When will Arteta be sacked by

[Letters]

You’re worse than me honestly.
Ah, your old "you know you are, you said you are" gambit. You do that a lot.


You said edited as if that means anything. Answer me this, why would it have been edited to make him seem worse than he is.
I'm not saying they were editing it with any specific agenda, but something being edited necessarily means you're not seeing the whole thing. And of course that means something. Like how when I watch a few highlights you tell me I'm not seeing the whole game and therefore you know better than me. Curiously you also seem to know better than other people who watched the game.
But the point is Mrs Arteta appears for a few minutes of the whole series. And from that and some brief interaction between them in front of cameras, which necessarily changes behaviour anyway, you think you have some insight into the state of their marriage. It's laughable, honestly.

LOL @ you calling anyone else arrogant. As Oscar Wilde, or possibly Simply Red, once said "look in the mirror baby".

[KSE Comedy Club]

Fair enough, I’ve never liked him on a personal level…just seems cold, passive aggressive and unpleasant. I’ve also never liked the football we played under him, but in terms of head to head against the bigger teams it’s clearly been bringing us success. I think people talking about regression have short memories…as this for me is Groundhog Day of where we were exactly a year ago. But the problem is hard of thinking people seem to think I’m saying this as a defence of the man when it’s the opposite.

I think people do absolutely also like throwing the baby out with the bath water and talk about another rebuild. I mean why…this is a very good squad that needs for me three players…cover for Odegaard or indeed someone who can play with him as part of a double pivot, cover for Saka and a striker.

I don’t trust Arteta to a) get in these players b) let go of his need either for the inverted full back or the no8 role. That kind of stubborn obsessiveness doesn’t auger a happy ending so he needs to go with minimum of ceremony.

Agreed, we do have a decent squad - but when you bring in a new manager they will ultimately want to replace some of the existing players and change the way we play, so it will become a rebuild of sorts.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agreed, we do have a decent squad - but when you bring in a new manager they will ultimately want to replace some of the existing players and change the way we play, so it will become a rebuild of sorts.

This is precisely why for my money, why we should have a head coach and not a manager

Someone who basically is agreeable with the philosophy we want, which is to control and contain games when we are playing the big sides, but to actually be far more fluid when we are playing Cerebral Palsy FC at home

[IBK]

I think that this is precisely what makes Slot special. In any event, my real point was that a new manager coming in and instantly making a team title contenders/achieving the results he has is fairly unique. It's easy in theory to argue that there is a manager out there who would do better with our squad than Areteta is but in practice there are too many variables to make this a certainty, or even a likelihood. We only have to look at the many examples of managerial changes in our own league over the past few years. As always, the majority have not worked as planned - at least on the first change. The higher up the league you get, the less likely it is that the planets will align to bring sucess. Like players, often those who are most vociferous about new signings - based on assumptions about likely performance - are the same people who are first to write those same signings off when their aspirations are not met quickly.

Been listening to Arseblog today. I am always pleased to be forced to look at an issue in a different way (there is always an alternative view). Harry Symeou made the point that it is inconceivable that Arteta's plan was to only improve his forward line with Sterling at the last minute. It is similarly inconceivable that our manager cannot see that we are lacking in this department. Further, while I feel that the club has been naive in trusting that the performances of the second half of last season would continue their trajectory, it is impossible to legislate/plan for so many players being off form at the same time. Not sure I buy this, but it is not impossible to take the view that Arteta is actually getting a tune out of many of our players that often exceeds their level of ability. Neither is it so far fetched to wonder whether the Club has refused to fund the players that Arteta feels his system needs to succeed.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ah, your old "you know you are, you said you are" gambit. You do that a lot.


I'm not saying they were editing it with any specific agenda, but something being edited necessarily means you're not seeing the whole thing. And of course that means something. Like how when I watch a few highlights you tell me I'm not seeing the whole game and therefore you know better than me. Curiously you also seem to know better than other people who watched the game.
But the point is Mrs Arteta appears for a few minutes of the whole series. And from that and some brief interaction between them in front of cameras, which necessarily changes behaviour anyway, you think you have some insight into the state of their marriage. It's laughable, honestly.

LOL @ you calling anyone else arrogant. As Oscar Wilde, or possibly Simply Red, once said "look in the mirror baby".

I don’t understand your last argument. Why does me being arrogant preclude me from calling anyone else arrogant. Even if I knew what I was doing, I’d be a terrible Arsenal coach because I’m a need to be right egomaniac who would start fights with players and other staff.

In fact my arrogance gives me good grounding to see it in others

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think that this is precisely what makes Slot special. In any event, my real point was that a new manager coming in and instantly making a team title contenders/achieving the results he has is fairly unique. It's easy in theory to argue that there is a manager out there who would do better with our squad than Areteta is but in practice there are too many variables to make this a certainty, or even a likelihood. We only have to look at the many examples of managerial changes in our own league over the past few years. As always, the majority have not worked as planned - at least on the first change. The higher up the league you get, the less likely it is that the planets will align to bring sucess. Like players, often those who are most vociferous about new signings - based on assumptions about likely performance - are the same people who are first to write those same signings off when their aspirations are not met quickly.

Been listening to Arseblog today. I am always pleased to be forced to look at an issue in a different way (there is always an alternative view). Harry Symeou made the point that it is inconceivable that Arteta's plan was to only improve his forward line with Sterling at the last minute. It is similarly inconceivable that our manager cannot see that we are lacking in this department. Further, while I feel that the club has been naive in trusting that the performances of the second half of last season would continue their trajectory, it is impossible to legislate/plan for so many players being off form at the same time. Not sure I buy this, but it is not impossible to take the view that Arteta is actually getting a tune out of many of our players that often exceeds their level of ability. Neither is it so far fetched to wonder whether the Club has refused to fund the players that Arteta feels his system needs to succeed.


The point isn’t that he didn’t buy a striker in the summer. It’s that he’s had nine transfer windows and the nearest he came to a striker was Jesus. Havertz was signed to replace Xhaka, so we only have him up front by accident rather than design.

I hear that he decided to wait because he couldn’t get Sesko, but come on what other area of the pitch does he show this Goldilocks mentality. By the summer of 2022 we lost two strikers Laca and Auba, and fine neither were performing great. But we spent thirty million on Vieira and thirty million on Zinchenko when arguably we needed neither

[Marc Overmars]

Saw a comment that said his biggest mistake was blowing the budget on Havertz. As a result of this, we now have an issue in midfield and also up front because Havertz excels in neither position. 2 positions overlooked and ruined by Arteta with one bad roll of the dice.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Saw a comment that said his biggest mistake was blowing the budget on Havertz. As a result of this, we now have an issue in midfield and also up front because Havertz excels in neither position. 2 positions overlooked and ruined by Arteta with one bad roll of the dice.

I think Havertz is an excellent back up striker, and unfortunately in this day and age 65 million is not a massive overspend

But like Giroud before him, he’s not the one who should be leading the line week in, week out

[Mac76]

But like Giroud before him, he’s not the one who should be leading the line week in, week out

Thing is, he hasn't been because in many games Arteta put him back in midfield where he's largely ineffectual - Arteta's taking people out of their best position because he won't try younger players, e.g. NIcholls at RB who looked fine in the summer, has without doubt cost us, he's just so conservative

As I recall he only even started playing Saka because fucking Willian was injured I think

[Letters]

I don’t understand your last argument. Why does me being arrogant preclude me from calling anyone else arrogant. Even if I knew what I was doing, I’d be a terrible Arsenal coach because I’m a need to be right egomaniac who would start fights with players and other staff.

In fact my arrogance gives me good grounding to see it in others
I guess your self-awareness is commendable.

It doesn't preclude you from calling anyone else arrogant, I was just laughing as it was a bit "pot calling the kettle black".
And if it's one of your reasons why you dislike him - which is reasonable, as it's generally regarded as an undesirable trait - I wonder why you seem to revel in your own.

Personally I don't really care whether Arteta is likeable - I honestly don't have much opinion about that. I just care about results.

[IBK]

The point isn’t that he didn’t buy a striker in the summer. It’s that he’s had nine transfer windows and the nearest he came to a striker was Jesus. Havertz was signed to replace Xhaka, so we only have him up front by accident rather than design.

I hear that he decided to wait because he couldn’t get Sesko, but come on what other area of the pitch does he show this Goldilocks mentality. By the summer of 2022 we lost two strikers Laca and Auba, and fine neither were performing great. But we spent thirty million on Vieira and thirty million on Zinchenko when arguably we needed neither

Don't get me wrong. It's obvious that Arteta has failed to invest in a striker that will get us to where we want to get to - repeatedly. But it's also obvious (chasing Vlahovic; Sesko up front; going all out to try for Mudryk; interest in Nico Williams as wingers) that the manager realises we need more attacking strength. What we don't know is the extent to which we have failed to do so lies with the club not being willing/able to release the funds. Edu's departure might be symptomatic of this also. Of all the options that might have been possible in the Summer, being sniffy about Ivan Tony is a big mistake.

[IBK]

Saw a comment that said his biggest mistake was blowing the budget on Havertz. As a result of this, we now have an issue in midfield and also up front because Havertz excels in neither position. 2 positions overlooked and ruined by Arteta with one bad roll of the dice.

But we weren't saying that about Havertz second half of last season? My view is that if anything, £105M for Rice emptied the coffers. While I'm not a fan of Merino, and Vieira was a bust (it happens) - I can at least see the thinking behind all 3 signings (Havertz; Vieira and Merino). Not so much the players we have signed for me, but the lack of investment in wingers/striker.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I guess your self-awareness is commendable.

It doesn't preclude you from calling anyone else arrogant, I was just laughing as it was a bit "pot calling the kettle black".
And if it's one of your reasons why you dislike him - which is reasonable, as it's generally regarded as an undesirable trait - I wonder why you seem to revel in your own.

Personally I don't really care whether Arteta is likeable - I honestly don't have much opinion about that. I just care about results.

I revel in it on here because I’m talking with a bunch of middle aged guys, for who let’s be fair to some extent our sense of certainty about issues outweighs our competence.

I’m not writing an academic case study on Arteta where I’d need to be drawing on a much more specific evidence base. I am drawing conclusions (which I’m broadly confident about) from what I’ve seen of him in both that benighted documentary and press conferences and pre and post match interviews for the last few years.

It’s not really relevant whether he’s likeable or not, that was me replying to KSE about him saying I really wanted him to be the one we succeeded under. I’m indifferent, it’s because I don’t like Arteta that I’m in no way invested in us succeeding under him In particular the way I was twenty years ago under Wenger (a man I did and do like despite how annoyed he was making me towards the end)

[HCZ_Reborn]

Basically when Emery left I had no malice towards him at all, even when he did the double over us for Villa. I like the guy.

When Arteta goes I don’t wish him success elsewhere, I hope he fails wherever he goes….because he’s a prick and he deserves to fail

[Letters]

because he’s a prick
Citation needed :lol:

I just find your depth of feeling about him a bit bizarre.
I felt like that about Mourinho and recognised it was a bit unhealthy. Most managers these days I can't really get excised about either way.

Arteta always felt like a punt. He's got no real pedigree at this level. But he deserves some credit for making us contenders. Yes, he's spent big but we've seen others do that to very little effect. And in "All or Nothing" I was quite impressed that there seemed to be some ambition and strategy. I don't think he's the man to get us over the line to win the biggest trophies but I don't particularly bear him any malice and I'm a little bemused at anyone who does.

I think my basis for believing Mourinho to be a despicable cunt was a bit more solid than yours about Arteta.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Citation needed :lol:

I just find your depth of feeling about him a bit bizarre.
I felt like that about Mourinho and recognised it was a bit unhealthy. Most managers these days I can't really get excised about either way.

Arteta always felt like a punt. He's got no real pedigree at this level. But he deserves some credit for making us contenders. Yes, he's spent big but we've seen others do that to very little effect. And in "All or Nothing" I was quite impressed that there seemed to be some ambition and strategy. I don't think he's the man to get us over the line to win the biggest trophies but I don't particularly bear him any malice and I'm a little bemused at anyone who does.

I think my basis for believing Mourinho to be a despicable cunt was a bit more solid than yours about Arteta.

Mourinho is a narcissist and I’m not particularly fond of them

With Arteta I know people like him, the kind of person who makes Sly digs at other people who won’t ever take responsibility and will bollock others for his own fuck ups.

And at least Mourinho could be witty at times, like him or not he does have charisma. Arteta is dull, zero personality….and that Guardiola like propensity to be offhand with people (with Guardiola it’s worse because he has that shit eating grin when he does so).

I’ve no time for people like that. Whilst Haaland no doubt regrets saying it. I think Arteta probably should stay humble


As for contention that your dislike of Mourinho has more basis, imagine you have a boss that gets you to do something that you know won’t work and then the same guy chews you out when it doesn’t work. Which is what Arteta did numerous times, would you be positively predisposed to that person

[IBK]

I have irrational hatred towards managers of many clubs that are our rivals - particularly where there is perceived injustice in games. Top of my list ATM is Eddie Howe, because I think his players are dirty, cheating pricks by instruction. I also have an issue with Hürzeler for the same reason - but mostly because of the points we've dropped to them, and I could have smacked Iraola in his fat gloating face after we lost to them. I will always despise SAF and Mourinho (the latter exacerbated by his disrespect for AW).

Hated Emery last season for (in my mind) losing us title.

I could never hate any Arsenal manager, though, and am a bit bemused by those who hate Arteta - who has undountedly done lots for our club; clearly cares about it and is one of our own.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have irrational hatred towards managers of many clubs that are our rivals - particularly where there is perceived injustice in games. Top of my list ATM is Eddie Howe, because I think his players are dirty, cheating pricks by instruction. I also have an issue with Hürzeler for the same reason - but mostly because of the points we've dropped to them, and I could have smacked Iraola in his fat gloating face after we lost to them. I will always despise SAF and Mourinho (the latter exacerbated by his disrespect for AW).

Hated Emery last season for (in my mind) losing us title.

I could never hate any Arsenal manager, though, and am a bit bemused by those who hate Arteta - who has undountedly done lots for our club; clearly cares about it and is one of our own.

I’m not even sure I hate Arteta (at times I feel hatred towards him) but I definitely feel zero gratitude towards him. He was brought in as a head coach and that’s what he should have stayed.

I think there’s a tendency towards unwarranted superiority amongst Iberians that gets my back up. Spain was a borderline failed state after Franco died, and it’s only because it’s been sucking at the teet of the EU for 40 years that it’s not in that state now. It’s a country that can’t have a honest national conversation over Franco and the extent of the butchery and cruelty that happened under him….in some circles in Spain he’s still treated like a national hero even though he drove the economy into the dirt and had countless people tortured and murdered.

This is a country that’s both economically and culturally fractured. Whatever we moan about the uk, I don’t think any government would have failed so utterly as the local and national authorities did with the floods in Valencia recently


So what’s with the smug superiority

[IBK]

I’m not even sure I hate Arteta (at times I feel hatred towards him) but I definitely feel zero gratitude towards him. He was brought in as a head coach and that’s what he should have stayed.

I think there’s a tendency towards unwarranted superiority amongst Iberians that gets my back up. Spain was a borderline failed state after Franco died, and it’s only because it’s been sucking at the teet of the EU for 40 years that it’s not in that state now. It’s a country that can’t have a honest national conversation over Franco and the extent of the butchery and cruelty that happened under him….in some circles in Spain he’s still treated like a national hero even though he drove the economy into the dirt and had countless people tortured and murdered.

This is a country that’s both economically and culturally fractured. Whatever we moan about the uk, I don’t think any government would have failed so utterly as the local and national authorities did with the floods in Valencia recently


So what’s with the smug superiority

Maybe the same reason as ours - once had a large empire? Also, I'm not sure there is any European country - least of all the UK - that has not indulged in butchery and cruelty at some sage in history?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Maybe the same reason as ours - once had a large empire? Also, I'm not sure there is any European country - least of all the UK - that has not indulged in butchery and cruelty at some sage in history?

We didn’t have a military dictator who killed probably millions of his own people over a forty year period, and if we did we wouldn’t be in a massive state of denial about it. You don’t have monuments to Hitler in Berlin or Mussolini in Rome and probably they are directly responsible for the deaths of far fewer of their own people than Franco is for his.

[Mac76]

I’m not even sure I hate Arteta

You've said just that countless times - that you do hate him

[dostoy]

I have not read all the stupid comments on here but had ANYONE actually mentioned a name of who they would like to see replace Arteta?

I couldn't care less about his personality and no-one here knows him personally.

Arsenal do need to buy some players though, including a striker.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have not read all the stupid comments on here but had ANYONE actually mentioned a name of who they would like to see replace Arteta?

I couldn't care less about his personality and no-one here knows him personally.

Arsenal do need to buy some players though, including a striker.

I don’t think a name is relevant. The importance of getting rid of Arteta is to ditch the manager role and appoint a head coach. Don’t let anyone try to turn the club into their personal fiefdom.

[dostoy]

You don't think a name is relevant!!!!!!!!!!

It is THE most relevant thing.

Name a name who you want to replace Arteta in whatever form you like.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You've said just that countless times - that you do hate him

Countless times ? I very rarely use the word hate in relation to a person (because most people aren’t worth that level of emotion). Now granted I’ve called him a cunt on numerous occasions, I’ve said I can’t stand him and what especially comes to mind is that I called him a cancer (which I thought important to recall especially as you objected so much to it :lol:). But and I’m not denying I’ve said it all…it probably was in a moment of anger. And on balance I think I strongly dislike him more than Hate.
People I hate I actually want them to die, I don’t hate you because although I wouldn’t give a fuck if you did die I don’t actively wish your demise…and that’s much the same with Arteta. I don’t think you’re a cancer either, you’re more like a sebaceous cyst.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You don't think a name is relevant!!!!!!!!!!

It is THE most relevant thing.

Name a name who you want to replace Arteta in whatever form you like.

No that’s where you’re wrong. It’s not

We aren’t in the days of Bill Shankly, Bertie Mee, Brian Clough anymore. If a club has the right player, as long as you don’t have a complete cretin in charge and someone ideally who has enough reputation in the game as a player that big egos will respect that person…it doesn’t matter that much.

[Letters]

I don’t think a name is relevant.
I actually agree with this.
When I opine that Arteta isn't going to get us over the line of winning a league table people always say "but who do you get in?"
It is a reasonable question but not one I feel I have to have an answer to for my assertion about Arteta to be correct.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I actually agree with this.
When I opine that Arteta isn't going to get us over the line of winning a league table people always say "but who do you get in?"
It is a reasonable question but not one I feel I have to have an answer to for my assertion about Arteta to be correct.

Very different reasons then. I think a head coach is a functionary. Does training, does basic tactics, massages the right egos and has just about enough brain cells to do in game substitutions. The setup and philosophy of the club is not for him to determine, nor the players the club bring in…at most the head coach can sit in on meetings to offer an opinion on transfer strategy.

[dostoy]

He has to be replaced though if he is sacked, which of course won't happen.

I cannot believe that there is no-one that can come up with a name.

Would you rather have Potter or Steve Cooper as manager / Head coach of Arsenal?

[HCZ_Reborn]

He has to be replaced though if he is sacked, which of course won't happen.

I cannot believe that there is no-one that can come up with a name.

Would you rather have Potter or Steve Cooper as manager / Head coach of Arsenal?

If I start discussing names I’m undermining my own argument. Promote someone from within for all I care, If they have a relationship with the players and don’t have an ego so big it has its own gravitational pull

[dostoy]

Can anyone come up with a name who they would rather see as manager or head coach of Arsenal rather than Arteta?

If no-one can then STFU.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Can anyone come up with a name who they would rather see as manager or head coach of Arsenal rather than Arteta?

If no-one can then STFU.

Would it help you if the point was made for you using glove puppets

Get rid of Arteta, scrap the manager role, de-centralise the decision making process

No good comes when anyone be it Wenger or Arteta start a power grab and taking more responsibility for the running of the club themselves

[dostoy]

If you can't come up with a name for his replacement then your whole argument is hollow.

Arteta will be staying for at least a year or two yet anyway.

Get over it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

If you can't come up with a name for his replacement then your whole argument is hollow.

Arteta will be staying for at least a year or two yet anyway.

Get over it.

Less Hollow than your head I fear

Depends, if he finishes outside the top 4 he’s done. Tom Selleck won’t want the value of his cash cow to depreciate.

[dostoy]

You still can't come up with a name!!!!!

How pathetic you are.

You live on here, you're obsessed with Arteta but you cannot think of anyone you want to replace him.

Get a fucking life you incredibly sad little man.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You still can't come up with a name!!!!!

How pathetic you are.

You live on here, you're obsessed with Arteta but you cannot think of anyone you want to replace him.

Get a fucking life you incredibly sad little man.

You forgot to end with Trust the Process

I actually tried to patiently explain to you why I don’t regard a name as relevant. Oh who would do a better job? It’s about changing the structure of the club so that the job Arteta has no longer exists. Then as I say even if we promoted from those amongst the current staff it wouldn’t be a big deal. You don’t agree clearly, you don’t have to….but please if you can’t comprehend don’t pretend like I’m being unreasonable

[HCZ_Reborn]

In theory, in what i envisage. Arteta could stay if he agreed to give up the role of manager and go back to being a head coach. And gave up the absolute power he had on deciding transfers and tactics…the scrapping of the inverted fullback and the Xhaka role would be non negotiable.

I don’t think he’d agree to this

[dostoy]

Change the structure to whatever you like.

Give me a name who you want to be in charge?

Its very easy to say you want Arteta out but surely you have to come up with a name to replace him.

How is that so difficult for you to understand?

[dostoy]

Someone, anyone, come up with a name.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Change the structure to whatever you like.

Give me a name who you want to be in charge?

Its very easy to say you want Arteta out but surely you have to come up with a name to replace him.

How is that so difficult for you to understand?

Tell you what, earn your coaching badges and agree to the terms I’ve set out and I’ll name you

Do you see the point I’m making.

[dostoy]

So literally anyone who is qualified would do a better job than Arteta.

How stupid are you?

You need something else to occupy your time.

I don't have the time to spend arguing with you fucking idiots.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So literally anyone who is qualified would do a better job than Arteta.

How stupid are you?

You need something else to occupy your time.

I don't have the time to spend arguing with you fucking idiots.

Don’t blame me for your limited thinking

Managers don’t have this magical power you ascribe to them, their ability to effect positive change is limited. Their ability to do damage with their ego however is limitless.

I don’t want any big names polluting things with their egos and galaxy brained tactics. We have the core of a very good team, we need an additional winger, a creative midfielder and a striker and to clear out some of the dead wood.

What we need is someone who works as part of a team and shares duties and responsibilities. No more square pegs in round holes, no more stubbornness. Just keep it simple

I’m sorry you can’t understand that and obsess about names as if it’s a fashion brand.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Can anyone come up with a name who they would rather see as manager or head coach of Arsenal rather than Arteta?

If no-one can then STFU.

:gp::gp::gp: Mate, you've probably made the best chain of posts I've seen on GWEB for what feels like a generation and honestly you deserve to be GOATed

Now I had accused our resident "sad little man" of subconsciously not wanting Arteta out, but the lack of proper responses to your post just reveals that a lot of us fans are guilty of the same offence....and TBH I have to include myself in this group too.

Now, there is something else I need to point out before trying to answer your question, which is that the way you are haranguing HCZ is almost a carbon copy of the way Letters (and other AW-forever members of yesteryears) use to come at anti-AW posters on this site, before he eventually changed his mind (oh and TBF he did the haranguing with a lot more finesse and less grunting than you are showing ATM :lol: ).

Anyway, I remember when having to give a name to Letters (or another AW-forever poster), among the options I mentioned at that time was Jurgen Klopp, and that was before Liverpool got interested (as I had been a fan of Dortmund in the 90s so I had kept following them for a bit). Obviously, he later joined Liverpool and we all know the story from there.

I also noticed Letters response to your "challenge" and I couldn't help but smile, as I do remember Zim replying to Letters in similar fashion (i.e. "naming names is not necessary") and getting beat downs like you are now dishing out :lol:

So back to your question, if we are really serious of getting rid, we should be discussing names by now. I mean look at the Hammers, it's only been about 2 months the fans realized they didn't like Julien's brand of football and straight away we started hearing whispers like Potter and even calls for Moysie's return!!

Imagine, this thread was started over 3 years ago and still we are struggling to name names. TBH its the same for most of goonerdom, we're really not ready to say goodbye to Arteta and I believe there are many reasons for that, though I still think "fear" trumps them all. Or what else could be keeping us this petrified when most of us freely admit we are not even enjoying the football yet we still can't clearly grab our balls and say "sayanora" to Arteta.

Anyway, if you asked this question anywhere fans are assembled, you are likely to get the same responses you are getting on here right now, which is zilch.

So to answer your question directly, I'd love us to at least try and sound out the hottest manager soon to be available, Alonso, and yes I know he is likely going to Madrid next season, but we've not even tried (sounds familiar right).

But yeah, he's likely off to Madrid, so that leaves me with my number one option. It's the same guy I wanted to take over from AW initially, the same guy I wanted to take over from Emery, and the same guy I still believe could take over from Arteta and give us Slot like results (i.e. win titles at the first time of asking, seeing as he has done that a few times already), Carlo Ancelotti.

He's not going to weaken our defence. He's not going to get into stupid spats with young players. He believes in strikers and the need to have good ones at your disposal. He's accustomed to managing young talents and not running them into the ground. He's also not going to want to stay here for an eternity making excuses as he's old enough to be looking for his last hurrah so we can learn to build and demand a proper culture of accountability from our future managers .... frankly IMO there is no coach in the world that has a better CV and is a better fit for us ATM, especially if we are serious about winning the EPL and the CL with this current team . I mean this is a proven winner, a guy that has almost as many top titles (as a player and manager) as we do as a club, and we're a 137 years old apparently!

But we could keep on the way we are going, Chaka Khaning Arteta with "Ain't Nobody Loves Me Better", while other clubs keep winning titles with coaches we never heard of and the occasional Ancelotti type managers.

Past my bedtime now, but hopefully others will point out their preferred options in the morning and this thread can be taken seriously again.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

One more stat to leave us with, Arteta was appointed almost 5 years ago and out of the 91 other teams in the league at that time, 89 have changed their managers.

BTW, from that lot it's only Citeh and Brentford that have managers that have served longer than Arteta has with us.

To think that even Citeh fans have started whispering and we still can't name names.

[Letters]

I also noticed Letters response to your "challenge" and I couldn't help but smile, as I do remember Zim replying to Letters in similar fashion (i.e. "naming names is not necessary") and getting beat downs like you are now dishing out :lol:
I'm not saying naming names is irrelevant, but I don't think I personally have to know who would be better to think we should move on from Arteta. I'm not 100% sure I do think that although I'm leaning that way. To me the only relevant questions are:

1) Do we want to win a PL title or a CL? That's a big "yes" from me.
2) Is that a realistic ambition? Again, I'd say yes - we're one of the biggest clubs in the country and the whole point of the stadium move was to compete with the best in Europe.
3) Is Arteta the man to achieve that ambition?

Well that's a trickier one, isn't it? He's got no real pedigree at this level, he's never landed the biggest prizes for any club - although he's young so maybe that's unfair. And he's certainly taken us a long way. We were a shambles when he took over and now we are credible contenders. 2 seasons ago we fluffed our lines but I can forgive that as a title challenge wasn't expected. Last season we didn't fluff our lines, had we not been up against the utter machine that is City (who, let's face it, are cheats - morally if not legally), we'd have cruised to the title. The question is can Arteta get us over the line. Obviously we don't know for sure, this season is feeling like a slog so far but it actually did for the first half of last season. And we're actually in a pretty similar position to this time last year. Points wise it's exactly the same. We were 5 points off Liverpool this time last year - it's 6 this year and they have a game in hand. But they have harder games and a fixture pile up to come. They're surely going to wobble at some point. Whether we are the ones to capitalise remains to be seen. We'll have to assess things at the end of the season - another opinion I used to be routinely lambasted for in the dying days of the Wenger era, something which I always found irksome as it's so obviously correct that you assess things at the end of a season not in the middle of it! But if we don't win the title this year, if Liverpool are the ones to capitalise to City dropping off, then one would have to question whether Arteta is the man to get us over the finishing line. We've been the only side to push City in the last 2 years, last year we pushed them to the final day. If City drop off and Liverpool nip in then that would be massively frustrating.

The difference with Wenger was his record with us, he had been there and done it and landed us the biggest trophies. I was never "AW forever", but obviously that record made me more (and I'd concede too) patient with him. If someone says "Arteta out" then "well who in?" is the obvious next question. If someone thinks Arteta can't land us the biggest trophies then who can? It is a good question but it's not one I think someone has to have an answer for to hold the "Arteta out" opinion. With Wenger people were saying stupid things like "anyone would do better". It was obvious bollocks - although I think I was too patient with Wenger, I will never concede he was as bad as some of the idiots on here were claiming. His last season was his worst, we finished 6th. If that's the worst you do in 20 years then you can't be that bad. Emery showed that "anyone would be better" is bollocks. And that's another thing - Emery is clearly a good manager but for whatever reason it didn't work out with him at Arsenal. Maybe he wasn't given enough time, but it didn't seem to be a good fit.

TL;DR - I don't think having no ready made answer to "who in?" invalidates an "Arteta out" opinion. I am personally leaning towards Arteta out but obviously we'll have to see how this season pans out. And I continue to not really understand HCZ's weirdly personal reasons for wanting him out.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I often feel like I’m made to feel responsible for other people’s lack of basic comprehension. I’m not a teacher, what you fail to grasp is not on me.

Basically if I liked Arteta on a personal level, I’d be more inclined to give him leeway….before the last few years I arguably gave Wenger more leeway than he deserved.

Two years ago I said what I said about Arteta under the clearly wrong assumption that it was obvious. That somehow you didn’t need to be bombastic like Mourinho for people to know that you’re a cunt. But apparently people do need to be led by the nose.

Now the argument is, does it matter if he’s a cunt? Well no if he’s winning things. But if he’s not, I’m more inclined to find those thinks I dislike about him even more grating

[Marc Overmars]

Definitely don’t think names are needed if you are of the opinion that we need a change of coach. The people in charge take home millions to make these decisions.

It’s like saying we need to sign players, ok then, who? Plenty of players settle quickly and start delivering, sometimes players we’ve never heard of or players that we don’t rate. It’s doing nothing that will ultimately yield the same outcomes over and over.

[Letters]

Basically if I liked Arteta on a personal level
Is there an echo in here? You don't know him on a personal level.


Now the argument is, does it matter if he’s a cunt?
I mean, firstly he isn't one. That's just some weird Frank Grimes think you have against him because he folded his arms on a reality TV show or some nonsense like that.


Well no if he’s winning things. But if he’s not
We are half way through the season. I wouldn't put any money on us landing a major trophy this year but half way through a season which has been very similar to the first half of last season is not a sensible point to judge a season. I'm leaning towards Arteta out on the basis that I'm not convinced he'll land us a PL or CL, but obviously May is the time to reassess that.
I don't know how I'll feel if we fall short again, but it's moot anyway as I don't think he's going anywhere unless we properly crash and burn.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Is there an echo in here? You don't know him on a personal level.


I mean, firstly he isn't one. That's just some weird Frank Grimes think you have against him because he folded his arms on a reality TV show or some nonsense like that.


We are half way through the season. I wouldn't put any money on us landing a major trophy this year but half way through a season which has been very similar to the first half of last season is not a sensible point to judge a season. I'm leaning towards Arteta out on the basis that I'm not convinced he'll land us a PL or CL, but obviously May is the time to reassess that.
I don't know how I'll feel if we fall short again, but it's moot anyway as I don't think he's going anywhere unless we properly crash and burn.

Don’t be obtuse you know full well what I mean. Personal level as in the person’s personality. If you don’t understand how someone betrays their character and personality in what they say and how they say it…I don’t know frankly how you’ve got through life. Do you think if someone smiles that always means they are happy?.

I wouldn’t mind if you just said “I don’t see what you’re seeing” or even “I don’t agree”.

Also there’s loads of strawmanning going on, the reason I don’t like him is because he’s a passive aggressive arrogant prick with no personality. Not because he folds his arms and can’t maintain eye contact….those were the physical cues I used as examples to suggest he wasn’t a people person (which I honestly think you need to be in that job) and perhaps evidence of him being on the autistic spectrum.


Honestly I’ve got to the age of 41, and I didn’t think it would need explaining that someone doesn’t need to be a scenery chewing ranter for someone to see there’s something not right about someone. Maybe if I was talking about Guardiola who has a lot of the same negative attributes in terms of being passive aggressive you’d have less trouble accepting it

[Mac76]

Definitely don’t think names are needed if you are of the opinion that we need a change of coach. The people in charge take home millions to make these decisions.

It’s like saying we need to sign players, ok then, who? Plenty of players settle quickly and start delivering, sometimes players we’ve never heard of or players that we don’t rate. It’s doing nothing that will ultimately yield the same outcomes over and over.

Yes none of us (I assume) are experts in football across Europe and beyond to single out the best new manager (though I do agree with HCZ that we should revert to the 'head coach' model - making Arteta full manager was a big mistake).

I actually think Amorim will come good in the end at Man Ure and we need to be looking at people like that.

Letters is right, Arteta has done a lot of good things in terms of rebuilding trust and building a team cohesion, but maybe that's all he has for us and to actually be at the top, rather than also-rans, it’s now maybe someone else's job to add to that work

The trouble with Arteta is it's not a case of him gaining more experience, he's just so stubborn and cautious that I’m not sure that will ever change, at least not as long as he's here - ironically I could see him going elsewhere and using that shift to move himself on, but it’s happening too slowly here, if at all – he’s wedded to control and defensive players over attack and quick transition and it's making us turkeys.

I really think top four (and yes that is very important) is in real danger now, with Newcastle, Citeh, Forest and Chelsea at the very least genuine challengers to unseat us – losing CL would be a disaster, players like Saliba might go elsewhere and it would be harder to recruit, not to mention the loss of income.

For that reason, those who want Arteta to go should want us to do really badly from here on, as if we lose top four then the Kroenkes will take a long hard look at Arteta.

I don’t really want that bad run to happen though, because I’m an Arsenal fan and don’t want to see us lose game after game, but there’s a real danger of it now.

I think we’re about to hit a real dip but let’s see, Arsenal have pulled it out of the bag before, but some attacking recruits and a change of mindset from Arteta are crucial – the first has to be a real possibility, the second I fear not so much…

[HCZ_Reborn]

And the last point is academic. We all know that Arteta won’t be moved on unless we finish outside the top four, and I tend to think the teams below us will knee cap each other

But the whole discussion is academic. We aren’t predicting what we think will happen. We are saying what should happen

I think what are clearly Arteta’s negative personality traits…..most of all his monstrous ego are the reason for our failing. I think Guardiola is largely the reason why City went through that horrendous run.


We’ve spent a lot of money to indulge this behaviour. Why I think names are irrelevant is because I don’t think the coach is even that relevant a role. For Real Madrid, they won countless European cups even though the players despised Zidane.


With us, whilst I think the squad is good it’s not good enough to be left to its own devices and be over coached by an egomaniac. It’s not just about player positions, it’s about player temperaments. Any player with any hint of personality or character could not work for someone like Arteta because they’d find the atmosphere stifling. Saka is a good lad but he’s far too laidback to make a beef, Odegaard is a paper tiger. It’s all too easy to over coach them and erase any sense of individuality where players will step up, take personal responsibility and try and make something happen by themselves.

[Mac76]

Any player with any hint of personality or character could not work for someone like Arteta because they’d find the atmosphere stifling. Saka is a good lad but he’s far too laidback to make a beef, Odegaard is a paper tiger. It’s all too easy to over coach them and erase any sense of individuality where players will step up, take personal responsibility and try and make something happen by themselves.

Arteta got rid of anyone with personality, except Xhaka and as I say he was a teacher's pet

[HCZ_Reborn]

Arteta got rid of anyone with personality, except Xhaka and as I say he was a teacher's pet

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/66/CrumbLaugh.jpg

[IBK]

We didn’t have a military dictator who killed probably millions of his own people over a forty year period, and if we did we wouldn’t be in a massive state of denial about it. You don’t have monuments to Hitler in Berlin or Mussolini in Rome and probably they are directly responsible for the deaths of far fewer of their own people than Franco is for his.

If I understand you correctly, you don't like Arteta because he is arrogant; you link this arrogance to the superiority of Spanish people, and you are citing as an example of this an alleged state of denial in Spain over Franco. You deny my suggestion that any cultural feeling of superiority in Spain may (as it is in the UK), may be linked to it once being a powerful colonial power - a perfectly reasonable suggestion - by drawing a distinction between the UK - that had not had a direct military dictator (albeit that Cromwell's Protectorate comes close) and Spain. Yet unless you have issues with Germans; Italians; Chinese; many Africans etc who have also suffered dictatorship then I fail to see this point.

I also have issues with your suggestion that somehow all Spaniards are Franco apologists or deniers. I have lived there and while there is a sense of shame and maybe a traditional reluctance to think about the horrors of the Franco era (it only of course ended very recently in 1975) there are few who either admire or exonerate him. Further, just like in this country, where we have traditionally been in denial over our imperial brutality, this is changing with the modern generation.

Bloody hell - even for on here this is off on a tangent on a football thread :wacko:

[HCZ_Reborn]

If I understand you correctly, you don't like Arteta because he is arrogant; you link this arrogance to the superiority of Spanish people, and you are citing as an example of this an alleged state of denial in Spain over Franco. You deny my suggestion that any cultural feeling of superiority in Spain may (as it is in the UK), may be linked to it once being a powerful colonial power - a perfectly reasonable suggestion - by drawing a distinction between the UK - that had not had a direct military dictator (albeit that Cromwell's Protectorate comes close) and Spain. Yet unless you have issues with Germans; Italians; Chinese; many Africans etc who have also suffered dictatorship then I fail to see this point.

I also have issues with your suggestion that somehow all Spaniards are Franco apologists or deniers. I have lived there and while there is a sense of shame and maybe a traditional reluctance to think about the horrors of the Franco era (it only of course ended very recently in 1975) there are few who either admire or exonerate him. Further, just like in this country, where we have traditionally been in denial over our imperial brutality, this is changing with the modern generation.

Bloody hell - even for on here this is off on a tangent on a football thread :wacko:

The point is, whilst a bit of a generalisation a tendency for those from Iberia (both Portugal and Spain) to have an undeserved sense of smug superiority. And I’m invoking the country’s history to suggest that they have nothing particularly to be smug about.

Germany and Italy had an internal reckoning about fascism in their countries, Spain is afraid to do so. That’s not saying the Spanish people support Franco…countless numbers of them are descendants of the victims of his regime. But they belong to a country that can’t be honest with itself about that time


Oliver Cromwell and the authoritarian Monarch were a thing long before universal suffrage. It’s not part of our modern history, and no I don’t think there is this smug superiority about being British. Both the right and the left seem to be in a non aggression pact to tear this country down. And the bellicose imbeciles have always been a minority, patriotism has always been seen as passé amongst the educated classes and working class patriotism snubbed and patronised.


I’ll grant you that this subject is going off at a tangent. It’s merely an observation and an observation you might find quite prevalent in South America who bore the brunt of Iberian superiority

[IBK]

Can anyone come up with a name who they would rather see as manager or head coach of Arsenal rather than Arteta?

If no-one can then STFU.

I couldn't agree more mate. You have owned this thread. Further it is even a question of coming up with aspirational names, but looking at the likelihood that any managerial change would improve a team that is currently second in league and has been for the previous 2 seasons. Of course it's possible, but the overwhelming likelihood is that it wouldn't - at least before a few more years of turmoil.

Does this mean that Areta couldn't be improved on - no. Does it mean that if we fall short of a trophy again this season, the club should not think of a successor? No. But this developing trend of 'grass is greeener' links justified criticism of our manager's shortcomings with a pipe dream that (mostly un-named) saviours will finish the job he set out to do. It also ignores the obvious fact that Arteta remains one of the best managers around.

As you point out, unless we finish outside the top 4 this season, there's no chance of Arteta being sacked by the club, so misgivings or not, we need to get over it.

[IBK]

I don’t think there is this smug superiority about being British.

...and yet this could not have been evidenced any more clearly with the Brexit vote.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Our way of reckoning with our colonial past is to instill a sense of guilt in white skinned kids about it. I know full well about the East India Company, the British opium wars with China, what we did in Kenya and South Africa as well as the Bengali famine.

I don’t especially feel responsible for any of that, colonial brutality was very much a thing of its time. Then again If people of Indian or Bangladeshi abstraction curse Churchill…well I can’t say I blame them.

I think History should be taught without a moral loadstone, teach what was without trying to suggest we should feel some way about it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

...and yet this could not have been evidenced any more clearly with the Brexit vote.

You think? I can only assume you haven’t spoken to many leave voters then

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

https://tribuna.com/en/news/arsenal-2025-01-09-edu-left-arsenal-because-he-was-unhappy-with-artetas-increasing-authority/

A few other blogs are carrying this story that the real reason Edu left was he couldn't stand that Arteta was getting too influential despite his lack of real success. Lets see what more comes out.

What I would say is that if fans don't clearly start showing discontent and start naming names we're going to struggle to push Arteta out, as we all agree that the Kronkes still don't get the culture and are only after the bottom line.

Without other independent minds on the board and the fans making a fuss, Arteta and stodgeball is going no where unless a car crash occurs, which realistically is not on the cards till Saka effs off or becomes ordinary.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I couldn't agree more mate. You have owned this thread. Further it is even a question of coming up with aspirational names, but looking at the likelihood that any managerial change would improve a team that is currently second in league and has been for the previous 2 seasons. Of course it's possible, but the overwhelming likelihood is that it wouldn't - at least before a few more years of turmoil.

Does this mean that Areta couldn't be improved on - no. Does it mean that if we fall short of a trophy again this season, the club should not think of a successor? No. But this developing trend of 'grass is greeener' links justified criticism of our manager's shortcomings with a pipe dream that (mostly un-named) saviours will finish the job he set out to do. It also ignores the obvious fact that Arteta remains one of the best managers around.

As you point out, unless we finish outside the top 4 this season, there's no chance of Arteta being sacked by the club, so misgivings or not, we need to get over it.

You’re an intelligent guy (I know it’s relative to people on here, most of whom if a plastic bag was put over their heads would asphyxiate before working out to take it off) surely you can see how vapid and superficial an argument that is?


Names don’t matter because Managers/Head coaches are functionaries or at least should be. If a squad is well assembled it largely manages itself. The idea of the manager being this mastermind Generalissimo is a very analogue one and exists only to keep the egos of men like Arteta inflated.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://tribuna.com/en/news/arsenal-2025-01-09-edu-left-arsenal-because-he-was-unhappy-with-artetas-increasing-authority/

A few other blogs are carrying this story that the real reason Edu left was he couldn't stand that Arteta was getting too influential despite his lack of real success. Lets see what more come out.

What I would say is that if fans don't clearly start showing discontent and start naming names we're going to struggle to push Arteta out, as we all agree that the Kronkes still don't get the culture and are only after the bottom line.

Without other independent minds on the board and the fans making a fuss, Arteta and stodgeball is going no where unless a car crash occurs, which realistically is not on the cards till Saka effs off.

Other independent minds? That would suggest you have an independent mind and aren’t the classic example of the emptiest vessel making the most noise.

I’m sorry to be blunt, but you’re literally so incapable of clear thinking that you become immensely threatened by anyone who differs from you to the point where you have to accuse them of holding a polar opposite point of view. That’s not the thinking style of an independent mind. That’s of a braying chest beating tribalist

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Other independent minds? That would suggest you have an independent mind and aren’t the classic example of the emptiest vessel making the most noise.

I’m sorry to be blunt, but you’re literally so incapable of clear thinking that you become immensely threatened by anyone who differs from you to the point where you have to accuse them of holding a polar opposite point of view. That’s not the thinking style of an independent mind. That’s of a braying chest beating tribalist

I am confused, did I get appointed on the board and miss the email :lol:

To simplify my post above, we can't really expect Arteta to sack himself nor the successor he names to take Edu's job, or can we... but please do go on being the rabid dog you've always been.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I am confused, did I get appointed on the board and miss the email :lol:

To simplify my post above, we can't really expect Arteta to sack himself nor the successor he names to take Edu's job, or can we... but please do go on being the rabid dog you've always been.

I wasn’t confused by your post, I simply had to point out that nothing qualifies you to describe yourself as an independent thinker (which I will admit that you inferred you were rather than explicitly stated)

As for Rabid Dog….did you have the mirrors in your house taken down?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I wasn’t confused by your post, I simply had to point out that nothing qualifies you to describe yourself as an independent thinker (which I will admit that you inferred you were rather than explicitly stated)

Man, you have serious issues.

How does one read that post and magically infer that it was about me calling myself an Independent thinker ..... anyway I appreciate the attention, but I really don't bat that way ;).

Also, like people keep suggesting, take a chill pill and read your diatribes, it's really like you're standing in the mirror trying to hurt yourself.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I wasn’t confused by your post, I simply had to point out that nothing qualifies you to describe yourself as an independent thinker (which I will admit that you inferred you were rather than explicitly stated)

As for Rabid Dog….did you have the mirrors in your house taken down?

Ah, you had to put the mirror reference yourself :lol:

Another ILT loading.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Man, you have serious issues.

How does one read that post and magically infer that it was about mecalling myself an Independent thinker ..... anyway I appreciate the attention, but I really don't bat that way ;).

Also, like people keep suggesting, take a chill pill and read your diatribes, it's really like you're standing in the mirror trying to hurt yourself.

Do you suffer from selective memory ? Presumably you must not remember the Tantrums you threw over us not signing Mudryk or even the Rice deal taking too long. At least if I go off on one it’s about actual football results not the equivalent of collecting Panini stickers.

You keep inferring that my posts are a form of verbal pugilism, but the fact is although I use this site a lot as a distraction it can be frustrating to me how slow people are to understand. I’m not one of these people that would have the patience to teach a chimp sign language, but that feels at time exactly what I’m expected to do.

[IBK]

You think? I can only assume you haven’t spoken to many leave voters then

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/05/11/brexit-is-not-only-an-expression-of-nostalgia-for-empire-it-is-also-the-fruit-of-empire/

There is clearly a case to be made. Like everything there are counter arguments, but it's a persuasive argument to say that our exit from Europe was driven by voters' desire to 'making Britain great again'.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

You keep inferring that my posts are a form of verbal pugilism, but the fact is although I use this site a lot as a distraction it can be frustrating to me how slow people are to understand. I’m not one of these people that would have the patience to teach a chimp sign language, but that feels at time exactly what I’m expected to do.

WTF did the initial post you referenced have to do with you or me??

My only guess is that what affects your mind is some sort of new sexual deviancy that is yet to be named, just like a replacement for Arteta ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

WTF did the initial post you referenced have to do with you or me??

My only guess is that what affects your mind is some sort of new sexual deviancy that is yet to be named, just like a replacement for Arteta ;)

If you don’t know what it had to do with you, maybe you shouldn’t have posted it….and go back to flinging faeces about

I can only explain in so many ways, if you can’t make the bridge in understanding it’s really not my fault. I don’t suppose it’s anyones…it’s just that obviously in your case there was a cul de sac evolution went down


Sexual deviancy?. I don’t know anything about that. If you’re talking about yourself….usually it’s standard practice or was to castrate the intellectually feeble to stop them from procreating. So if you’re assuming that other men are coming on to you, maybe they were remiss when it came time to take away your nuts

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway I really have to go back to work, whilst this place is distracting. My old dog responded when I spoke to her by pining her ears back, slanting her head and wagging her tail and this is just reminding me of that, without any endearing quality.

[IBK]

You’re an intelligent guy (I know it’s relative to people on here, most of whom if a plastic bag was put over their heads would asphyxiate before working out to take it off) surely you can see how vapid and superficial an argument that is?


Names don’t matter because Managers/Head coaches are functionaries or at least should be. If a squad is well assembled it largely manages itself. The idea of the manager being this mastermind Generalissimo is a very analogue one and exists only to keep the egos of men like Arteta inflated.

I don't think it's vapid or superficial to point out that changing an excellent manager who has created a squad that you clearly acknowledge has been well assembled (though not perfect), and got us to a position that would be envied by most other clubs carries significant risk.

Do you think that Arteta will struggle to get a position at one of Europe's top clubs when he leaves? If so I have no doubt you will be proven wrong. If not then logically you have to acknowledge my point.

As for the idea that managers are merely 'functionaries' in the sense that a squad largely manages itself - really? If that's the case why haven't Chelsea walked the league recently - given the money they have spent? In fact, why is the actual position of every team in the league in 2024/25 different to its wage bill? To suggest that in any team sport management is effectively divorced from the talent of its manager is strethcing your argument beyond breaking point. Not to mention that it makes any discussion about Arteta's successor pretty pointless, and reduces it to 'anyone but Arteta'. Most clear minded Gooners can see the obvious flaw in this.

[Letters]

It also ignores the obvious fact that Arteta remains one of the best managers around.
Is that an obvious fact?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

If you don’t know what it had to do with you, maybe you shouldn’t have posted it….and go back to flinging faeces about

I can only explain in so many ways, if you can’t make the bridge in understanding it’s really not my fault. I don’t suppose it’s anyones…it’s just that obviously in your case there was a cul de sac evolution went down


Sexual deviancy?. I don’t know anything about that. If you’re talking about yourself….usually it’s standard practice or was to castrate the intellectually feeble to stop them from procreating. So if you’re assuming that other men are coming on to you, maybe they were remiss when it came time to take away your nuts

The only person in a cul de sac here is you, as you are clearly struggling to connect the dots nor explain your recent behaviour....but maybe I'm wrong and it's not sexual, maybe its a corrupted Tourette like malady you are afflicted with, who the hell knows.....but this is my last reply to you on this , so you can go on and have the last word (which we all know you need to, or you cease to exist :lol: )

[IBK]

Yes none of us (I assume) are experts in football across Europe and beyond to single out the best new manager (though I do agree with HCZ that we should revert to the 'head coach' model - making Arteta full manager was a big mistake).

I actually think Amorim will come good in the end at Man Ure and we need to be looking at people like that.

Letters is right, Arteta has done a lot of good things in terms of rebuilding trust and building a team cohesion, but maybe that's all he has for us and to actually be at the top, rather than also-rans, it’s now maybe someone else's job to add to that work

The trouble with Arteta is it's not a case of him gaining more experience, he's just so stubborn and cautious that I’m not sure that will ever change, at least not as long as he's here - ironically I could see him going elsewhere and using that shift to move himself on, but it’s happening too slowly here, if at all – he’s wedded to control and defensive players over attack and quick transition and it's making us turkeys.

I really think top four (and yes that is very important) is in real danger now, with Newcastle, Citeh, Forest and Chelsea at the very least genuine challengers to unseat us – losing CL would be a disaster, players like Saliba might go elsewhere and it would be harder to recruit, not to mention the loss of income.

For that reason, those who want Arteta to go should want us to do really badly from here on, as if we lose top four then the Kroenkes will take a long hard look at Arteta.

I don’t really want that bad run to happen though, because I’m an Arsenal fan and don’t want to see us lose game after game, but there’s a real danger of it now.

I think we’re about to hit a real dip but let’s see, Arsenal have pulled it out of the bag before, but some attacking recruits and a change of mindset from Arteta are crucial – the first has to be a real possibility, the second I fear not so much…

I agree with most of your post - but it's let down by hose who want Arteta to go should want us to do really badly from here on.

For all my caution about the reality of changing our manager - for me the odds are that this will not bring us the instant success we crave (bar very good luck with tiny pot of potential candidates) - I see and have ponted out what I think are Arteta's flaws many times. I am also wary about Arteta having too much power and a lack of counter to this - just as we saw with Wenger - and I see the force of HCZ's point about having a head coach rather than a manager.

I like your last line - this reflects what I think.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't think it's vapid or superficial to point out that changing an excellent manager who has created a squad that you clearly acknowledge has been well assembled (though not perfect), and got us to a position that would be envied by most other clubs carries significant risk.

Do you think that Arteta will struggle to get a position at one of Europe's top clubs when he leaves? If so I have no doubt you will be proven wrong. If not then logically you have to acknowledge my point.

As for the idea that managers are merely 'functionaries' in the sense that a squad largely manages itself - really? If that's the case why haven't Chelsea walked the league recently - given the money they have spent? In fact, why is the actual position of every team in the league in 2024/25 different to its wage bill? To suggest that in any team sport management is effectively divorced from the talent of its manager is strethcing your argument beyond breaking point. Not to mention that it makes any discussion about Arteta's successor pretty pointless, and reduces it to 'anyone but Arteta'. Most clear minded Gooners can see the obvious flaw in this.

Because the whole set up at Chelsea is a complete mess and whatever guy wants to self harm enough to take on that job is invariably the lightning rod when it goes wrong.

I’m not saying Anyone but Arteta, because there are clearly people out there with bigger egos than him. But the point is someone of that personality type wouldn’t take up the role of head coach because they would want to be the Daddy.

Nothing worthwhile is without risk, you would have to have a set up at the club that could accommodate the model I prescribe, and would be a case of getting the right people in all the key positions. What I’m trying to do (and obviously not succeeding at) is weening people off this idea of the Manager being this singular agent of change….i don’t think it has to be that way and it’s harmful when it is.

I even explained to the idiot getting cross with me yesterday evening that Arteta could do the job if he had it within him to swallow his pride, go back to being the head coach and be prepared to shit can his galaxy brained idiosyncrasies


I don’t think he’s capable of that though. That’s not even a dig at him…I wouldn’t be capable of it….id see it as an insult

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Is that an obvious fact?

With the money he has spent (and who he has spent it on) and the unconventional time we've given him to master his craft.... I must say the results so far don't suggest he is doing anything out of the ordinary.

[IBK]

I think so. When you look at European manager rankings he is consistently in the top 10 or even 5. Do you disagree?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Arteta needs to go not because he’s tactically inferior or anything like that but because he’s too convinced of his own superiority to be flexible. I think Guardiola equally suffers from this.

I think Arteta would succeed if he went somewhere where his clear negative attributes would be cancelled out by the quality of player he has at his disposal. But there’s no way he’d succeed at a club of our size that isn’t one of super clubs like Bayern or Real Madrid.

Guardiola similarly would have failed at Arsenal, I'm sure of it

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think so. When you look at European manager rankings he is consistently in the top 10 or even 5. Do you disagree?

I don’t know because as I say I’m utterly convinced that it’s pointless to rank managers, when the success they have is largely dependent on the club they manage. I suppose the difference is between managers who are totally incompetent and egotistical and ones who can do what their told.

I think though Klopp stands out as the best coach because he was in the title race so long last season with a team that had absolutely no right to be there, and what’s more he left the blueprint for someone to succeed in his stead when Man City collapsed and Arsenal glued their own dick to their belly.

[IBK]

Because the whole set up at Chelsea is a complete mess and whatever guy wants to self harm enough to take on that job is invariably the lightning rod when it goes wrong.

I’m not saying Anyone but Arteta, because there are clearly people out there with bigger egos than him. But the point is someone of that personality type wouldn’t take up the role of head coach because they would want to be the Daddy.

Nothing worthwhile is without risk, you would have to have a set up at the club that could accommodate the model I prescribe, and would be a case of getting the right people in all the key positions. What I’m trying to do (and obviously not succeeding at) is weening people off this idea of the Manager being this singular agent of change….i don’t think it has to be that way and it’s harmful when it is.

I even explained to the idiot getting cross with me yesterday evening that Arteta could do the job if he had it within him to swallow his pride, go back to being the head coach and be prepared to shit can his galaxy brained idiosyncrasies


I don’t think he’s capable of that though. That’s not even a dig at him…I wouldn’t be capable of it….id see it as an insult

See I don't disagree with most of what you say in this post. My point has always been that while solutions can look attractive in theory, the reality is that we need to be careful what we wish for. Your point about having to have the right set up, (not to mention good decision making as well as a significan't slice of luck) on a managerial/head coach appointment that sees us push on from here illustrates the number of things that the club would have to get right.

[IBK]

I don’t know because as I say I’m utterly convinced that it’s pointless to rank managers, when the success they have is largely dependent on the club they manage. I suppose the difference is between managers who are totally incompetent and egotistical and ones who can do what their told.

I think though Klopp stands out as the best coach because he was in the title race so long last season with a team that had absolutely no right to be there, and what’s more he left the blueprint for someone to succeed in his stead when Man City collapsed and Arsenal glued their own dick to their belly.

Maybe so - but as there is no other way 'objectively' to assess managers then anything else becomes meaningless because it is then simply a question of personal preference. Letters questioned whether it is obvious that Arteta is one of the best managers around. I think it is obvious - at least that he is regarded as such. And if rankings are not your thing, I ask again whether people think he would get a job at a top club if he left. Barring an utter implosion at Arsenal - which I don't think is going to happen - he almost certainly would.

[HCZ_Reborn]

See I don't disagree with most of what you say in this post. My point has always been that while solutions can look attractive in theory, the reality is that we need to be careful what we wish for. Your point about having to have the right set up, (not to mention good decision making as well as a significan't slice of luck) on a managerial/head coach appointment that sees us push on from here illustrates the number of things that the club would have to get right.

It does but for me it’s chemotherapy, kill or cure…there is no alternative at this point. Arteta is despite the objections to me using the word a cancer or more precisely a tumour, an obstructive mass. You’ve only to speak to my sister in law to know of the horrendous side effects cancer treatment had on her. But I don’t see any alternative. To say we should be grateful for where we are is malignant thinking. Our ambitions have to be limitless and our willingness to do what needs to be done to meet these ambitions also limitless.

Arteta as I said was given a green light to take the title when Rodri was injured, he stalled on the grid. The pressure was too much, and instead he’s blamed refereeing decisions and injuries.

He’s the Eddie Irvine in 1999 of premier league managers…there’s no Schumacher this time round but still going to fuck it up, and Liverpool are the Mikka Hakkinen…not great but they’ll take the title for a second time.

[Letters]

I think so. When you look at European manager rankings he is consistently in the top 10 or even 5. Do you disagree?

If that's what the European rankings say then it's a fact, not something I can agree or disagree with. Do I agree he should be in that top 5 or 10...I'm not super-convinced.
I would note that for decades England have been near the top of the world rankings with no sign that they'll do much of note in the finals of a tournament. I'm a bit sceptical of those kinds of rankings.
I don't know what they are based on but the money we've spent has to be factored in to any assessment of him.
It's like Pep. Sure, he's a good manager but he's not exactly done what, say, Clough did at Forest or what Santo is doing there now.
It's certainly possible to spend money without improving the team as Utd are showing to hilarious effect, but I'm not sure Arteta is working miracles.

[IBK]

If that's what the European rankings say then it's a fact, not something I can agree or disagree with. Do I agree he should be in that top 5 or 10...I'm not super-convinced.
I would note that for decades England have been near the top of the world rankings with no sign that they'll do much of note in the finals of a tournament. I'm a bit sceptical of those kinds of rankings.
I don't know what they are based on but the money we've spent has to be factored in to any assessment of him.
It's like Pep. Sure, he's a good manager but he's not exactly done what, say, Clough did at Forest or what Santo is doing there now.
It's certainly possible to spend money without improving the team as Utd are showing to hilarious effect, but I'm not sure Arteta is working miracles.

Firstly, the point you took issue with was whether Arteta was clearly an excellent manager. I've given as 'objective' a case as I can for this, that I think is sound. You can agree, disagree or (pedantically) claim that you you can't if this a fact, but these rankings are based on both facts and opinions. Nevertheless, they are an indication of what the football community thinks of managers' relative strenghts.

You know that I'm aligned with you re misgivings about whether Arteta can take us where we want to go...and agree that this has to be assessed at the end of the season. But I said that he was an excellent manager, not a generational one. Guardiola is generally regarded as one of the best of all time - and whether or not you disagree with this, he has certainly revolutionised football at times in terms of new tactics/ways to approach the game. Also, his 'greatness' is not generally regarded as diminished because of the funds he has had at his disposal.

Of course at its most basic, the team with the most talent is likely to be more successful, but even by this metric, Areta has over-performed, as we are 4th highest spenders (expenditure - not net spend) over a 5 years period (interestingly, this season we are 10th highest, only just above Nottingham Forest), so if we are assessiong our manager based on pure spending we are currently way exceeding the money table).

We also need to factor in the base we started at. This goes both for transfer fees - we were in such a mess when Arteta joined that we had completely to overhall our squad (unlike Citeh and Liverpool) and had dross that was difficult to shift (partly caused by years of under-performance that translates into player value). So merely looking at the figures creates a misleading picture. But also our manager. He was a rookie - and this has to be factored into his performance - which is the more impressive for this.

[Marc Overmars]

I think Arteta would definitely get a top job after us, I can see him at Madrid or Bayern, however that is perhaps more to do with the trend of hiring promising young coaches with perceived high ceilings. I mean, Kompany got the Bayern job and I don’t think anyone would say he’s a better coach than Arteta.

Arteta has done a very good job for us but I would stop short of saying a great job unless this journey ends in a league title which is looking highly unlikely, for this season anyway.

I don’t think we’ll know how good he really is until he works elsewhere. 5 years ago Pochettino left Spurs as one of the most highly regarded coaches in Europe but hasn’t done anything of note since.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I think so. When you look at European manager rankings he is consistently in the top 10 or even 5. Do you disagree?

Well according to UEFA Manager of the year awards, he's only been able to break into the top list, once in the last 5 years, which was the 02-03 campaign, which most people will agree was rightly deserved (his best campaign IMO).

He didn't break into the list last year (totally agree with this) but only 6 nominees were announced.

Interesting to note that across the years a lot of managers who made it into the list still got the sack or were pushed out and in the in the EPL we got names like De Zerbi, Solsjkaer, Tuchel, Moysie and Klopp.

Looking at past members of the list, it's likely he'd get a big club after leaving us as you suggested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Men%27s_Coach_of_the_Year_Award

[IBK]

Well according to UEFA Manager of the year awards, he's only been able to break into the top list, once in the last 5 years, which was the 02-03 campaign, which most people will agree was rightly deserved (his best campaign IMO).

He didn't break into the list last year (totally agree with this) but only 6 nominees were announced.

Interesting to note that across the years a lot of managers who made it into the list still got the sack or were pushed out and in the in the EPL we got names like De Zerbi, Solsjkaer, Tuchel, Moysie and Klopp.

Looking at past members of the list, it's likely he'd get a big club after leaving us as you suggested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Men%27s_Coach_of_the_Year_Award

There are various different rankings - from various sources (some more credible than others) - that have Arteta in the top ten (or even 5). I was trying to make the point that in teh wider football world he is well regarded as an excellent manager. As you point out, reputations can rise or fall, and I think that why this issue is one of the best debated points on GW for a while is that we can all see that we are at a crossroads with Arteta. Although this is all relative, we are currently in one of the trickiest situations he has been in under him.

[Mac76]

I don’t think there is this smug superiority about being British.

That's the most palpably ludicrous thing you've said so far and boy is there a high bar

[Mac76]

5 years ago Pochettino left Spurs as one of the most highly regarded coaches in Europe but hasn’t done anything of note since.

Yes and which proves he got lucky at spuds with a young and talented team which clicked, which I've consistently said dating back to the time

Perhaps the same happened with Arteta in the last two seasons, that may have been his Ponce golden era right then and there

[Mac76]

Because the whole set up at Chelsea is a complete mess

or rather has been a mess over the last couple of seasons but even then they brought in talented players, often younger ones, who are now starting to prove their worth under a manager who's up to the job

I'd swap half our team and manager for theirs right now tbh

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's the most palpably ludicrous thing you've said so far and boy is there a high bar

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/66/CrumbLaugh.jpg

[HCZ_Reborn]

or rather has been a mess over the last couple of seasons but even then they brought in talented players, often younger ones, who are now starting to prove their worth under a manager who's up to the job

I'd swap half our team and manager for theirs right now tbh
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/66/CrumbLaugh.jpg

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/05/11/brexit-is-not-only-an-expression-of-nostalgia-for-empire-it-is-also-the-fruit-of-empire/

There is clearly a case to be made. Like everything there are counter arguments, but it's a persuasive argument to say that our exit from Europe was driven by voters' desire to 'making Britain great again'.

I’ll do you the respect of assuming you understand the difference between wanting to make something “great again” and being bellicose about your own innate sense of superiority. Whilst I think these people were to a degree deluded or led up the garden path, the point is not belief in superiority it’s this sense of loss over what was compared to now what is. Often I think people are guilty of crying for the moon and thinking everything was somehow better at some nebulous time in the past. But it’s usually resulting from a sense of dispossession (economic or cultural)

If you compare the UK to any other country in terms of national pride, we really are very understated with it….largely because there is this middle class elitist attitude exemplified by Remain activists who regard patriotism as meandering between uncool and vaguely fascistic. It’s nothing new, the intellectual class that saw themselves as the vanguard of the left in the 1920s and 1930s right up to the Jeremy Corbyn’s of this world…whilst there is affectation of being sympathetic to the plight of the working class, it’s essentially patronising and paternalistic.

And ultimately when the working class turn against the left, it’s a case of them being called thick racist gammons

[HCZ_Reborn]

Although really I should say England more than Britain. Welsh and Scottish nationalism are actually treated as far less toxic than perhaps they should be. But if England was this triumphalist country and wasn’t actually in the main ashamed of flying the flag, there wouldn’t be this vaccum that the populist right parties have inhabited and at every moment cover their banal literature in images of the flag.

I have no doubt you’ve heard terms like flag shagger, and I can’t think of a term more sneering that accentuates more bile to anyone who thinks of this country in a positive way. The paradigm example of this was someone like Emily Thornberry tweeting an image of someone with an England flag on their van with utter mocking contempt. That’s a politician from a mainstream party, you would never get that anywhere else not with the Scottish Saltire, the Welsh dragon, the Irish or French Tricolour….and certainly not in the United States where they really wear their patriotism on their sleeves

And by the way I’m not going to cite Daily Mail rage bait articles where someone has apparently complained about the flying of the flag on St George’s Day. Because it most instances it’s utter bollocks, or taken out of context and the complainer has turned out to be some curtain twitching little Hitler

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

There are various different rankings - from various sources (some more credible than others) - that have Arteta in the top ten (or even 5). I was trying to make the point that in teh wider football world he is well regarded as an excellent manager. As you point out, reputations can rise or fall, and I think that why this issue is one of the best debated points on GW for a while is that we can all see that we are at a crossroads with Arteta. Although this is all relative, we are currently in one of the trickiest situations he has been in under him.

Yeah, I agree the wider football world think he's great, but like you also pointed out, reputations come and go quite easily. A simple example is what we did to Emery, we gave the kiss of death to his career when we sacked him, but he appears on that list at least twice after that.

Anyway, on your last point of this being a tricky situation, is it really?

I mean currently we are 2nd in the EPL and could still win it mathematically. We've scored more goals and defended almost as good as we did last season at this stage. WEe are doing pretty well in the CL and are apparently one of the favourites. We're in every competition and could still do the quadruple....:lol: (even I've got to laugh at that).

Looking at where we are currently, an outsider who is totally "independent" and maybe not too familiar with football culture, would find it strange that there is this level of discontent among the fanbase.

I feel if Citeh was where Liverpool is right now people would not be calling for Arteta to go.

I feel if Klopp had stayed and Liverpool had managed these same results, there would be still less people calling for Arteta to go.

Our rivals took a risk, changed things, some have continued to fail like (Man U and Spuds) while others are seeing massive benefits like Chelsea and Liverpool. The ones who have failed will keep trying to change things till they get it right..... I think it's clear what's eating us up...

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Lastly and clearly figuratively, it's Tuesday, Arterta is Martinelli, we've had that fast break and it's only him and the Newcastle keeper, one on one,.....why are we not celebrating this and doubting that he's going to score?

[KSE Comedy Club]

You don't think a name is relevant!!!!!!!!!!

It is THE most relevant thing.

Name a name who you want to replace Arteta in whatever form you like.

It's not our job to name replacements, that's up to the club to get it right.

Always hate these questions because they are stupid.

We can all see when things are not working and the manager is at fault - but why do any of us HAVE to name someone to replace them?

[KSE Comedy Club]

I couldn't agree more mate. You have owned this thread. Further it is even a question of coming up with aspirational names, but looking at the likelihood that any managerial change would improve a team that is currently second in league and has been for the previous 2 seasons. Of course it's possible, but the overwhelming likelihood is that it wouldn't - at least before a few more years of turmoil.

Does this mean that Areta couldn't be improved on - no. Does it mean that if we fall short of a trophy again this season, the club should not think of a successor? No. But this developing trend of 'grass is greeener' links justified criticism of our manager's shortcomings with a pipe dream that (mostly un-named) saviours will finish the job he set out to do. It also ignores the obvious fact that Arteta remains one of the best managers around.

As you point out, unless we finish outside the top 4 this season, there's no chance of Arteta being sacked by the club, so misgivings or not, we need to get over it.

He's owned the thread about as much as I own this message board.

What is with this ridiculous notion in the Arsenal fanbase, that no one can dare say they want 'X' gone (manager or player) without naming a suitable replacement as some kind of justification for their opinion?!
Honestly, it's fucking pathetic.

Ok I'll say Zidane - thank you very much, where do I collect my Arsenal F.C. pay check for £500,000 from?

But yeh sure, let's wait til the end of the season and see if we finish top 4, suck it up and get over it.
It'll only be another 10 years+ of winning nothing again.

[KSE Comedy Club]

https://tribuna.com/en/news/arsenal-2025-01-09-edu-left-arsenal-because-he-was-unhappy-with-artetas-increasing-authority/

What I would say is that if fans don't clearly start showing discontent, we're going to struggle to push Arteta out, as we all agree that the Kronkes still don't get the culture and are only after the bottom line.


Fixed it for you :good:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Is that an obvious fact?

I have the same question.

What are his qualifications that determine that fact?
He must have a pretty comprehensive list of honours.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I think Arteta would definitely get a top job after us, I can see him at Madrid or Bayern, however that is perhaps more to do with the trend of hiring promising young coaches with perceived high ceilings. I mean, Kompany got the Bayern job and I don’t think anyone would say he’s a better coach than Arteta.

Arteta has done a very good job for us but I would stop short of saying a great job unless this journey ends in a league title which is looking highly unlikely, for this season anyway.

I don’t think we’ll know how good he really is until he works elsewhere. 5 years ago Pochettino left Spurs as one of the most highly regarded coaches in Europe but hasn’t done anything of note since.

:gp: Spot on

[HCZ_Reborn]

That and as I’ve repeatedly stated, it’s reductive and misses the point

The point I feel is not that Arteta has missed out on the title because he’s tactically inadequate, it’s because he is risk adverse, egomaniacal and needs to control things.

Liverpool I can only think every day that their fans must pinch themselves in disbelief that not only have City collapsed but that we stalled on the grid. I cannot imagine any of the fan base felt confident when the greatest coach that club has had since Bob Paisley decided to call it quits, but then again we know Leicester City fans felt in 2015 that it was more likely that they’d be battling relegation than fighting for the title…strange things can happen.

I know I’ve dismissed the role of coach but I think there’s just no way I’d have been as dismissive of Liverpool if Klopp was there even with the squad that Salah, Jota and Van Dijk aside isn’t that impressive.

But still though, even with the HUGE drag factor of Arteta I did expect when the Rodri news dropped on 23rd September that as long as Arteta didn’t try to interfere we’d be champions in May. I think that sense of certainty dissipated a week or so later when I saw the team we put out against Southampton. It was clear to me that Arteta would interfere with almost capricious stupidity.

I was hoping I was wrong, but the Liverpool game, the Newcastle game (the away game not the league cup game I don’t care about nothing trophies) the Fulham game, the Everton game, The Brighton game. That’s 11 points that have been flushed down the shitter because of his hubris, his stubbornness and his incompetence.

I want him gone because to fail so spectacularly when we might never have a better chance to win the league again for a long time has to have consequences. Obviously he didn’t do it out of malice, but if you make a major mistake at work that costs the company millions it’s only fair that your job should be forfeit

So for me it’s less about who will take us forward and more about Justice.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Fixed it for you :good:

Thanks mate, but I preferred the way it was before.

Also, I think naming names does help speedup ending our relationship with Arteta. Its the same reason I (and everyone else) knows Anceloti is leaving Madrid this summer despite having a contract till 2026, it because Alonso's name keeps coming up over and over again.

Also, look at it like a proper relationship, its always easier for you to breakup and move on when you are certain of who is waiting in the wings. Also if your partner had self-respect and started hearing rumours, they'd drop you like a bad habit.....or mend their ways if they are the really desperate type.

Anyway, the philanderer wins in both situations :)

Probably why Madrid has been so successful.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have the same question.

What are his qualifications that determine that fact?
He must have a pretty comprehensive list of honours.

If Kompany can get the Bayern Munich job despite failing to understand that you can’t play the same kind of expansive football in the premier league that he did in the championship with the players available to him. It suggests to me that there’s no objective determination on what makes a good coach anyhow.

If the world was fair and reasonable, Arteta would be got rid of now and have as much chance of getting another managerial job as Nick Leeson had of getting another job in banking.

I don’t think it’s actually appreciated that this season has been an almost Barings Bank level fuck up

[Letters]

But still though, even with the HUGE drag factor of Arteta.
Hang on.
So...we got 89 points last season, our second best PL total ever and only one fewer than The Invincibles.
And that was WITH Arteta being a "HUGE" drag factor?
Holy shit! We'd have won every game without him!


Behave yourself.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hang on.
So...we got 89 points last season, our second best PL total ever and only one fewer than The Invincibles.
And that was WITH Arteta being a "HUGE" drag factor?
Holy shit! We'd have won every game without him!


Behave yourself.

I don’t know about winning every game but we might even have won the title if he didn’t spend the first few games of that season dicking around with experimental lineups and tactics.

When Arteta keeps things simple, doesn’t as I say try to interfere things can go well. Last season was largely a case in the second half not only of using the set pieces as a tactic but not trying to complicate things with galaxy brained tactics.

Of course it didn’t help when in April a journalist asked him whether he no longer considered Havertz a midfielder and his ego couldn’t handle it. I think that this ended up with Havertz back at number 8 again and us drawing with Bayern and losing to Villa.

That’s why he’s a Drag factor my dear sir.

[Letters]

I don’t know about winning every game but we might even have won the title if he didn’t spend the first few games of that season dicking around with experimental lineups and tactics.
We started last season fine in terms of results. It was probably Christmas where we buggered things up with those back to back defeats. But the response was fantastic and I can't really fault their efforts overall. If you think we got 89 points despite Arteta and with someone better we'd have got significantly more and won the title then you're crackers, frankly.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We started last season fine in terms of results. It was probably Christmas where we buggered things up with those back to back defeats. But the response was fantastic and I can't really fault their efforts overall. If you think we got 89 points despite Arteta and with someone better we'd have got significantly more and won the title then you're crackers, frankly.

We didn’t start last season fine at all, we ended up drawing home games to Fulham and Spurs because of Arteta’s tinkering. The football was also abject.

No not significantly more we only finished two points behind, but when you consider in years past that Liverpool broke 90 points twice and didn’t win the title, this we couldn’t have done any more bollocks rings hollow.

[Mac76]

you're crackers, frankly.

:gp:

[HCZ_Reborn]

:gp:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/66/CrumbLaugh.jpg

[KSE Comedy Club]

Thanks mate, but I preferred the way it was before.

Also, I think naming names does help speedup ending our relationship with Arteta. Its the same reason I (and everyone else) knows Anceloti is leaving Madrid this summer despite having a contract till 2026, it because Alonso's name keeps coming up over and over again.

Also, look at it like a proper relationship, its always easier for you to breakup and move on when you are certain of who is waiting in the wings. Also if your partner had self-respect and started hearing rumours, they'd drop you like a bad habit.....or mends their ways if they are the really desperate type.

Anyway, the philanderer wins in both situations :)

Probably why Madrid has been so successful.

Fair enough, whist I understand where you are coming from, it's not the be all, end all of the point of the matter. I just think it's a response used by fans against other fans to mask the issue at the time rather than all fans collectively acknowledging that there is a problem.

I would take Zidane personally as Ancelotti is getting on a bit now.

[KSE Comedy Club]

That and as I’ve repeatedly stated, it’s reductive and misses the point

The point I feel is not that Arteta has missed out on the title because he’s tactically inadequate, it’s because he is risk adverse, egomaniacal and needs to control things.

Liverpool I can only think every day that their fans must pinch themselves in disbelief that not only have City collapsed but that we stalled on the grid. I cannot imagine any of the fan base felt confident when the greatest coach that club has had since Bob Paisley decided to call it quits, but then again we know Leicester City fans felt in 2015 that it was more likely that they’d be battling relegation than fighting for the title…strange things can happen.

I know I’ve dismissed the role of coach but I think there’s just no way I’d have been as dismissive of Liverpool if Klopp was there even with the squad that Salah, Jota and Van Dijk aside isn’t that impressive.

But still though, even with the HUGE drag factor of Arteta I did expect when the Rodri news dropped on 23rd September that as long as Arteta didn’t try to interfere we’d be champions in May. I think that sense of certainty dissipated a week or so later when I saw the team we put out against Southampton. It was clear to me that Arteta would interfere with almost capricious stupidity.

I was hoping I was wrong, but the Liverpool game, the Newcastle game (the away game not the league cup game I don’t care about nothing trophies) the Fulham game, the Everton game, The Brighton game. That’s 11 points that have been flushed down the shitter because of his hubris, his stubbornness and his incompetence.

I want him gone because to fail so spectacularly when we might never have a better chance to win the league again for a long time has to have consequences. Obviously he didn’t do it out of malice, but if you make a major mistake at work that costs the company millions it’s only fair that your job should be forfeit

So for me it’s less about who will take us forward and more about Justice.

Whilst I understand and agree with those points to an extent, I would say the ending is where we differ.

I am more concerned with how we will improve going forward, ultimately being successful as a club and start winning trophies again.

Surely you looking for 'justice' is chasing a morality construct rather than a sporting one?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Whilst I understand and agree with those points to an extent, I would say the ending is where we differ.

I am more concerned with how we will improve going forward, ultimately being successful as a club and start winning trophies again.

Surely you looking for 'justice' is chasing a morality construct rather than a sporting one?

I want us clearly to do well going forward and I think Arteta is a barrier to that


What I’m saying is additional to that, failure has to have consequences. Even in criminal law people are liable for neglect.

And when a club doesn’t punish this failure, it’s telling us it’s ok it doesn’t matter. When it’s not ok

But then again I accept that this is all very Ernst Stavro Blofeld “this organisation does not tolerate failure” with all that entails - being kicked in the leg with poison tipped spiked shoes, being electrocuted by a booby trapped chair or stepping over a bridge that collapses half way across and falling into a swimming pool full of piranhas.

And whilst in the back of my mind these are all amusing ideas. I can’t rationally say Arteta actually deserves such an elaborate fate

[KSE Comedy Club]

I want us clearly to do well going forward and I think Arteta is a barrier to that


What I’m saying is additional to that, failure has to have consequences. Even in criminal law people are liable for neglect.

And when a club doesn’t punish this failure, it’s telling us it’s ok it doesn’t matter. When it’s not ok

But then again I accept that this is all very Ernst Stavro Blofeld “this organisation does not tolerate failure” with all that entails - being kicked in the leg with poison tipped spiked shoes, being electrocuted by a booby trapped chair or stepping over a bridge that collapses half way across and falling into a swimming pool full of piranhas.

And whilst in the back of my mind these are all amusing ideas. I can’t rationally say Arteta actually deserves such an elaborate fate

We probably don't have the budget for all those ideas of punishment anyway :)

[HCZ_Reborn]

We probably don't have the budget for all those ideas of punishment anyway :)

The upkeep of Piranha fish alone…

[IBK]

I want us clearly to do well going forward and I think Arteta is a barrier to that


What I’m saying is additional to that, failure has to have consequences. Even in criminal law people are liable for neglect.

And when a club doesn’t punish this failure, it’s telling us it’s ok it doesn’t matter. When it’s not ok

But then again I accept that this is all very Ernst Stavro Blofeld “this organisation does not tolerate failure” with all that entails - being kicked in the leg with poison tipped spiked shoes, being electrocuted by a booby trapped chair or stepping over a bridge that collapses half way across and falling into a swimming pool full of piranhas.

And whilst in the back of my mind these are all amusing ideas. I can’t rationally say Arteta actually deserves such an elaborate fate

People saying that Arteta has 'failed' to date are in my view being hysterical. Coming 2nd by 2 points last season against what was then arguably the best team in the world is not failure. This season is not, as yet, a failure.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The upkeep of Piranha fish alone…

Exactly, and a bridge that collapses half way...... urgh the sheer mechanics and maintenance!

[HCZ_Reborn]

People saying that Arteta has 'failed' to date are in my view being hysterical. Coming 2nd by 2 points last season against what was then arguably the best team in the world is not failure. This season is not, as yet, a failure.

I use the word failure very specifically to this season. Now I could be guilty of providing a post mortem far too soon. But I don’t think anyone realistically is expecting us to win the title now. We have of course the more favourable fixtures but we have horrendous injuries, attackers that are not performing and I’ve seen nothing that suggests we are learning from mistakes.

I leave the figurative fellatio being done on Liverpool to others. I specifically stated that 23rd September and the news that Rodri would be out for the season was our green light to win the title in May. There’s no guarantees in life, but in my view was more than an aspiration it was an expectation. Not that we could win the title but that we should win the title.


The past two seasons and what we did or didn’t achieve then isn’t relevant to me. It’s what we’ve failed to do this season

[Letters]

People saying that Arteta has 'failed' to date are in my view being hysterical. Coming 2nd by 2 points last season against what was then arguably the best team in the world is not failure. This season is not, as yet, a failure.

Agreed. I don't think Arteta has failed so far. I guess the question in my mind is can he get us over the line? That's the bit I'm struggling with, this season is feeling like a slog. That said as I've noted elsewhere, we were actually in a very similar position at this point last season, so...
I'm not convinced Arteta can land us the biggest trophies but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agreed. I don't think Arteta has failed so far. I guess the question in my mind is can he get us over the line? That's the bit I'm struggling with, this season is feeling like a slog. That said as I've noted elsewhere, we were actually in a very similar position at this point last season, so...
I'm not convinced Arteta can land us the biggest trophies but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

It’s not completely set in stone, but in my view failure to win the title is failure with a capital F. And whilst I haven’t fully conceded the title race as over, I am figuratively in the process of drafting a concession speech

Which I guess would make me a better person than Donald Trump in 2020

[Letters]

Which I guess would make me a better person than Donald Trump in 2020
That's the lowest bar since the one on the Titanic.

It is hard to see past Liverpool, but...as we've noted we've got the easier fixtures, they are surely going to have a wobble at some point. They're a Salah injury or dip in form away from that.
It ain't over till it's over #Rocky.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m thinking It Ain’t over till it’s over by Lenny Kravitz, which always for me feels like a tacit admission that it is in fact over….and just waiting confirmation

[Marc Overmars]

Bye.

[Letters]

Bye.

:lol:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Bye.

Are you going somewhere?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bye.

I’m imagining that was said in a Snake from the Simpsons voice

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway what id do if i was Kroenke and actually cared about the club

Get my idiot son on the next available Red Eye flight to London (if he’s not there already) and tell him to summon Arteta in tomorrow morning at London Colney, to tell him his contract has been terminated and that he has precisely one hour to pack up his stuff, say his goodbyes and get off the premises before he’s escorted off by security.

Then I’m bringing Rosicky (or someone like that) in as a caretaker for the rest of the season pending a search for a long term replacement.

I would instruct that if possible Nelson and Vieira are recalled from loan (Nelson might have the first touch of Lenny from Of Mice and Men but we need bodies at the moment) and a striker located and fees and wages sorted within the next three days (won’t be in time to play Spurs but get the guy here and registered for the Villa game).

On a personal level, I’d have the club stop playing that atrocious poorly written cringe my spine out song prior to matches. And have Win re-homed, because a training ground is a place of work not a petting zoo.

[Chippy]

Anyway what id do if i was Kroenke and actually cared about the club

Get my idiot son on the next available Red Eye flight to London (if he’s not there already) and tell him to summon Arteta in tomorrow morning at London Colney, to tell him his contract has been terminated and that he has precisely one hour to pack up his stuff, say his goodbyes and get off the premises before he’s escorted off by security.

Then I’m bringing Rosicky (or someone like that) in as a caretaker for the rest of the season pending a search for a long term replacement.

I would instruct that if possible Nelson and Vieira are recalled from loan (Nelson might have the first touch of Lenny from Of Mice and Men but we need bodies at the moment) and a striker located and fees and wages sorted within the next three days (won’t be in time to play Spurs but get the guy here and registered for the Villa game).

On a personal level, I’d have the club stop playing that atrocious poorly written cringe my spine out song prior to matches. And have Win re-homed, because a training ground is a place of work not a petting zoo.
Brilliant!! :clap:

[Globalgunner]

Arteta will be here a dozen years and wont win anything of value. Told you that 5 years ago. We will hopefully live to see the back of this clown. There is no there, there. Club leading the fans on a road to nowhere as always

[Letters]

Arteta will be here a dozen years and wont win anything of value. Told you that 5 years ago. We will hopefully live to see the back of this clown. There is no there, there. Club leading the fans on a road to nowhere as always

:lol: A very high percentage of managers fail anyway, and Arteta hasn’t been manager anywhere else, he had no pedigree at this level. You don’t get any spidey sense points for that “prediction”.
Overall he’s done pretty well. He’s made us into genuine contenders. We are the only side to have even challenged City for the last 2 seasons and last year we pushed them to the last day. We got 89 points, our second best in the PL, only one point off The Invincibles. Arteta hasn’t been the abject failure you presumably predicted.
That said, it seems increasingly clear that Arteta isn’t going to get us over the line. I bear him no ill will, but we do need to move on from him. Although I agree we probably won’t.

[Chippy]

I know that I am always guilty of bringing up this thread after we have been embarrassed by a mid table team. However, how long will the Krankees put up with Arteta? £750m spent and one FA cup. It's just not good enough.

[Letters]

I simultaneously think that Arteta should be sacked for not winning us the title this season - or at the very least making Liverpool work for it - and think that this isn't all his fault. He made some comments which sounded like he was somewhat frustrated at our lack of transfer dealings in January, this isn't all on him.
But enough of it is to make me think he should go. I don't think he's going to land us a big trophy.

[Niall_Quinn]

I simultaneously think that Arteta should be sacked for not winning us the title this season - or at the very least making Liverpool work for it - and think that this isn't all his fault. He made some comments which sounded like he was somewhat frustrated at our lack of transfer dealings in January, this isn't all on him.
But enough of it is to make me think he should go. I don't think he's going to land us a big trophy.

The summer window is on him and he let Auba go without replacing him, unless you consider Sterling as a replacement. Even then, he had from the summer to January to plan for the interim window. Yetit seemed we were scrabbling around at the last minute to sign Watkins. It's a bit like a guy driving towards a brick wall at speed but only taking action when the car hits the wall.

[Letters]

The summer window is on him
Is it, though?
I don't know the answer to that, but I thought that was Edu's job.
I'm sure Arteta gets to input into it, but he's not the one making the deals. This is not like back in the day when Fergie or Wenger would talk to someone directly, I'm not sure it works like that any more.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is it, though?
I don't know the answer to that, but I thought that was Edu's job.
I'm sure Arteta gets to input into it, but he's not the one making the deals. This is not like back in the day when Fergie or Wenger would talk to someone directly, I'm not sure it works like that any more.

It starts with the manager, he's got to build the squad. Edu and the executives aren't going to buy and sell players off their own backs, the primary consideration will be what the manager tells them he needs. There will be other considerations, like the finances, willingness of transfer targets to join, personal terms, etc, but it all starts with the manager. How did we end up with Sterling? The only way you can let Arteta off the hook for that one is if he was demanding a top quality forward but the people responsible refused. You could say they couldn't get anyone regardless of how hard they tried, but we used that excuse in the January window.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Is it, though?
I don't know the answer to that, but I thought that was Edu's job.
I'm sure Arteta gets to input into it, but he's not the one making the deals. This is not like back in the day when Fergie or Wenger would talk to someone directly, I'm not sure it works like that any more.

Well by all accounts it was Edu & Arteta that were responsible for transfer targets.

[Chippy]

I dont think that a point at Forest last night was a terrible result considering we have no strikers.

However, we need to keep an eye out over our shoulder for the pack chasing top four.

If we fail there, Arteta will certainly be gone in the summer.

[IBK]

I'm not sure you're right there mate. Arteta will (rightly) point to the injuries we have suffered as a reason, and I don't think there is any appetite from the owners or board to sack him whatever happens.

I think we will still make top four, given that we start getting players back next month. Even if we get draws in our next 4 games - that should still be enough.

I think we are 'stuck' with Arteta for another season...but if he fails to win the silverware next season, I think he will probably walk.

[Marc Overmars]

I dont think that a point at Forest last night was a terrible result considering we have no strikers.

However, we need to keep an eye out over our shoulder for the pack chasing top four.

If we fail there, Arteta will certainly be gone in the summer.

It wasn’t a bad result and we actually played fairly well all things considered. This is because we are still a good team and despite being incredibly underwhelming all season we have remained tough to beat and sit a comfortable 2nd.

Without a forward line though, there’s little chance of winning most games no matter how well we play and because of this I’m not certain about top 4 yet.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It wasn’t a bad result and we actually played fairly well all things considered. This is because we are still a good team and despite being incredibly underwhelming all season we have remained tough to beat and sit a comfortable 2nd.

Without a forward line though, there’s little chance of winning most games no matter how well we play.

This is what I’ve been saying all day, and I’m treated like I’ve been treading dog shit into the carpet in peoples living rooms

I even tried being nice. For all the good it did me :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I want Arteta to go because I don’t like him, I would say he’s passive aggressive but he’s been more plain aggressive in interviews of late when interviewers dare ask him if it’s just possible that lack of strikers might be contributing to our lack of goals. What a prick, he’s bare minimum partly responsible for this state of affairs…no point getting aggy with others for pointing to your own failings.

But I think barring a calamity we will qualify for the champions league next season, we still have very good players and we are only a few attacking signings and yes a very tactical tweaks away from being a team that can compete for the premier league and champions league. If I’m Stan Kroenke I’m probably not going to be making waves this summer.

But the patience of the fan base is not eternal, if we waste this summer like last summer and we have another season like this one. They will demand his head and although as I believe Mac has pointed out that there’s a large number of match going fans who will attend rain or shine (and I think that’s definitely true) I think there’s definitely a good chance another large group of fans will vote with their feet (especially if there is a season ticket hike and promises from the club turn out to be empty).

He’s not quite on thin ice, but the permafrost is diminishing

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I'm not sure you're right there mate. Arteta will (rightly) point to the injuries we have suffered as a reason, and I don't think there is any appetite from the owners or board to sack him whatever happens.

I think we will still make top four, given that we start getting players back next month. Even if we get draws in our next 4 games - that should still be enough.

I think we are 'stuck' with Arteta for another season...but if he fails to win the silverware next season, I think he will probably walk.

I don't believe Arteta's ego will allow him to voluntarily leave us under any condition that doesn't recognise he has been a success. What I mean is, he'd only leave us if he feels he has achieved what he came for and won a significant trophy with us, or a better job came calling.

Now IMO, the only team that could offer the latter to him based on his current achievements, and also fits the description of being "above us" is Citeh, and that's only if Pep walks, which is becoming more and more likely (Pep won't be sacked). The problem with this is that Citeh might be in the Championship by then due to the penalties they are likely to face.

So in short, I don't see any scenario where Arteta walks voluntarily, at this rate he'll need to be pushed out like Wenger.... in fact, that empty "over my dead body" line really felt deja vuish to me..... it was probably sent to him in their WhatsApp group :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

In fairness to Arteta (and I’ve no reason to be) I don’t think any manager would walk voluntarily. Most instances where a manager leaves the club by his own volition, it’s by “mutual consent” where an informal agreement is made where by the coach wavers the money he’d be owed for the rest of his contract in exchange for a one time pay off or there are personal reasons.

So yes you’re right, I don’t think Arteta will walk unless there’s an imminent offer from another club

[Mac76]

that empty "over my dead body" line really felt deja vuish to me..... it was probably sent to him in their WhatsApp group :lol:

that made me cringe, it's pathetic and will just make people laugh, a childish defiance that has no basis in reality, he should have said 'it's tough but we'll ceretainly keep fighting for every point' or something, just to show he does actually live on planet Earth

[HCZ_Reborn]

that made me cringe, it's pathetic and will just make people laugh, a childish defiance that has no basis in reality, he should have said 'it's tough but we'll ceretainly keep fighting for every point' or something, just to show he does actually live on planet Earth

Hmmm time for Comical Arteta t-shirts or is that reference too old for the kids ?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

In fairness to Arteta (and I’ve no reason to be) I don’t think any manager would walk voluntarily. Most instances where a manager leaves the club by his own volition, it’s by “mutual consent” where an informal agreement is made where by the coach wavers the money he’d be owed for the rest of his contract in exchange for a one time pay off or there are personal reasons.

So yes you’re right, I don’t think Arteta will walk unless there’s an imminent offer from another club

I think you are being overly generous to him in your first few lines.

I am a bit old school, and believe any manager that has real ties to a club and claims to be accepted like "family" should actually repay fans back by walking when he realises he can't give them what they want consistently.

I mean like when Liverpool was a dominant force and their coaches were from within, most of them seemed to resign at the top when they felt they couldn't take the pressure or simply got tired of winning.

Then we've got King Kev, who resigned from Newcastle twice. The first after unsuccessful title challenges (which he should really have won TBH) and the second time immediately after a transfer window when the board signed a player without his approval.

Probably I'm still a football romantic, but I believe if you've got cult status at a club because of either what you did for them in the past or current successes you've had with them, you owe it to the fanbase and more importantly yourself to leave when deep down you know you did your best and its clearly not good enough to achieve what people realistically expect.

When I think about it, maybe it more of a foreign thing where you refuse to go until you are sacked, I mean Mourinho had the same failing as Wenger in both his spells at Chelsea.

However I really do believe Pep will leave on his own volition just like Klop did to protect his cult status (and probably because he knows deep down, it's better for the club).

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think you are being overtly generous to him in your first few lines.

I am a bit old school, and believe any manager that has real ties to a club and claims to be accepted like "family" should actually repay fans back by walking when he realises he can't give them what they want consistently.

I mean like when Liverpool was a dominant force and their coaches were from within, most of them seemed to resign at the top when they felt they couldn't take the pressure or simply got tired of winning.

Then we've got King Kev, who resigned from Newcastle twice. The first after unsuccessful title challenges (which he should really have won TBH) and the second time immediately after a transfer window when the board signed a player without his approval.

Probably I'm still a football romantic, but I believe if you've got cult status at a club because of either what you did for them in the past or current successes you've had with them, you owe it to the fanbase and more importantly yourself to leave when deep down you know you did your best and its clearly not good enough to achieve what people realistically expect.

When I think about it, maybe it more of a foreign thing where you refuse to go until you are sacked, I mean Mourinho had the same failing as Wenger in both his spells at Chelsea.

However I really do believe Pep will leave on his own volition just like Klop did to protect his cult status (and probably because he knows deep down, it's better for the club).

What’s it Wenger once said to an interviewer tongue in cheek, in response to something cynical his Arsenal side had done during a game


“I don’t say you are too romantic but you are romantic”

Man he stayed too long, but I genuinely liked and still do like the guy

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

What’s it Wenger once said to an interviewer tongue in cheek, in response to something cynical his Arsenal side had done during a game


“I don’t say you are too romantic but you are romantic”

Man he stayed too long, but I genuinely liked and still do like the guy

We all do, no matter what he did, he's family, and no one can get away with saying anything less.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We all do, no matter what he did, he's family, and no one can get away with saying anything less.

I have no doubt even if he wins the title with us, Arteta won’t garner the same fondness as Wenger. Frankly he could win more than Wenger and that would be the case.

A bit like how Federer and Nadal will be more loved by Tennis fans than Djokovic even though Djokovic has the most grand slams

But, I’m also pretty sure that looking back in hindsight we probably won’t feel the animus and frustration. It’s like how every current prime minister is the worst prime minister ever.

This season will be forgiven if he comes good next season, but I think as IBK said he’s gonna have to come good. Because the general fan base that have been more patient with him than you, I or others have been……their patience isn’t inexhaustible.

[Mac76]

I think you are being overly generous to him in your first few lines.

I am a bit old school, and believe any manager that has real ties to a club and claims to be accepted like "family" should actually repay fans back by walking when he realises he can't give them what they want consistently.

I mean like when Liverpool was a dominant force and their coaches were from within, most of them seemed to resign at the top when they felt they couldn't take the pressure or simply got tired of winning.

Then we've got King Kev, who resigned from Newcastle twice. The first after unsuccessful title challenges (which he should really have won TBH) and the second time immediately after a transfer window when the board signed a player without his approval.

Probably I'm still a football romantic, but I believe if you've got cult status at a club because of either what you did for them in the past or current successes you've had with them, you owe it to the fanbase and more importantly yourself to leave when deep down you know you did your best and its clearly not good enough to achieve what people realistically expect.

When I think about it, maybe it more of a foreign thing where you refuse to go until you are sacked, I mean Mourinho had the same failing as Wenger in both his spells at Chelsea.

However I really do believe Pep will leave on his own volition just like Klop did to protect his cult status (and probably because he knows deep down, it's better for the club).

Arteta will only go when he's offered a 'better' job - I'm guessing it wouldn't immediately be Man City but something like PSG or Barcam, he might come back to Man City eventually though

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I have no doubt even if he wins the title with us, Arteta won’t garner the same fondness as Wenger. Frankly he could win more than Wenger and that would be the case.

A bit like how Federer and Nadal will be more loved by Tennis fans than Djokovic even though Djokovic has the most grand slams

But, I’m also pretty sure that looking back in hindsight we probably won’t feel the animus and frustration. It’s like how every current prime minister is the worst prime minister ever.

This season will be forgiven if he comes good next season, but I think as IBK said he’s gonna have to come good. Because the general fan base that have been more patient with him than you, I or others have been……their patience isn’t inexhaustible.

Well I really do hope your last paragraph turns out right, at least for all our sakes.

Everytime I think of Arteta as some sort of cult hero, I remember what Zim use to say on here, about how he had an "average" playing career here and can't help but giggle a bit.... but another funny thing is he actually got a lot of injuries while he played for us, which a lot of people (including him apparently) seem to forget.

Anyway, has anyone noticed, apparently Cesc is getting rave reviews at Como presently... he seems to be having a Bournemouth fairytale there and the Italian press is really loving his brand of football....well that might not be saying much with most of their teams crashing out of Europe this season :lol:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Arteta will only go when he's offered a 'better' job - I'm guessing it wouldn't immediately be Man City but something like PSG or Barcam, he might come back to Man City eventually though

Well you might be on to something as he does have a history with both of those clubs....but I still feel he's odds on to succeed Pep, especially if Pep has a say in it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well I really do hope your last paragraph turns out right, at least for all our sakes.

Everytime I think of Arteta as some sort of cult hero, I remember what Zim use to say on here, about how he had an "average" playing career here and can't help but giggle a bit.... but another funny thing is he actually got a lot of injuries while he played for us, which a lot of people (including him apparently) seem to forget.

Anyway, has anyone noticed, apparently Cesc is getting rave reviews at Como presently... he seems to be having a Bournemouth fairytale there and the Italian press is really loving his brand of football....well that might not be saying much with most of their teams crashing out of Europe this season :lol:

I saw an Athletic video about how Fabregas sets his teams up to play, curiously for someone who was a progressive forward playing midfielder, there is caution and defensiveness. Which means they don’t score many goals but they are tough to beat. That’s fine in Italy, it’s what they are used to. Of course I’ve never seen even clips of Como play, but should things go south with Arteta I wouldn’t be massively surprised if we are not at least linked with Fabregas as a potential replacement

[HCZ_Reborn]

So just looking at the Table in Italy now

Como are 13th in the table 7 wins, 7 draws and 12 defeats

32 goals scored, 41 conceded


I wouldn’t say exactly watertight defensively, but I suppose for a team like that in 26 games it’s not terrible either

They beat Napoli on Sunday to stop them going back top of the table which is quite an impressive achievement

To clarify all this is from a two minute Google search, I didn’t even know Fabregas was in management until a week or so ago :lol:

[Mac76]

Well you might be on to something as he does have a history with both of those clubs....but I still feel he's odds on to succeed Pep, especially if Pep has a say in it.

I'm not sure, out of loyalty, he would go straight to Citeh from Arsenal - Pep has talked about how Arteta was happy when City beat any other team, but not Arsenal

But I don't think that woudl stop him from going there eventually

Or maybe he'll just end up at Coventry City :lol:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

So just looking at the Table in Italy now

Como are 13th in the table 7 wins, 7 draws and 12 defeats

32 goals scored, 41 conceded


I wouldn’t say exactly watertight defensively, but I suppose for a team like that in 26 games it’s not terrible either

They beat Napoli on Sunday to stop them going back top of the table which is quite an impressive achievement

To clarify all this is from a two minute Google search, I didn’t even know Fabregas was in management until a week or so ago :lol:

It was a written review of the Napoli match I caught online a few days ago... apparently even after taking the lead they out played them all through and threatened to score more. Apparently he's seen there as pretty ambitious and his team play ambitiously too...thats why I used the Bournemouth comparison.

Anyway, wouldn't want him to succeed Arteta straight away, thats if he goes soon. I mean, that would mean we would have had 3 Spanish managers on the go and that would be too much for me (unless it was Alonso though, which will never happen).

I'll shout it till I'm blue in the face, we need an experienced hand who can get the most from these young lads ASAP. To me, that's Ancelotti.

I also think it would be better for the club as a whole to stop being fixated about the long term and learn to exist in the here and now with a manager who'd probably only do one contract.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://youtu.be/tnDcPrDUSB8?si=fB9DpFcn_yeQkito

Watching the highlights of the game made me curious, though ultimately more curious about Napoli than Como

A title challenging team conceding a comical own goal like that under no pressure, Philip Billing and Scott McTominay in the team

It’s fair to say the league that was the Primo European league in the early-mid 1990s is quite some considerable distance behind the premier league

[HCZ_Reborn]

It was a written review of the Napoli match I caught online a few days ago... apparently even after taking the lead they out played them all through and threatened to score more. Apparently he seen there as pretty ambitious and his team play ambitiously too...thats why I used the Bournemouth comparison.

Anyway, wouldn't want him to succeed Arteta straight away, thats if he goes soon. I mean, that would mean we would have had 3 Spanish managers on the go and that would be too much for me (unless it was Alonso though, which will never happen).

I'll shout it till I'm blue in the face, we need an experienced hand who can get the most from these young lads ASAP. To me, that's Ancelotti.

Ancelotti is the type of coach you bring in to a club that already has the players to be a title winning side, and just keeps things ticking over. Plus one season at Chelsea aside, his record in England is pretty meh.

Also there’s a difference between experience and eligible for a bus pass :lol:

I don’t think Arteta’s inexperience is the issue for us (not that I’m suggesting that we go for Fabregas, although if we did he would have more club managerial experience under his belt than Arteta did) it’s the hubris. I don’t think experience tends to dull that tendency

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

That Cesc celebration looked very Arteta like :lol:

Serie A is definitely not what it use to be, I mean McTominay is regarded as a superstar over there :lol:

Anyway, lets not forget that Inter was one of the first teams that beat us this season (we didn't have injury worries then), so they've still got some quality.

But TBH, the overall quality of the league is one of the reasons why I'm not gaga about going after some "stars" like that Juve striker we've been linked to for 3 years who I can't even get his name right because he's not consistent.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway talking of wanting an experienced coach, I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I think we just have different ideas on who that should be

Even though now it would be impossible for him to come here, the guy I always thought was the perfect fit for us was Klopp.

I followed his career going back to 2010, and I saw the way Dortmund played and won two league titles under him. He seemed to be the natural successor to Wenger and I think we dithered and we should have got him in the summer of 2015 before he ended up at Liverpool

I’m certain as certain can be, had we done so we’d have had at least one league title between then and now.

Without Klopp there would be no league title for Liverpool this season, it’s his team and his set up…if you like a bit like how Bob Paisley stepped into the shoes of Bill Shankly.

[IBK]

The reason I said that Arteta would (change that to might) walk is that if the owners/board do not back him with the players he now says he wants, I think he is more ambitious than to want to be stuck with perennial under achievers.

Where I am less confident than I was in thinking that we will progress under him is in looking at his longer term player recruitment over the past few years.

The simple truth is that we have never been a really potent attacking team under him. Our goal tally last season is misleading. A potent attacking team does not simply mean number of goals scored, it means the manner in which we attack. In some ways, its an advantage to be able to share goals out. In others, I can't escape the feeling that even at the best of times our goal threat depends upon all cogs in a very tightly coached set up working perfectly. We struggled for goals and found it difficult to convert chances this season with only one key player missing. We have struggled with low blocks for the past couple of seasons. Our strikers' goal tallys in the EPL last season were not great for a 'top team' (Saka 9th - on 16; Havertz 14th - 13; Trossard 18th - 12). this season they are lamentable. We relied for a lot of goals during the second half of last season and the first half of this one on corner routines. These have now dried up. We failed to score in 5 games last season, drew 5 and lost 5. This season we have reached this number already, and are behind Liverpool (1); Citeh (3) and Brighton, Chelsea and Fulham (4).

The games we should have won (or at least not lost) to win the league last season were West Ham at home and Fulham away. This is where a full strength Arteta team was found particularly wanting - and the deal was sealed at home (again) to Villa.

Our style of play and player personnel make it quite difficult to score goals from open play. I think that Arteta's system and philosophy makes us quite vulnerable to the loss of a forward player and to a low block.

One of the reasons why we are struggling to adapt now is that its not possible for players who have been so heavily coached and drilled to autonomisms to change these. I don't see Arteta now trying to recruit players who break the mould and are game changers.

I think also that Arteta's team has been built to deal with the previous threat posed by Citeh - physicality to match theirs and a chess game to outwit Pep's. He has been successful in this, but in doing so has taken his eye off the most effective way to deal with so-called 'lesser teams' who come to defend, concede possession and break on us. My concern is that he will be unwilling, or unable to adapt again.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So yes I think what you say is true in that we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season.

Additionally I think the particular skillset of the players we have is not necessarily adaptable in any event

Because even playing direct in this day and age is a skill, a long ball which is controlled is a skill and one that comes about by working on it in training. The direct goal that Rodgers scored against Palace looked to me an execution of something that had definitely been worked on in training, it certainly wasn’t spontaneous

And that’s my point I guess, spontenaety whilst it still exists in some form because you wouldn’t get these worldies is becoming less and less a feature of the game. How Arteta wants us to play is drilled into the players in training just as much as another coach employing a different system will drill that approach in training

[Mac76]

I also think it would be better for the club as a whole to stop being fixated about the long term and learn to exist in the here and now with a manager who'd probably only do one contract.

Yes i agree, i do think Arteta did a good job of repairing a lot of bad feeling and so maybe at the time he made sense, but as a coach he's not up to it and we just need to start winning now, not in 5 or 10 years

[Mac76]

So yes I think what you say is true in that we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season.

Additionally I think the particular skillset of the players we have is not necessarily adaptable in any event

I can only say again that this is demonstrably false and Everton is just one glaring example of how a manager can come in, change tactics, style and play and if he does in the right way the players adapt successfully

It doesn't matter if they're not a top team, the same principle applies - in fact it's even more relevant in a way if the players aren't top level standard but can clearly still adapt

[HCZ_Reborn]

I can only say again that this is demonstrably false and Everton is just one glaring example of how a manager can come in, change tactics, style and play and if he does in the right way the players adapt successfully

It doesn't matter if they're not a top team, the same principle applies - in fact it's even more relevant in a way if the players aren't top level standard but can clearly still adapt


Everton under throat cancer boy didn’t have a style of play, they just played the same way 11 behind the ball against pretty much everyone. It’s a bit like saying we changed our system when we retreated within our shells when down to ten men.

And actually it makes a big difference if you’re not a top team. For a team that has Championship level players it’s totally possible for a decent coach to get them up to the top half of the bottom end of the table.

A bit like Fabregas with Como

But that ability to make the difference dissipates nearer the top, granted a half wit with the best players can fail to win the biggest honours, but a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is

[Mac76]

Everton under throat cancer boy didn’t have a style of play, they just played the same way 11 behind the ball against pretty much everyone. It’s a bit like saying we changed our system when we retreated within our shells when down to ten men.

And actually it makes a big difference if you’re not a top team. For a team that has Championship level players it’s totally possible for a decent coach to get them up to the top half of the bottom end of the table.

A bit like Fabregas with Como

But that ability to make the difference dissipates nearer the top, granted a half wit with the best players can fail to win the biggest honours, but a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is

Sorry, but based on your arguments, Leicester would never have won the PL and Forest wouldn't be in the top 3 after two-thirds of the season

so again you're demonstrably wrong, give this one up it's not worth it

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sorry, but based on your arguments, Leicester would never have won the PL and Forest wouldn't be in the top 3 after two-thirds of the season

so again you're demonstrably wrong, give this one up it's not worth it

Leicester is the exception that proves the rule

It’s like a Gender nutter saying being a hemaphrodite proves there are more than two sexes. It’s called an outlier

From the time the Premier League started, take away that season and tell me that the winner of the league title wasn’t one of the two best teams in terms of player quality.

So you can stick your “you’re demonstrably wrong”


Also don’t come pointing fingers at me about starting arguments with people in future when you’re just as bad yourself

[Mac76]

Leicester is the exception that proves the rule

The rule being that HCZ will say anything to try to defy reason

:haha:

You said "a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is"

*Isn't" is a term that has no exceptions, but it happened

You also haven't explained Forest or numerous other examples over previous years

Like i say give it up

[Niall_Quinn]

The rule being that HCZ will say anything to try to defy reason

:haha:

You said "a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is"

*Isn't" is a term that has no exceptions, but it happened

You also haven't explained Forest or numerous other examples over previous years

Like i say give it up

Save your breath. He's caught Letters Syndrome.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The rule being that HCZ will say anything to try to defy reason

:haha:

You said "a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is"

*Isn't" is a term that has no exceptions, but it happened

You also haven't explained Forest or numerous other examples over previous years

Like i say give it up


I haven’t explained Forest? Before money became as prescient as it is now it was easier to assemble a team of the best players. In the late 70s Liverpool and Forest were the two best teams in the league, Forest won the title in 78 and Liverpool in 1979 and 1980

Plus Forest made the first £1 million signing with Trevor Francis so they weren’t shy about flashing the cash

Plus “Isn’t is a term with no exceptions” is weak sauce even for you, I know you think pulling people up on grammar and spelling is the same as making a substantive point but really? :lol:. I’m actually a bit embarrassed for you frankly

But I’ll tell you what, I’ll be a good sport

“but a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is (with the exception of an outlier season that happens once every thirty years)”

Ok sweet pea?

[Niall_Quinn]

Money became prescient? That explains it then. It's the money's fault. Never knew money was so devious, didn't even know it was sentient. Serves me right for being a dumbass.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Money became prescient? That explains it then. It's the money's fault. Never knew money was so devious, didn't even know it was sentient. Serves me right for being a dumbass.

As in predictive

Anyway what you doing here, thought you were wanking yourself silly over MAGA winning bigly?

[Niall_Quinn]

As in predictive

Anyway what you doing here, thought you were wanking yourself silly over MAGA winning bigly?

As in a grammar lesson gone horribly wrong, sweet pea.

I'm here because I have a month off, last weekend then back to the grind.

[HCZ_Reborn]

As in a grammar lesson gone horribly wrong, sweet pea.

I'm here because I have a month off, last weekend then back to the grind.

You’d kill a man to protect your family but you won’t spend any time with them?

[Niall_Quinn]

I suppose we'd all have a laugh and a drink if we ever met up.

Apart from Letters. He'd be outside giving us parking tickets.

[Niall_Quinn]

You’d kill a man to protect your family but you won’t spend any time with them?

I do my duty.

Family is getting on with their own shit. All grow'd up. Impressive people. Far more than me. Which is the whole game.

[Letters]

I suppose we'd all have a laugh and a drink if we ever met up.

Apart from Letters. He'd be outside giving us parking tickets.
I’d probably need to in order to raise the money I’d need to pay in case you start charging me rent for living in your head.

:coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

I’d probably need to in order to raise the money I’d need to pay in case you start charging me rent for living in your head.

:coffee:

Except that wasn't a joke.

[Mac76]

I haven’t explained Forest? Before money became as prescient as it is now it was easier to assemble a team of the best players. In the late 70s Liverpool and Forest were the two best teams in the league, Forest won the title in 78 and Liverpool in 1979 and 1980

Plus Forest made the first £1 million signing with Trevor Francis so they weren’t shy about flashing the cash

Plus “Isn’t is a term with no exceptions” is weak sauce even for you, I know you think pulling people up on grammar and spelling is the same as making a substantive point but really? :lol:. I’m actually a bit embarrassed for you frankly

But I’ll tell you what, I’ll be a good sport

“but a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is (with the exception of an outlier season that happens once every thirty years)”

Ok sweet pea?

How does Forest's distant history make any difference to how they're doing now, or what people's expectations were for this season? (clue: it doesn't)

My point (as you well know) is that no-one was saying they had the third best team in the league at the start if the season but there they are, under Santo they're immeasurably better than under previous managers

And if 'is not' isn't a definitive statement I don't know what is

Again, give it up, you really don't always have to have the last word you know

[HCZ_Reborn]

How does Forest's distant history make any difference to how they're doing now, or what people's expectations were for this season? (clue: it doesn't)

My point (as you well know) is that no-one was saying they had the third best team in the league at the start if the season but there they are, under Santo they're immeasurably better than under previous managers

And if 'is not' isn't a definitive statement I don't know what is

Again, give it up, you really don't always have to have the last word you know

Are Forest going to win the league? No they aren’t: So I don’t really see how that refutes my argument.

If i said the team that finishes third must by definition have the third best squad in the league you’d have a point. But I said to win the major prizes like the league it’s a result of having either the strongest or second strongest squad in the league, only to someone like you would that seem a remotely controversial statement. Citing an outlier case to say anyone can win the league if they have a good enough coach is nonsense.

Plus Don’t tell me what I know, if you can’t make what you’re saying clear.

[HCZ_Reborn]

“You just keep coming back and wearing them down till they give up and you can convince yourself that you won”

That’s sounding more like you at the moment chief.

[Mac76]

Are Forest going to win the league? No they aren’t: So I don’t really see how that refutes my argument.

If i said the team that finishes third must by definition have the third best squad in the league you’d have a point. But I said to win the major prizes like the league it’s a result of having either the strongest or second strongest squad in the league, only to someone like you would that seem a remotely controversial statement. Citing an outlier case to say anyone can win the league if they have a good enough coach is nonsense.

Plus Don’t tell me what I know, if you can’t make you’re saying clear.

What really happens is you twist an argument away from the orgignal point in order to escape from admitting you're wrong.

The original point was whether a manager with a current squad in place, could change tactics and approaches mid-season to noticeably improve how it played

It was nothing to do with winning the league

To quote you: "we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season."

So again... Everton alone proves you're wrong. I don't need to say any more than that.

And so, again... give it up

[HCZ_Reborn]

What really happens is you twist an argument away from the orgignal point in order to escape from admitting you're wrong.

The original point was whether a manager with a current squad in place, could change tactics and approaches mid-season to noticeably improve how it played

It was nothing to do with winning the league

To quote you: "we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season."

So again... Everton alone proves you're wrong. I don't need to say any more than that.

And so, again... give it up

:lol: You’re the king of projection aren’t you. You accuse me of shifting the goal posts when that’s exactly what you always do

So Here’s what actually happened

I said that when you drill a team to play in a certain way and you buy players specifically to allow you to play that way, you aren’t going to be able to significantly change things mid season

You said “I don’t agree what about Everton”

I said Everton weren’t playing a system under Throat Cancer boy they were just playing ultra defensively

I also went on to say to argue against your point that a good coach that can effect these changes, that there’s a limit to this. You can get a relegation threatened side up to say upper mid table. But actually when it comes to a sustained title challenge you need the players as well. That’s relevant to our situation (we don’t have the players)

Admitting I was wrong would necessitate me thinking I was wrong

If you want to believe that this team can adapt to playing in a completely different way just like that I have a bridge to sell you, if you believe that it’ll make a fuck of difference without our forward line I have two bridges.

As far as I can see you, you don’t even have an argument. This is just a pathetic attempt on your part to say “see how you like it”. But I can carry this on as long as you like. I wouldn’t be making the same point for the last week or so if I didn’t think I was right.

[Mac76]

As far as I can see you, you don’t even have an argument. This is just a pathetic attempt on your part to say “see how you like it”. But I can carry this on as long as you like. I wouldn’t be making the same point for the last week or so if I didn’t think I was right.

You might think you're right (though I suspect you know you're boxed in to an indefensible position and just don't want to admit it, hence the twisting of the argument) Everton proves you're wrong, sorry but it's that simple. Ofc Dyche had an approach and tactics, he also recruited a fair few players to fit that system, so that's what Moyes had to work with and yet he's transformed them.

And actually if you want to talk about top of the table (even though it wasn't your original point), their form from when he took over has them second https://www.planetfootball.com/premier-league/david-moyes-everton-remarkable-premier-league-table-since-return

:haha:

And yes, the only truth in your post is that we all know you will sit on this board 24/7, immediately contradicting everything because it's what you do. God forbid you might actually log off and go do something with your life.

And as for projecting, coming from someone who enjoys profiling people on the basis of a heavily edited documentary or a single messageboard post from people you don't even know, that's more than a little rich.

Anyway, enough already

[HCZ_Reborn]

You might think you're right (though I suspect you know you're boxed in to an indefensible position and just don't want to admit it, hence the twisting of the argument) Everton proves you're wrong, sorry but it's that simple. Ofc Dyche had an approach and tactics, he also recruited a fair few players to fit that system, so that's what Moyes had to work with and yet he's transformed them.

And actually if you want to talk about top of the table (even though it wasn't your original point), their form from when he took over has them second https://www.planetfootball.com/premier-league/david-moyes-everton-remarkable-premier-league-table-since-return

:haha:

And yes, the only truth in your post is that we all know you will sit on this board 24/7, immediately contradicting everything because it's what you do. God forbid you might actually log off and go do something with your life.

And as for projecting, coming from someone who enjoys profiling people on the basis of a heavily edited documentary or a single messageboard post from people you don't even know, that's more than a little rich.

Anyway, enough already

Using that word contradiction again, very telling. But actually given you started this argument, you’re the one contradicting me. Unlike you I don’t mind that, but to repeat myself again if I think I’m right I’m going to say so.

You asserting Everton proves me wrong is just that an assertion. And it’s a desperate one, I think people here are pushing back on what I’m saying a) because I’m not always that polite about the way I say it and b) don’t want to admit that everyone is powerless to change what’s happening on the pitch. It’s a fucked up situation and there’s plenty of blame to go around, but none of that does anything to change the situation.

I don’t know you, you’re right. I can only form an impression of someone from what they say. I would be very surprised if you’re not the smug self-satisfied lefty liberal who looks down on people despite not being anywhere as intelligent as they think they are. You could just be coming across that way, and actually outside of this place you could be a thoughtful individual who looks at each individual issue on its merits and doesn’t immediately side with the tribe according to what vibes you happen to like.

But there’s a complete absence of a thoughtful smart individual on here who doesn’t virtue signal and have a snotty condescending attitude to people about whose lives you know nothing. The same goes for Arteta, maybe there is a side to him that’s a people person, who can hold eye contact, isn’t passive aggressive etc….but that’s all I’ve seen.

I think the hostility comes because you don’t like the mirror being held up, you keep thinking it’s your duty to “call me out” for something or other, and you don’t like that I comment on the absurd inappropriate hypocrisy of it.

And I’m out at the moment, it may take up a massive part of your day but it doesn’t mine. What are you doing with your life, obviously whatever it is, is less important than trying the impossible task of trying to wear me down


As for your silly point about Everton being 2nd in the form table since Moyes came back, I’ll even do you the respect of believing you know the difference between a form table and an actual table. A league season is 38 games, not 6-8. But i guess if your need to win is strong enough, you’ll use anything

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QpKF1PHL7g

Kimmich seems like a done deal. That gives us nothing we don't already have. Word is Partey wants a one year extension, I'd give it to him forget about Kimmich, or get rid of Merino and then bring in Kimmich.

Sounds Like Liverpool will be favourites for Isak if anyone goes for him at all at the crazy prices being touted.

Sesko doesn't give us anything other than what we already see week in, week out.

Zubimendi - same. You can slot any number of talented players into that system but it's still a system that lacks creativity, so the talent is wasted.

Tierney's too direct, so he's out.

Like the video details, anyone who has a bit of independence is out.

Rice told us how it is - managed down to the last detail.

I haven't really bothered with the whole Arteta in/ out debate, mainly because he's going nowhere. That debate isn't worth having. A more useful debate is can Arteta change? Can he react to the most welcome demise of Pep's fashion and dress according to the new trends in this league. Or can he set a trend himself, like Wenger did?

I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. Because all we've seen is the same thing over and over. Could mean Arteta doesn't want to change, could mean he can't. Next season he needs to show some evidence he's not going to do a late-era Wenger and suspend us in limbo for the next decade.

[Mac76]

I don't have much faith in him changing, I thought he showed signs of learning when earlier in the season he was subbing Saka on 70 mins a few times instead of running him into the ground and was rotating Leo and Martinelli, but in general he hasn't shown any signs of learning, the failure to get in any attacking players being the obvious example.

It's a big reason why taking him on for his first job was a mistake, maybe if he'd had a smaller club he'd have more willing to learn but at Arsenal he's acting like he's the finished article but he isn't, nowhere near

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't have much faith in him changing, I thought he showed signs of learning when earlier in the season he was subbing Saka on 70 mins a few times instead of running him into the ground and was rotating Leo and Martinelli, but in general he hasn't shown any signs of learning, the failure to get in any attacking players being the obvious example.

It's a big reason why taking him on for his first job was a mistake, maybe if he'd had a smaller club he'd have more willing to learn but at Arsenal he's acting like he's the finished article but he isn't, nowhere near

Even if he didn't change yet somehow managed to win, I don't think I'd want to watch it.

[IBK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QpKF1PHL7g

Kimmich seems like a done deal. That gives us nothing we don't already have. Word is Partey wants a one year extension, I'd give it to him forget about Kimmich, or get rid of Merino and then bring in Kimmich.

Sounds Like Liverpool will be favourites for Isak if anyone goes for him at all at the crazy prices being touted.

Sesko doesn't give us anything other than what we already see week in, week out.

Zubimendi - same. You can slot any number of talented players into that system but it's still a system that lacks creativity, so the talent is wasted.

Tierney's too direct, so he's out.

Like the video details, anyone who has a bit of independence is out.

Rice told us how it is - managed down to the last detail.

I haven't really bothered with the whole Arteta in/ out debate, mainly because he's going nowhere. That debate isn't worth having. A more useful debate is can Arteta change? Can he react to the most welcome demise of Pep's fashion and dress according to the new trends in this league. Or can he set a trend himself, like Wenger did?

I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. Because all we've seen is the same thing over and over. Could mean Arteta doesn't want to change, could mean he can't. Next season he needs to show some evidence he's not going to do a late-era Wenger and suspend us in limbo for the next decade.


I am losing faith that Arteta will change.

The more I think about it, the worse his recent transfer decisions seem. Last Summer was pretty much a disaster, really. Sterling maybe the worst transfer for a decade - and to usurp Willian is going some. Merino - £32M wasted on a 28 year old journeyman who was clearly not what this team needed and has not raised the floor, let alone the ceiling of our team. We could have sourced a player of his limited ability in the Championship. Calafiori - £42M for an injury prone 'unicorn' player who might be a useful alternative in certain games, but was not what was needed; is a CB not a LB,, and has been usurped by an 18 year old academy player. All set against letting 4 forward players go, and self-evidently making us far too light in attack.

Frankly, the manager's blushes have been saved by MLS and Nwaneri - who have played far more minutes and done far better than the manager could ever have anticipated this season.

Even if we go back to 2023 - our signings were Rice; Timber; Havertz and Raya. Decent signings all, but Rice has not been utilised in his best position; Timber is not really an upgrade on Ben White, and Havertz is not a striker - and didn't really move the dial at left 8. Perhaps only Rice and Raya are league winning signings.

And the strand running throughout...tumbleweed in the top half of the pitch. As we have all observed, we are stuck in a rigid system that lacks dynamism; technique on the ball and flexibility and seems to discourage flair and real difference makers. It overloads players and leaves us short of alternatives other than in MF and defence. The chickens have come home to roost this season, and I am not hopeful that either club or manager can have the Summer needed to get us where we want to be.

[Mac76]

I am losing faith that Arteta will change.

The more I think about it, the worse his recent transfer decisions seem. Last Summer was pretty much a disaster, really. Sterling maybe the worst transfer for a decade - and to usurp Willian is going some. Merino - £32M wasted on a 28 year old journeyman who was clearly not what this team needed and has not raised the floor, let alone the ceiling of our team. We could have sourced a player of his limited ability in the Championship. Calafiori - £42M for an injury prone 'unicorn' player who might be a useful alternative in certain games, but was not what was needed; is a CB not a LB,, and has been usurped by an 18 year old academy player. All set against letting 4 forward players go, and self-evidently making us far too light in attack.

Frankly, the manager's blushes have been saved by MLS and Nwaneri - who have played far more minutes and done far better than the manager could ever have anticipated this season.

Even if we go back to 2023 - our signings were Rice; Timber; Havertz and Raya. Decent signings all, but Rice has not been utilised in his best position; Timber is not really an upgrade on Ben White, and Havertz is not a striker - and didn't really move the dial at left 8. Perhaps only Rice and Raya are league winning signings.

And the strand running throughout...tumbleweed in the top half of the pitch. As we have all observed, we are stuck in a rigid system that lacks dynamism; technique on the ball and flexibility and seems to discourage flair and real difference makers. It overloads players and leaves us short of alternatives other than in MF and defence. The chickens have come home to roost this season, and I am not hopeful that either club or manager can have the Summer needed to get us where we want to be.

agreed and to cap it all, as some others have said, we could buy the ideal attacking player(s) and still see Arteta play him/them out of position and/or in too rigid a system to get the best out of them

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ultimately the one thing that needs to change is to stop playing two defensive midfielders in most games. There’s no need for it. At the moment, there’s really next to nothing we can change barring a few tactical tweaks (such as swapping Partey and Rice around) but when Saka returns. Odegaard needs to shift to 8, Saka to 10 and Nwaneri to the right wing

Apart from anything else it’s ironically making us less defensively secure because the proper defensive midfielder in Rice is caught too far forward too often.


As for next season, not really worth commenting on tactical change until we know for definite who is coming in. Whether we bring in a type of midfielder that can pass quickly into space for runners to get onto before the defence can get back into shape. I’m hoping either way that enough money is spent that Arteta will know that he has to deliver or else.

I think the injuries and outrageous refereeing gives him some excuse but he’s as much to blame as anyone else. In terms of results this season hasn’t been a disaster but it’s been a profound disappointment for many reasons

[Chippy]

I am losing faith that Arteta will change.

The more I think about it, the worse his recent transfer decisions seem. Last Summer was pretty much a disaster, really. Sterling maybe the worst transfer for a decade - and to usurp Willian is going some. Merino - £32M wasted on a 28 year old journeyman who was clearly not what this team needed and has not raised the floor, let alone the ceiling of our team. We could have sourced a player of his limited ability in the Championship. Calafiori - £42M for an injury prone 'unicorn' player who might be a useful alternative in certain games, but was not what was needed; is a CB not a LB,, and has been usurped by an 18 year old academy player. All set against letting 4 forward players go, and self-evidently making us far too light in attack.

Frankly, the manager's blushes have been saved by MLS and Nwaneri - who have played far more minutes and done far better than the manager could ever have anticipated this season.

Even if we go back to 2023 - our signings were Rice; Timber; Havertz and Raya. Decent signings all, but Rice has not been utilised in his best position; Timber is not really an upgrade on Ben White, and Havertz is not a striker - and didn't really move the dial at left 8. Perhaps only Rice and Raya are league winning signings.

And the strand running throughout...tumbleweed in the top half of the pitch. As we have all observed, we are stuck in a rigid system that lacks dynamism; technique on the ball and flexibility and seems to discourage flair and real difference makers. It overloads players and leaves us short of alternatives other than in MF and defence. The chickens have come home to roost this season, and I am not hopeful that either club or manager can have the Summer needed to get us where we want to be.

The only hope that we have is that the board will eventually see that Arteta is a rookie and has spent £750m and only won a single FA Cup. That is a shocking return.
We also play terrible "tippy tappy" football.

[Letters]

The only hope that we have is that the board will eventually see that Arteta is a rookie and has spent £750m and only won a single FA Cup. That is a shocking return.
We also play terrible "tippy tappy" football.

I think some of that is a bit harsh. We got 89 points last season, we pushed City to the last day and had it not been for their juggernaut (and we all know how they got to that level), we'd definitely have won one title, maybe two. Our net spend - I'd suggest that's more relevant than the figure you quoted - is less than Chelsea (lol), Man Utd (rofl) and Spurs (chuckle). His first full season we finished 8th and last two seasons we were genuine contenders. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's going to get us over the line, but I don't thing "a single FA Cup" is the only metric we should judge him by. He's also been a part of restoring the relationship between fans and club, which had become quite toxic.

[Chippy]

I think some of that is a bit harsh. We got 89 points last season, we pushed City to the last day and had it not been for their juggernaut (and we all know how they got to that level), we'd definitely have won one title, maybe two. Our net spend - I'd suggest that's more relevant than the figure you quoted - is less than Chelsea (lol), Man Utd (rofl) and Spurs (chuckle). His first full season we finished 8th and last two seasons we were genuine contenders. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's going to get us over the line, but I don't thing "a single FA Cup" is the only metric we should judge him by. He's also been a part of restoring the relationship between fans and club, which had become quite toxic.

Ok, maybe slightly harsh because we were unfortunate last season with 89 points. And yes, Arteta has restored the relationship between the fans and the club which looked completely broken at the end of the Wenger era.
But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.

[Letters]

But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.
Yes, agreed on this point. We've gone backwards. It's very frustrating that the first season in years that City stop being a juggernaut and it's Liverpool who nip in and the title race is over before February. We have been unlucky with injuries but we didn't do the right things last summer to help us push on.

[IBK]

Ok, maybe slightly harsh because we were unfortunate last season with 89 points. And yes, Arteta has restored the relationship between the fans and the club which looked completely broken at the end of the Wenger era.
But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.

Yes - a fair summary. We shouldn't knock Arteta's achievements, but I think I agree with the Le Grove boys who are saying that this Summer looks more like going back from Stage 4 of Arteta's masterplan to stage 3, rather than pushing on to Stage 5. Last Summer we needed maybe 3 players to push on, because our MF and Defence was mostly there. Now, with the left 8 position still unresolved since Xhaka's departure; Jorghino (who IMO makes us better in MF most of the time he plays) going; Partey to be relegated to occasional player even if he stays; and Odegard showing that he has regressed badly, we are starting to look like we are going to have to rebuild in MF as well as up front. Plus we are most likely going to buy outside the EPL, so adjustment/bedding in for all our new players. When 3 players - striker; winger and dynamic midfielder would probably have seen us over the line this season, we (IMO) wasted money on a single MF addition (another member of stodge FC), and have mis-cast Rice all season. its so frustrating.

Another thing occurs to me also. Aretea's obsession with Swiss army knife players has hurt us. It has made us no less vulnerable to injuries/loss of form, and has resulted in a few players who are neither one thing nor another - when many of our competitors simply buy the best available player for a position, and play them there.

[Mac76]

Ok, maybe slightly harsh because we were unfortunate last season with 89 points. And yes, Arteta has restored the relationship between the fans and the club which looked completely broken at the end of the Wenger era.
But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.

That's the point, Arteta inherited attacking players but has pretty much only signed defensive players - signing Havertz for left 8 is I think the only attacking positon he's recuited for - albeit he spent a lot of money on it.

The longer he's here you could argue we're seeing more and more what he wants the team to look like and how he wants them to play - and it often ain't pretty, even before we had so many injuries

[KSE Comedy Club]

Ultimately the one thing that needs to change is to stop playing two defensive midfielders in most games. There’s no need for it. At the moment, there’s really next to nothing we can change barring a few tactical tweaks (such as swapping Partey and Rice around) but when Saka returns. Odegaard needs to shift to 8, Saka to 10 and Nwaneri to the right wing

Apart from anything else it’s ironically making us less defensively secure because the proper defensive midfielder in Rice is caught too far forward too often.


As for next season, not really worth commenting on tactical change until we know for definite who is coming in. Whether we bring in a type of midfielder that can pass quickly into space for runners to get onto before the defence can get back into shape. I’m hoping either way that enough money is spent that Arteta will know that he has to deliver or else.

I think the injuries and outrageous refereeing gives him some excuse but he’s as much to blame as anyone else. In terms of results this season hasn’t been a disaster but it’s been a profound disappointment for many reasons

My concern is that Arteta will continue to try and play Rice in a 'Xhaka' role to be a driving/attacking mid.
Then it won't matter who we bring in as we will still be stuck with two def mids.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I think some of that is a bit harsh. We got 89 points last season, we pushed City to the last day and had it not been for their juggernaut (and we all know how they got to that level), we'd definitely have won one title, maybe two. Our net spend - I'd suggest that's more relevant than the figure you quoted - is less than Chelsea (lol), Man Utd (rofl) and Spurs (chuckle). His first full season we finished 8th and last two seasons we were genuine contenders. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's going to get us over the line, but I don't thing "a single FA Cup" is the only metric we should judge him by. He's also been a part of restoring the relationship between fans and club, which had become quite toxic.

Ironic that he also may be partly responsible for it going back that way in the not too distant future too.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Another thing occurs to me also. Aretea's obsession with Swiss army knife players has hurt us. It has made us no less vulnerable to injuries/loss of form, and has resulted in a few players who are neither one thing nor another - when many of our competitors simply buy the best available player for a position, and play them there.

You could argue it's made us more vulnerable with the no. of injuries this season.

[Letters]

Ironic that he also may be partly responsible for it going back that way in the not too distant future too.

Fans in "being fickle" shock exclusive.

[IBK]

You could argue it's made us more vulnerable with the no. of injuries this season.

How do you think this is? (Not disagreeing - just interested). I certainly think that Arteta's obsesion with all of his players - including forwards - defending has been a factor with Saka; Martinelli; Havertz and Odegard. The sheer amount of running they are expected to do has to have had an effect. I'm not saying that forwards should not be the first line of defence, but there's a balance. Seeing Saka regularly at LB; Martinelli the same and Havertz literally collapsing with exhaustion begs the question of why - if our defence is as good as it's reputed to be - these kinds of sacrifices are necessary. Also, whether the sheer amount of defensive work these players have to do detracts from their sharpness when chances come at the other end.

I think Slot's greatest achievement this season is his load management. Salah is not expected to track back, but the defensive downside has been more than rewarded in g's and a's.

Conversely, our high 'pressing' style condenses play in the opposition's third - meaning less running required for them. The way Liverpool play, the other team is constantly having to bust a gut to keep up with them. With us, they can retreat into a compact defence and basically not have to move too much. There is something to be said for stretching rather than constricting play - both in terms of effectiveness and the relative loads on the teams.

[Mac76]

Ironic that he also may be partly responsible for it going back that way in the not too distant future too.

Interesting point, if they don't get the right summer signings and/or show a more positive playing style next season I think that could well be the case

He's been there 5 years now, one FAC right at the beginning just isn't enough

[Mac76]

How do you think this is? (Not disagreeing - just interested). I certainly think that Arteta's obsesion with all of his players - including forwards - defending has been a factor with Saka; Martinelli; Havertz and Odegard. The sheer amount of running they are expected to do has to have had an effect. I'm not saying that forwards should not be the first line of defence, but there's a balance. Seeing Saka regularly at LB; Martinelli the same and Havertz literally collapsing with exhaustion begs the question of why - if our defence is as good as it's reputed to be - these kinds of sacrifices are necessary. Also, whether the sheer amount of defensive work these players have to do detracts from their sharpness when chances come at the other end.

I think Slot's greatest achievement this season is his load management. Salah is not expected to track back, but the defensive downside has been more than rewarded in g's and a's.

Conversely, our high 'pressing' style condenses play in the opposition's third - meaning less running required for them. The way Liverpool play, the other team is constantly having to bust a gut to keep up with them. With us, they can retreat into a compact defence and basically not have to move too much. There is something to be said for stretching rather than constricting play - both in terms of effectiveness and the relative loads on the teams.

This

[dazthegooner]

Interesting point, if they don't get the right summer signings and/or show a more positive playing style next season I think that could well be the case

He's been there 5 years now, one FAC right at the beginning just isn't enough

Was chatting to a Liverpool supporter friend and he mentioned that when they won in 2020 didn't feeel right as there weren't any fans and the same could be said for our FA cup win against Chelsea.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Was chatting to a Liverpool supporter friend and he mentioned that when they won in 2020 didn't feeel right as there weren't any fans and the same could be said for our FA cup win against Chelsea.Absolutely, not that it wasn't great to win or that it wasn't deserved or legitimate. It just didn't seem "real" and there were other things going on which took attention away from it.

Even when one goes back and watches the odd highlight from either that season, or moreso the season after, it's almost out into its own little box. It happened but it's.mm different.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

[HCZ_Reborn]

Absolutely, not that it wasn't great to win or that it wasn't deserved or legitimate. It just didn't seem "real" and there were other things going on which took attention away from it.

Even when one goes back and watches the odd highlight from either that season, or moreso the season after, it's almost out into its own little box. It happened but it's.mm different.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

I hope some of the Liverpool fans who left the city centre in an absolute mess (from my memory you were confirmed as champions on a Thursday despite not playing as City lost at Chelsea) felt bloody ashamed of themselves and helped tidy up the place the next day

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I hope some of the Liverpool fans who left the city centre in an absolute mess (from my memory you were confirmed as champions on a Thursday despite not playing as City lost at Chelsea) felt bloody ashamed of themselves and helped tidy up the place the next dayI believe you're right, as I remember the team celebrated in.... Iirc Formby Hall.

I stayed away from town for a good few days for that exact reason. Same as I will do if we win this time round.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

[Letters]

I was hoping they'd declare the whole season null and void.
That would have been hilarious :lol:
Although maybe not as we won the FA Cup.
Everything about that season and couple of years was weird.
Remember the curfews and checkpoints? Good times

:ninja:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I believe you're right, as I remember the team celebrated in.... Iirc Formby Hall.

I stayed away from town for a good few days for that exact reason. Same as I will do if we win this time round.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

Don’t think it will be that messy this time around, I think that was a unique combination of people not being able to celebrate in pubs and in the ground because of covid and because it was Liverpool’s first league title in 30 years so a big deal

[HCZ_Reborn]

I was hoping they'd declare the whole season null and void.
That would have been hilarious :lol:
Although maybe not as we won the FA Cup.
Everything about that season and couple of years was weird.
Remember the curfews and checkpoints? Good times

:ninja:

Nah was never gonna happen. Plus actually was quite pleased for Liverpool winning the title then.

[Mac76]

Nah was never gonna happen. Plus actually was quite pleased for Liverpool winning the title then.

Whether or not it was going to happen wasn't the point, it was winding up Liverpool fans about it that was suxh a laugh - if you had a sense of humour that is

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Don’t think it will be that messy this time around, I think that was a unique combination of people not being able to celebrate in pubs and in the ground because of covid and because it was Liverpool’s first league title in 30 years so a big deal

I think it will be just as bad, if not worse. For a start, everyone is out and about. And enough people have convinced themselves that 2020 wasn't "proper" so they will make up for it this time round. Even if they were the same people out last time. Good luck to them I say, but I'll be staying away regardless :lol:

[IBK]

So I'm posting on here having seen some people on the PSG game thread suggesting that they would welcome us finishing outside the top 5 in the EPL this season because this would make it more likely that Arteta is sacked.

I am finding it difficult to process this!

I am as critical of Arteta as most on here when I see obvious mistakes made. But I really struggle to see the case for sacking him at this stage, despite these.

The case against Arteta on here seems to be based on 3 main issues.

1. Personal antipathy to his character (that includes apparent stubbornness and refusal to change his approach) (HCZ ;))

2. Frustration at some obvious mistakes he has made.

3. The feeling that there is someone better out there who would take our team and lead it to success.

Re the first point I don't get the hate. Much of this in the wider punditry world seems to be based on Areta's intensity and alleged victim mentality (always blaming refs etc); arrogance or (again alleged) touchline behaviour. But I don't think this case is made out. I see nothing in Arteta's press conferences that is unprofessional, over confrontational or obnoxious. He is intense, but for me this shows he cares deeply about our team and is desperate for success. As far as I am able to see, he has rarely used excuses to justify poor results. His players are clearly 100% bought in to him, and while it is undeniable that he has frozen out some players can we honestly say that is almost all cases he hasn't been proven right in this? I think that POGML has gone after him as unfairly as it has his players at times.

It is undeniable that Arteta has made mistakes. Also that he is (still) inexperienced. The failure to invest in forwards has hurt us badly this season, and I get (and have highlighted my own) frustration at some of his on pitch decisions. But focussing on these is IMHO very one-sided and ignores very real balancing factors. The idea that Arteta has not learnt from some of his mistakes is simply wrong. To give a couple of examples - we have seen many more attempts this season to try to rotate players and try new combinations. We have seen Academy players brought into the first team and perform. We have seen attempts to vary our style of play to suit the opposition, and the manager evolving past former 'first picks' like Zinchenko, and allowing the likes of Nketiah to leave.

And what about what the manager has got right? In player terms, there is a long list. Raya? We thought that bringing him in when we had Ramsdale was unnecessary - this decision was now undeniably correct. Havertz? We had written him off as a waste of money after 4 months but now have an ironic chant lampooning this. Merino? His re-purposing as a forward has brought rewards that had he been a striker signed in January would have been applauded (this also speaks to Arteta's tactical nous). MLS - an academy midfielder who has been a revelation at LB. That Rice was an outstanding player was reflected in his transfer fee and I can see that his performances could have been expected, but he has evolved under Arteta to be a potent attacking MF. Jurrien Timber? - enough said. Arteta - for all the justified criticism of lack of investment up front - has nailed a lot of his transfer business. And that's not allowing for the fact that almost all of the players who have left the club under Arteta have also justified his decisions.

In league terms - 8th; 8th; 5th; 2nd; 2nd - and a good chance of 2nd again. Liverpool under one of the most esteemed managers in world football and without having to recover from a basket case situation previously - 1st; 3rd; 2nd; 5th; 3rd (and 1st this season under Slot). In the 3 years prior to this season, Arteta out performed Klopp. In the CL - in Arenal's first season back in the CL after 5 years' absence we made the Quarters, and in this follow up season the Semis (for the first time since 2009 - 16 years! - and still not out of it). An outsider might well ask 'what do you want when it comes to evidence of Arteta's value to Arsenal?'.

We all want trophies - Arteta as much as anyone - and failing to push Liverpool for the league has been a disappointment. But we are only 4th top net spenders in the league over the past 5 seasons and even this is a bit misleading because it ignores the base from which Arteta had to come when he arrived. Our position this season is 11th; last season it was admittedly 2nd, the season before 6th(!). By this metric, it is clear that Arteta has significantly over performed. And let's not forget that our 2nd place finishes in 22/3 and 23/4 were benind the juggernaut that is the state owned Citeh - with 115 potential reasons to question whether this was a fair fight.

And finally to the last point. It's trite to ask who could come in and do a better job, with better prospects than Arteta at this stage, because there are a myriad of factors that make a manager a good fit for a club. But that said, most of those calling for Arteta's head either have no suggestions as to a potential replacement ('that's for the Club to do etc'), or make suggestions that carry so many question marks as to be, frankly, pointless. So I will try to approach the issue in 2 alternative ways. Firstly, which top world clubs would not even consider Arteta at the prersent time if they needed to change managers? I think the answer is pretty obvious and instructive. Second - two things to consider.

On Tuesday night, Arteta was up against a state owned club that has had a net spend over the past 10 seasons £300M more than Arsenal, has had CL experience of reaching the last 16 in each of the past 5 seasons, getting to 2 semi finals and 1 final in that time; and a manager who has won La Liga twice and the CL once (as well as being runaway Ligue 1 champion). PSG had no key injuries or suspensions. Arteta was missing 2 strikers; 2 mifielders (including Partey who has been instrumental in getting us to the semis); his first choice LCB and had a 70% fit Saka - arguably his most important player. He had to fundamentally change a settled formula that had seen us thrash RM and had been used to compensate for his striker injuries, and Rice's enforced change of position was arguably the reason for the result. Arteta not only showed his tactical smarts by fundamentally changing a dire situation in the first 30 mins, but lost by a single goal.

Slot won the league with a team that had been built extremely well by Klopp; relying to a great degree on a standout player who was the best in the league. Had almost no injuries to his key players - save Trent for 3 games and Alisson - but this latter was mitigated by having the best back up GK in the league. I don't really need to go through our injury crisis, but we have been decimated by injury for long periods to 5 of our most important players.

I'm not looking for excuses for Arteta - but if the knives are out for him it's simply unfair not to see this season in context.

This is a hugely long post and no doubt boring for some, but I wanted to get this off my chest.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My personal dislike of Arteta is somewhat divorced from my dislike of the job he’s doing (although there are overlaps because I think the mistakes he makes are at least informed by his character)

Arteta could have won everything under the sun for us, and I’d be happy for him to remain as Coach for as long as he wants and I’d still dislike him as a person (or to be specific…dislike the person he presents as)

Hate is a word I don’t use often, I don’t hate Arteta I just dislike him…if the word hate ever gets used in the same sentence it’s momentary rage rather than a general overall feeling

But I do hate the job Arteta has done this season, and I’d love to see him sacked, publicly humiliated and unable to get work again as a result. But I could think Arteta was a good guy and still feel this way.


When it comes to this season, I’m Ernst Stavro Blofeld before his face is revealed, doing terrible things to his underlings because he doesn’t tolerate failure.

This season is failure

[HCZ_Reborn]

I also strongly dislike Guardiola (or how he presents). There is this as I’ve discussed before this Iberian smug superiority that some from that area exude that grates on me. It’s not just arrogance as Germans and Italians can be arrogant but there’s a whimsy with that which makes it more excusable.

Guardiola is worse than Arteta in my view, unbelievably insincere, patronising and overbearing


He was a good player, but not a good enough player that Haaland shouldn’t have turned around and told him to fuck off for berating him at half time in a game against Burnley they were winning comfortably.


As for Arteta, I think Top players don’t respect coaches that had mediocre playing careers “what can you possibly teach me?”

I think this is why Arteta sometimes prefers younger players with less personality, because they won’t think “what have you won in your career to give me advice?”

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

IBK, I suggest you try and watch the Barca and Inter game so you'll realise the gods did us a favour giving us PSG at this stage.

Like I said to HCZ on another thread, there are too many people who share these sympathies and this why even if we lose all the games left this season, Arteta's job will stay relatively safe.

AFAIC all I see this season are convenient excuses for someone who when he became a favourite for a competition (the EPL and the CL) contrived to mess things up either through hubris or lack of preparation. That isn't a sign of a winner but a glorified choker. And before you say we only became favourites this season, he also did it in the UEFA cup when we were favourites.

At the end of the day, I think its naive to think you'll win a league by continually taking baby steps, as we've been doing with this manager. That's the main reason I want him out, I can't ever see him doing enough to win the league.

As Slot has shown, and I said in previous seasons when I pointed out the list of Chelsea managers who won the league at the first time of asking, if a core of a team is decent, a new manager can always build on this and get you what you think you deserve.

I am beginning to think that only a nuclear event like Spurs winning the league or the CL will irk the fanbase enough to realise that we're waisting a talented bunch because we're afraid of taking the next step, as usual.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think where I disagree with you, and if I’ve misattributed sentiments to you in anyway then I’ll withdraw. Is that you look to Chelsea as a blueprint for what we should be as a club and for me that would be monstrous. Not just as it is now but how it’s always been, I don’t want one good season, one thin season that’s been bought off the back of going berserk in the transfer market. The only coach there that brought in any measure of stability/sustainability was Mourinho and he then undermined that with his destructive narcissistic personality (I use that word a lot to describe people but we really are in an age of narcassists)

Arteta has been given a lot of money to spend but what definitely can’t be said of him is that if he were to go tomorrow, the next coach would have their job cut out for them. No I think given a few additions I think they’d have one of the easiest jobs in the world. Slot who you cite, is nothing special and benefited from a) having a largely settled squad available to him and b) the clubs that would have most likely squeezed them back into third place where for my money is where they belong, have both had atrocious seasons.

Arteta is responsible for this, but he’s also responsible for the fact that despite this we are still in the driving seat to finish 2nd and actually we’ve lost 7 games all season (which is the same number as supposedly brilliant Liverpool have lost).

For me it’s about getting the balance right, there’s no sense to me in being a team that wins the title or the champions league one season, to be mid table and then have to spend loads to build an entirely new team.

If we win the league, I want to retain the league, if we win the European cup I want us to try to retain it. I don’t just want big prizes in one season….i want us to create a dynasty of success. Something Chelsea never did, and Man City have only done through cheating.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This follows on from what I’ve said that actually the coach isn’t that important. If you have a functioning structure at the club that is conducive to success (and although I don’t rate many of liverpools players I think it unquestionable that they do have that structure in place) that you can get someone who isn’t this immensely talented superstar of a coach, but a pretty ordinary guy who is smart enough to know his place and not try to change too much like Arne Slot…you can be successful.
If you have a good enough squad (which Liverpool fortunately for us don’t) you can potentially have multiple successes.

Arteta’s main problem is he wants to be the centrepiece and in that his ambition and self belief dwarf his ability. I think if he resigned from Arsenal at the end of the season I think he would probably have multiple job offers from many clubs, because people will see the job he’s done at Arsenal and like it. But arguably the architect is not necessarily the best person to go forward with…you need someone without an ego who can work in a system which has been created for him.

And maybe that’s to a degree why Klopp didn’t achieve as much as he would have wanted, big ego…when what was needed was a dull functionary

[Mac76]

This follows on from what I’ve said that actually the coach isn’t that important.

...and which has been shown to be absurd, and before you use the 'E' word, not just as I previously said by Moyes at Everton, also Santo at Forest, Ireola at Bournemouth and others.

Actually you can also spin it round and point to what a negative the fat Aussie has been at Spuds, also Russell Martin at Saints, whose suicidal tactics gave them no chance, a la Kompany at Burnley the season before

To say that the person who chooses the team, the tactics, the coaching staff and regime, and to some extent the transfers isn't important is palpably ludicrous

And you've often said you hate Arteta and want him to go, but why, if he isn't important? :shrug:

[IBK]

IBK, I suggest you try and watch the Barca and Inter game so you'll realise the gods did us a favour giving us PSG at this stage.

Like I said to HCZ on another thread, there are too many people who share these sympathies and this why even if we lose all the games left this season, Arteta's job will stay relatively safe.

AFAIC all I see this season are convenient excuses for someone who when he became a favourite for a competition (the EPL and the CL) contrived to mess things up either through hubris or lack of preparation. That isn't a sign of a winner but a glorified choker. And before you say we only became favourites this season, he also did it in the UEFA cup when we were favourites.

At the end of the day, I think its naive to think you'll win a league by continually taking baby steps, as we've been doing with this manager. That's the main reason I want him out, I can't ever see him doing enough to win the league.

As Slot has shown, and I said in previous seasons when I pointed out the list of Chelsea managers who won the league at the first time of asking, if a core of a team is decent, a new manager can always build on this and get you what you think you deserve.

I am beginning to think that only a nuclear event like Spurs winning the league or the CL will irk the fanbase enough to realise that we're waisting a talented bunch because we're afraid of taking the next step, as usual.

But your post ignores many of the points that I have raised.

I did watch the Barca/Inter game last night and share your sentiment that the level appeared far higher for both teams than we have shown. What I fail to understand is how this relates to the arguments I have raised to put Arteta's performance with us into context.

Barca - 5x winners of the comp in the past 20 years. Inter 1x winners in this period, and finalists in 2022/23. Both teams with continuous participation in and experience of the comp for the past 7 seasons (Barca since 1998). Arsenal never winners and not even in the comp for 5 years prior to last season. Even then, Arteta matched Barca's performance last season and bettered Inter's. Surely you are not saying that because Arsenal's performance on Tuesday with a very depleted team did not match these two last night this should be the standard by which Arteta is judged. Put another way, would Inzaghi's or Flick's teams been as scintillating/effective with 2 of their best 3 MF's absent; no strikers; no first choice LCM and, say Lamal and Dumfries (who scored or assisted all 6 goals last night) at 70%? You also don't know how PSG - equally packed with talent - would have fared against either team.

Your 'favourite' for the EPL and the CL point cuts both ways BTW. At the time when this may have been the case - it was based on performances and results achieved by guess who - the manager you want rid of. I'm also not buying the choker tag. You can't apply this while at the same time ignoring our injuries. My view is that we might have prevailed on Tuesday with Partey playing. We even had good chances to win the match. Are these factors the manager's fault?

Is it naive to think that titles are won by sometimes incremental progression? Even the great Klopp - coming in with vastly more experience - took 4 seasons to win the league and having done so failed to do this again in his following 4 seasons. There are almost inevitably setbacks - success is often not linear. Yes Slot, and some Chelsea managers won the league at the first time of asking, but my above post pointed out Slot's advantages over Arteta, and Chelsea had financial advantages not available to him. Also, Arteta did not inherit a decent core of a team. He came into a club in complete disarray, with a mediocre and unbalanced team, and huge work to do to turn the ship around.

If you are panning Arteta for an admittedly disappointing league season this season, are you saying that had our first team remained largely fit this season we would not have had a decent shout at overhauling Liverpool?

Where I have more sympathy with you is taking the next step. We are yet to see how we do this, and I am reserving judgment until I do.

The main thrust of my above post was lamenting the lack of any balance and context in assessing our manager. HCZ at least acknowledges Arteta's achievements. The issue is not as black and white as people on both sides of the argument seem to think.

[Mac76]

The blame for this league season is partly due to things Arteta has control over - negative tactics and setups, a failure to use all of the squad effectively and a poor transfer policy, equally we can't ignore the refs and injuries either, but if you get all that other stuff right, you've a better chance of overcoming.them

[HCZ_Reborn]

...and which has been shown to be absurd, and before you use the 'E' word, not just as I previously said by Moyes at Everton, also Santo at Forest, Ireola at Bournemouth and others.

Actually you can also spin it round and point to what a negative the fat Aussie has been at Spuds, also Russell Martin at Saints, whose suicidal tactics gave them no chance, a la Kompany at Burnley the season before

To say that the person who chooses the team, the tactics, the coaching staff and regime, and to some extent the transfers isn't important is palpably ludicrous

And you've often said you hate Arteta and want him to go, but why, if he isn't important? :shrug:


It’s almost not worth responding to this, because I think you’re so desperate to be right your whole argument is utterly confused.

What im clearly saying is if the setup at a club is good enough it doesn’t necessarily matter who the coach is. This isn’t the same as saying at every club the coach is just a functionary….please tell me you understand that?. It didn’t matter for Real Madrid whether Zidane or Ancelotti was head coach because ultimately they were just one small part of the overall structure.

So I don’t even know why you’d mention Forest or Everton as neither work to that structure. And I think it’s strange that you’re still trying the Moyes example because actually the results for Everton have gone back to being how they were under throat cancer boy, so your example of why what I’m saying is absurd actually only serves to prove my point.

Arsenal don’t have that structure either, Arteta has far too much power and influence, that needs to be curbed. We don’t need self professed geniuses with a god complex, we need quiet unremarkable guys who can work as part of a team not being the generalissimo.

Now kindly go away and try not to start arguments with people unless you bother to actually understand what the argument is first

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I think where I disagree with you, and if I’ve misattributed sentiments to you in anyway then I’ll withdraw. Is that you look to Chelsea as a blueprint for what we should be as a club and for me that would be monstrous. Not just as it is now but how it’s always been, I don’t want one good season, one thin season that’s been bought off the back of going berserk in the transfer market. The only coach there that brought in any measure of stability/sustainability was Mourinho and he then undermined that with his destructive narcissistic personality (I use that word a lot to describe people but we really are in an age of narcassists)

Arteta has been given a lot of money to spend but what definitely can’t be said of him is that if he were to go tomorrow, the next coach would have their job cut out for them. No I think given a few additions I think they’d have one of the easiest jobs in the world. Slot who you cite, is nothing special and benefited from a) having a largely settled squad available to him and b) the clubs that would have most likely squeezed them back into third place where for my money is where they belong, have both had atrocious seasons.

Arteta is responsible for this, but he’s also responsible for the fact that despite this we are still in the driving seat to finish 2nd and actually we’ve lost 7 games all season (which is the same number as supposedly brilliant Liverpool have lost).

For me it’s about getting the balance right, there’s no sense to me in being a team that wins the title or the champions league one season, to be mid table and then have to spend loads to build an entirely new team.

If we win the league, I want to retain the league, if we win the European cup I want us to try to retain it. I don’t just want big prizes in one season….i want us to create a dynasty of success. Something Chelsea never did, and Man City have only done through cheating.

From paragraph 2 I agree with everything you said and this has been the sentiment I have shared for ages. The only thing I might disagree with you a bit is there should be urgency to win the league, as the first win is what gets things rolling and not coming 2nd every year like we did a lot under AW which we are now repeating without the conciliatory trophies under Arteta.

As for your first paragraph, yes you have misconstrued what I've been saying regarding Chelsea as an example. I've never asked for us to operate exactly like Chelsea, what I have rejected is that Chelsea was a badly run club in its entirety and that there are no learnings to take from them. In particular, I agree with the notion under Abramovich (which Italian superclubs have always done) that made clear that coaches should be set proper targets and held accountable when they fail.

In the 19 years Abramovich was in charge Chelsea won 19 major titles using 13 managers, and they were the most successful club throughout this period (ManU followed with 16 and we trailed I believe we with 3 or so FA cups).

When Abramovich's reign started, Ranieri was at the helm and he got them to their highest league finish in ages (2nd) and got them to the semifinals of the CL. Easily Chelsea's best performance in a generation. Yet he was sacked. Mourinho comes in the next season, wins the LC, dethrones the Invincibles and wins the league with largely Ranieri's team while also reaching the CL semis. 2 seasons later he'd be sacked for a stuttering league campaign and not surpassing Ranieri's feats in the CL.

I'm not going to go on about every manager but will point out that these two top managers, if they were Arsenal managers would have been heralded as successes and probably been given 10 years each to perfect their craft and create a team that would dominate for ages.

With hindsight and looking at how both their careers have panned out, I can say without a doubt, if he had stuck with either manager, Abramovich and Chelsea would not have been as successful as they turned out in the 19 years he was there.

The initial reason I brought up Chelsea was to point out that all the managers who won the league won it in their first season in charge, using another's team to do so. Thankfully Slot has repeated this feat so I don't have to use Chelsea anymore when I point out the ability of a new manager to give us instant results like AW once did.

Managers like Pep and Fergie, who can build dynasties are once in a generation. You rate Klopp and I rate him also as being one of the best managers I've ever seen, but even he couldn't build a dynasty of winners that dominate. Neither could AW and the world rates him as a Genius.

As for Arteta, who has the gall to rate the Charity Shield as a big trophy, I don't think he's anything special nor is he going to create a dominating dynasty soon, no matter how much support he gets and how badly some of us need this to be true.

[IBK]

The blame for this league season is partly due to things Arteta has control over - negative tactics and setups, a failure to use all of the squad effectively and a poor transfer policy, equally we can't ignore the refs and injuries either, but if you get all that other stuff right, you've a better chance of overcoming.them

Mate - that's not really an illuminating point. Every team's performance (and of course this is always relative) is to a large degree down to things within a manager's gift (HCZ knows I don't agree with his 'pilotless team' argument). This is evidenced by teams' relative ups and downs under different managers. Arsenal are no different.

Also, few managers (if any) do not make some mistakes, or are not reliant on good fortune.

Again, I am not making excuses for Arteta's mistakes (that I have criticised on many occasions), what I am saying is that people calling for his head are, in my view, taking our league performance and failure to improve on 2nd place as irrefutable proof that he is not up to the job, and failing to see this in any proper context.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think even under Abramovich, the Chelsea model is far too chaotic and inconsistent to be a model I’d want anything to do with. It was entirely based on money spent, even their two champions league titles came with apalling league campaigns side by side.
Ancelotti won the title in his first season, yet did nothing in his second season….wasnt a good coach one season and an average one the next.
Whilst it’s not quite look at what Chelsea have done and do the opposite, but it’s not far off that.

Klopp’s time at Liverpool has to be seen through the context of a malfeasant Manchester City. We talk about the frustration of getting 89 points and losing out on the title, Liverpool twice got 90+ points and lost out to them. And Slot knows and has the humility to acknowledge that without Klopp, there’s no way he’s winning the title this season.
Arteta has created something that an ordinary Slot like coach can (to coin a phrase :lol:) Slot into and be successful with, though it would require some tweaks….in that the influence and power Arteta has now, the person who succeeds him cannot be allowed. We need a first team coach not a manager, let the director of football and other staff have the responsibility and allow the new guy to work with them as part of a team rather than him having any authority over them.

I think Arteta would probably be fine in that setup, yes it can be argued that he’s negative tactically but take away a season where we’ve had also zero strikers….since 2022 we’ve won the vast majority of our games in the league and scored plenty of goals. However it wouldn’t be possible to change Arteta’s role at the club because of his hubris and his ego…so he has to go

[IBK]

@ 21 GS - even he couldn't build a dynasty of winners that dominate

And here is one of my main issues. Who is out there who is guaranteed to do this? It's easy to live in a fantasy world where there is a sure way to guarantee success. The reality is very different. There is far more chance of us bringing in a multiple title winning manager who flounders at our club than there is of even a celebrated coach taking us further than Arteta has and might well still do.

Plus building a dynasty (and by this I mean not flash in the pan success but something sustained like - as you say - Fergie; Pep; AW achieved) takes time. I'd say that by these criteria - taking us from the wilderness to a position where we have consistently finished second in the league and for 2 years gone past the last 16 of the CL is not a bad springboard for the lasting success that we all crave. Winning trophies is not easy, and there are too many random factors to ever make this guaranteed - at least for a club with our resources.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Mate - that's not really an illuminating point. Every team's performance (and of course this is always relative) is to a large degree down to things within a manager's gift (HCZ knows I don't agree with his 'pilotless team' argument). This is evidenced by teams' relative ups and downs under different managers. Arsenal are no different.

Also, few managers (if any) do not make some mistakes, or are not reliant on good fortune.

Again, I am not making excuses for Arteta's mistakes (that I have criticised on many occasions), what I am saying is that people calling for his head are, in my view, taking our league performance and failure to improve on 2nd place as irrefutable proof that he is not up to the job, and failing to see this in any proper context.

I’ve never suggested we should have a pilotless team, so it feels like (and perhaps you’re not the only one here) who misunderstands my argument.

When I say it doesn’t matter who we have, I look at Liverpool’s model….Slot is the head coach who knows his place….hes certainly nothing special….he just does the simple things right and although at the beginning of the season experimented with putting his own personal stamp on the team, he quickly saw that wasn’t working and kept with the Klopp formula.

I think the big personality who is the supreme commander and the conductor of the orchestra is unnecessary. You need a first team coach who can get on with everyone, doesn’t rock the boat too much and isn’t a galaxy brain. That’s all

[IBK]

I’ve never suggested we should have a pilotless team, so it feels like (and perhaps you’re not the only one here) who misunderstands my argument.

When I say it doesn’t matter who we have, I look at Liverpool’s model….Slot is the head coach who knows his place….hes certainly nothing special….he just does the simple things right and although at the beginning of the season experimented with putting his own personal stamp on the team, he quickly saw that wasn’t working and kept with the Klopp formula.

I think the big personality who is the supreme commander and the conductor of the orchestra is unnecessary. You need a first team coach who can get on with everyone, doesn’t rock the boat too much and isn’t a galaxy brain. That’s all

Yeah - fair enough - we are all guilty of over statement sometomes :good:

I take your argument re the level of responsibility assumed by Arteta, albeit that my position is (I guess) that it is what it is, and we are yet to see whether it takes us where we want to go.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah - fair enough - we are all guilty of over statement sometomes :good:

I take your argument re the level of responsibility assumed by Arteta, albeit that my position is (I guess) that it is what it is, and we are yet to see whether it takes us where we want to go.

I just don’t see how it can ever be successful in this day and age, it ended in tears for Wenger because he took on too much power. Arteta shouldn’t be the boss of the Director of Football, it’s not to say he can’t have input over transfers but Berta shouldn’t be his Acolyte.

[Mac76]

Mate - that's not really an illuminating point. Every team's performance (and of course this is always relative) is to a large degree down to things within a manager's gift (HCZ knows I don't agree with his 'pilotless team' argument). This is evidenced by teams' relative ups and downs under different managers. Arsenal are no different.

Also, few managers (if any) do not make some mistakes, or are not reliant on good fortune.

Again, I am not making excuses for Arteta's mistakes (that I have criticised on many occasions), what I am saying is that people calling for his head are, in my view, taking our league performance and failure to improve on 2nd place as irrefutable proof that he is not up to the job, and failing to see this in any proper context.

I'd have thought all the things i mentioned re tactics, team selections etc is context, that said I'm not one of the ones saying our league position is our fault more than other factors, in particular what people are saying even now about finishing second being really important is silly given what's on offer in the CL

[Mac76]

It’s almost not worth responding to this, because I think you’re so desperate to be right your whole argument is utterly confused.

What im clearly saying is if the setup at a club is good enough it doesn’t necessarily matter who the coach is. This isn’t the same as saying at every club the coach is just a functionary….please tell me you understand that?. It didn’t matter for Real Madrid whether Zidane or Ancelotti was head coach because ultimately they were just one small part of the overall structure.

So I don’t even know why you’d mention Forest or Everton as neither work to that structure. And I think it’s strange that you’re still trying the Moyes example because actually the results for Everton have gone back to being how they were under throat cancer boy, so your example of why what I’m saying is absurd actually only serves to prove my point.

Arsenal don’t have that structure either, Arteta has far too much power and influence, that needs to be curbed. We don’t need self professed geniuses with a god complex, we need quiet unremarkable guys who can work as part of a team not being the generalissimo.

Now kindly go away and try not to start arguments with people unless you bother to actually understand what the argument is first

Nice try but you have a habit as you well know of making unequivocal statements which others prove untrue and then you try to shift the point, change your position (I note the use of 'necessarily' in your view on coaches all of a sudden ;) ) or try to simply bury everything under relentless denial

I've no desire to have an argument per se but you keep on relentlessly saying rhings which are nonsense and then when people demonstrate you're wrong through examples you call them 'exceptions'

Just know that no-one's taken in by it

[HCZ_Reborn]

Nice try but you have a habit as you well know of making unequivocal statements which others prove untrue and then you try to shift the point, change your position (I note the use of 'necessarily' in your view on coaches all of a sudden ;) ) or try to simply bury everything under relentless denial

I've no desire to have an argument per se but you keep on relentlessly saying rhings which are nonsense and then when people demonstrate you're wrong through examples you call them 'exceptions'

Just know that no-one's taken in by it


So just to clarify again so I’m not misunderstanding you

I say I don’t want us to sign Gyokeres because I think it’s not a great idea to sign someone who is almost 27 and hasn’t played at any higher rate of domestic football than Portugal and your response is “Jamie Vardy ha ha I win”


I say that a club that spends the most money and has the best players will invariably win the biggest prizes or perform the best, and to that end who the coach is, is far more peripheral than a lot of people here think it is and your response is “Leicester City, Nottingham Forest and something about David Moyes, ha ha I win”


You can understand how from my perspective it’s a bit like me saying “you always have sandwiches for lunch”

And you saying “that’s a nonsense statement because one day five years ago I had a salad”


And another thing, it’s not people who are arguing with me like this. It’s you. Just you

If I didn’t know better, I’d say you were being petty minded because Ive held a mirror up to you as a person, and you keep denying it and giving examples of how I’m wrong about you that keep on inadvertently proving my point.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Seriously, I don’t think anyone is in any doubt that I can be a rude and condescending prick when the mood takes me. But unlike you it seems I’m actually aware of it. I’m actually discussing things with other people here (others might say for a change :lol:) in a respectful way and youre being a dick and showing that you didn’t even understand the point I was making before you decided to blunder in and try and refute it.
Now that’s not entirely your fault, as I think two other people misunderstood the point I was making, and whilst usually I’d make that their problem. Today I decided to be reasonable and explain it better. Do they agree with me? No but I don’t need them to, but they now know at least that I’m not talking about having a “pilotless team”

I’m fine with you being a bell end when I’m being one, but today? It just makes you seem quite childish for a man your age

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

But your post ignores many of the points that I have raised.

I did watch the Barca/Inter game last night and share your sentiment that the level appeared far higher for both teams than we have shown. What I fail to understand is how this relates to the arguments I have raised to put Arteta's performance with us into context.

Barca - 5x winners of the comp in the past 20 years. Inter 1x winners in this period, and finalists in 2022/23. Both teams with continuous participation in and experience of the comp for the past 7 seasons (Barca since 1998). Arsenal never winners and not even in the comp for 5 years prior to last season. Even then, Arteta matched Barca's performance last season and bettered Inter's. Surely you are not saying that because Arsenal's performance on Tuesday with a very depleted team did not match these two last night this should be the standard by which Arteta is judged. Put another way, would Inzaghi's or Flick's teams been as scintillating/effective with 2 of their best 3 MF's absent; no strikers; no first choice LCM and, say Lamal and Dumfries (who scored or assisted all 6 goals last night) at 70%? You also don't know how PSG - equally packed with talent - would have fared against either team.

Your 'favourite' for the EPL and the CL point cuts both ways BTW. At the time when this may have been the case - it was based on performances and results achieved by guess who - the manager you want rid of. I'm also not buying the choker tag. You can't apply this while at the same time ignoring our injuries. My view is that we might have prevailed on Tuesday with Partey playing. We even had good chances to win the match. Are these factors the manager's fault?

Is it naive to think that titles are won by sometimes incremental progression? Even the great Klopp - coming in with vastly more experience - took 4 seasons to win the league and having done so failed to do this again in his following 4 seasons. There are almost inevitably setbacks - success is often not linear. Yes Slot, and some Chelsea managers won the league at the first time of asking, but my above post pointed out Slot's advantages over Arteta, and Chelsea had financial advantages not available to him. Also, Arteta did not inherit a decent core of a team. He came into a club in complete disarray, with a mediocre and unbalanced team, and huge work to do to turn the ship around.

If you are panning Arteta for an admittedly disappointing league season this season, are you saying that had our first team remained largely fit this season we would not have had a decent shout at overhauling Liverpool?

Where I have more sympathy with you is taking the next step. We are yet to see how we do this, and I am reserving judgment until I do.

The main thrust of my above post was lamenting the lack of any balance and context in assessing our manager. HCZ at least acknowledges Arteta's achievements. The issue is not as black and white as people on both sides of the argument seem to think.

IBK, I want to keep this short as I don't have much free time on my hands today.

There will always be good and "solid" arguments for coming up second best, if we don't have/create them we lose our humanity and competition becomes an immoral, unhealthy and fatal concept, like it is in most of the Animal kingdom.

However, deep down we all know that winning and especially dominating requires a level of ruthlessness and conjuring that from the safety of "I tried my best with the hand I was dealt" is likely not going to get you there.

There were factors this season that hindered Arteta. He had no strikers, he had injuries. The first factor was called by every one in the press before the season started. The injuries is a hazard of the job that previously cost us his first proper title run. Next season there will still be some sort of adversarial situation he will need to get past. Its just the way things work.

As for Slot, every unbiased person will agree he started off this season on a weaker footing than Arteta or Pep, yet he prevailed. He had an unfamiliar ageing squad. He came from a different league. He had star players that shouldn't be commited as they had contracts that were ending. He had what everyone considered a vastly inferior team. There will always be adversarial issues one needs to get past, this what makes competition exciting to onlookers.

Also, no one is saying Arteta is a bad manager and hasn't achieved anything; what we are saying is he hasn't achieved what we want and what was expected at specific times; an example is the good fortune we were given with the implosion of Citeh earlier this season in the league. Another example is the good fortune of playing a CL semi final with a team we already beat 2-0.

Next season Citeh won't be this bad. Newcastle and Villa will probably keep improving. Chelsea or ManU could suddenly wake up. Injuries could come. The striker he signs could be a disappointment. Shit happens.

Look, there will always be reasons not to win, but at the end of the day, it's pretty simple, you likely didn't do enough or someone was better and more ruthless than you, which kind of still means you likely didn't do enough. One day you might just have to look in the mirror and recognise that you don't have that "umphh", that ruthlessness or the desire, that carries you through the finishing line, especially when 2nd best become a habit.

Ultimately, where we differ is you believe Arteta is the best person that can take advantage of "his' team and turn them to winners. What I am saying is I've seen little evidence that he has that "quality" that will allow him to do so. I am also saying their are other people who immediately can, as Slot has proven.

It's thin margins, you could be right, but you've (we've) been wrong for 6 seasons and counting.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I see it’s not just me, who says “I don’t have time to spend all day arguing” and then proceeds to write a short novella :lol:

[Mac76]

Seriously, I don’t think anyone is in any doubt that I can be a rude and condescending prick

Finally an accurate statement, progress :good:

[HCZ_Reborn]

As for Slot, every unbiased person will agree he started off this season on a weaker footing than Arteta or Pep, yet he prevailed. He had an unfamiliar ageing squad. He came from a different league. He had star players that shouldn't be commited as they had contracts that were ending. He had what everyone considered a vastly inferior team. There will always be adversarial issues one needs to get past, this what makes competition exciting to onlookers.




I think he had the third best squad in the league (second best in attack) and he had the fortune of having no one competing with him for the title. I’m honestly not trying to do him down, I actually like the fact that he’s humble. But if you compare Liverpool last season with it this season, there’s not a remarkable amount of difference, the main difference is how Arsenal and City have done by comparison.


Now I fully expected that Klopp’s departure would be disastrous for Liverpool, and that Liverpool not only would not compete for the title but would struggle to get top 4. So Slot deserves credit for defying this, but I would still argue that he wasn’t left with the club in a mess by Klopp (just in the same way that if Arteta fucks off, the next guy will be left with a pretty good setup) and actually the whole set up at Liverpool was conducive to a smooth transition

[Mac76]

So just to clarify again so I’m not misunderstanding you

I say I don’t want us to sign Gyokeres because I think it’s not a great idea to sign someone who is almost 27 and hasn’t played at any higher rate of domestic football than Portugal and your response is “Jamie Vardy ha ha I win”


I say that a club that spends the most money and has the best players will invariably win the biggest prizes or perform the best, and to that end who the coach is, is far more peripheral than a lot of people here think it is and your response is “Leicester City, Nottingham Forest and something about David Moyes, ha ha I win”


You can understand how from my perspective it’s a bit like me saying “you always have sandwiches for lunch”

And you saying “that’s a nonsense statement because one day five years ago I had a salad”


And another thing, it’s not people who are arguing with me like this. It’s you. Just you

If I didn’t know better, I’d say you were being petty minded because Ive held a mirror up to you as a person, and you keep denying it and giving examples of how I’m wrong about you that keep on inadvertently proving my point.

A lot of people disagree with you a lot of the time, I'm sure like me they just give up sometimes because you always counter and deny everything, but that's where my point about relentlessness comes in

And you've done it again ofc, re Gyokeres you specifically said a mid-20s player from the Chamiponship couldn't do well at PL level, on coaches you said just above somewhere that the coach didn't make a difference and then when people actually undertake the admittedly pointless exercise of tryi g to show you how wrong you are, in the vain hope you might avoid getting yourself into these situations so often, you play the man not the ball and roll out the faux psychologist stuff

All so predictable so yes, fool on me for taking up a train journey with it out of boredom :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

So verbatim the comment you responded to was “is it going to be made better by a player playing championship football in his mid twenties” and feel free to check if you don’t believe me

And your argument to that was “you’re wrong again because Vardy was playing at fleetwood town in his mid twenties”

So as I keep saying, you respond to what you think I’m saying rather than what I’m saying. Because you want to be right and therefore you come up with a response before you even consider what I’m actually saying

Don’t believe me, you probably think I’m gaslighting you….look for yourself

Have I ever done that? Argued what I think someone is saying rather than what they’ve said. All the time….i have a need to be right, therefore I can smell it on other people a mile off

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I see it’s not just me, who says “I don’t have time to spend all day arguing” and then proceeds to write a short novella :lol:

:lol: even I was surprised when I hit the post button.

Just overwhelmed today with babysitting duties.

[HCZ_Reborn]

As for the faux psychology stuff, I don’t think I tried to psychoanalyse you….i just said I think you jump on anything I say before even reading it because I’ve said what you consider to be mean and unfair things about you (which whilst they might be mean, are to my mind in no way unfair).

Honestly you do it all the time even when I haven’t said anything to you or even anything that even conceivably relates to you.

I’ll be honest when you first tried to correct me on inconsequential things like spelling a players name wrong or putting the scoreline in a way that no one but a pedant would care about, id think to myself “is this guy for real, does he think this remotely matters?”. Now I saw you doing it to other people as well but still felt weird behaviour.

Two things are true at once, I think everything I’ve said about what kind of person I think you are is honest (I don’t know if you are that which I take you to be, but you come across that way) but it’s also said because it gets a rise out of you.

And so yeah I think it’s exactly why you behave in such a petty and frankly childish way with me

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol: even I was surprised when I hit the post button.

Just overwhelmed today with babysitting duties.

I have a lot of regrets in my life but not having kids is not one of them. Of course I doubt I’d think that if I’d actually had kids. My brother like me was never a paternal person, but my nephew is his world.

But yeah keeping an eye on kids and getting that written, impressive feat

[IBK]

IBK, I want to keep this short as I don't have much free time on my hands today.

There will always be good and "solid" arguments for coming up second best, if we don't have/create them we lose our humanity and competition becomes an immoral, unhealthy and fatal concept, like it is in most of the Animal kingdom.

However, deep down we all know that winning and especially dominating requires a level of ruthlessness and conjuring that from the safety of "I tried my best with the hand I was dealt" is likely not going to get you there.

There were factors this season that hindered Arteta. He had no strikers, he had injuries. The first factor was called by every one in the press before the season started. The injuries is a hazard of the job that previously cost us his first proper title run. Next season there will still be some sort of adversarial situation he will need to get past. Its just the way things work.

As for Slot, every unbiased person will agree he started off this season on a weaker footing than Arteta or Pep, yet he prevailed. He had an unfamiliar ageing squad. He came from a different league. He had star players that shouldn't be commited as they had contracts that were ending. He had what everyone considered a vastly inferior team. There will always be adversarial issues one needs to get past, this what makes competition exciting to onlookers.

Also, no one is saying Arteta is a bad manager and hasn't achieved anything; what we are saying is he hasn't achieved what we want and what was expected at specific times; an example is the good fortune we were given with the implosion of Citeh earlier this season in the league. Another example is the good fortune of playing a CL semi final with a team we already beat 2-0.

Next season Citeh won't be this bad. Newcastle and Villa will probably keep improving. Chelsea or ManU could suddenly wake up. Injuries could come. The striker he signs could be a disappointment. Shit happens.

Look, there will always be reasons not to win, but at the end of the day, it's pretty simple, you likely didn't do enough or someone was better and more ruthless than you, which kind of still means you likely didn't do enough. One day you might just have to look in the mirror and recognise that you don't have that "umphh", that ruthlessness or the desire, that carries you through the finishing line, especially when 2nd best become a habit.

Ultimately, where we differ is you believe Arteta is the best person that can take advantage of "his' team and turn them to winners. What I am saying is I've seen little evidence that he has that "quality" that will allow him to do so. I am also saying their are other people who immediately can, as Slot has proven.

It's thin margins, you could be right, but you've (we've) been wrong for 6 seasons and counting.

Thing is, we are aligned on not wanting to finish second best. Of course not, and Arteta would be the first to say that this is not the aim with this team.

But as I keep trying to emphasise, context is everything.

Arteta inherited a shit show. There was no way that he was going to come in and achieve quick success. So we cannot hold our 2 8th places, and even his subsequent 5th placed finish against him. We led the league for much of the 2022/23 season but fell away at the end, finishing 2nd. We mostly addressed this in 23/4 but ended up losing the league to Citeh by just 2 points, on the final day. Arguably this was affected by our run in the CL - to the Quarters at Arteta's first time of asking. If this isn't clear evidence of progression (that you say there is little of), then I don't know what is.

So really we are down to this season. I am as disappointed as the next person by our failure to continue our upwards trajectory, and I blame Arteta and the club for not investing in our forward line last Summer. But this mis-step does not mean that Arteta should be regarded as incapable of correcting this and winning silverware next season. Yes, the competition will be tough as it almost always is - and Citeh in particular will strenghten. But we were 2 points away from toppling them last season when they were their usual imperious best. Does Arteta's record really prove that we can't do it? You acknowledge the adversity that we faced this season, but effectively dismiss this by saying that injuries are a hazard of the job. I don't think this is right. Our injuries - long term to 5 key players (Odegard clearly hasn't even recovered from his) - 3 of them season ending; at one stage being without Havertz; Jesus; Saka and Martinelli for a whole month is not a normal level of misfortune. You only have to look at how the mighty Citeh fared losing just 1 key player to put into context what Arteta has had to cope with. I'm afraid I can't buy this season's league finish as a proper judgment on our manager.

And whatever happens in Paris next week, only the most biased observer would not acknowledge both our progression in the CL under Arteta from not even being in the comp 2 years ago to now.

I'm afraid I could not disagree with you more re Slot. He was not on a weaker footing in reality. This so-called weaker footing on paper was because of the factors that you refer to - other than having a 'vastly inferior' team. Not only did these concerns not come to pass, but his ageing superstar, Salah - dragged them almost single handedly to the title - having arguably his best ever season. Even just looking at their attacking options, I think it's nonsense to say that Liverpool's squad was vastly inferior to ours. It was a very good squad put together over a number of years by Klopp, that clearly needed a fresh face and a little tweaking to shine. Plus they did not suffer the injuries to their key players that we did. Comparison to Slot would only be fair if Arteta had had Saka; Odegard and Havertz available all season, and it's far-fetched to me to suggest that Arteta would not have pushed them all the way. I am not diminishing Slot's achievement, but what has happened at Liverpool (a new manager winning a new league in his first season) is as rare as hens teeth and cannot be the realistic standard by which Arteta is judged.

My view is that Arteta must win something next year. If he fails to do so again - whether as a result of a failed Summer transfer window or otherwise - then we will need to reconsider his position. I make this point however on the basis that we cannot suffer a season so hit by injuries again.

[Mac76]

I think the lack of grace being shown to Liverpool is quite depressing

They won the league, which means they performed better than any other team this season - yes Citeh had a slump, (although from ridiculous heights which we've never seen before) and so did we, plus Chelsea etc are all over the place, but you can only beat who you play and they won at a canter

Yes Salah played very well but he doesn't score goals without a decent team to get him the ball and not concede too many at the other end, plus surely somewhere along the line you give Liverpool credit for keeping him, rather than selling for some daft sum to the Saudis? or credit them with buying Gakpo or, again, keeping Van Dyke? Or bringing through some promising younger players?

As for Slot, Salah god-mode or not, Klopp's not an easy act to follow but Slot very clearly adapted their play to suit their squad and it worked well, so well done to him and well done to Liverpool :good:

[HCZ_Reborn]

So just saying, if it gone the other way and we’d won the league instead of them. I would not care about fans of other clubs being graceful about us, in fact I’d be actively suspicious of it….nothing worse than false magnanimity.

From a liverpool fan’s perspective, they’d be well within their rights to read my opinions (which are honest) and say “cry more”. Because it’s exactly what I’d do in their place

I fully believe everything I’ve said about Liverpool, and even if I didn’t….they don’t get a “well done, well played” from me, in fact I feel I do them more respect with my contempt. I want them to fail next season…that’s praise enough

[Letters]

I think the lack of grace being shown to Liverpool is quite depressing

They won the league, which means they performed better than any other team this season - yes Citeh had a slump, (although from ridiculous heights which we've never seen before) and so did we, plus Chelsea etc are all over the place, but you can only beat who you play and they won at a canter

Yes Salah played very well but he doesn't score goals without a decent team to get him the ball and not concede too many at the other end, plus surely somewhere along the line you give Liverpool credit for keeping him, rather than selling for some daft sum to the Saudis? or credit them with buying Gakpo or, again, keeping Van Dyke? Or bringing through some promising younger players?

As for Slot, Salah god-mode or not, Klopp's not an easy act to follow but Slot very clearly adapted their play to suit their squad and it worked well, so well done to him and well done to Liverpool :good:

They obviously deserve some credit, but no-one pushed them this year.
Not their fault, you only have to be better than the next best side, but no-one really came close to putting any pressure on them. It would be interesting to know how they'd have coped had anyone really pushed them.
And Slot has obviously done well but he lucked out with the season Salah has had.
If Spurs win the Europa League ( :sick: ) then it will be awful, but they've not been sweeping aside the cream of Europe. I'd never heard of their opposition last night.
Back to Liverpool I believe there was a season they won the FA Cup and didn't play a PL side at any stage. Again, not their fault but it's fair to say in that scenario they got pretty lucky with their run.

I don't think Liverpool have been lucky - I mean, they've had a few things go for them but overall you don't win the title by luck. But they have been the best in a season where no-one else has been much good. In the same way that Spurs and Man Utd are fortunate that the bottom 3 are so awful that they're not looking over their shoulders right now.

In brief: fuck 'em.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t know if you remember a brash Middlesborough fan who had a column on BBC Sport called Derek “Robbo” Robson.

Used to record a short audio in the days before podcasts became a thing. And I wrote in to him after they’d knocked us out of the league cup semis in 2004, to say “oh well done, you deserve it…Hope you win the final”. And he read out my message and said “Well Mr such and such a person, that’s very gracious of you…that’s a very nice sentiment”.

And i thought, well grace and magnanimity are easy when you don’t care enough to be that bothered. It was the league cup, Wenger didn’t care about it given the teams put out (especially at Highbury) and I didn’t care either….it was the league I wanted and it was the league eventually I got.

Was I ever going to be as graceful to Chelsea for knocking us out of the champions league two months later, was I fuck?

[Mac76]

In brief: fuck 'em.

:lol:

One thing I will say in terms of luck, the refs give Van Djik a lot of leeway, if that was one of our CBs there'd be a lot mroe cards shown/pels given for some of what he does...