think we are ready for the CL yet to be honest, but I think Arteta is taking us in the right direction and has thus earned the right to try and continue that.



Holy shit, dude. You understand that fans of most clubs don't get to see half the success we've seen? It's only 2 years since our last FA Cup. I've seen us win more trophies in my time than fans of many clubs have or will ever see.
The title has eluded us for a long time but we have no divine right to win it, and in an era where clubs are buying up titles left, right and centre it's not as easy as it used to be.
Right now I'm just looking for progress. And I'm seeing it. I don't think we will be sweeping all before us any time soon and I'm not sure Arteta is the right person to get us right to the top. But I do see progress and he's earning the right to continue that, for now.

:gp:

[Globalgunner]

This is the same guy that used to cheerlead for Wenger well into his decline, till he hit his perigee. I dont take his opinions seriously

Progress is obvious. If the same teams have been on top for the last 5 seasons, interchanging places only how can you say they are not improving year on year.

We will see where we end up finally but if it isnt 4th then what is the tangible progress

If you are a rocket company say "SpaceArse" and you start off by having your rocket blow up on the launchpad, then a year later it blows up 5 miles in the sky. Is that progress?.
Meanwhile another company 200 miles away "SpaceCity" is launching vehicles which go round the Earth and land safely

Lets not delude ourselves. We are only in the Space race literally for the government grants...or shall we say in this case the suckers wallet grants.

[Letters]

I dont take his opinions seriously
I posted a league table comparison from last season and this. That isn't an opinion :)


Progress is obvious.
See the league table comparison. And just generally, look at the way we've been playing. If you don't value my opinion because I didn't buy in to the "Wenger is a bumbling idiot" nonsense, then you can look at lots of other posters on here who are seeing the same things I'm seeing. OK, Monday night was a car crash. But generally our performances have been good recently. It feels like a team more willing to fight for each other and for the fans. The team seems to be playing with more purpose. And they've reacted well to setbacks. We could yet collapse, you can only really judge progress at the end of the season, but right now things are looking better. Our reaction to Monday's mess will be another test.


We will see where we end up finally but if it isnt 4th then what is the tangible progress

Last season we finished 8th on 61 points. Top 4 isn't the only metric of progress. Last year we weren't even in the conversation for top 4


If you are a rocket company say "SpaceArse" and you start off by having your rocket blow up on the launchpad, then a year later it blows up 5 miles in the sky. Is that progress?.

Yes, that's progress. It's closer to what SpaceCity can do than you were. It tells you that you're still not where you need to be. But the important thing is you continue to progress with the aim of emulating what SpaceCity can do. At the same time one should be realistic. If SpaceCity have an Elon Musk backing them who can pump more money in to R&D than we ever can then that does rather affect our ability to do all the things they can do. We do have enough resources that we should be aiming to compete with them, but from the last couple of seasons we were never going to bridge that gap in one season. I'm not entirely convinced that Arteta is the right man to get us there, but for me he's earning the right to try.

[IBK]

Do you think all the top teams improve steadily year on year? That isn't how anything works. We have clearly improved since last year.
Whether we continue to will remain to be seen but Arteta has earned the right to try.



I don't think we are ready for the CL yet to be honest, but I think Arteta is taking us in the right direction and has thus earned the right to try and continue that.



Holy shit, dude. You understand that fans of most clubs don't get to see half the success we've seen? It's only 2 years since our last FA Cup. I've seen us win more trophies in my time than fans of many clubs have or will ever see.
The title has eluded us for a long time but we have no divine right to win it, and in an era where clubs are buying up titles left, right and centre it's not as easy as it used to be.
Right now I'm just looking for progress. And I'm seeing it. I don't think we will be sweeping all before us any time soon and I'm not sure Arteta is the right person to get us right to the top. But I do see progress and he's earning the right to continue that, for now.

:gp:

As for Globalgunner's post - a dollop of reality is required here. This is that since Wenger's last years we have been a club in total drift. We failed to make CL - AW's benchmark - in his last 2 seasons, and have failed to do so since. More importantly we lost both our identity and our direction; underwent a shit show in terms of club leadership and saw the fracturing of a fan base that is an essential component of the togetherness that sustained success needs to be built on. Add to this the far more level playing field that TV money has brougth to the EPL and other clubs being bought by investors with deeper pockets than before and you have a near perfect storm for a club like ours. For an almost direct comparison for what happens to a club that loses its longest serving and most successful manager - and the fact that throwing money at a problem is not an automatic solution - just look at Manure since SAF. For an example of how a longer term approach that focusses on identity and canny investment in players who buy into a programme look at Liverpool (I am ignoring Citeh and Chelsea here as theirs is a model that is simply not available to us).

Its no surprise that Arteta has made mistakes and shown inexperience - this is his first managerial job - but Klopp took 3 years to win his first silverware (Arteta won his first major silverware in his first full season with us) and our manager is starting way behind where Klopp did in terms both of experience and players. What we fans have been sceptical about is what the manager's plan is, and signs of serious change in playing style; identity and 'DNA'. Arteta has delivered this this season no matter whether we now finish top 4 or top 7. As Letters says, the points total so far speaks for itself. The plan is clear for the first time in years.

The question of whether Arteta can win us the league or the CL is totally premature at this stage. We needed to get the basic building blocks in place and the fans behind the team before even thinking about sustained progress to that point.

Monday was a setback for sure, and a thin squad/injuries may yet leave us disappointed this season but to argue that there has been no progress is way far of the mark.

[Globalgunner]

When your reality is being 2nd class, accepting it and even justifying it well...thats the nub of the problem right there

[Letters]

When your reality is being 2nd class, accepting it and even justifying it well...thats the nub of the problem right there

The point is for the last few seasons we've barely been second class. Let's get there before we upgrade to 1st class.
The direction of travel is the important thing to me. Most of us see improvement this season, not just in results but in the way the team feels more cohesive. They look like they're playing for each other. That might not translate in to top 4 this year, but we are in the conversation this year where last year we weren't. If Arteta doesn't improve us more next season then fine, we should look elsewhere. I'm not sure he's the man to take on City and Liverpool. But, for now, there's progress from where we've come from. That's enough, for now.

[IBK]

The point is for the last few seasons we've barely been second class. Let's get there before we upgrade to 1st class.
The direction of travel is the important thing to me. Most of us see improvement this season, not just in results but in the way the team feels more cohesive. They look like they're playing for each other. That might not translate in to top 4 this year, but we are in the conversation this year where last year we weren't. If Arteta doesn't improve us more next season then fine, we should look elsewhere. I'm not sure he's the man to take on City and Liverpool. But, for now, there's progress from where we've come from. That's enough, for now.

This. Plus re taking on Citeh and Liverpool - if we do wish to 'upgrade' a manager in due course to push higher, then we ned to do so from a solid base that a so-called 'top manager' can build from - much like the base that Klopp had to work from. It is clear that this is what the club is now trying to schieve - to build a solid base of talented youngsters not yet in their prime that can then push again.

Re Globalgunner's comment - I don't think anyone is saying that they accept permanently being 2nd class but we have no choice but to accept the reality that since 2016 at least we have been drifitng in terms of where we want to be. Its one thing having so-called ambition, quite another realising that ambition. We have to accept also that we are simply not in a position simply to buy success like Citeh and the Chavs have been - and we are a few years behind the likes of Liverpool. in these circumstances seeking to attain 4th place first before trying to push on is not a lack of ambition, it is common sense.

[Marc Overmars]

The reality is that no one is getting near City and Liverpool because they’re 2 of the best teams in the world and arguably 2 of the best teams the Premier League has ever seen. We all have to wait for Pep or Klopp to bugger off before anything changes there.

There’s levels to this thing and while lowering expectations doesn’t sit well, there needs to be some dose of reality. 4th isn’t everything but it’s a starting block for us.

[Letters]

The reality is that no one is getting near City and Liverpool because they’re 2 of the best teams in the world and arguably 2 of the best teams the Premier League has ever seen.
I was reminded the other day how insane Liverpool's form was just before the pandemic break.
P29 W27 D1 L1 :wacko:
Mental

[selassie]

When your reality is being 2nd class, accepting it and even justifying it well...thats the nub of the problem right there

We are in the chasing group, as others have said Citeh and Liverpool are by some distance the best teams in the division if not Europe. Sure we need to improve and Monday night was probably a bit of a reality check for us all, but we are a top 4 challenger and not miles behind the likes of Chelsea.

We have improved a fair bit this Season, Monday's result doesn't change that. Whether we have improved enough to clinch a CL Spot remains to be seen, but even if we do make CL we are likely to be one of the weakest teams in it anyway.

[I am invisible]

I’m not too worried about the performance on Monday - wasn’t expecting it with the run we’ve been on, but by the same token the fact that it can happen doesn’t surprise me either. Every now and then we are going to have an Everton game in us - that’s just the reality of working with a young squad. They have the talent, but they don’t yet have the experience to assess what’s coming and get themselves mentally set for different situations.

Looking back on our bad results this year, it’s usually being unprepared that’s caught us out - late Monday night kick offs causing us to lose a bit of focus, torrential rain at Brighton, the home crowds suddenly roaring to life at OT and Anfield after a couple of incidents they didn’t like, even stupid things like not testing the length of the grass at Burnley during the warm up. That sort of thing. On Monday I think it was a simple case of having our momentum broken up by the international break, our young players not yet knowing how to regroup quickly after being away (and maybe not being used to all the travel), and again having to play after everyone else late Monday evening.

On the plus side, though, whilst we still have the odd game like this in us, we’re also capable of going on 5/6/7 game winning streaks and holding our nerve in crunch games when we’re on a roll - 10 wins in our last 13 games is pretty fucking good form, tbf.

No, I’m not really that concerned about Monday’s performance - it’s the injuries that have me sweating! Partey is pretty much doing the job of two men in our new formation and is one of two ‘fixed’ positions in the team that everyone else plays off, so he’s going to be a huge loss if he’s out for a stretch. And losing Tierney on top of Tomi means that we’re left with two gung-ho fullbacks who can’t defend! For a team that’s built around structural discipline and fluidity, this could really hurt. Could really do with Tomi coming back - that would at least give us options to play with.

[Marc Overmars]

I’m worried tbf. Monday felt like a bit of a watershed moment for the season. Add the injuries on top of that and it doesn’t feel great.

I expect us to sneak past Brighton and I guess Southampton but after that we’ll need a monumental effort to stay in the hunt. Unless Spurs go all Spursy (:pray:) we’ll probably need at least 7 points from Chelsea A, United H and West Ham A.

[Chippy]

I’m worried tbf. Monday felt like a bit of a watershed moment for the season. Add the injuries on top of that and it doesn’t feel great.

I expect us to sneak past Brighton and I guess Southampton but after that we’ll need a monumental effort to stay in the hunt. Unless Spurs go all Spursy (:pray:) we’ll probably need at least 7 points from Chelsea A, United H and West Ham A.

I am also worried.

And massively agree about the watershed moment. a heavy defeat and a mounting injury list. When have we seen this before? (like every bloody season) :sarcy:

Yes, improvements have been made, however, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs (because they will most likely get top four) and Newcastle will be strentghening in the summer and will push us down the pecking order for next season.

We have no devine right to be up there, but it would be nice. ;)

[Letters]

I'm worried too. More about the injuries than the performance on Monday, we've had those before and bounced back. But injuries were always a risk with a squad this thin, it looks like it's going to come back to bite us :(

[Chippy]

I'm worried too. More about the injuries than the performance on Monday, we've had those before and bounced back. But injuries were always a risk with a squad this thin, it looks like it's going to come back to bite us :(

Yup! :upset:

[selassie]

:shrug:

It is what it is, I can't be bothered to get stressed about it. The injuries are a big problem and I personally think the Spuds are favourites now for 4th but we can only do what we can do. I think if our run in was a bit more favourable I would have a lot more confident even with the injuries but we have to go to Chelsea, West Ham & The Spuds aswell as a home game against United. It's a big ask for us to expect to finish 4th now.

[selassie]

I’m worried tbf. Monday felt like a bit of a watershed moment for the season. Add the injuries on top of that and it doesn’t feel great.

I expect us to sneak past Brighton and I guess Southampton but after that we’ll need a monumental effort to stay in the hunt. Unless Spurs go all Spursy (:pray:) we’ll probably need at least 7 points from Chelsea A, United H and West Ham A.

Call me negative, but with the current personnel available to us and presumably available by the time we play those teams, I think we will do well to get 5 points out of those games. 7 points would have been a tough ask even with a fully fit squad, with what we have now we are looking very weak in defence and central midfield.

[IBK]

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?

[Chippy]

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?

Lol. Tommy is finished for the season mate. Another injury prone player in the ranks.

[LDG]

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?

If Tommy was back you could sit Xhaka, but you can’t have two cart horses on the flanks with Cedric and Xhaka.

I see the logic in switching Saka as he’s done it before, and I must admit I thought he was the go to when Tavares was more than a woman versus CP, but you can’t take our (currently) best player and move him from his most effective position.

That said, I’d put Saka right back, have Pepe in front. Put Xhaka LB and Cedric fucks off

[LDG]

I thought we’d get beat on Monday because we seem to be shit against Palace, and we have been for a few years. They’re a team that works fucking hard, and if you don’t match that, you’ll get picked off.

We lost it in midfield, because Partey got bossed. They put major pressure on him and he collapsed. Xhaka simply can’t keep up with the energy and strength palace showed. Vieira knows if you win the middle you control the pace…

In games like that, you have to send the fear of the reaper up the arse of a team by having a striker/strikers who require midfield attention. Frankly a back to goal Lacazette was not going to put the wind up them.

The problem is a light squad with no reliable deputy wing backs, one “one” trick pony upfront, and Xhaka who can’t play under pressure

[I am invisible]

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?
Briefly. I don’t think we can afford to lose Saka from the press and the attack, though. No one else is scoring atm.

If we go back to 4231 and a double-pivot in midfield (Xhaka and Sambi), I think I’d stick with Nuno and hope he can play himself back into the kind of confidence he was showing earlier in the season. Maybe bring in Holding and move White to RB to balance it (assuming Tomi’s still out)? If the crowd get behind him and give him an early roar of support I think that’ll make a big difference to him.

(And if he doesn’t get the start today I think that’s him done here.)

Saka stays where he is for me, but I do think there’s a conversation to be had about Lacazette now - our expectations of him have dropped so low that he pretty much gets a free pass on goal-scoring (which is absolutely crazy), but I’m not sure he’s even offering that much on hold-up play any more? Certainly nothing that Smith Rowe or Martinelli or Pepe couldn’t do. I just wish we’d tried it weeks ago when we were on a run, for 30 minutes here and there on the 60 min mark, instead of leaving it until it’s critical and not having a fucking clue how it will work! Then again, if Laca isn’t scoring, doesn’t even get in the box and isn’t even doing a great job of holding it up then we quite literally have nothing to lose.

[I am invisible]

(Although, for the record, I don’t expect we’ll touch Lacazette at this point - it would probably be one too many key changes for Arteta on top of both fullbacks and changing CM. At the very least I’d like to see us try something other than Eddie when we sub him off, though - at least try something different at that point.)

[Chippy]

Bye bye Mikel. :angry:

Rubbish!

[Marc Overmars]

Paid the price for such a ridiculously thin squad and no rotation. Options are non-existent outside the first 11.

[selassie]

Top 4 is over. We are fighting for Europa place now.

[Chippy]

Top 4 is over. We are fighting for Europa place now.

Don't care.

[I am invisible]

Paid the price for such a ridiculously thin squad and no rotation. Options are non-existent outside the first 11.
It’s the lack of rotation that’s killed us. The squad might be thin, but I don’t think that’s the issue here - there’s options there that Arteta simply doesn’t trust or use, and he can’t afford that.

For all the good work he’s doing in terms of fundamental coaching, implementing football identity and overhauling the culture at the club, Arteta clearly still has a lot to learn about game and player management - you can’t just run the same XI into the ground like that and expect them to last 10 months. He has to get better at working with sub-optimal options. Some of these guys might have been ready to help if we’d invested in them throughout the season, but now we’ve backed ourselves into a corner where none of them look ready and would probably take most of our remaining games to rediscover their rhythm and form.

I keep trying to remind myself that he’s basically the equivalent of a player like Saka or Martinelli in terms of his managerial experience and development - that his progress won’t be perfectly linear and that this is how you learn - but it does feel like he goes out of his way to learn all his lessons the hard way at times! Whether he’d ever admit it or not, I think he needs a more senior figure at the club who’s opinion he respects - someone who he can turn to for advice when he needs it and someone who isn’t afraid to offer advice, even if it hasn’t been sought. Again, his team are doing a lot of good things, but they do feel like a bunch of yes men.

[Mac76]

Totally agree re failure to rotate and just also his lack of trust in all but a very few players

I guess it hasn't helped that we exited all the cups early and had no European games either, so less chance for the fringe players to play lesser teams, but that being the case he needed to give more players a runout more regularly in the PL, as you say, and rest the first-teamers more

[selassie]

It’s the lack of rotation that’s killed us. The squad might be thin, but I don’t think that’s the issue here - there’s options there that Arteta simply doesn’t trust or use, and he can’t afford that.

For all the good work he’s doing in terms of fundamental coaching, implementing football identity and overhauling the culture at the club, Arteta clearly still has a lot to learn about game and player management - you can’t just run the same XI into the ground like that and expect them to last 10 months. He has to get better at working with sub-optimal options. Some of these guys might have been ready to help if we’d invested in them throughout the season, but now we’ve backed ourselves into a corner where none of them look ready and would probably take most of our remaining games to rediscover their rhythm and form.

I keep trying to remind myself that he’s basically the equivalent of a player like Saka or Martinelli in terms of his managerial experience and development - that his progress won’t be perfectly linear and that this is how you learn - but it does feel like he goes out of his way to learn all his lessons the hard way at times! Whether he’d ever admit it or not, I think he needs a more senior figure at the club who’s opinion he respects - someone who he can turn to for advice when he needs it and someone who isn’t afraid to offer advice, even if it hasn’t been sought. Again, his team are doing a lot of good things, but they do feel like a bunch of yes men.

:gp:

Totally agree.

[Globalgunner]

Can someone explain to me why we are a nursery for a juvenile manager. Was that the premise when he was appointed?. If so, when does he kick on?. Next season, 5 years. Id like to know so I can lower my expectations next season, and the next and maybe the next after that?

[Chippy]

Can someone explain to me why we are a nursery for a juvenile manager. Was that the premise when he was appointed?. If so, when does he kick on?. Next season, 5 years. Id like to know so I can lower my expectations next season, and the next and maybe the next after that?

Just lower your expectations today, then there is no disappointment :tiphat:

[Globalgunner]

Just lower your expectations today, then there is no disappointment :tiphat:

You are too kind good sir. I'll come back when we are good again

[Letters]

Can someone explain to me why we are a nursery for a juvenile manager.
Always felt like a punt. He has no pedigree but he worked under Pep, talks a good game and he did win us the FA Cup in his first season. This season at times it has felt like there has been some progress. The Collapse is disappointing although not super surprising. The lack of a top striker and the thinness of the squad always felt likely to cost us. Of late we have been getting away with it and I’d started to believe we might get away with it. But it seems not.
The question is to we believe that there has been some progress and give Arteta a chance to continue that or do we look elsewhere. I’m still in the former camp for now but if we really properly collapse in to mid table, which is certainly possible now, then I might take a different view.

[Marc Overmars]

It’s the lack of rotation that’s killed us. The squad might be thin, but I don’t think that’s the issue here - there’s options there that Arteta simply doesn’t trust or use, and he can’t afford that.

For all the good work he’s doing in terms of fundamental coaching, implementing football identity and overhauling the culture at the club, Arteta clearly still has a lot to learn about game and player management - you can’t just run the same XI into the ground like that and expect them to last 10 months. He has to get better at working with sub-optimal options. Some of these guys might have been ready to help if we’d invested in them throughout the season, but now we’ve backed ourselves into a corner where none of them look ready and would probably take most of our remaining games to rediscover their rhythm and form.

I keep trying to remind myself that he’s basically the equivalent of a player like Saka or Martinelli in terms of his managerial experience and development - that his progress won’t be perfectly linear and that this is how you learn - but it does feel like he goes out of his way to learn all his lessons the hard way at times! Whether he’d ever admit it or not, I think he needs a more senior figure at the club who’s opinion he respects - someone who he can turn to for advice when he needs it and someone who isn’t afraid to offer advice, even if it hasn’t been sought. Again, his team are doing a lot of good things, but they do feel like a bunch of yes men.

This is the downside to having no European football or cup runs. Squad players aren’t given the opportunity to bed in and develop. Playing every 7-10 days gives ample recovery time so there hasn’t really been a need to rotate.

[Letters]

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

[I am invisible]

This is the downside to having no European football or cup runs. Squad players aren’t given the opportunity to bed in and develop. Playing every 7-10 days gives ample recovery time so there hasn’t really been a need to rotate.

Yeah, I agree. I also think our lack of goal-scorers has played a part - if we had that ability to ruthlessly bury teams and wrap games up by the hour mark then there may have been more scope to get more minutes in a few more legs along the way.

[Mac76]

Always felt like a punt.

yes, he's definitely a punt

[Mac76]

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

that guy's bang on - put him in charge of the club NOW! :scarf:

[KSE Comedy Club]

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

Spot on.

Unfortunately, all too obvious and all too predictable.

[selassie]

Always felt like a punt. He has no pedigree but he worked under Pep, talks a good game and he did win us the FA Cup in his first season. This season at times it has felt like there has been some progress. The Collapse is disappointing although not super surprising. The lack of a top striker and the thinness of the squad always felt likely to cost us. Of late we have been getting away with it and I’d started to believe we might get away with it. But it seems not.
The question is to we believe that there has been some progress and give Arteta a chance to continue that or do we look elsewhere. I’m still in the former camp for now but if we really properly collapse in to mid table, which is certainly possible now, then I might take a different view.

We have improved but as you rightly said we have to watch how the season plays out now to see where we finish, how we perform and what we have really learnt.

We still struggle offensively as a team, the numbers are still down and it's simply not good enough, if Arteta isn't happy with his options...I'm certainly not, then he needs to go out and buy what is required, no more excuses. This summer is really key for Arteta and Edu, assuming we finish somewhere in a European place then we should be attractive enough to improve the attacking side of the team by making good signings that improve the team. We need to improve Central Midfield too and the squad in general.

I am all for signing younger players and in general we have recruited very well over the past few years but we must buy players that improve the team now, no signings for the future or loading the squad with potential and hiding behind it as an excuse to failure.

I have personally given up on a top 4 finish but we certainly should be doing as much as possible to finish as high up the table as possible so 5th at the bare minimum.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

It's the same analysis as always. The same that has applied for over a decade. And the same old shite about the top 4 trophy. All the same old problems. When you play with your back to goal, when you play sideways and backwards, when you do it for so long it becomes second nature no matter who joins or leaves, you are only going to compete for the coveted top 4 trophy if all the other clubs bar three maximum are even shittier than you. And even if that happened, the top 4 trophy is just a gateway for future humiliation in a tournament the club simply isn't fit to compete in. Wenger might as well have stayed. Nothing is different, not with anything that actually matters. You could say there has been "progress" in achieving the very basics of defence, but compared to what? Certainly not compared to the seasons after seasons we'd hardly concede a goal. If you are a winner who strives to become a loser, it's not progress to be second last.

The fans need to keep their hands in their pockets until Kroenke is forced out and the club returns to the business of football. This has always been the case since that bastard first walked in. Until it happens nothing can change because the club is happy with the money the fans keep inexplicably shoving its way.

[Mac76]

It's the same analysis as always. The same that has applied for over a decade. And the same old shite about the top 4 trophy. All the same old problems. When you play with your back to goal, when you play sideways and backwards, when you do it for so long it becomes second nature no matter who joins or leaves, you are only going to compete for the coveted top 4 trophy if all the other clubs bar three maximum are even shittier than you. And even if that happened, the top 4 trophy is just a gateway for future humiliation in a tournament the club simply isn't fit to compete in. Wenger might as well have stayed. Nothing is different, not with anything that actually matters. You could say there has been "progress" in achieving the very basics of defence, but compared to what? Certainly not compared to the seasons after seasons we'd hardly concede a goal. If you are a winner who strives to become a loser, it's not progress to be second last.

The fans need to keep their hands in their pockets until Kroenke is forced out and the club returns to the business of football. This has always been the case since that bastard first walked in. Until it happens nothing can change because the club is happy with the money the fans keep inexplicably shoving its way.

failed Superleague aside (which i know is a big issue but hey we weren't alone) the Kroenkes aren't the problem, except that they don't know enough about footbal to hire the right people who do

they've backed the club with real money and made loads of signings - it's not their fault if Arteta then throws half of them on scrapheap

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does
Pretty much this, the very first post.
The damage is already done by Letting Guendozi and Saliba leave (and they are not coming back).
He has also fallen out with various players.
Why be stubborn and let Auba leave at a pivotal point in the season? He wants to be like Pep, but he is a rookie.

[Niall_Quinn]

failed Superleague aside (which i know is a big issue but hey we weren't alone) the Kroenkes aren't the problem, except that they don't know enough about footbal to hire the right people who do

they've backed the club with real money and made loads of signings - it's not their fault if Arteta then throws half of them on scrapheap

Yeah, that could be viewed as a problem.

I'd like to see the net balance, regarding this backing of the club with real money. I'm guessing that balance runs very much in their favour over their reign of mediocrity.

[Niall_Quinn]

I watched some of the Palace game, not all of it because it was unwatchable.

The players on the flanks advance down the pitch when we have possession and then make themselves available by turning their back to goal and offering the easy lay-off. As soon as they get the ball they do one of two things. If they have a bot of space they fuck about, tipping it this way then that. Then they play it back to the original passer or they lay it off with a square pass to the middle. If they don't have space they instantly go sideways or backwards.

The players in the middle get the ball, advance up the field, turn around so their back is to goal, and play it out to the flank (where the recipient is waiting, back to goal), or all the way back to the defensive middle where the same depressing sequence begins again.

When players get the ball in an advanced position (very rare) they either pick the easy option, square pass across the box, or the easier option, tap in back to the middle. At that point, maybe 50% of the time, the player in the middle will opt to tap in back into defence.

When the option arises to take a player on, especially on the flanks, the carrier will stop, turn his back to goal and then proceed as described above.

Throw-ins are aimlessly tossed into traffic or directly safely backwards.

Corners are a joke, as has been the case for years.

When a shooting opportunity arises it will inevitably be a wild strike off target, especially when there are better options available. I think everyone on the team knows those "better" options will result in a pointless back pass so they give it a lash and hope for the best.

This represents 90-95% of the play with the odd few instances that allow the players to remember they can actually play the game. The whole industry is now built on those few seconds where competitive football penetrates the Barcelona-lite bullshit that has served football so poorly for over a decade.

Tip, tap, tip, tap. Every season. Doesn't matter who the manager is. Doesn't matter who wears the shirts. Tip, tap. Tip, tap. Pointless, boring, soul crushing garbage that has become the playbook not just for Arsenal but most teams in most leagues.

All you have to do is watch any football match prior to around the turn of the new century to see the stark difference. Everyone knows how far the quality has dropped, but they make excuses by saying the modern game requires more energy - even though it chugs along at snail pace.

Arsenal FC has been the undisputed master of this dire parody of football for so long now, with not even a glimmer of a hint of and end in sight.

[selassie]

Yeah, that could be viewed as a problem.

I'd like to see the net balance, regarding this backing of the club with real money. I'm guessing that balance runs very much in their favour over their reign of mediocrity.

Would you want Arteta in charge if he was given literally a bottomless pit of money to spend? Arteta has had more than enough funds, he isn't doing badly per say but our standards are very low these days, anything better than 8th is progress.

[Niall_Quinn]

Would you want Arteta in charge if he was given literally a bottomless pit of money to spend? Arteta has had more than enough funds, he isn't doing badly per say but our standards are very low these days, anything better than 8th is progress.

Why do you ask that question when I stated it doesn't matter who is in charge? It's odd, like people don't read.

Also, I called out the fans who measure progress against non-performance. So I guess you are agreeing with me.

[Bumble]

Emery is in the CL semis... with the right team maybe he aint so bad.

[Letters]

Emery is in the CL semis... with the right team maybe he aint so bad.

He’s clearly a good manager.
Typical that he crashes and burns with us.
“It’s not you, it’s us”

[selassie]

Emery is in the CL semis... with the right team maybe he aint so bad.

We / He was hounded out of Arsenal. The fall out of being a manager post Wenger. He's done an amazing job at Villareal and is def top 10 best managers in Europe, he's a level and a bit below the Elite but he wins stuff with unfancied sides.

If we had given him as long as we have given Arteta I think he'd have us back in CL TBH.

[selassie]

Why do you ask that question when I stated it doesn't matter who is in charge? It's odd, like people don't read.

Also, I called out the fans who measure progress against non-performance. So I guess you are agreeing with me.

I skipped over a lot of the post as it didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, i read bits about it apparently being Kroenke's fault we are in this mess or something like that, something about how we shouldn't attend games, the usual stuff you have posted for the past 10 years or so.

All I did was ask you a question, not sure what that has to do with agreeing or not agreeing but hey ho.

[Marc Overmars]

He’s obviously a good coach but in his second season we were in free fall. Sometimes things just don’t work if the environment isn’t right no matter what your ability is. Can he deal with clubs with higher demands? Probably not.

Underdog Spanish sides are clearly his comfort zone and what he does better than anyone.

[Mac76]

I skipped over a lot of the post as it didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, i read bits about it apparently being Kroenke's fault we are in this mess or something like that, something about how we shouldn't attend games, the usual stuff you have posted for the past 10 years or so.

All I did was ask you a question, not sure what that has to do with agreeing or not agreeing but hey ho.

:lol:

[Mac76]

We / He was hounded out of Arsenal. The fall out of being a manager post Wenger. He's done an amazing job at Villareal and is def top 10 best managers in Europe, he's a level and a bit below the Elite but he wins stuff with unfancied sides.

If we had given him as long as we have given Arteta I think he'd have us back in CL TBH.

he couldn't speak the language and couldn't handle managing in the PL - apart from that he was fine

[KSE Comedy Club]

I watched some of the Palace game, not all of it because it was unwatchable.

The players on the flanks advance down the pitch when we have possession and then make themselves available by turning their back to goal and offering the easy lay-off. As soon as they get the ball they do one of two things. If they have a bot of space they fuck about, tipping it this way then that. Then they play it back to the original passer or they lay it off with a square pass to the middle. If they don't have space they instantly go sideways or backwards.

The players in the middle get the ball, advance up the field, turn around so their back is to goal, and play it out to the flank (where the recipient is waiting, back to goal), or all the way back to the defensive middle where the same depressing sequence begins again.

When players get the ball in an advanced position (very rare) they either pick the easy option, square pass across the box, or the easier option, tap in back to the middle. At that point, maybe 50% of the time, the player in the middle will opt to tap in back into defence.

When the option arises to take a player on, especially on the flanks, the carrier will stop, turn his back to goal and then proceed as described above.

Throw-ins are aimlessly tossed into traffic or directly safely backwards.

Corners are a joke, as has been the case for years.

When a shooting opportunity arises it will inevitably be a wild strike off target, especially when there are better options available. I think everyone on the team knows those "better" options will result in a pointless back pass so they give it a lash and hope for the best.

This represents 90-95% of the play with the odd few instances that allow the players to remember they can actually play the game. The whole industry is now built on those few seconds where competitive football penetrates the Barcelona-lite bullshit that has served football so poorly for over a decade.

Tip, tap, tip, tap. Every season. Doesn't matter who the manager is. Doesn't matter who wears the shirts. Tip, tap. Tip, tap. Pointless, boring, soul crushing garbage that has become the playbook not just for Arsenal but most teams in most leagues.

All you have to do is watch any football match prior to around the turn of the new century to see the stark difference. Everyone knows how far the quality has dropped, but they make excuses by saying the modern game requires more energy - even though it chugs along at snail pace.

Arsenal FC has been the undisputed master of this dire parody of football for so long now, with not even a glimmer of a hint of and end in sight.

I applaud you sir.

Pretty much what I have been sewing my eyes open to try and stomach for the last few years too!

[KSE Comedy Club]

“It’s not you, it’s us”

:haha:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

He’s obviously a good coach but in his second season we were in free fall. Sometimes things just don’t work if the environment isn’t right no matter what your ability is. Can he deal with clubs with higher demands? Probably not.

Underdog Spanish sides are clearly his comfort zone and what he does better than anyone.

Spot on.

If we ever get to thinking BIG again...i.e. hire the best proven managers for the best league in the world (something Spurs did which some of us said we should go out and do), we'll probably get back to where we belong faster, until then, let's keep experimenting with leftovers and doe eyed interns and see where it gets us, since that has apparently become the Arsenal way.

[selassie]

he couldn't speak the language and couldn't handle managing in the PL - apart from that he was fine

Aye, slightly unrelated but I see Moyes has got West Ham to a Europa Semi, things are starting to not look too good for Arteta if West Ham go on to win it. We need to really step up now.

[Globalgunner]

It will likely take Spurs winning the CL for the fans to take umbrage enough to sack this chancer. Fans far too passive.

[Mac76]

It will likely take Spurs winning the CL for the fans to take umbrage enough to sack this chancer. Fans far too passive.

If we tailspin this season like i think we might, he's gonna have to do well at the start of next season to hold on IMO

[Chippy]

Even when Spurs lose and give us a chance, we lose.
Arteta out. Today. Please.

[Bumble]

When arteta does leave I doubt it will be this season as we were 4th for a bit so that's improving. However lose to Chelsea and united which is perfectly possible and that would be 5 in a row so arteta could just see out season and we move on from there. Who would we like to replace him with.

[Mac76]

When arteta does leave I doubt it will be this season as we were 4th for a bit so that's improving. However lose to Chelsea and united which is perfectly possible and that would be 5 in a row so arteta could just see out season and we move on from there. Who would we like to replace him with.

Someone who knows what they're doing, it would make such a change...

[Letters]

It will likely take Spurs winning the CL for the fans to take umbrage enough to sack this chancer. Fans far too passive.

I don’t want Arsenal to sack any manager because of what another team does.
Sack him for what we do - or don’t do.
The mood is shifting back to Arteta Out. Mine certainly is and I’m more patient and less reactionary than most. As I said elsewhere, the best thing about any manager now is they’re not Wenger. In the sense that they don’t have that history with the club. If they’re not getting results you can’t look back at past success because there isn’t any.

[selassie]

It will likely take Spurs winning the CL for the fans to take umbrage enough to sack this chancer. Fans far too passive.

I was personally pro Arteta until this recent collapse. With Chelsea, United and West Ham coming up if we lose all 3 then we need to get rid in the Summer no question. I am definitely leaning to Arteta out, 60/40 in favour of us dumping him. I'm tired of his attitude, he talks like he isn't responsible for this current mess.

[selassie]

I would just like to add these are some of the games coming up. I’ve given my predictions below given our current form. Honestly right now I think a draw is the best we can hope for in any of those games. A sequence of results like this would mean Arteta’s position is untenable IMO

Chelsea Away - Loss
Man United Home - Loss
West Ham Away - Loss
Newcastle Away - Loss
Spurs Away - Loss

[Mac76]

I would just like to add these are some of the games coming up. I’ve given my predictions below given our current form. Honestly right now I think a draw is the best we can hope for in any of those games. A sequence of results like this would mean Arteta’s position is untenable IMO

Chelsea Away - Loss
Man United Home - Loss
West Ham Away - Loss
Newcastle Away - Loss
Spurs Away - Loss

Hard to disagree with those predictions tbh, Newcastle maybe a draw - he needs to bring back some of those loan players, assuming we were smart enough to build in a recall clause, which knowing us we weren't.

Every side now knows the only first 11 Arteta trusts and how he'll line them up, this is all of his own making

[Letters]

It seems vanishingly unlikely we will lose 8 in a row

[Marc Overmars]

I’d say we’re likely to lose at least 2 more games, which would make it 13 defeats. Same as Wenger’s final season.

Progress. :bow:

[Letters]

It seems rumours of our progress have been greatly exaggerated :(

[selassie]

It seems rumours of our progress have been greatly exaggerated :(

To be fair I was aboard the Progress train right up until the past week or so. The limp way we are performing right now is actually a bit of a surprise to me, they fooled me! I thought this team had something about them, I was wrong!

[selassie]

It seems vanishingly unlikely we will lose 8 in a row

I wouldn't put it past this lot, they have collapsed like a pack of cards against some of the worst teams on current form right now in the League, it's mindblowing stuff.

[selassie]

Arsenal begin ‘top-to-bottom cultural review of the club’

by Harry Diamond
about 2 hours ago

Arsenal are conducting a ‘top-to-bottom cultural review of the club’ as the Gunners look to rebuild both on and off the pitch.

The North London side are embarking on a project called ‘The Arsenal Way’ in which the club will attempt to review the culture at the Emirates in a bid to improve their fortunes.

The project will aim to hear views from staff ‘at all levels of the organisation’ as the Gunners look to identify problems and return to former glories, with an internal feeling that the club have deteriorated since the latter stages of Arsene Wenger’s reign.

The Athletic are reporting that Arsenal have enlisted the help of consultancy firm People-Made to help with the process and the company will report their findings to the club in the summer and design a ‘cultural direction’ for the coming years.

Forums and surveys have already began as part of the project as the Gunners look to move forward in a positive direction.

Mikel Arteta – alongside technical director Edu and academy boss Per Mertesacker – is involved in the review which is being led by director Lord Harris, chief executive Vinai Venkatesham and chief commercial officer Juliet Slot.



https://thefootballfaithful.com/arsenal-begin-top-to-bottom-cultural-review-of-the-club/

[Niall_Quinn]

https://thefootballfaithful.com/arsenal-begin-top-to-bottom-cultural-review-of-the-club/

That's embarrassing. Think of what it actually means.

Hi, we're Arsenal but we don't have a clue so we're asking a bunch or corporate shirts for help. Hand out the surveys, 5 year contract to the lucky survey winner.

It's embarrassing.

They've answered their own question. They are the problem. If they can't figure out how to build a serious club with all the resources inherited from real football men then GTFO and find somebody who doesn't need to ring around to get a clue.

[Marc Overmars]

Complete bunch of losers.

[Mac76]

https://thefootballfaithful.com/arsenal-begin-top-to-bottom-cultural-review-of-the-club/

this is literally Arteta finding new ways of blaming everyone except himself - "oh we're losing all the time, it's obvs the culture of the club that's at fault, nothing to do with me guv, I just pick the team and tactics etc..." :rolleyes:

[selassie]

That's embarrassing. Think of what it actually means.

Hi, we're Arsenal but we don't have a clue so we're asking a bunch or corporate shirts for help. Hand out the surveys, 5 year contract to the lucky survey winner.

It's embarrassing.

They've answered their own question. They are the problem. If they can't figure out how to build a serious club with all the resources inherited from real football men then GTFO and find somebody who doesn't need to ring around to get a clue.

Oh I agree.

[selassie]

this is literally Arteta finding new ways of blaming everyone except himself - "oh we're losing all the time, it's obvs the culture of the club that's at fault, nothing to do with me guv, I just pick the team and tactics etc..." :rolleyes:

I was thinking exactly the same! How he is even allowed to review the issue when he's a major part of it! :lol:

[Letters]

I wouldn't put it past this lot, they have collapsed like a pack of cards against some of the worst teams on current form right now in the League, it's mindblowing stuff.

It's been pretty pathetic but have we ever lost 8 games in a row? Like...ever?
I was struggling to find the answer to that but it seems pretty unlikely. Suspect Chelsea with duff us up but I reckon we'll get a point vs Utd, might even beat them.

[Bumble]

It's been pretty pathetic but have we ever lost 8 games in a row? Like...ever?
I was struggling to find the answer to that but it seems pretty unlikely. Suspect Chelsea with duff us up but I reckon we'll get a point vs Utd, might even beat them.

Watching united v Liverpool definitely got a chance against united. They are awful and just rely on individuals whereas we don't have the individuals but at least look like a team

[KSE Comedy Club]

It seems rumours of our progress have been greatly exaggerated :(

tbf - I am sure you started those rumours.......:unsure:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Watching united v Liverpool definitely got a chance against united. They are awful and just rely on individuals whereas we don't have the individuals but at least look like a team

Utd can't defend - we can't score.

It's going to be like watching a bunch of retards try to fuck a door knob :shrug:

[Letters]

tbf - I am sure you started those rumours.......:unsure:

:haha:

Fair.

I mean, I was just comparing this season with the same stage last year. That's always a bit dangerous but there was a 12 point improvement which seemed pretty significant.
I admittedly didn't anticipate us collapsing quite so pathetically. NQ would say that's because I have a short memory. It's not that, I just saw the way we were playing and there seemed to be a bit more about this lot.
Apparently not :(

[IBK]

From a personal perspective (that I suspect is shared by a number of Arsenal fans outside the online community), the last 3 games feel disillusioning because they have highlighted what I feel are clear shortcomings with the manager. I said on another thread that even when we were winning games, in the main a number of our victories felt somewhat lacking in conviction - but it also felt that there was a team cohesion and a game plan that represented progress.

What is clear now is that with a fully fit first team we are a marginal top four side, but we do not have a squad that can cope with any adversity. We also have a manager that is conservative to the point of handbreaking his own team, who seems unable to deviate from a rigid game plan - albeit that that game plan has been effective with all key players in place.

What we are seeing in this regard is nothing new. We saw it in spades last season before the new influx of players in the Summer - players seemingly unable to innovate/switch up when the game state required it - and Arteta's record of failure to come back after conceding the first goal is testimony to this inflexibility.

The other really worrying trend is Arteta's management of fringe players. He has time and time again refused to give back up players time on the pitch - and worse failed to nurture their confidence - meaning an 'eggs in one basket' approach that in hindsight has affected us badly now key players are injured. We have now seen how failure to manage his squad properly spells disaster even when we only have one game a week - which frankly bodes badly if we do manage to secure European football next season.

Funnily enough it is the above trends that I find myself resenting Arteta for - not the Aubameyang situation. One thing that the manager has clearly fostered is squad (or at least first team) unity - and if it were only the obvious risk of leaving us short in the striker department that was an issue I remain behind the principle of not signing a striker for the sake of it.

On the other hand, and trying to be positive amongst all the hand wringing, there are obvious mitigating factors here. Inconsistency is to be expected amongst what we need to remember is the youngest squad in the EPL. The manager has taken risks that appear to have blown up in his face, but this is not necessairly a reason to throw out the whole project. Top 3 aside - there is a complete lack of consistency in the chasing pack, and this speaks to a far more level playing field in the league, where there are almost no 'gimmes'. I am convinced that the realistic aim for the club at the beginning of the season was top 6, and if we get there then we will have achieved this expectation and i am prepared to see what we can do with another Summer of recruitment and a proper striker. I have written off top 4 - now lets see if we can stop the rot.

[KSE Comedy Club]

:haha:

Fair.

I mean, I was just comparing this season with the same stage last year. That's always a bit dangerous but there was a 12 point improvement which seemed pretty significant.
I admittedly didn't anticipate us collapsing quite so pathetically. NQ would say that's because I have a short memory. It's not that, I just saw the way we were playing and there seemed to be a bit more about this lot.
Apparently not :(

:d

I think it was fair as at the time the results were looking a bit more steady and consistent at the time.

[selassie]

From a personal perspective (that I suspect is shared by a number of Arsenal fans outside the online community), the last 3 games feel disillusioning because they have highlighted what I feel are clear shortcomings with the manager. I said on another thread that even when we were winning games, in the main a number of our victories felt somewhat lacking in conviction - but it also felt that there was a team cohesion and a game plan that represented progress.

What is clear now is that with a fully fit first team we are a marginal top four side, but we do not have a squad that can cope with any adversity. We also have a manager that is conservative to the point of handbreaking his own team, who seems unable to deviate from a rigid game plan - albeit that that game plan has been effective with all key players in place.

What we are seeing in this regard is nothing new. We saw it in spades last season before the new influx of players in the Summer - players seemingly unable to innovate/switch up when the game state required it - and Arteta's record of failure to come back after conceding the first goal is testimony to this inflexibility.

The other really worrying trend is Arteta's management of fringe players. He has time and time again refused to give back up players time on the pitch - and worse failed to nurture their confidence - meaning an 'eggs in one basket' approach that in hindsight has affected us badly now key players are injured. We have now seen how failure to manage his squad properly spells disaster even when we only have one game a week - which frankly bodes badly if we do manage to secure European football next season.

Funnily enough it is the above trends that I find myself resenting Arteta for - not the Aubameyang situation. One thing that the manager has clearly fostered is squad (or at least first team) unity - and if it were only the obvious risk of leaving us short in the striker department that was an issue I remain behind the principle of not signing a striker for the sake of it.

On the other hand, and trying to be positive amongst all the hand wringing, there are obvious mitigating factors here. Inconsistency is to be expected amongst what we need to remember is the youngest squad in the EPL. The manager has taken risks that appear to have blown up in his face, but this is not necessairly a reason to throw out the whole project. Top 3 aside - there is a complete lack of consistency in the chasing pack, and this speaks to a far more level playing field in the league, where there are almost no 'gimmes'. I am convinced that the realistic aim for the club at the beginning of the season was top 6, and if we get there then we will have achieved this expectation and i am prepared to see what we can do with another Summer of recruitment and a proper striker. I have written off top 4 - now lets see if we can stop the rot.

:gp:

The only bit I query is whilst the aim was top 6, realistically top 4 is / was very achievable given our competition or lack of it. Not only that but Arteta has absolutely failed, the past 3 performances and results have been a disaster and a lot goes back to Arteta.

I am personally giving Arteta until the end of the season, but I am leaning to him being given the boot to be honest.

[Bumble]

4th place back on... Artetas job is same until the next game

[LDG]

Why is it so black and white, depending game to game on how furious you are?

This is a long term thing. Massive setback if we don’t get CL, and we absolutely must have it. But if we don’t, sacking Arteta would put us back 3 years, not move us forward.

The long and short of this season is the January gamble. Do you strengthen and put pressure on the finances if we still fail, or do you leave the team facing fatigue or injury with your fingers crossed?

We chose the later, and after a good run of form, you have to expect a bad run when you lose key players and people get knackered. What matters now, is whether we can use this result as a recovery from a short dip, and whether we can utilose the lokes of Elneny and co to get us over the line

[selassie]

Why is it so black and white, depending game to game on how furious you are?

This is a long term thing. Massive setback if we don’t get CL, and we absolutely must have it. But if we don’t, sacking Arteta would put us back 3 years, not move us forward.

The long and short of this season is the January gamble. Do you strengthen and put pressure on the finances if we still fail, or do you leave the team facing fatigue or injury with your fingers crossed?

We chose the later, and after a good run of form, you have to expect a bad run when you lose key players and people get knackered. What matters now, is whether we can use this result as a recovery from a short dip, and whether we can utilose the lokes of Elneny and co to get us over the line

Let's hope we kick on now, I have a horrible feeling we won't be happy come tomorrow afternoon after the United game. They are welcoming back the likes of Ronaldo and Varane so will be pretty much close to full strength. United are very inconsistent, you could even call them shite, but I think tomorrow's game will be very difficult TBH, i'm expecting a loss.

[Mac76]

One thing's certain, Ronaldo will be wearing a t-shirt under his Moan U shirt with a slogan about his son and will be dying to score to dedicate the goal(s) to him :(

[Letters]

Why is it so black and white, depending game to game on how furious you are?
Are you new here? :lol:

I've always tried not to overreact to one off results. But I was ready to hop back on the Arteta Out bandwagon after 3 defeats in a row.
We are supposed to be in a Top 4 fight, Auba going in January was the right thing to do, he was trouble. But it left us very lightweight up front.
We were getting away with it for a while but losing 3 in a row really wasn't good enough. Two of those were winnable enough and especially that last one when Spurs had lost, it was the perfect opportunity to stamp our authority on it again and it was "same old Arsenal" as well flat on our stupid faces.
I thought that was that, Wednesday's result was a nice surprise and does put us back in it. So let's see where we go from here.
I don't think it's as black and white as "Top 4" or Arteta Out. But I'm expecting us to fight for it. If we miss out then so be it - the Top 3 are miles above us which only leaves one credible space and there are a few other sides fighting for that. I just want to feel like there's progress. For a while I was seeing that. Right now I'm not so sure. I think Arteta's going to be here next season come what may now, there's a big summer coming up - everyone knows we need a striker which means we're not going to get one cheap. I do see some good signs in this team, and having a young team costs you points. With the right additions in the summer we could push on. I think Arteta deserves a chance to do that but if we completely collapse again I'll be less sure about that. Always feels like 2 steps forward, 3 steps back with this lot.

[Marc Overmars]

Expectation ebbs and flows with every result, that’s just the nature of the sport. However considering Southampton got hit for 6 and lost to Burnley, either side of our result there, shows how careless it was from us. Brighton had not won in 6 games either until they done us over as well.

It isn’t 4th place or bust, but I get the feeling there’s also a passiveness at the idea of finishing 4th because it wasn’t necessarily the goal in August. If an opportunity presents itself you take the bloody thing because there’s no guarantee it’s coming again next season. There have been many occasions over the years where the bar has been low enough for us to do something unexpected and this is one of those seasons. It’s not black and white but wilting under the pressure is not a good look no matter how promising something might be too.

[Globalgunner]

These are exactly the same arguments being made this time last year and I guarantee we will be making the same this time next year IF Arteta stays. United have a new manager....with proven pedigree not some romantic former player with a seawave of goodwill behind him instead of actual chops. Will City or Pool lose form? I doubt it. Chelsea may even give Tuchel the heave ho given the epileptic nature of this season. Zidane is on sabbatical but may be open to persuasion by the right project. In the meantime over at Arsenal we are measuring progress with a Vernier caliper.

If we lose to both United and Spuds then what exactly is the purpose of our internship of Arteta. 7th this season and maybe 6th next season?. Progress is progress I guess.

TBH I was frankly shocked by the Chelsea game, but if we get good results against United and Spurs. I will have to concede we may be going somewhere

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think Arteta needs to go, but we don’t need to be taking lessons from Manchester United when it comes to the managerial role.

[Marc Overmars]

I understand the need for a long term plan but I also don’t think it’s a given that incremental “progress” will take us to where we want to be. Timing is everything and sometimes you need to grab an opportunity if it presents itself.

Emery finished 5th in his first season when we should have finished 4th, that was still better than Wengers final year so I guess we saw that as progress, then it all fell off a cliff 6 months later and took us 2 years to recover.

There were times with Wenger when we flirted with a title challenge only to look completely inept the following season. Things can change very quickly, especially as everyone has money now, everyone has the scouting etc. The top 2 are in a league of their own but for the rest of us it’s never been more competitive.

[Globalgunner]

So the question is. What is the purpose, the plan for this club beyond existing on the periphery of greatness. Are we ever going to compete. Do we even want to compete at the highest level. The current management of Arsenal is just stringing the fans along. The manager is the most important ingredient in any club. Arteta does not convince me at all

[Master Splinter]

It seems vanishingly unlikely we will lose 8 in a row

Letters' first :gp: since Coney was born.

[IBK]

I understand the need for a long term plan but I also don’t think it’s a given that incremental “progress” will take us to where we want to be. Timing is everything and sometimes you need to grab an opportunity if it presents itself.

Emery finished 5th in his first season when we should have finished 4th, that was still better than Wengers final year so I guess we saw that as progress, then it all fell off a cliff 6 months later and took us 2 years to recover.

There were times with Wenger when we flirted with a title challenge only to look completely inept the following season. Things can change very quickly, especially as everyone has money now, everyone has the scouting etc. The top 2 are in a league of their own but for the rest of us it’s never been more competitive.

I feel that there is an issue of context in the way Arteta is being judged. This is not to deny that there are question marks over his managerial capabilities, but while some argue that in Arteta the club is settling for mediocrity there is very much an alterantive way of looking at things.

First, who are we judging him alongside? Currently we are sitting in 4th place - behind clubs managed by 3 of the most successful and well regarded coaches in world football, and employed by clubs with either infinitely more resources than ours (at least until recently in Chelsea's case), or reaping the benefits of several years of inch perfect club and on pitch management and investment and sustained success in Liverpool's case. Are we really expecting that following years of turmoil and under-achievement Arsenal would attract a Klopp or a Guardiola? Take that expectation out of the equation, and our rookie manager has not done too badly over his less than 2 1/2 years in charge. If we want to compare 'like for like' with a similar sized club with similar resources to our then why not look at Conte for that lot down the road. Many would have looked at him as the 'track record' manager that we should be attracting at Arsenal but for all the hand wringing over our disappointing results Arteta is out performing Conte this far this season, even with one hand behind his back in the striker department.

Second, look at the pivot in the EPL towards younger, fresher managers rather than the traditional old guard. In many ways, Arsenal have been in the vanguard of this in terms of a traditional 'big club' making a bold move. Tactical flexibility; planning for the medium to long term; fresh ideas...this is what many clubs are now looking for, and for all Arteta's flaws, he brings these qualities to the table. When you look at how some of the 'bright young things' at other EPL clubs are crashing and burning this season in (as you point out) an era of massive league competition and a far more level playing field, and I think Arteta compares pretty favourably.

Third, what is consistently overlooked IMO is just how much a change in ethos/mentality was needed at Arsenal. For years we were a by word for stagnation - with players having it too easy, a lack of togetherness; lack of connection with the fans; short term expensive signings to chase short term aims of CL football. Much of this has improved dramatically at our club this season, and that is down to our manager. Say what you like about Arteta - his players remain behind him and bought into what he is trying to do, and for me this is a much better indication of his direction of travel than the often reductive and loaded opinions of pundits - armchair or otherwise.

Step outside our Arsenal bubble - that is inevitably driven by a certain sense of entitlement to be at the top table where we were previously - and I think we would find that fans of most top 10 clubs outside the top 3 would say that Arsenal are slowly getting it right under Arteta...and more importantly that we now undoubtedly have a solid platform from which to push on, for the first time in many years.

I am not an Arteta cheerleader as such, but I like to think I am objective enough to balance the tangible improvements that he has brought to our team and the club more generally with his more obvious mistakes. And I certainly feel that from where we are, seeing whether the progress that we have made this season under Arteta can be built upon for next season is a far better option than rolling the dice again with another manager.

[Letters]

Letters' first :gp: since Coney was born.

<_<

[Letters]

This time last year we were:

P29 W12 D6 L11 F40 A32 Pts42

At this stage. Now we are:

P29 W17 D3 L9 F44 A34 Pts54

I'd suggest that's a pretty clear improvement so far. We only need 7 more points to get the same points as we finished on last year, it seems pretty clear there's going to be improvement this year.
It might not be enough for top 4 but overall I'm seeing positive signs in the team. Last night was a bad day at the office, we have reacted well after other setbacks, if we do again then I don't think we'll be far away from top 4 this year.
I don't think anyone thinks we're the finished product but for all my "Arteta out" wobbles this season I think he's taking us in the right direction and has earned the right to try and continue that.
:gp:

Just to update this. At this stage last year we were:

P33 W13 D7 L13 F44 A37 GD7 Pts46

Now it's:

P33 W19 D3 L11 F52 A40 GD12 Pts60

So that's 14 points improvement. Progress :bow:
NOTE: We did win our last 5 games last year, we are unlikely to this year. But it's unlikely we'll finish with less points this year than we did last.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Fewer

[Letters]

Fewer

:haha:

Dammit!

:getcoat:

[LDG]

:haha:

Dammit!

:getcoat:

:pal:

[Niall_Quinn]

Fewer

:gp:

[KSE Comedy Club]

'Objection!

Call for heresay'

[selassie]

Are we all back in love with Mickey now we are back in 4th place? :d

[Globalgunner]

Are we all back in love with Mickey now we are back in 4th place? :d

Lets see what happens when we play the Spuds.Ive shifted from the "Get this fker out" column to. Give him till end of May, camp

[Marc Overmars]

No love yet but if he can finish 4th without a decent striker then fair play.

I think if we beat West Ham this weekend we’ve got one hand on the 4th place cup. Football isn’t played on paper (as our 3 consecutive defeats show) but the next game week sees us play Leeds at home while Spurs are at Anfield. We could be in an extremely strong position before the NLD.

West Ham would be a huge 3 points if we can get them.

[selassie]

Lets see what happens when we play the Spuds.Ive shifted from the "Get this fker out" column to. Give him till end of May, camp

Aye, me too.

[selassie]

Yeah Sundays game is massive. A win at West Ham would be huge.

[Xhaka Can’t]

West Han coming off their biggest game in years should hopefully work in our favour.

[LDG]

There is a clear difference between what we had when Wenger left and what we have now.

Teams around us change as we do, therefore
Looking at where we are now (statistically) makes fuck all difference and has no relevance.

All you can do is look at the team and judge whether or not the deficiencies that plagued us have been improved on (not vamquished) and whether the manager has had support (financially and unilaterally) to make best of what he can.

For me, he has given the team a shape, removed many of the rotten parts, and seemingly garnered support from his players from within.

If you look at the table, you’re looking at Guardiola, Klopp, Tuchel, Arteta, Cunte as the top five managers of the top five teams. Would you take any of those underneath? And I mean seriously? And at leat two of the managers in that top five have had inexhaustible wealth chucked at the team.

For me, Klopp is in a league of his own. Elsewhere, you will find it hard to get a manager who will compete with their nouse AND financial backing.

We can be so sanctimonious and privileged at times. I for one am just happy we have a team that wants to win, even if they dont.

[LDG]

Ps. I’m not in the manager swap club unless its absolutely necessary. Just look at the spuffs and what they’ve benefited from it. Emery was not the right person, and never should have been put in charge.

[Marc Overmars]

One thing you have to give Arteta is that he’s got everyone playing for him and he’s also got the fans liking the team again. It shouldn’t be understated just how big the disconnect was and had been for years even going back to Wenger’s final seasons.

We had too many players here on inflated deals using Arsenal as easy street. Thankfully that’s in the process of changing with more stringent recruitment and standards.

[Letters]

Teams around us change as we do, therefore
Looking at where we are now (statistically) makes fuck all difference and has no relevance.
Obviously I disagree.
Yes, teams change, but I don't think the overall quality of the league changes that much from year to year.
I agree with the things you mention about deficiencies, but if the changes there don't yield better results then so what?


We can be so sanctimonious and privileged at times. I for one am just happy we have a team that wants to win, even if they dont.
:good:

Was talking to a mate about this last night - Liverpool fan, they're having their day in the sun.
I was saying how back in the day when Wenger was at his pomp dad and me always knew that it wouldn't last forever. Those years were the outliers, not now.
We have no divine right to be up there, for many parts of our history we haven't been. And success is rarely instant in football.
I did nearly "lose it" with Arteta after the 3 straight wins. It seemed like "same old Arsenal". But the last couple of games have put us right back in it. Let's hope we can finish the job. I'll try not to lose my head if we don't as there does seem to have been clear progress since last year. Arteta is earning the right to try and continue that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ps. I’m not in the manager swap club unless its absolutely necessary. Just look at the spuffs and what they’ve benefited from it. Emery was not the right person, and never should have been put in charge.

Same here. Managers these days are almost irrelevant. 99.999999999999999% is about money and the rest is about football and the players and their commitment to the fans. The TV companies wax lyrical about the latter, except on transfer day when they pull their nickers down and finger themselves on live TV.

Klopp couldn't do a damn thing at Arsenal because he wouldn't have the lunatic sums he's been playing with. He wouldn't come here anyway, for that very reason.

If you look at the clubs above us, but use a different measure, you'll see they all spunk cash as if the world is ending tomorrow. Unfortunately it doesn't get more complex than that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Obviously I disagree.
Yes, teams change, but I don't think the overall quality of the league changes that much from year to year.
I agree with the things you mention about deficiencies, but if the changes there don't yield better results then so what?


:good:

Was talking to a mate about this last night - Liverpool fan, they're having their day in the sun.
I was saying how back in the day when Wenger was at his pomp dad and me always knew that it wouldn't last forever. Those years were the outliers, not now.
We have no divine right to be up there, for many parts of our history we haven't been. And success is rarely instant in football.
I did nearly "lose it" with Arteta after the 3 straight wins. It seemed like "same old Arsenal". But the last couple of games have put us right back in it. Let's hope we can finish the job. I'll try not to lose my head if we don't as there does seem to have been clear progress since last year. Arteta is earning the right to try and continue that.

This "divine right" bullshit is the biggest red herring of all. Nobody has a divine right, that's true. But it never had anything to do with that anyway. The spoils go to those who turn up most. That's what luck is, in reality. When you are a fucking waster, like Arsenal FC, you can moan all you want about inches but the lack of dedication is genuinely measured in miles. The Top Four Mega Trophy makes me laugh my arse off. This bunch of tossers might actually qualify for a tournament they literally stand ZERO percent chance of winning - or even competing. It's a sad joke. Being played on the fans. Who should know better by now.

[Globalgunner]

This "divine right" bullshit is the biggest red herring of all. Nobody has a divine right, that's true. But it never had anything to do with that anyway. The spoils go to those who turn up most. That's what luck is, in reality. When you are a fucking waster, like Arsenal FC, you can moan all you want about inches but the lack of dedication is genuinely measured in miles. The Top Four Mega Trophy makes me laugh my arse off. This bunch of tossers might actually qualify for a tournament they literally stand ZERO percent chance of winning - or even competing. It's a sad joke. Being played on the fans. Who should know better by now.

Exactly right. If you dont try and compete you will never compete. There is no such thing as "divine right" Pool were in the wilderness for decades but never gave up the desire to be at the very top. They changed many things, managers, players and even ownership until they found the right combination. The hunger never left them, they won Europa titles when we were still bragging about being perpetual top 4. Manchester United always believe that the PL title is divinely theirs and anyone else holding it is effectively handling stolen goods. That is a good egotism, the type that should drive all major sports franchises. At Arsenal we have lost any desire to be the absolute best. Our Owner Kroenke even stated it as a core business philosophy. We are simply delighted to be mentioned in dispatches. Not hungry to be on the main page. No surprises that Letters as usual is making excuses for mediocrity he campaigned for Wengers last 15 years as the best anyone on the planet could do.

We wasted at least 10 years on that French bloke, missing out on managers who could really drive this club forward. This mediocrity has seeped into the fanbase too. We swallowed Chelsea winning half a dozen leagues and 2 CL while we watched and dismissed it as "beneath us". It will likely take Spuds winning the CL before us (They will if Conte is properly backed) for the animal to awaken in the followership because sure as hell Kroenke wont give a shit. Our philosophy is to somehow stumble into glory, not strategize for it, hence hiring a pure novice and invoking all the deities on the planet to sprinkle stardust on him and fans to back him.

Ive decide to wait and see with Arteta because he seems to stumble from a shambles to miracle worker in the space of like 3 weeks in a continuous loop cycle all season. We have only beaten a top 3 team once all year and if you cant beat them, you will never join them. If Conte stays and they beat us to top 4, we will fall behind them again next season for sure. United wont allow themselves to continue failing and the top 3 will remain the top 3. So where does that leave us?

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger is partly to blame for conditioning the club to believe top 4 is the height of success, however when you’re stuck with ownership who legitimately don’t care if Arsenal win another trophy or not as long as the club is profitable, it’s not surprising the fans have fallen into their own malaise.

[Letters]

No surprises that Letters as usual is making excuses for mediocrity
:yawn:

Your straw manning is tiresome.

I want us to be at the top of the footballing tree, of course I do.
But given that last season we were bumbling around in mid table and didn’t even qualify for Europe, some realism is needed about what we could achieve this season. Anyone expecting a title challenge was deluded and that isn’t the criteria by which anyone should judge any Arsenal manager this season. No manager could have taken over Arsenal last summer and won us the title. The question is whether we are making progress under Arteta and whether we are doing so quickly enough. We need to see how this season ends but so far it seems like the answer to the first question is yes. The second question will depend on individual expectations but given the current footballing landscape I’d say yes IF we finish the season strongly.

Like it or not (not), Top 4 is a stepping stone and therefore important. It should not be the limit of our ambitions and Wenger’s comparison with a trophy was unhelpful. But given where we were last season it would be a big step forwards. We sack Arteta when we stop making progress under him. I’m not convinced he’s the man to challenge Klopp or Pep, but he’s earning the right to try, for now.
If we collapse again then my opinion about that will change.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Letters.... I am not sure why your aren't a lawyer or something like that.

First of all you say this




I want us to be at the top of the footballing tree, of course I do.

Self explanatory, everyone understands what being at the TOP means. Then you say this........

We sack Arteta when we stop making progress under him. I’m not convinced he’s the man to challenge Klopp or Pep, but he’s earning the right to try, for now.

So if he can't challenge Klop or Pep who are on top of the foodchain, have been for the past 6 years and are both going nowhere, how exactly is he going to achieve your "dream"??

Its things and statements like this that have Globalgunner and others digging out your past and remembering how you were an active "enabler" during the dark days of AW, and it still remains a fact that only the disastrous Kronke ownership supersedes the damage the "enablers" have caused this club!!

Look it's simple, we either believe in the Arteta project or not, and if you don't believe he is the man to get us to the top, isn't it better to go and look for the man that will do it than doing another 10 years in purgatory. It's the AW argument all over again. I remember clearly how you would say then "at least we are always challenging under Wenger". Then it changed to we are always in the CL and top 4 trophy . Then when he finally fell out as long predicted, you then reluctantly said he might have to go.... what is wrong with being clear from the beginning stating what you want and what you can't stand in a competitive sport? No one's going to shoot you if you want Arteta out because you don't believe he's the best, he ends up staying proving you wrong and winning the trophies ... thats just life mate, its not a crime to be wrong (and funnily no obvious awards are being given for you being right in this situation or Zim would be smiling where ever he is).

But it's terrible to sit on the fence in life (a la Ukraine) and especially in sport. If most Liverpool fans were like you they'd still have Rafa there, thinking they couldn't do better and both Brendan and Klopp quickly disproved that notion.

Anyway I agree with Letters in one thing, it been 3 years and Arteta still hasn't shown me any evidence he has what it takes to win the league (I wasn't interested in top 4 trophies under AW, not interested in it now), so I still want him out ASAP...simple and easy. I know what I want and what competitive sport is about. End of.

[Letters]

So if he can't challenge Klop or Pep who are on top of the foodchain, have been for the past 6 years and are both going nowhere, how exactly is he going to achieve your "dream"??
I don't know if he can. Gut feeling says not, but IMO he's earning the right to try.
It feels like there is clear progress from last season. We already have more points than we finished on last year. Last season we were bumbling around in mid table, this year we are in the conversation for Top 4. That should not be our ultimate goal and I agree Wenger made too much of it, but like it or not it is an important step towards the top in the modern game. It feels like the players are buying in to what Arteta is trying to achieve. Changing manager now feels like it would set us back, not push us forwards. There's no guarantee that changing managers would bring success either, Emery was in theory a far more accomplished manager than Arteta and that didn't work out for us


I remember clearly how you would say then "at least we are always challenging under Wenger". Then it changed to we are always in the CL and top 4 trophy . Then when he finally fell out as long predicted, you then reluctantly said he might have to go
The "long predicted" is telling there. People were saying 15 years ago that Wenger would take us in to mid table or worse. The fact it happened 10 years after they predicted it doesn't really give them the right to punch the air and hand out "told you so's". It's like predicting a 6 on a dice, rolling 10 times, finally getting a 6 and saying "see?!". But fine, I'm happy to concede that I kept the faith with Wenger longer than I should have. But that's the good thing about Emery or Arteta or any future Arsenal manager. They're not Wenger, they don't have that legacy and baggage. When it became clear Emery wasn't working we got rid. If it becomes clear that Arteta isn't then we should do the same.
I just don't think we should pre-emptively do so. He's taking us in the right direction, IMO. I'm not sure how far he can take us, but I'm willing to give him a chance to try.


Anyway I agree with Letters in one thing, it been 3 years and Arteta still hasn't shown me any evidence he has what it takes to win the league.
What evidence would you have expected to see, given how things were when he took over? I mean, there was a lot of shit to sort out. For me, he's been doing that. He's cleared out some dead wood, he's sorted out the defence, there's more shape to the team, there's some good young players who look hungry. Did you see the way we moved the ball forward yesterday? At times it was superb, you put a top striker in this team - it's no secret that's what we are missing - and we'd be winning games more comfortably rather than the nervy affairs we've been seeing a lot this season. But the ability to get scrappy wins is an important one and it's a nice one we seem to have developed.

TL;DR - I reckon changing manager now would set us back, not push us forward.

[selassie]

I admit I have conflicting opinions of Arteta, but right now I am literally just enjoying each game as they come. I am emotionally invested in us securing CL for the first time in god knows how long.

If we don't finish in the top 4 this season it will be a big disappointment, even though we were not expected to at the start of the season, we have got ourselves into a very good position now with only a handful of games left. Yes we currently have a number of injuries, and you could argue that the lack of cover or squad depth is an issue created by Arteta, but the players are doing well at the moment, it is all we can ask of them, to win games.

Progress has been made this season even if our recent back to back losing streak reminded us all that this team is still very much a "work in progress"

Arteta is doing a decent enough job this season given that our expectations and previous two league finishes were 8th. He has started the rebuild of the squad and let's be honest he is doing a decent enough job of it. He has brought in or given opportunities to young hungry players of a good standard, they all seem to have decent character too.

Long term I don't believe Arteta will bridge the gap between us and the top 2, but I can't think of a manager outside of those who manage the current top 2 who could. Any progress made requires continued significant investment and internal improvement of the current squad. Not just for us, I think Chelsea, Spurs and Man United fall into this bracket too.

For me, if we can establish ourselves as a consistent top 4 team, continue to develop our style with a focus on young players then I'll be happy. It would be nice to make good progress in Europe too, ideally CL. I don't think any of us can ask for any more than that right now and if Arteta delivers that over the next few years then he'll be doing a good job.

[selassie]

Same here. Managers these days are almost irrelevant. 99.999999999999999% is about money and the rest is about football and the players and their commitment to the fans. The TV companies wax lyrical about the latter, except on transfer day when they pull their nickers down and finger themselves on live TV.

Klopp couldn't do a damn thing at Arsenal because he wouldn't have the lunatic sums he's been playing with. He wouldn't come here anyway, for that very reason.

If you look at the clubs above us, but use a different measure, you'll see they all spunk cash as if the world is ending tomorrow. Unfortunately it doesn't get more complex than that.

This is not strictly true. Klopp took over a struggling Liverpool team who were in pretty much a similar position to us prior to this season. He then went about gutting the squad by buying at the time largely unfancied but high potential players from prem clubs or in the european market. Liverpool only really started to turn it on once they took Barca to the cleaners with the Coutinho fee and invested that in Van Dijk & Allison. Let's not forget none of these players were world class before they joined Liverpool. Klopp moulded that team / squad into his own and pretty much improved every single player.

It's only really been in recent times since there recent success have they gone into the market and spent relatively big on players to compete with their current XI

Klopp is basically doing what Wenger did when he joined us all those years ago with the exception of winning CL which we didn't manage to do.

I guess the point i am making is that if you get your recruitment right, have a good plan and are able to improve your internal solutions then you will improve, I am not saying to the extent where you challenge for titles but any improvement right now for us is a good thing.

Poch improved the Spuds not that long ago, for a few seasons they were credible challengers. Though at the time, there wasn't a defined top 2 so the competition was a lot more balanced.

I wouldn't be against us improving to the extent where we are geniunely relevant in PL as a challenging team.

[Marc Overmars]

Never been a huge Arteta fan because the progress has been a little too shrouded in pain at times, however if he can deliver 4th without a decent striker and injuries in key areas, then you have to say that would be an excellent return that’s above expectation. This summer will be critical in terms of bulking out the squad with the quality needed because we’ll have more games next year and not anywhere near the same amount of preparation time as we’ve enjoyed this year.

Being able to offer CL football will make a big difference to our recruitment (and existing contracts) so we have to grab it now the opportunity has presented itself. The top 4 is a lot more interchangeable than it used to be when we were there every season, there’s no guarantees we’ll be there again next year. So at this stage now it would be a mega disappointment to miss out on this golden opportunity because you feel this squad is only a sprinkling of quality away from really taking off.

Leicester missed out 2 seasons running on the final day when they had quite a promising team and now that ship has sailed for them.

Whatever happens though, I think it’s fair to say Arteta has earned the right to see out this job. Assuming things won’t turn to absolute shit next year that is.

[Letters]

Obviously I want us to finish Top 4 but I do fear for us if we do.
We are not equipped for the CL, we don’t have the quality or the squad depth. It has to be acknowledged that if we do finish Top 4 then the lack of European football and going out of the FA Cup early are factors. Big summer coming up.

[Mac76]

Obviously I want us to finish Top 4 but I do fear for us if we do.
We are not equipped for the CL, we don’t have the quality or the squad depth. It has to be acknowledged that if we do finish Top 4 then the lack of European football and going out of the FA Cup early are factors. Big summer coming up.

even if we fail badly in the CL first time round, that ought to then show Kroenke what's needed for us to really compete

[Globalgunner]

Letters unfortunately is a man with scant imagination. He can only see whats already in front of him and even then with binoculars. If we cannot challenge for the CL while being in it, how will we ever challenge for it from the outside. Has anyone seen a CL challenging team somewhere in the mid league table. Many a CL champion has not been last years domestic league champion but they have always been 2nd or 3rd, except maybe Tottenham back then, I guess.

Look at Villareal with our erstwhile manager. They have a team made of players that do not shout star quality. Im sure no one wants us buying any current Villareal player as a difference maker but see what they are doing. They ARE challenging. Ive never been an Arteta fan. I cant see what the fuss is about but here we are on the cusp of 4th. If we make it. Im all for keeping him, but we will need a step change in the quality of our midfield and forwards. Xhaka and Elneny will not move the needle for us.

I still remind everyone that Zidane is available twiddling his thumbs. A proactive owner would be trying to get him before Chelsea or some other club or National team do. His pedigree is beyond doubt. If Arteta loses out and he stays another season then that will effectively been another 4 years down the drain and another classy manager that we have let go by. Dont say he wont come here...We havent asked him yet have we?

[Chippy]

Obviously I want us to finish Top 4 but I do fear for us if we do.
We are not equipped for the CL, we don’t have the quality or the squad depth. It has to be acknowledged that if we do finish Top 4 then the lack of European football and going out of the FA Cup early are factors. Big summer coming up.

I agree, partially.
However, now we are in the position we are, I would be absolutely gutted if the Spuds get it.
I have said it before, it's the hope that kills you.

[IBK]

Letters unfortunately is a man with scant imagination. He can only see whats already in front of him and even then with binoculars. If we cannot challenge for the CL while being in it, how will we ever challenge for it from the outside. Has anyone seen a CL challenging team somewhere in the mid league table. Many a CL champion has not been last years domestic league champion but they have always been 2nd or 3rd, except maybe Tottenham back then, I guess.

Look at Villareal with our erstwhile manager. They have a team made of players that do not shout star quality. Im sure no one wants us buying any current Villareal player as a difference maker but see what they are doing. They ARE challenging. Ive never been an Arteta fan. I cant see what the fuss is about but here we are on the cusp of 4th. If we make it. Im all for keeping him, but we will need a step change in the quality of our midfield and forwards. Xhaka and Elneny will not move the needle for us.

I still remind everyone that Zidane is available twiddling his thumbs. A proactive owner would be trying to get him before Chelsea or some other club or National team do. His pedigree is beyond doubt. If Arteta loses out and he stays another season then that will effectively been another 4 years down the drain and another classy manager that we have let go by. Dont say he wont come here...We havent asked him yet have we?

I'd say give us time. Some excellent posts above from LDG; MO and Selassie all reference similar, and true issues here - and these are (1) that we are not in a bubble; and (2) we need to be realistic about where we have been, and where we are as a club in terms of competing with the best teams around - and let's face it, above us in the league we have 2 of the best teams and managers in world football, and the curernt CL champions. There's a massive difference between ambition in a general sense and having the means to get there. There's also a need to understand that signing even the best percieved manager is no guarantee of success. Reaching the top requires a great manager, yes, but there are a myriad of factors that combine to produce success. You mention Zidane. He has been phenonenally successful but Real Madrid could not be much more different to Arsenal. Would success in a different league and with a team that regularly included Galacticos translate to an Arenal without the sheer draw; spending power and profile of Real Madrid? Maybe - but equally it could be a disaster - especially with a manager who doesn't speak English and would hardly be regarded as one likely to be suited to long term development.

Part of the mess that Arsenal have been in since the last years of Wenger has been caused by chasing short term success. The EPL is littered with examples of clubs seeing illustrious managers as holy grails to take them to glory, but in reality it rarely works like this. You have to get the basics right, and whether or not Arteta turns out to be the manager to get us back to competing with the best domestically and in Europe, there is clear evidence that in his 2 1/2 years he has taken us from a bit of a basket case to a club with far better foundations in terms of ethos; player profiles; togetherness (both players and fans) and (more recently) a clear and successful transfer policy. If we are to 'step up' again in terms of a manager, these things are essential as a foundation to build on. What's more it would be essential to find a manager who will do so - rather than disrupting our club again with a different approach.

Essentially, this is what many Gooners are saying. Arteta has done enough at this point to have gone some way to getting the club back on track, and there is potential for further progress under him. Progress may not seem tranformational but the problem with being impatient for success is that its too easy to compare our team with much better established competitors, and take examples of 'one offs' elsewhere as indications of what could be achieved at Arsenal. Emery and Villareal are made in heaven for each other, but that is such an outlier. In any event, if you want to make a more realistic comparison with our ex manager, he may have won the Europa league, but their league position is similar to what Arteta has achieved at Arsenal and Arteta has also won a Cup with us.

Klopp is another manager who has proven an extraordinarily good fit for Liverpool, but he guided then to 8th; 4th and 4th in his first 3 seasons in years where arguably the competition was not as strong in the EPL as now. What's more he brought infinitely more experience to the table than our rookie manager, who is inevitably learning on the job and in this context is achieving a lot with us.

I'd say that Arteta has bought himself the right to be trusted to push on from here. He may do so, he may not, but as you say we need to keep him to find out.

[Marc Overmars]

Arteta has signed a new deal till 24/25.

https://www.arsenal.com/news/congratulations-mikel-and-jonas

[WMUG]

Little bit after November then :lol:

[Master Splinter]

https://c.tenor.com/jobGBDjhbvwAAAAC/arteta-arsenal.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcreteGrouchyAtlanticbluetang-max-1mb.gif

[IBK]

Arteta has signed a new deal till 24/25.

https://www.arsenal.com/news/congratulations-mikel-and-jonas

This is good news. While we all know that the contract will be torn up if we tank - and a manager's contract is never locked in in this respect - this provides stability and for the players in particular shows that the manager is fully invested in them and his project, and backed by the owners. This can only be a good thing for our club.

[I am invisible]

This is good news. While we all know that the contract will be torn up if we tank - and a manager's contract is never locked in in this respect - this provides stability and for the players in particular shows that the manager is fully invested in them and his project, and backed by the owners. This can only be a good thing for our club.

Yeah, exactly - in practical terms it doesn't really change much other than the amount of compensation the owners would have to pay Arteta if they fire him before 2025, but it will settle the squad and let everyone know where they stand going into next season: anyone fully committed will know they've done a good job; and if anyone was having any dark thoughts about downing tools and trying to kneecap the manager before his contract negotiations, well that won't work now - see the season out with max effort or you're dead!

It also lets us crack on with our summer plans without any indecision or delays - we've already done the clearance in January so there's no reason why we can't start making calls immediately.

[I am invisible]

The timing of the announcement isn't lost on me either, just a few days after we secured at least a Europa League spot for next season - kind of suggests that we've already met our target for the season, with 4 games to spare, and that anything beyond this (i.e. CL) is a bonus that puts us ahead of schedule.

[IBK]

Two very good posts mate. I like in particular the effect it will have on those who have too little patience for this project. It won't stop all negative reaction if we don't make top 4, or summer signings aren't the A* that last Summer deserves, but it will tamp this down, and that has to be a very good thing, building on the far healthier togetherness that is growing at our club. The other thing I like is that we are seeing much better focus on the marginal gains that can help build success - from the 'shithousery' that our players seem prepared to action on the pitch to the clear focus on players having personalities (step up Aaron Ramsdale and Rob Holding). As we go into squeaky bum time this season, and face a massive Summer of recruitment, the message that Arteta's (and Jonas Eidevall's) new contracts represents falls squarely into this category.

[Chippy]

The timing of the announcement isn't lost on me either, just a few days after we secured at least a Europa League spot for next season - kind of suggests that we've already met our target for the season, with 4 games to spare, and that anything beyond this (i.e. CL) is a bonus that puts us ahead of schedule.

Good post.
I honestly don't think we will get fourth, but we would have taken the Europa League when we were bottom of the table. Avoiding the Europa Conference League is a big plus.

[Marc Overmars]

All about stability and that’s a good thing. Managers contracts don’t really mean as much as a players does. If it goes tits up next year then it won’t be difficult to move him on, long gone are the days when Wenger was unsackable.

[I am invisible]

Good post.
I honestly don't think we will get fourth, but we would have taken the Europa League when we were bottom of the table. Avoiding the Europa Conference League is a big plus.
The thing is, it’s not just about where we finish and how we’re progressing on the pitch - that’s just half of it.

Just think back to the state the club was in when Arteta took over: no vision or leadership anywhere, chaos at executive level, culture in the toilet, relationship with the fans in the toilet, atmosphere at the ground in the toilet, outdated coaching methods, untrained, criminally unfit players who had just tanked two managers (three if you included Arsene) and were treating the place as their private social club, wage bill and contracts out of control, a bloated, unscientific scouting network who’s only purpose was to get Arsene what he wanted (and that had since been made completely redundant by Raul’s contacts book), Stat DNA there just sitting there ignored and unused (we own that ffs!), no joined-up thinking between the academy and the first team, etc. The list of problems was endless.

Now look at where we are now - all of that has been addressed, and it’s been done during a global pandemic no less! It’s been painful at times, but we really have turned the tanker over these last couple of years and, imo, Arteta has been the driving force behind most of the changes we’ve seen. It certainly hasn’t come from Josh or Vinnai or Edu - the first of those two are willing, but clueless and, whilst Edu seems capable, I don’t think he has the sheer force of personality needed to have made it happen (if you point him at a task then he’ll get the job done, but he looks easily led and can easily become part of the problem when you have someone like Raul doing the pointing). Honestly, I’ve been blown away by the turnaround - absolutely blown away.

As always the big question you need to ask when judging any manager is: will he leave the club in a better state than he found it? And that has to be a resounding ‘yes’ for Arteta. You might not rate what he’s been doing in the pitch, but whoever comes after him will walk into a well-oiled machine with no fires to put out and nothing to worry about other than coaching the first team. For me, the Arteta appointment has already been hugely worthwhile.

[Chippy]

The thing is, it’s not just about where we finish and how we’re progressing on the pitch - that’s just half of it.

Just think back to the state the club was in when Arteta took over: no vision or leadership anywhere, chaos at executive level, culture in the toilet, relationship with the fans in the toilet, atmosphere at the ground in the toilet, outdated coaching methods, untrained, criminally unfit players who had just tanked two managers (three if you included Arsene) and were treating the place as their private social club, wage bill and contracts out of control, a bloated, unscientific scouting network who’s only purpose was to get Arsene what he wanted (and that had since been made completely redundant by Raul’s contacts book), Stat DNA there just sitting there ignored and unused (we own that ffs!), no joined-up thinking between the academy and the first team, etc. The list of problems was endless.

Now look at where we are now - all of that has been addressed, and it’s been done during a global pandemic no less! It’s been painful at times, but we really have turned the tanker over these last couple of years and, imo, Arteta has been the driving force behind allot the changes we’ve seen. It certainly hasn’t come from Josh or Vinnai or Edu - the first of those two are willing, but clueless and, whilst Edu seems capable, I don’t think he has the sheer force of personality needed to have made it happen (if you point him at a task then he’ll get the job done, but he looks easily led and can easily become part of the problem when you have someone like Raul doing the pointing). Honestly, I’ve been blown away by the turnaround - absolutely blown away.

As always the big question you need to ask when judging any manager is: will he leave the club in a better state than he found it? And that has to be a resounding ‘yes’ for Arteta. You might not rate what he’s been doing in the pitch, but whoever comes after him will walk into a well-oiled machine with no fires to put out and nothing to worry about other than coaching the first team. For me, the Arteta appointment has already been a hugely worthwhile.

Certainly agree with most of that.

[Mac76]

The thing is, it’s not just about where we finish and how we’re progressing on the pitch - that’s just half of it.

Just think back to the state the club was in when Arteta took over: no vision or leadership anywhere, chaos at executive level, culture in the toilet, relationship with the fans in the toilet, atmosphere at the ground in the toilet, outdated coaching methods, untrained, criminally unfit players who had just tanked two managers (three if you included Arsene) and were treating the place as their private social club, wage bill and contracts out of control, a bloated, unscientific scouting network who’s only purpose was to get Arsene what he wanted (and that had since been made completely redundant by Raul’s contacts book), Stat DNA there just sitting there ignored and unused (we own that ffs!), no joined-up thinking between the academy and the first team, etc. The list of problems was endless.

Now look at where we are now - all of that has been addressed, and it’s been done during a global pandemic no less! It’s been painful at times, but we really have turned the tanker over these last couple of years and, imo, Arteta has been the driving force behind allot the changes we’ve seen. It certainly hasn’t come from Josh or Vinnai or Edu - the first of those two are willing, but clueless and, whilst Edu seems capable, I don’t think he has the sheer force of personality needed to have made it happen (if you point him at a task then he’ll get the job done, but he looks easily led and can easily become part of the problem when you have someone like Raul doing the pointing). Honestly, I’ve been blown away by the turnaround - absolutely blown away.

As always the big question you need to ask when judging any manager is: will he leave the club in a better state than he found it? And that has to be a resounding ‘yes’ for Arteta. You might not rate what he’s been doing in the pitch, but whoever comes after him will walk into a well-oiled machine with no fires to put out and nothing to worry about other than coaching the first team. For me, the Arteta appointment has already been a hugely worthwhile.

...a hugely worthwhile what? :shrug:

[IBK]

The thing is, it’s not just about where we finish and how we’re progressing on the pitch - that’s just half of it.

Just think back to the state the club was in when Arteta took over: no vision or leadership anywhere, chaos at executive level, culture in the toilet, relationship with the fans in the toilet, atmosphere at the ground in the toilet, outdated coaching methods, untrained, criminally unfit players who had just tanked two managers (three if you included Arsene) and were treating the place as their private social club, wage bill and contracts out of control, a bloated, unscientific scouting network who’s only purpose was to get Arsene what he wanted (and that had since been made completely redundant by Raul’s contacts book), Stat DNA there just sitting there ignored and unused (we own that ffs!), no joined-up thinking between the academy and the first team, etc. The list of problems was endless.

Now look at where we are now - all of that has been addressed, and it’s been done during a global pandemic no less! It’s been painful at times, but we really have turned the tanker over these last couple of years and, imo, Arteta has been the driving force behind allot the changes we’ve seen. It certainly hasn’t come from Josh or Vinnai or Edu - the first of those two are willing, but clueless and, whilst Edu seems capable, I don’t think he has the sheer force of personality needed to have made it happen (if you point him at a task then he’ll get the job done, but he looks easily led and can easily become part of the problem when you have someone like Raul doing the pointing). Honestly, I’ve been blown away by the turnaround - absolutely blown away.

As always the big question you need to ask when judging any manager is: will he leave the club in a better state than he found it? And that has to be a resounding ‘yes’ for Arteta. You might not rate what he’s been doing in the pitch, but whoever comes after him will walk into a well-oiled machine with no fires to put out and nothing to worry about other than coaching the first team. For me, the Arteta appointment has already been a hugely worthwhile.

:gp:

[Globalgunner]

The thing is, it’s not just about where we finish and how we’re progressing on the pitch - that’s just half of it.

Just think back to the state the club was in when Arteta took over: no vision or leadership anywhere, chaos at executive level, culture in the toilet, relationship with the fans in the toilet, atmosphere at the ground in the toilet, outdated coaching methods, untrained, criminally unfit players who had just tanked two managers (three if you included Arsene) and were treating the place as their private social club, wage bill and contracts out of control, a bloated, unscientific scouting network who’s only purpose was to get Arsene what he wanted (and that had since been made completely redundant by Raul’s contacts book), Stat DNA there just sitting there ignored and unused (we own that ffs!), no joined-up thinking between the academy and the first team, etc. The list of problems was endless.

Now look at where we are now - all of that has been addressed, and it’s been done during a global pandemic no less! It’s been painful at times, but we really have turned the tanker over these last couple of years and, imo, Arteta has been the driving force behind most of the changes we’ve seen. It certainly hasn’t come from Josh or Vinnai or Edu - the first of those two are willing, but clueless and, whilst Edu seems capable, I don’t think he has the sheer force of personality needed to have made it happen (if you point him at a task then he’ll get the job done, but he looks easily led and can easily become part of the problem when you have someone like Raul doing the pointing). Honestly, I’ve been blown away by the turnaround - absolutely blown away.

As always the big question you need to ask when judging any manager is: will he leave the club in a better state than he found it? And that has to be a resounding ‘yes’ for Arteta. You might not rate what he’s been doing in the pitch, but whoever comes after him will walk into a well-oiled machine with no fires to put out and nothing to worry about other than coaching the first team. For me, the Arteta appointment has already been hugely worthwhile.

A long dose of revisionism and altered reality. Arteta took over a team that finished 5th missing 4th by 1 point and had played in the Europa final. This with some really dogshite players filling our ranks. He ended 2 seasons in 8th with better players. If he ends up behind the Spuds this season then he will likely end up behind both them and United next season. Just 3 weeks ago we were lamenting another dreadful 3 loss sequence.

Arteta is the new Wenger. Too shit for us to admit so we instead make pretend about succeeding downward.

BTW. Why do some think the global pandemic uniquely affected only Arsenal. I'd like to know really.

[Marc Overmars]

One thing Arteta hasn’t given this team are some powers of recovery. We’ve only gained 4 points from a losing position all season and lost almost a third of our games. Psychologically it seems to destroy this team if they concede first, I can’t remember a season where we’ve only drawn 3 games.

If we don’t get over the line, being incapable of salvaging results will certainly be one of the main reasons why.

[Letters]

Closing out tight games has become a useful ability though.
If we do get over the line that will be why.

[Chippy]

One thing Arteta hasn’t given this team are some powers of recovery. We’ve only gained 4 points from a losing position all season and lost almost a third of our games. Psychologically it seems to destroy this team if they concede first, I can’t remember a season where we’ve only drawn 3 games.

If we don’t get over the line, being incapable of salvaging results will certainly be one of the main reasons why.

Not getting to the Champions League may be a good thing. Could you imagine this lot against the cream of Europe? And if anyone thinks qualifying would open the purse strings, think again.

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah we’d probably struggle but I’d still rather be in it than not, it’s been long enough.

The main thing we’d benefit from is at least the squad would have gained the experience of getting a job done and that could help mentally moving forward. Majority of them have never been involved like this at the business end of a season where every game has huge stakes. They’re a young squad and need these kind of moments to grow.

Also, we’ve probably got just as much chance of finishing 6th next year as we do 4th, so it’s an opportunity that we’d regret letting slip.

[dazthegooner]

We go on about whether we would be able to compete in the Champions league with this squad, but we would have brought players in (hopefully top draw) to make us stronger for next season.

[Chippy]

We go on about whether we would be able to compete in the Champions league with this squad, but we would have brought players in (hopefully top draw) to make us stronger for next season.

Unlikely. He would still be choosing players like Nketiah, Elneny, Tavares, etc.

At least we have a better chance in the Europa League.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Qualifying for the Europa is the worst of all worlds. This is because:
1. The competition is not enough to be an incentive to attract top players.

2. Management won’t invest in the squad to the degree needed.

3. We’re threadbare as it is and struggling to finish 4th. The last thing we need now is additional fixtures.

4. It will be harder to finish 4th because we have yet another financially doped team in the league.

It’s pretty much now or not for a long fucking time if we are to qualify for the Champions League.

[Chippy]

Qualifying for the Europa is the worst of all worlds. This is because:
1. The competition is not enough to be an incentive to attract top players.

2. Management won’t invest in the squad to the degree needed.

3. We’re threadbare as it is and struggling to finish 4th. The last thing we need now is additional fixtures.

4. It will be harder to finish 4th because we have yet another financially doped team in the league.

It’s pretty much now or not for a long fucking time if we are to qualify for the Champions League.

The Europa Conference League is the worst of all. A shit competition with no reward. At least the Europa League can you into the CL.
In addition, it doesn't matter if this is our last chance of CL for years to come. What's the point of getting in and then being knocked out in the group stages?

[IBK]

The Europa Conference League is the worst of all. A shit competition with no reward. At least the Europa League can you into the CL.
In addition, it doesn't matter if this is our last chance of CL for years to come. What's the point of getting in and then being knocked out in the group stages?

We're in the Europa league no matter what.

As for XC's post, I'm not sure I follow you.

1. Europe is an incentive re recruitment. Maybe not for the best players in the world, but should be sufficient for the likes of Jesus and Tielemans provided that they believe that this is a stepping stone to CL next year. It's certainly better than no European football which is where we were last Summer but still recruited well.

2. Where's your evidence for this. Suggest we wait and see. Clearly we have our targets set up alteady, and I suspect that there are different lists prepared depending on which European competition we are in.

3. On the contrary - I think we need the extra competitions to give backup players playing time and allow them the opprtunity to break into the first team. Part of the problem this season was that the likes of Partey; Tomi and Saka have been run into the ground. More likely that we can rotate if replacements are match ready.

4. Perhaps...but c'est la vie. We have to accept that we are not in the same position, and we are trying to compete in anyther way...and are the team with maybe the most development potential in the league. So we either truest the process, or give up.

[selassie]

Not getting to the Champions League may be a good thing. Could you imagine this lot against the cream of Europe? And if anyone thinks qualifying would open the purse strings, think again.

Chippy, funds aren't the problem, we are spending, we spent 150 million last summer without any European football. Our issue right now is that we aren't that attractive a destination for the best players in Europe and things will remain that way until we close the gap on City and Liverpool, let alone Chelsea or Man United who are a bigger draw for their name alone.

Recruitment is the least of our issues right now, we seem to be getting it right at the moment.

[Mac76]

Unlikely. He would still be choosing players like Nketiah, Elneny, Tavares, etc.

At least we have a better chance in the Europa League.

err, he isn't choosing Tavares, and Elneny's doing a very good job for us - Nketiah oughtn't to be our No 1 next season but he's won us a good few points lately - i have to say though, i thought he froze in the early stages yesterday - he had a really good couple of early chances to run down defenders and/or the goalie, but he just stood there

but i agree the EL might be better for this squad, as a gentler introduction to European level football

[IBK]

Yeah - I don't really get this attitude that Europa League football is worse than not being in Europe. As a stepping stone back to the CL it has its metrits and by offering more games/playing time it could be a good way of developing some of our younger players. That said - like Letters on the other thread I'm not ready to throw in the towel re CL football next season.

[I am invisible]

CL, EL, I don’t think it really matter too much at this point - the next step for this team is learning how to manage regular mid-week football (and travel) and building out a squad to cope with the extra games, so either competition is fine for that. I know all our goals as fans are very immediate and centre around what we can do in the season at hand, but when you look at the profile of player we’re investing in I think the club are clearly looking at building towards something over more of a 2-3 year period.

Look, we’re not winning the CL on our first attempt with this young team, and I don’t think it will effect our long-term plans too much if we don’t make it, so there’s not too many worries here either way - mostly I just want it now so spurs can’t have it! If we can halt their plans and take another piranha out of the tank then let’s fucking go for it! But let’s also not stress too much if it doesn’t happen.

[Niall_Quinn]

CL, EL, I don’t think it really matter too much at this point - the next step for this team is learning how to manage regular mid-week football (and travel) and building out a squad to cope with the extra games, so either competition is fine for that. I know all our goals as fans are very immediate and centre around what we can do in the season at hand, but when you look at the profile of player we’re investing in I think the club are clearly looking at building towards something over more of a 2-3 year period.

Look, we’re not winning the CL on our first attempt with this young team, and I don’t think it will effect our long-term plans too much if we don’t make it, so there’s not too many worries here either way - mostly I just want it now so spurs can’t have it! If we can halt their plans and take another piranha out of the tank then let’s fucking go for it! But let’s also not stress too much if it doesn’t happen.

I wouldn't call a decade "immediate". It's more about "when". When will there be a sign that building blocks are being placed, rather than confetti thrown?

[IBK]

So...I thought that analysis of Arteta's fall at the last fence should be on this thread.

First the negatives:

- I said that he should be judged on his January gamble at the end of the season and so it falls to be judged now. It was a mistake not to try to bring in a striker and it's certainly cost us the 1 or 2 points that we needed to get top 4. The gamble was that other players might step up to give us the goals we needed, but when you look at the return from Laca; Eddie; Saka; ESR and Martinelli and our 'goals for' column - it's there in black and white.
- The naivity of a rookie manager in approaching these last 2 games is there for all to see. Gung ho against Sp*rs when our first objective should surely have been to stop them scoring, then timid against a Newcastle side treating last night's game as their cup fineal, when the precise opposite should have been the case.
- Folding when the pressure was on. This was not only true of the players last night, but the manager as well. The performance last night in particular - but at times the SP*rs game was for me horribly reminiscent of the Europa League semi last year against Villareal. I think that the tactics exacerbated a palpable nervousness among the players. A game plan requires precision football and freedom of thought is not the one to ask young and inexperienced players to execute when the pressure is on. Manager and players looked so flat and inflexible last night. Arteta clearly did not plan for Newcastle's high press and his players simply could not deal with the ferocity of them closing down high up the pitch. You have to ask why he got it so wrong.
- A similar question applies to our inability to shake off a loss. Throughout the season one loss has left a hangover in subsequent games, and for me this is down to a failure to revert to a simple, easily executed game plan to restore confidence. Either there is a worrying inflexibility in the manager's approach, or a lack of realism in terms of his team's ability or resilience.
- Squad management has at times been poor this season. Last night, and again for most of the game last Thursday our players were running on fumes. They looked utterly spent. White and Gabriel clearly nursing injuries; Saka the same; ESR a shadow of the player he has been. Tomi injured yet again after probably being rushed back to soon. Odegard looked exhausted...the list goes on. Arteta had few or no options last night, but his failure to trust understudies earier in the season contributed to this state of affairs and IMHO has cost us a few points this season.

But having said this:

- There have been clear improvements over the season that have been overshadowed by the debacle of the past week.
- In a way, its a miracle that top 4 was on with 2 games to go - with the youngest EPL squad decimated by injuries to at least 3 of the most important players in the first team, and a very small playing squad in the first place. If we are being fair, we do need to recognise the manager's achievement as a rookie, with rookie players, in getting to this point. Not pushing to top 4 when it was in our hands is a failure. Finishing 5th counts as par in terms of expectations more generally.
- I'm still not going to kill Arteta for binning Aubameyang in January. We have to accept that we are on his 'long term' train - and that trying to root out players who don't buy into the vision is part of this. We are yet to see whether we have lost the battle but made progress in the war when we see whether our targeted signings in the Summer are transformational.
- Arteta lacks managerial experience. That's a fact, and its no surprise that there have been some glaring mistakes as a result. He has shown some ability to learn from previous ones and despite the disappointment of today writing him of is not at this point justified.

[HCZ_Reborn]

There’s nothing I’ve seen that gives me any hope that we will improve under Arteta, I think he did an exceptional job winning the FA cup but it’s been all down hill from there.

One of the most alarming things about him seems to be his personality, it’s ok to be an unlikeable prick if you’ve got something to balance against that like managerial achievement. It seems he falls out with so many players, from Auba to Pepe to Guendouzi (that’s just the tip of the iceberg).
Why the hell were the players so nervous last night, I don’t know but they certainly aren’t getting any confidence from the Lego haired passive aggressive sociopath on the bench.
If we couldn’t bring anyone in, in January don’t get rid of Auba….it’s a move completed motivated by ego and the need to be the big man, and only people who are incredibly insecure behave in such a way.

I don’t think the players believe in him, I don’t think they respect him given his mediocre playing career and it shows how far the Kroenke mob are removed from the reality of football that they gave him a new contract when he’s not remotely come close to deserving such a reward.

But it’s their money, if they want to spaff it up the wall when invariably they have to pay him loads of compensation for firing him that’s their lookout.

All I know is that 31 defeats in 95 league games coupled with only 143 goals scored in that time is absolutely abysmal record . Not only are we rubbish, but we are boring and we are stifling the careers of players with potential because we have as a coach someone with no personality, who doesn’t trust his players enough to rotate and has broken the ones he has used repeatedly.

Unfortunately I fear keeping Arteta on guarantees that we will end up losing Saka to a bigger club within a year or so.

[HCZ_Reborn]

One thing Arteta hasn’t given this team are some powers of recovery. We’ve only gained 4 points from a losing position all season and lost almost a third of our games. Psychologically it seems to destroy this team if they concede first, I can’t remember a season where we’ve only drawn 3 games.

If we don’t get over the line, being incapable of salvaging results will certainly be one of the main reasons why.


It’s not that much of a surprise though, the only thing you can say in Arteta’s defence is that the stats for us coming back into games wasn’t much better under Wenger or Emery.

We are easy to defend against, one is because we aren’t great at transitioning from defence to Attack (mainly because we have central midfielders who aren’t especially technically good, athletic or confident in playing through a press)

So many times we rely on the full backs or specifically Tierney when he’s fit, crossing the ball into the box to no one

Out of the regular front four I note it’s only Saka who will try and win possession from deep

And when we do build up an attack, we rarely try and press to keep the ball in play in the attacking third because we are worried about losing possession and being countered

Partey is good at sitting in front of the back four and protecting it, but he’s also been used too often as the link between defence and attack when that’s not really what he does. Xhaka is a lazy shit, he plays well when he’s got space and time like the amount Chelsea awarded him but when teams close us down he’s unreliable as he’s forever needing time to get the ball onto his favoured foot.

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

We really should have gone with an experienced Manager. Even someone like Moyes. Look at what he's done with West Ham. They are hard to beat and play some good football.

[Marc Overmars]

Read a stat earlier that said we've fallen behind 16 times in matches this season and only managed to equalise 3 times. Basically if we concede first it's almost certain to end in defeat.

That is rancid and really illustrates how weak our attack has been.

[Letters]

Read a stat earlier that said we've fallen behind 16 times in matches this season and only managed to equalise 3 times. Basically if we concede first it's almost certain to end in defeat.

That is rancid and really illustrates how weak our attack has been.

Ooft. That's not ideal. I wonder how often we've let a lead slip though, I'd bet it's not often. Closing out games is one thing we do seem to have got better at.

[Letters]

There’s nothing I’ve seen that gives me any hope that we will improve under Arteta
I dunno. We have 66 points, 8 more than at this stage last season. If we win at the weekend we'll finish on 69 - still 8 points better off than last year and that would have been enough for 4th last year.
There does seem to have been a bit more shape about the team, at times we've moved the ball forward with more purpose. We lack a top striker but that's not news. And we have got better at closing out games. They're a young squad and that costs you points, I certainly see some potential in this lot.
I don't agree that the players aren't buying in to what he's trying to do. Maybe some of them didn't and he got rid of them. As he should have. Auba was trouble and he wasn't performing for us. Didn't he turn up late for the NLD and Arteta dropped him? He was supposed to been our captrain FFS.
But Arteta did take a massive risk by letting him go, and some others, and not adding to the squad in January. It left us threadbare and very vulnerable if we picked up injuries, which we did.


Why the hell were the players so nervous last night
That is a worry but I guess it was inexperience which led to an inability to deal with the pressure. Hopefully on Sunday they'll relax now things aren't in our hands. I don't think Norwich will do us any favours but I hope we at least get our result just in case.

I can only infer from the new contract that Kronke set Europa League qualification as Arteta's target. The announcement came pretty much immediately after that was secured.


All I know is that 31 defeats in 95 league games coupled with only 143 goals scored in that time is absolutely abysmal record
Hard to argue with, but to be fair look at the mess he inherited. He's got rid of a lot of dead wood since then and given the team more shape.
We do lose too many games but the number we are winning has increased too. Two seasons ago we only won 14 (holy shit that's awful!). Last year it was 18. This year it's 21, could end up 22. Let's not forget just two years ago we finished on 56 points.

I think he's trying to build something. I do think there's been some improvement over the last couple of years. It might not be fast enough for everyone's liking but I don't want to be another one of those clubs with a revolving door for managers. We don't want to be overly patient either of course, next year it's top 4 or bust for me. But I think Arteta deserves another season to try and achieve that.

[Chippy]

I dunno. We have 66 points, 8 more than at this stage last season. If we win at the weekend we'll finish on 69 - still 8 points better off than last year and that would have been enough for 4th last year.
There does seem to have been a bit more shape about the team, at times we've moved the ball forward with more purpose. We lack a top striker but that's not news. And we have got better at closing out games. They're a young squad and that costs you points, I certainly see some potential in this lot.
I don't agree that the players aren't buying in to what he's trying to do. Maybe some of them didn't and he got rid of them. As he should have. Auba was trouble and he wasn't performing for us. Didn't he turn up late for the NLD and Arteta dropped him? He was supposed to been our captrain FFS.
But Arteta did take a massive risk by letting him go, and some others, and not adding to the squad in January. It left us threadbare and very vulnerable if we picked up injuries, which we did.


That is a worry but I guess it was inexperience which led to an inability to deal with the pressure. Hopefully on Sunday they'll relax now things aren't in our hands. I don't think Norwich will do us any favours but I hope we at least get our result just in case.

I can only infer from the new contract that Kronke set Europa League qualification as Arteta's target. The announcement came pretty much immediately after that was secured.


Hard to argue with, but to be fair look at the mess he inherited. He's got rid of a lot of dead wood since then and given the team more shape.
We do lose too many games but the number we are winning has increased too. Two seasons ago we only won 14 (holy shit that's awful!). Last year it was 18. This year it's 21, could end up 22. Let's not forget just two years ago we finished on 56 points.

I think he's trying to build something. I do think there's been some improvement over the last couple of years. It might not be fast enough for everyone's liking but I don't want to be another one of those clubs with a revolving door for managers. We don't want to be overly patient either of course, next year it's top 4 or bust for me. But I think Arteta deserves another season to try and achieve that.

If the Spuds actually won the Champions League (we cannot dismiss that if Kane, Son and Conte all stay put), the fans would never forgive Arteta and the players for handing 4th place to them. I think even you may actually join the "Arteta out" brigade :lol:

[Bumble]

If the Spuds actually won the Champions League (we cannot dismiss that if Kane, Son and Conte all stay put), the fans would never forgive Arteta and the players for handing 4th place to them. I think even you may actually join the "Arteta out" brigade :lol:

That's not going to happen

[Mac76]

That's not going to happen

Careful...

[IBK]

I dunno. We have 66 points, 8 more than at this stage last season. If we win at the weekend we'll finish on 69 - still 8 points better off than last year and that would have been enough for 4th last year.
There does seem to have been a bit more shape about the team, at times we've moved the ball forward with more purpose. We lack a top striker but that's not news. And we have got better at closing out games. They're a young squad and that costs you points, I certainly see some potential in this lot.
I don't agree that the players aren't buying in to what he's trying to do. Maybe some of them didn't and he got rid of them. As he should have. Auba was trouble and he wasn't performing for us. Didn't he turn up late for the NLD and Arteta dropped him? He was supposed to been our captrain FFS.
But Arteta did take a massive risk by letting him go, and some others, and not adding to the squad in January. It left us threadbare and very vulnerable if we picked up injuries, which we did.


That is a worry but I guess it was inexperience which led to an inability to deal with the pressure. Hopefully on Sunday they'll relax now things aren't in our hands. I don't think Norwich will do us any favours but I hope we at least get our result just in case.

I can only infer from the new contract that Kronke set Europa League qualification as Arteta's target. The announcement came pretty much immediately after that was secured.


Hard to argue with, but to be fair look at the mess he inherited. He's got rid of a lot of dead wood since then and given the team more shape.
We do lose too many games but the number we are winning has increased too. Two seasons ago we only won 14 (holy shit that's awful!). Last year it was 18. This year it's 21, could end up 22. Let's not forget just two years ago we finished on 56 points.

I think he's trying to build something. I do think there's been some improvement over the last couple of years. It might not be fast enough for everyone's liking but I don't want to be another one of those clubs with a revolving door for managers. We don't want to be overly patient either of course, next year it's top 4 or bust for me. But I think Arteta deserves another season to try and achieve that.

Not much to disagree with there.

I understand the furstration, and am as gutted as the next man by our implosion when it really mattered, but in the cold light of day 2 days after the Newcastle debacle the only issue that I really have with the manager is that his drastic culling of the squad left us threadbare and simply unable to cope with what we have to accept was an injury crisis at the sharp end of the season. The rest of the criticism can be answered mostly by the reality that we are an inexperienced team with a manager who is learning on the job. Inconsistency was inevitable. People can take issue with the appointment of a rookie manager but when you look at the team that we have put out for the last 8 games it is surprising that we were in the race for top 4 until the penultimate game of the season.

This is not lack of ambition from me. It is simply recognition of where we are.

Where I have some hope is that our team and strategy this season was based on recruiting young players with potential, rather than the finished article. This was deliberate and part of a long term strategy to build a foundation for future success, and when the noise has died down I think that it will remain the case that we are still maybe the best destination for top young talent wanting to try to achieve things with a manager committed to this ideal. Not taking our chance to accelerate this team's development by reaching the CL is a setback, but it is not in context the disaster that some are making it out to be.

I still feel a bit disillusioned with how my emotional backing of this team has turned out (it's the hope that always kills with Arsenal), but looking forwards, we are in better shape than we have been for 5 years and like Letters I think that Arteta has earned the right to see whether this progress will contunue next season.

[Marc Overmars]

Happy enough to give him another year, on the basis that we will sign some players who can make a difference up front. Also would like to see the relationship with Saliba mended and have him part of the squad now.

If we start the season under prepared again then my patience might run thin. It’s always our biggest problem, starting slow and taking an age to get going. I want the signings wrapped up early so they actually have a pre-season to work with.

[Chippy]

Careful...

Indeed. We were shitting ourselves when they got to the final in 2019 :lol:

I was anyway!

[Mac76]

Indeed. We were shitting ourselves when they got to the final in 2019 :lol:

I was anyway!

it was horrible - i only dared look at the result at about 11pm that night - was so relieved

Klopp :bow:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have wanted him gone since November 2020, and I’ve yet to be convinced that this was precipitous. If it was up to me he and Edu would be out on their arses right now. But it’s not up to me, I have no choice but to be patient with him because he isn’t going anywhere so I can only hope that what I regard as utter dismal failure is turned around and we can break this cycle where we dip into long running losing streaks or failing to score goals.
I don’t see it because I think it’s a reflection of who he is, doesn’t inspire confidence in his players and he is an insecure egotist who is neither liked or respected by his players.

[HCZ_Reborn]

it was horrible - i only dared look at the result at about 11pm that night - was so relieved

Klopp :bow:

Possibly arrogant/dismissive of me, but whilst I was deflated when they turned the game around in Amsterdam at no point did I ever believe they would ever win in the final even when they were on top of Liverpool in big parts of that game.
I celebrated when Origi got the second goal but it wasn’t relief it was just confirmation of what I expected to happen

[Chippy]

it was horrible - i only dared look at the result at about 11pm that night - was so relieved

Klopp :bow:

Me too! I just couldn't watch it :lol:

[Letters]

I have wanted him gone since November 2020, and I’ve yet to be convinced that this was precipitous. If it was up to me he and Edu would be out on their arses right now. But it’s not up to me, I have no choice but to be patient with him because he isn’t going anywhere so I can only hope that what I regard as utter dismal failure is turned around.
Out of interest, how would you define success and on what basis?

[IBK]

I think that there are 2 problems with those Gooners who are most vocal about Arteta's regime being a failure. First while its easy to be critical, there is often far less offered regarding what they would do differently, within the constraints of the club. Its easy just to say we should have spent more, or got in a 'world class' manager, without recognising that whoever came in and whoever was bought would always represent a risk. We tried the marquee players route at Arsenal (and we have actually spent a lot over the past few years), and it didn't really work. Other clubs have signed 'big names' (Manure; Spurs) and fallen flat on their faces. This argument fails also to acknowledge just what a mess our club was in after Wenger's long reign.

Second, IMO this argument often seems to be based on Arsenal being in a vacuum. While we may regard ourselves as being a 'top four' club, the reality is that the competition has changed - and strengthened hugely. We can look at games lost this season, but aside from Liverpool and Citeh - outliers that cannot fairly be compared to where we are at present, everyone in the leahue drops points aplenty. I don't but this 'weak opposition this season' argument. We will finish 5th on merit, just short of 4th and not that many points adrift of 3rd. In the real world and with our young team - this is by no means abject failure.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Out of interest, how would you define success and on what basis?

Well I find it’s less about what is successful in terms of my expectations but more consistent signs that there is a roadmap to success
Signs of success would be increased goal scoring and more signs that we can deal with adversity. It’s already been discussed that we have an atrocious record of getting back into games when we concede the first goal, almost to the point that when we go 1-0 down you might as well call it a day.
Will additional personnel help with that? Well I hope so but at the same time it feels like we’ve not made the best use of the players at our disposal, and often Arteta has a tendency for Galaxy Brained tactical line ups and throwing players in at the deep end where he’s overused others and broken them.
I’ve not seen a progressive learning curve either in our transfer dealings or in the way we approach games and I’m not at all convinced that we are likely to see either.
Ultimately I’m open to being proved wrong because I have no choice and I want to be wrong, I think the upheaval of getting rid of Arteta will be wholly undesirable. I just have no faith in him, and from a psychological perspective I don’t see him as a person I’d go to war for.

I caveat that by saying that I appreciate he’s a relatively young individual on a steep learning curve, it was also obvious Man City and Guardiola think highly of him I think he’s far more tactically astute than Arsene Wenger ever was and I think whatever I say about his relationship with the players it’s clearly not non existent like it was with Unai Emery.
But I think when you look at Klopp who despite having spent more inherited just as big a mess at Liverpool as Arteta inherited, it was already established within the same time frame that Liverpool were a tough side to beat and could destroy teams on the pitch and I do not think we intimidate opposition sides at all

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think that there are 2 problems with those Gooners who are most vocal about Arteta's regime being a failure. First while its easy to be critical, there is often far less offered regarding what they would do differently, within the constraints of the club. Its easy just to say we should have spent more, or got in a 'world class' manager, without recognising that whoever came in and whoever was bought would always represent a risk. We tried the marquee players route at Arsenal (and we have actually spent a lot over the past few years), and it didn't really work. Other clubs have signed 'big names' (Manure; Spurs) and fallen flat on their faces. This argument fails also to acknowledge just what a mess our club was in after Wenger's long reign.

Second, IMO this argument often seems to be based on Arsenal being in a vacuum. While we may regard ourselves as being a 'top four' club, the reality is that the competition has changed - and strengthened hugely. We can look at games lost this season, but aside from Liverpool and Citeh - outliers that cannot fairly be compared to where we are at present, everyone in the leahue drops points aplenty. I don't but this 'weak opposition this season' argument. We will finish 5th on merit, just short of 4th and not that many points adrift of 3rd. In the real world and with our young team - this is by no means abject failure.


I’m not so sure we are that constrained financially, it’s very clear the self sufficiency model has gone out of the window especially since the pandemic, we are consistently amongst the biggest spenders in the league but when you consider the money spent on full backs, defenders, defensive midfielders etc when the clear problem under Arteta is goal scoring you have to wonder whether it’s been money well spent.

[Globalgunner]

Any team that has the lummox Xhaka as the lynchpin of its midfield is going nowhere. None of the top 7 teams have such a limited player as a constant. None. Arteta is vain and has limited coaching ability, No vision and no visible football philosophy. None of those flaws will be rectified next season. We will be here next May telling you the same thing. Just as we did last May

Its like expecting the Haas team to be amongst the front F1 runners next season. Aint gonna happen

[IBK]

Well I find it’s less about what is successful in terms of my expectations but more consistent signs that there is a roadmap to success
Signs of success would be increased goal scoring and more signs that we can deal with adversity. It’s already been discussed that we have an atrocious record of getting back into games when we concede the first goal, almost to the point that when we go 1-0 down you might as well call it a day.
Will additional personnel help with that? Well I hope so but at the same time it feels like we’ve not made the best use of the players at our disposal, and often Arteta has a tendency for Galaxy Brained tactical line ups and throwing players in at the deep end where he’s overused others and broken them.
I’ve not seen a progressive learning curve either in our transfer dealings or in the way we approach games and I’m not at all convinced that we are likely to see either.
Ultimately I’m open to being proved wrong because I have no choice and I want to be wrong, I think the upheaval of getting rid of Arteta will be wholly undesirable. I just have no faith in him, and from a psychological perspective I don’t see him as a person I’d go to war for.

I caveat that by saying that I appreciate he’s a relatively young individual on a steep learning curve, it was also obvious Man City and Guardiola think highly of him I think he’s far more tactically astute than Arsene Wenger ever was and I think whatever I say about his relationship with the players it’s clearly not non existent like it was with Unai Emery.
But I think when you look at Klopp who despite having spent more inherited just as big a mess at Liverpool as Arteta inherited, it was already established within the same time frame that Liverpool were a tough side to beat and could destroy teams on the pitch and I do not think we intimidate opposition sides at all

All good points but I think it's worth pointing out that (some tactical mis-steps aside) Arteta's best 11 this season was good enough for top 4. I agree that our ability to come back from being a goal down is a cause for concern, but when our strongest team was available the strategy was clearly to score first and then defend a lead and this in turn speaks to the manager either not resolving an effective game plan, or not having the personnel to deal with a low block from the opposition. Both of these can be expected to improve going forwards (and it's no coincidence that we are clearly in the market for a physically imposing CF who can play with his back to goal, hold up play and be a target for crosses). In terms of team building, while our goals against deteriorated in the final third of the season it is a sad fact that our first choice back 5 was only available to the manager for (I think) less than 10 games this season. While they were fit, Arteta's game plan was pretty effective.

I hope very much that the fact that second string players by and large did not let the manager down when called upon is not a lesson missed by our manager or obscured by the general malaise of the whole team at the final hurdle. Rotation is something we must see next season, and if the mistake is repeated then I will be more convinced that Arteta is not the man to take us any further.

Where I do take issue with you is the lack of a progressive learning curve. I think we have seen this over the time that Arteta has been with us. His first incarnation once he was settled was to make us hard to beat and he achieved this and won an FA Cup playing defensively. There is no doubt this season that he made strides in making us a more effective force going forwards. I accept that this could be regarded as self-inflicted, but it's hardly a surprise that with one of our senior strikers offloaded (and on very poor form before this), and the other a busted flush as a goal scorer, goals were increasingly difficult to find.

I'm not sure either that the comparison with Klopp is necessarily a fair one. I don't think that Liverpool were anything like as much of a mess when he took over - at least off the pitch and at executive level. We have to remember that Arsenal were a basket case, badly damaged by Raul Sanllehi, with a vacuum in terms of executive and director level experience when he left. No coherent strategy. No identity. As a rookie, Arteta had to deal with far more entrenched problems than Klopp, who had a wealth of experience to draw on. It really is no surprise that it has taken much longer to steady the ship at Arsenal, and indeed the 'soft' achievements of Arteta in terms of identity; a playing style; healing some of the deep rifts in the fan base and (after time admittedly) putting in place a cohesive recruitment strategy are important signs that there is now a far better and more stable platform to push on than at any time since Wenger left. We don't need to look any further than the shambles at Manure - or even the constant churn of managers down the road from us to see the manager's achievements in some context.

[IBK]

I’m not so sure we are that constrained financially, it’s very clear the self sufficiency model has gone out of the window especially since the pandemic, we are consistently amongst the biggest spenders in the league but when you consider the money spent on full backs, defenders, defensive midfielders etc when the clear problem under Arteta is goal scoring you have to wonder whether it’s been money well spent.

We are constrained financially by comparison with those teams we regard as our rivals - Citeh; Chelsea and Manure (and now Newcastle). We are also constrained by our lack of CL football money for 5 years. Most importantly in terms of my question about what the club's detractors would suggest as a road map for success, we are constrained from simply buying a team of players who will guaratee success.

As I said, we have spent big, and unwisely, and our transfer business has been lamentable, but last Summer was encouraging trasfer wise, and I think the club have earned some optimism that the holes in the squad will be addressed effectively this Summer.

[Globalgunner]

We are not being outspent by Liverpool or Chelsea (Chelsea have been constrained for at least 3 seasons now). We just waste our money. We did not improve our midfield or attack and instead spent on areas we were already stocked like in defence. Has Ramsdale improved us significantly, has Ben White?. Gabriel has been our most dependable defender and he scores goals too. Would Saliba a French international not have been a better addition this season instead of the 50m spent on White that could have given us more bodies in midfield where we are weakest. We spent 75m on Pepe a player not wanted by Emery at the time and discarded by Arteta almost since he arrived. What the other teams like City and Chelsea do is offer higher wages than we generally do but then again we had our 350kpw man (Ozil)for over 4 years until last year and promptly replaced him with Auba. We comfortably outspend the Spuds. Arsenal have no business pleading poverty.


We are a badly run business enterprise saved only by the fact that despite fiscal recklessness we are still a money spinner thanks to the captive addicted fanbase prepared to leverage themselves to keep supporting the club. It is a dwindling fanbase mind you as the new generation outside the UK shores are not keen to line up behind a never do well entity. We will lose the next generation as surely as the previous generation were lured to Arsenal by the exploits of Bergkamp, Henry and Vieira.

[Letters]

We will be here next May telling you the same thing. Just as we did last May.
What exactly were you telling us last May?
I looked through the season predictions thread and you didn’t post.
What was your expectation for this season in terms of league position and what was that based on?