When will Arteta be sacked by

[Letters]

No, it's just a POV you don't agree with, but as I keep.pointing out (and no-one has dealt with), it's an approach taken by other clubs including Chelsea which netted them a hatful of honours
When Chelsea also pumped in a metric shit-ton of money.
There are many more clubs who have chopped and changed managers without success.
Arteta has absolutely earned the right to try and push us on next season whatever happens for the rest of this season. If he doesn’t and this is the peak then ok, maybe it is time to consider handing over to someone else. But doing so now would be mental.

[Mac76]

The money point is fair but ultimately it's not mental, just something you don't agree with

Anyway i succeeded in creating a debate of sorts I suppose, although only Mandela remotely got it

[HCZ_Reborn]

The money point is fair but ultimately it's not mental, just something you don't agree with

Anyway i succeeded in creating a debate of sorts I suppose, although only Mandela remotely got it


I got it, i just think you’re wrong

Chelsea’s managerial roulette wheel spin has often a) proved not to work and b) is more of a reflection on how toxic the club is and how it’s impossible for anyone to do a good job there long term

Plus look how much money they spaffed up the wall on hiring Potter (having to buy out the remainder of his contract with Brighton) and even more to sack him…they’ve got for Lampard as a caretaker because it’s the cheapest option because there’s only so many accountancy tricks you can do.

The other reason the suggestion you’ve floated doesn’t work is simply because you don’t even have anyone you could immediately say would do a better job than Arteta. This is not because of how good Arteta is but more a reflection on how in this money drenched era the influence of a coach has become more and more marginal.

[Marc Overmars]

Chelsea is a huge outlier. It’s worked for them because they’ve generally always had a very strong squad, not only full of the leagues best talent but also big voices and leaders. Only Mourinho has made a real lasting impact there, everyone else just picks up the baton and runs with it before they’re discarded and forgotten about.

That’s not a route I want to see us go down. Arteta botched the game on Sunday for sure and he’s not flawless by any means, but after years of utter misery where it got to the point where I didn’t even care if we won or lost, I’m grateful that he’s restored my faith in Arsenal. He deserves the time to see this “process” through.

Of course if we revert to type next year then questions can rightly be asked.

[Mac76]

All good points,I admit I've no idea what other coaches are out there and yes Arteta overall has improved the team, plus as per somewhere above I don't want us to replicate Chelsea in general but a certain ruthlessness can be useful

I just wish the bit of Arteta that sees only good in people like Xhaka and Zin coild be surgically removed :lol:

[IBK]

All managers have their flaws and their favourites, and opinions will always be subjective. The truth is that our manager isn't perfect, but 73 points after 30 games speaks for itself...no one has done better so far this season. Even if we finish second to a cheating nation state of a team, Arteta will have worked miracles to get us here.

[Mac76]

Miracles no, a very good job, yes

The miracle will come if we win from here... :)

[Marc Overmars]

Miracles no, a very good job, yes

The miracle will come if we win from here... :)

Agree with this.

Incredible job up until now but the only definitive way to prove himself is to win the title.

[IBK]

Miracles no, a very good job, yes

The miracle will come if we win from here... :)

Fair enough :good:

[IBK]

Miracles no, a very good job, yes

The miracle will come if we win from here... :)

Fair enough :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

All managers have their flaws and their favourites, and opinions will always be subjective. The truth is that our manager isn't perfect, but 73 points after 30 games speaks for itself...no one has done better so far this season. Even if we finish second to a cheating nation state of a team, Arteta will have worked miracles to get us here.

Agree with that. Close on a miracle. People seem to have forgotten just how bad the team, and in fact the whole club, was last season. And the season before that, etc. Arteta has somehow managed to put together a somewhat competent team from very slim pickings. Even Klopp can't get his pampered little bastards to put some effort in, but Arteta has somehow motivated our lot to turn up on a consistent basis which is impressive in the modern game. His "favourites" are most likely the key individuals he can't do without in case it all falls back to hell again. People don't like the way Xhaka plays, they want some high rent alternative in there instead. Fine, but make sure the replacement brings fire and commitment because it's in short supply elsewhere and not a drop can be lost or spared.

[Globalgunner]

We are again starting to exhibit the same "2nd is alright" mentality that kept Wenger here a decade too long.

If we blow the title from here on. Nothing suggests we will mount a challenge next season, especially if nothing fundamentally changes about the manager and team

The flaws are the same and there for all to see, We cannot cope under adversity or undue pressure. The right mentality is applied either by the manager or better still the players themselves. I cant say we have the players. The flaky ones are still the undroppables in this team.

[Marc Overmars]

I’m not sure about that, we blew 4th last season and many wondered if that was as good as it was going to get. Yet here we are 12 months latter challenging for the league.

We’ve taken some giant strides forward this season and although it’s now looking like it’s one hurdle too many, I think this team has a high enough ceiling to come again. Sprinkle some more signings on top of what is already a reasonably good squad, I think we’ll be in the mix again. CL football to come as well so as downbeat as I am right now, I have to accept that we’ve exceeded expectations so I’m not going to micro-analyse it too much. We’re going to lose out to a doped up goliath of a team, probably the strongest the league has ever had. Got to take it on the chin.

[selassie]

We are again starting to exhibit the same "2nd is alright" mentality that kept Wenger here a decade too long.

If we blow the title from here on. Nothing suggests we will mount a challenge next season, especially if nothing fundamentally changes about the manager and team

The flaws are the same and there for all to see, We cannot cope under adversity or undue pressure. The right mentality is applied either by the manager or better still the players themselves. I cant say we have the players. The flaky ones are still the undroppables in this team.

Man City are winning it just as much as we are bottling it so to speak. The crazy thing is we are all losing our sh*t over the team drawing 2 away games whilst still being ahead in the race, that is how much things have changed for us and the team from this time last season.

I want us to win, I am only really interested in 1st place, but it is what it is. I pretty much agree with MO's take on things in his post above.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’d say we are all going to be in danger of making extreme statements that don’t chime with reality. It’s understandable…we all love this club (arguably far more than is healthy at times :haha:) and a massive disappointment like this brings out a release of pent up emotion that is often just directionless.

When lightning strikes twice it’s more than reasonable to ask questions about how well we’ve insulated ourselves

Arteta often comes across to me as someone who will blame the players but not himself. He’s screaming at the players to calm down….that’s like shouting at your dog when it’s barking incessantly…it’s just going to feed off your agitation.

I also think we have a squad that isn’t rotated well enough. Too many players are undroppable when they really shouldn’t be

But I certainly don’t advocate burning it all to the ground and starting again

[Mac76]

I’m not sure about that, we blew 4th last season and many wondered if that was as good as it was going to get. Yet here we are 12 months latter challenging for the league.

We’ve taken some giant strides forward this season and although it’s now looking like it’s one hurdle too many, I think this team has a high enough ceiling to come again. Sprinkle some more signings on top of what is already a reasonably good squad, I think we’ll be in the mix again. CL football to come as well so as downbeat as I am right now, I have to accept that we’ve exceeded expectations so I’m not going to micro-analyse it too much. We’re going to lose out to a doped up goliath of a team, probably the strongest the league has ever had. Got to take it on the chin.

Sort of agree, although looking forward (and without wanting to revisit the debate we had a few days ago) the thing that makes me a little pessimistic is, as others say here, the issue of seemingly undroppable players and what that says about Arteta's approach

He also isn't handling subs well - he didn't bring on the real game-changers - Nelson, Trossard - early enough and left Saka on while taking Jesus off

[Globalgunner]

This is an outlier of a season for us. bit like Leicester winning it in 2016. They were winning at a canter and started to stumble in the last 6 games or so. What saved that season want so much themselves but the other chasing teams bottling it in the last with everyone taking points off each other. The same reason we went from CL places to 2nd in the last 2 games. None of us saw this season coming last September. I see no basis for a challenge nest season, I hope Im wrong.

[Chippy]

We are again starting to exhibit the same "2nd is alright" mentality that kept Wenger here a decade too long.

If we blow the title from here on. Nothing suggests we will mount a challenge next season, especially if nothing fundamentally changes about the manager and team

The flaws are the same and there for all to see, We cannot cope under adversity or undue pressure. The right mentality is applied either by the manager or better still the players themselves. I cant say we have the players. The flaky ones are still the undroppables in this team.

IF we blow the title? That was started at Anfield last week and finished today at the London Stadium. :rose:

[Mac76]

IF we blow the title? That was started at Anfield last week and finished today at the London Stadium. :rose:

:gp:

Winning today was only going to keep a very small flame alive although I'd already pretty much given up - today just confirms it

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

We are again starting to exhibit the same "2nd is alright" mentality that kept Wenger here a decade too long.

If we blow the title from here on. Nothing suggests we will mount a challenge next season, especially if nothing fundamentally changes about the manager and team

The flaws are the same and there for all to see, We cannot cope under adversity or undue pressure. The right mentality is applied either by the manager or better still the players themselves. I cant say we have the players. The flaky ones are still the undroppables in this team.

:gp:

[Letters]

IF we blow the title? That was started at Anfield last week and finished today at the London Stadium. :rose:

Have we “blown it” though?
Last week was disappointing but Liverpool have an excellent home record and while yes we were 2-0 up, Liverpool certainly had the chances to win it. You can just as equally look at it as a point gained as 2 points dropped. Today was certainly a balls up, but any normal teams has days like this. But City aren’t normal, they are just relentless. Since they beat us they drew at Forest - and they absolutely battered them, it’s a minor miracle that ended 1-1. And they’ve won the rest. All while cruising through FA Cup and CL rounds like they’re not there.
They’re a jugganaut who are mowing us down. We’ve not exactly collapsed, we won 7 in a row and City just kept pace with us. We always knew that injuries would affect us more than them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Have we “blown it” though?
Last week was disappointing but Liverpool have an excellent home record and while yes we were 2-0 up, Liverpool certainly had the chances to win it. You can just as equally look at it as a point gained as 2 points dropped. Today was certainly a balls up, but any normal teams has days like this. But City aren’t normal, they are just relentless. Since they beat us they drew at Forest - and they absolutely battered them, it’s a minor miracle that ended 1-1. And they’ve won the rest. All while cruising through FA Cup and CL rounds like they’re not there.
They’re a jugganaut who are mowing us down. We’ve not exactly collapsed, we won 7 in a row and City just kept pace with us. We always knew that injuries would affect us more than them.

Anfield was forgivable but disappointing

To replay the same mistake twice in a week is unforgivable

[Letters]

We are again starting to exhibit the same "2nd is alright" mentality that kept Wenger here a decade too long.

Not really. The context is a side who collapsed when top 4 was in our hands last season and who finished 24 points off the title. If anyone has told me that with 7 games to go the title was not only mathematically possible but actually in our hands I’d have laughed in their stupid faces.
We have been brilliant pretty much all season and while I agree we won’t get a better chance of the title, I don’t feel that 2nd is completely unacceptable in the context of where we’ve been the last few years. It’s disappointing to miss out, certainly, but I just don’t know how you compete with the jugganaut that is City. We’ve done well to go toe to toe with them for as long as we have, it’s not exactly a disgrace to finish 2nd to them.
There certainly is room for improvement and we need to bolster the squad to cope with the CL this season; but you can’t ignore pre season expectations and the context of the last few years when assessing this season.

[Letters]

Anfield was forgivable but disappointing

To replay the same mistake twice in a week is unforgivable
I’m not defending today’s balls up.
I hope Arteta has laid in to them and they respond.
But every team in every season has the occasional slips. All except City who just…don’t. Not got nothing have they won 4 out of the last 5 titles. Liverpool have got over 90 points twice and not won it. The Invincibles probably wouldn’t have won it against this City team. It’s insane.
So while sure, today wasn’t good enough, I can’t really fault our efforts this season and if City weren’t at this level - and we all know how they’ve got there - I think we’d have won the title this year. And as I said above, in the context of where we’ve been it’s been a remarkable effort from us this year

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m not defending today’s balls up.
I hope Arteta has laid in to them and they respond.
But every team in every season has the occasional slips. All except City who just…don’t. Not got nothing have they won 4 out of the last 5 titles. Liverpool have got over 90 points twice and not won it. The Invincibles probably wouldn’t have won it against this City team. It’s insane.
So while sure, today wasn’t good enough, I can’t really fault our efforts this season and if City weren’t at this level - and we all know how they’ve got there - I think we’d have won the title this year. And as I said above, in the context of where we’ve been it’s been a remarkable effort from us this year

In fairness we are talking about today rather than the whole season. We said back in October/November that we didn’t expect to win it but if we were in contention but missed out we would be quite disgruntled. This has been something we didn’t dare hope entertain.

It’s possible both to consider this season a spectacular achievement and a big disappointment

[selassie]

This is an outlier of a season for us. bit like Leicester winning it in 2016. They were winning at a canter and started to stumble in the last 6 games or so. What saved that season want so much themselves but the other chasing teams bottling it in the last with everyone taking points off each other. The same reason we went from CL places to 2nd in the last 2 games. None of us saw this season coming last September. I see no basis for a challenge nest season, I hope Im wrong.

No this is nothing like the Leicester season. For a start, back then there wasn't a dominant team, now we have Man City, serial title winners, they have won 4 of the last 5. For the past 5 seasons, it has been City and Liverpool going toe to toe, bar one season. This season it's City and us, that's really the only thing that has changed because there has only been 2 teams that have fought for titles.

Admittedly other fancied teams like Chelsea and Liverpool are struggling, but the one thing that remains the same is City fighting for the title. To win the title these days you have to be near perfect, it's why Liverpool have come second so many seasons despite amassing 90+ points or close to it.

I personally think Arteta has built up a very good squad that is young and hungry. We play very exciting Football now, second only really to Man City. I don't think this is a outlier season for us. I believe if we continue to recruit well we will be challenging for titles going forward.

Nobody expected us to improve this much including me, but the proof is there for all to see. We are not perfect, far from it. But we look in very good shape to challenge going forward. We need to make sure our recruitment is spot on to say at this current level though and we need further improvement from the current squad. They are young, the potential is there.

[Letters]

It’s possible both to consider this season a spectacular achievement and a big disappointment
That’s exactly how I see it.
We’ve been brilliant this season and for it all to be for naught is a bitter disappointment.
Especially given I’ve always felt it’s now or never, City aren’t going away, other teams are building or rebuilding.
Re our exchange in the match thread, my head has always thought that City would ultimately steamroll us, but at times my heart has allowed the possibility that we might do it.
After the Spurs and Utd games I did start to dream. Then we had The Wobble. After the City game I thought it was all over, you don’t lose at home to your rivals and win the title. But…our response has been fantastic, you can’t argue with 7 wins in a row. But City just keep coming at us.
We’ve wobbled again, City will probably overtake us on the home straight. But as bad as today was it hasn’t (so far) been a completely unacceptable collapse.

[mandela8]

Arteta's subs are fuckin mental, man.

Last week it was trying to shut up shop on 79 minutes taking the only decent outlets we had off, just inviting more pressure.

This week it was taking Jesus and Odegaard off when we needed a goal.

Just baffling.

Players like Saka and Xhaka who offer absolutely nothing remain untouchable. It's almost self sabotage. I can normally rationalize bad (ones I don't agree with) decisions but I'm at a loss today.

[Marc Overmars]

In fairness we are talking about today rather than the whole season. We said back in October/November that we didn’t expect to win it but if we were in contention but missed out we would be quite disgruntled. This has been something we didn’t dare hope entertain.

It’s possible both to consider this season a spectacular achievement and a big disappointment

Wouldn’t quite say finishing 2nd is a spectacular achievement but I get the sentiment. This is probably the first season in 20 years that we’ve all seen and felt a real, tangible improvement. We’ve taken some great strides forward this season and Arteta should be commended for that. Though some of his tactical decisions have been bizarre to say the least…

Unfortunately history isn’t going to remember that Arsenal were really good in 22/23 unless we see this through and that’s why it’s going to be a crushing disappointment, especially as we’ve been on top practically the whole season.

To win the league now you have to be near perfect or hope Man City fall off a cliff, which isn’t going to happen while Pep is around. It’s ridiculous but that’s just where the bar is at currently. I wouldn’t be surprised if they won the treble to boot.

[Chippy]

Anfield was forgivable but disappointing

To replay the same mistake twice in a week is unforgivable

In addition, our defending leading to their penalty was shocking. Especially the challenge by Gabriel. He is a bloody liability. A more reliable central defender is needed in the summer.

[Mac76]

Arteta's subs are fuckin mental, man.

Last week it was trying to shut up shop on 79 minutes taking the only decent outlets we had off, just inviting more pressure.

This week it was taking Jesus and Odegaard off when we needed a goal.

Just baffling.

Players like Saka and Xhaka who offer absolutely nothing remain untouchable. It's almost self sabotage. I can normally rationalize bad (ones I don't agree with) decisions but I'm at a loss today.

I agree, people can go on about City's relentlessness but, just as our success has been partly down to Arteta, so are our failures - today and last week were self-inflicted by a manager who has favourites and no plan B, when things go wrong he often makes the wrong decisions on who to bring on, who to take off and when

[HCZ_Reborn]

I agree, people can go on about City's relentlessness but, just as our success has been partly down to Arteta, so are our failures - today and last week were self-inflicted by a manager who has favourites and no plan B, when things go wrong he often makes the wrong decisions on who to bring on, who to take off and when

I don’t think there are many who would disagree with that, the point is more these errors are going to be punished because of the relentlessness of city. The last time we won the league we drew 12 times, and the game that won us the league we threw away a two goal lead.
Napoli are likely to be champions despite a drop in form where they’ve drawn again this weekend and were recently beaten 4-0 at home to Milan
Barcelona have failed to score in their last two games in La liga but are comfortably ahead
The thing is you’re right, we fucked up the last two games…but the point being made is that you simply can’t afford any fuck ups with a machine like City

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11978383/amp/Arsenal-talks-Mikel-Artetas-new-contract-HOLD-avoid-distractions-title-push.html

Some good news....being too quick to reward failure has been our culture for too long.

1 FA cup (and actually 1 final) in 4 years is nothing to do a song and dance about.

[Mac76]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11978383/amp/Arsenal-talks-Mikel-Artetas-new-contract-HOLD-avoid-distractions-title-push.html

Some good news....being too quick to reward failure has been our culture for too long.

1 FA cup (and actually 1 final) in 4 years is nothing to do a song and dance about.

£8.3m a year and he was the only person in the world yesterday who didn't realiae he should take Saka off instead of Jesus

[Letters]

I don’t think there are many who would disagree with that, the point is more these errors are going to be punished because of the relentlessness of city. The last time we won the league we drew 12 times, and the game that won us the league we threw away a two goal lead.
Napoli are likely to be champions despite a drop in form where they’ve drawn again this weekend and were recently beaten 4-0 at home to Milan
Barcelona have failed to score in their last two games in La liga but are comfortably ahead
The thing is you’re right, we fucked up the last two games…but the point being made is that you simply can’t afford any fuck ups with a machine like City

I looked back over the last 5 seasons. City's points average over the last 5 years is 91.6. Their average is more than The Invincibles got. It's mental.
Liverpool got 92 points in one season and 97 in another and didn't win the title either time. :blink:
The only time City have failed to win it is when Liverpool went absolutely mental and blitzed everyone.
Yesterday was unacceptable. Liverpool wasn't great but more forgivable given their home record and the saves Ramsdale made to keep us level at the end.
But we are up against the Usain Bolt of football. They were always likely to mow us down. I just hope we keep going and at least make them work for it, a collapse now would be unforgiveable.

[HCZ_Reborn]

£8.3m a year and he was the only person in the world yesterday who didn't realiae he should take Saka off instead of Jesus

One suspects that Arteta is probably of the mindset that Jesus needs to avoid being played for 90 minutes given he’s only been back for a month, I feel that’s a mistake but I don’t have the benefit of seeing what he sees on the training pitch. He also may have felt that pulling Saka might have dented his confidence after the penalty miss. Who knows.

Or he worried that Jesus was going to get himself sent off after picking up a silly yellow card in the first half

That’s the problem, things might seem obvious but there might be more to it….or it could just be a tactical blunder from someone being Galaxy brained.

The thing is there won’t be a time where I think something should have been done differently, it’s part of being a football fan and it’s especially so when you’re quite opinionated.

Would I have removed Jesus yesterday? No. Would I have removed Odegaard? Depends on what Smith Rowe had been like in training.

On the other hand we felt he should pull Partey and he did…did it work? Not really

I have a feeling no matter who we brought on yesterday wouldn’t have made a difference, there was an air of panic in the team. We were cruising and West Ham reminded us we were in a game and like against Liverpool we did not respond in a way conducive to winning the game. We shit the bed

[Marc Overmars]

Hoping Saka is benched against Southampton.

Love the kid but I don’t think he’s been particularly good of late. I think we’re missing a trick not starting Trossard.

[Mac76]

@MO - agree, Trossard needs a start and Saka needs a rest

@HCZ - I think Jorginho on a normal day is better than Partey on a bad day so was the right move

as for ESR, i really have my doubts about whether he's going to make it here, i don't see how he fits in, he seems too much of a drift-in-and-out type

I'm much more concerned about making sure Nelson gets enough game time and that we keep him, i still think Arteta underestimates waht he can do, he is one of our very few potential game-changers

[IBK]

One suspects that Arteta is probably of the mindset that Jesus needs to avoid being played for 90 minutes given he’s only been back for a month, I feel that’s a mistake but I don’t have the benefit of seeing what he sees on the training pitch. He also may have felt that pulling Saka might have dented his confidence after the penalty miss. Who knows.

Or he worried that Jesus was going to get himself sent off after picking up a silly yellow card in the first half

That’s the problem, things might seem obvious but there might be more to it….or it could just be a tactical blunder from someone being Galaxy brained.

The thing is there won’t be a time where I think something should have been done differently, it’s part of being a football fan and it’s especially so when you’re quite opinionated.

Would I have removed Jesus yesterday? No. Would I have removed Odegaard? Depends on what Smith Rowe had been like in training.

On the other hand we felt he should pull Partey and he did…did it work? Not really

I have a feeling no matter who we brought on yesterday wouldn’t have made a difference, there was an air of panic in the team. We were cruising and West Ham reminded us we were in a game and like against Liverpool we did not respond in a way conducive to winning the game. We shit the bed

Agree with your post. The part in bold is particularly true. I suspect that even Citeh fans have felt the same about the best manager in the world at times this season. A manager who can never be criticised for a decision in a key moment does not exist, and it is astonishing to see the post above claiming its good news for us that there is talk of Arteta being chased by PSG is crazy.

We bottled it yesterday. Simple as. I agree that the subs were inconsequential yesterday. The manager was not responsible for Partey having his worst game this season, nor for the majority of our players being below par and far too casual once we went 0-2 up. It's not down to Arteta that we had injuries to 3 key players - nor even that if you take Saliba and Zinchenko out of our team the Arsenal machine misfires. We are not on financial steroids like the team who will win the league, and perhaps it was always going to be the case that we needed luck with injuries for the run in to finish top - that has deserted us when it counted.

Where the real disappointment comes for me is that similar to the sharp end of last season, our players cannot play the occasion. We have seen this twice in a row now. The quality of our team has improved, and our league position does not lie. But we remain brittle, and we lack the composure and self-belief to be champions. I feel that our last 2 games will be the analogy for our season. Excellent at times but thrown away when it counted. Its easy at the moment to feel that we will never reach the level that Citeh display season after season - consistency when it really matters. We have exceeded expectations, but it doesn't feel like that when we keep returning to type. I would have loved to prove all the sceptics wrong, but I don't think we will do so.

[IBK]

@MO - agree, Trossard needs a start and Saka needs a rest

@HCZ - I think Jorginho on a normal day is better than Partey on a bad day so was the right move

as for ESR, i really have my doubts about whether he's going to make it here, i don't see how he fits in, he seems too much of a drift-in-and-out type

I'm much more concerned about making sure Nelson gets enough game time and that we keep him, i still think Arteta underestimates waht he can do, he is one of our very few potential game-changers

Disappointing that he was given too little time to try to do so. But we had aready shat the bed at the time that the sub should have been made.

[HCZ_Reborn]

@MO - agree, Trossard needs a start and Saka needs a rest

@HCZ - I think Jorginho on a normal day is better than Partey on a bad day so was the right move

as for ESR, i really have my doubts about whether he's going to make it here, i don't see how he fits in, he seems too much of a drift-in-and-out type

I'm much more concerned about making sure Nelson gets enough game time and that we keep him, i still think Arteta underestimates waht he can do, he is one of our very few potential game-changers

I wasn’t saying it was the wrong move, I just don’t necessarily think it made the difference we were hoping for and to that end I’m suggesting that even if Arteta had made the substitutions we think he should have made it possibly wouldn’t have changed all that much.

I’m torn on Smith Rowe I tend to think we are better off selling him, but I also do think he’s a player that whilst not a starter clearly has enough ability to be an impact substitute

I’m less convinced about Reiss Nelson than you are, I just think he isn’t physically strong enough for the premier league. But again I’m open minded enough to think I could be wrong about that

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agree with your post. The part in bold is particularly true. I suspect that even Citeh fans have felt the same about the best manager in the world at times this season. A manager who can never be criticised for a decision in a key moment does not exist, and it is astonishing to see the post above claiming its good news for us that there is talk of Arteta being chased by PSG is crazy.

We bottled it yesterday. Simple as. I agree that the subs were inconsequential yesterday. The manager was not responsible for Partey having his worst game this season, nor for the majority of our players being below par and far too casual once we went 0-2 up. It's not down to Arteta that we had injuries to 3 key players - nor even that if you take Saliba and Zinchenko out of our team the Arsenal machine misfires. We are not on financial steroids like the team who will win the league, and perhaps it was always going to be the case that we needed luck with injuries for the run in to finish top - that has deserted us when it counted.

Where the real disappointment comes for me is that similar to the sharp end of last season, our players cannot play the occasion. We have seen this twice in a row now. The quality of our team has improved, and our league position does not lie. But we remain brittle, and we lack the composure and self-belief to be champions. I feel that our last 2 games will be the analogy for our season. Excellent at times but thrown away when it counted. Its easy at the moment to feel that we will never reach the level that Citeh display season after season - consistency when it really matters. We have exceeded expectations, but it doesn't feel like that when we keep returning to type. I would have loved to prove all the sceptics wrong, but I don't think we will do so.

Agree

It’s interesting because the players themselves seemed to recognise it, Odegaard was very open about what went wrong and now the passing which was second nature just wasn’t coming off.

Then again recognising it is one thing, being able to do anything about it is quite another

[selassie]

I agree, people can go on about City's relentlessness but, just as our success has been partly down to Arteta, so are our failures - today and last week were self-inflicted by a manager who has favourites and no plan B, when things go wrong he often makes the wrong decisions on who to bring on, who to take off and when

Man City's relentlessness is factual stuff, they go on deep winning runs at the business end of every season hence why they have won 4 of the past 5 titles, we can ignore it if we want but it is what happens every season. It's not even like we have collapsed either, yeah we have dropped points in crucial games that we were seemingly in control of, that's really on the players, the fact it has happened in consecutive weeks is a major concern though.

Arteta is still learning on the job and has his faults, I've not really gone too much into his substitutions as I still don't think we have enough match winners or difference makers off the bench yet. The squad is still evolving and we will need to improve it quite a bit in the summer if we want to navigate CL and a proper Title challenge next season.

I do agree Arteta makes some very questionable decisions, up at Liverpool was ridiculous bringing on Kiwor. Even yesterday I would have kept on Odegaard, the Jesus substitution could well be because they are still easing him back in, I don't know.

[selassie]

I looked back over the last 5 seasons. City's points average over the last 5 years is 91.6. Their average is more than The Invincibles got. It's mental.
Liverpool got 92 points in one season and 97 in another and didn't win the title either time. :blink:
The only time City have failed to win it is when Liverpool went absolutely mental and blitzed everyone.
Yesterday was unacceptable. Liverpool wasn't great but more forgivable given their home record and the saves Ramsdale made to keep us level at the end.
But we are up against the Usain Bolt of football. They were always likely to mow us down. I just hope we keep going and at least make them work for it, a collapse now would be unforgiveable.

:gp:

Yep, this is the point I have been banging on about.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Agree with your post. The part in bold is particularly true. I suspect that even Citeh fans have felt the same about the best manager in the world at times this season. A manager who can never be criticised for a decision in a key moment does not exist, and it is astonishing to see the post above claiming its good news for us that there is talk of Arteta being chased by PSG is crazy.

We bottled it yesterday. Simple as. I agree that the subs were inconsequential yesterday. The manager was not responsible for Partey having his worst game this season, nor for the majority of our players being below par and far too casual once we went 0-2 up. It's not down to Arteta that we had injuries to 3 key players - nor even that if you take Saliba and Zinchenko out of our team the Arsenal machine misfires. We are not on financial steroids like the team who will win the league, and perhaps it was always going to be the case that we needed luck with injuries for the run in to finish top - that has deserted us when it counted.

Where the real disappointment comes for me is that similar to the sharp end of last season, our players cannot play the occasion. We have seen this twice in a row now. The quality of our team has improved, and our league position does not lie. But we remain brittle, and we lack the composure and self-belief to be champions. I feel that our last 2 games will be the analogy for our season. Excellent at times but thrown away when it counted. Its easy at the moment to feel that we will never reach the level that Citeh display season after season - consistency when it really matters. We have exceeded expectations, but it doesn't feel like that when we keep returning to type. I would have loved to prove all the sceptics wrong, but I don't think we will do so.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.... throwing 2-0 leads twice in a row in 7 days to sides struggling (and fatigued) isn't the Managers fault or down to his decisions, but when we were beating teams black and blue it was all about his greatness and how he sets up his team.

Come on give me a break.

For ages their has been a consensus on here that if theirs a weak or naive part of the Rookies game, its the way he uses his bench and subs; we are either complaining that he is running players into the ground (Saka), or ignoring his favourites messing up and being ineffectual (Xhaka, Zin etc.)...saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a bloody cop out! Pep and Klopp have always shocked us with subs before the half hour limit once they see something isn't quite right...our more experienced former manager who is doing a great job at Villa use to do the same thing too... always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me. But if I am being honest, I can see how it could build character, the same way I can see how dropping points and repeatedly falling over hurdles kills any character that was suppose to have been built!!

I really don't get why we as fans would prefer not to analyse our team and coach but instead stay firmly fixated on another teams record, lionising every effing thing about them ...its just too pathetic.

It wasn't Citeh who knocked us out of The Europa league, they didn't knock us out of the League cup...they are not responsible for the fact that he has only reached one final in 4 years .....and TBH, even if they end up beating us this month, that loss will not be the loss that meant we could not win the title this year ( we dropped 4 points in 7 days while being 2 nil up, who effing does that while chasing a title!!)...lets actually look at what we can control and scream about our weaknesses until they are adequately addressed....thats if some of us want to move forward or want to keep on bitching for another 20 years.

[selassie]

Agree with your post. The part in bold is particularly true. I suspect that even Citeh fans have felt the same about the best manager in the world at times this season. A manager who can never be criticised for a decision in a key moment does not exist, and it is astonishing to see the post above claiming its good news for us that there is talk of Arteta being chased by PSG is crazy.

We bottled it yesterday. Simple as. I agree that the subs were inconsequential yesterday. The manager was not responsible for Partey having his worst game this season, nor for the majority of our players being below par and far too casual once we went 0-2 up. It's not down to Arteta that we had injuries to 3 key players - nor even that if you take Saliba and Zinchenko out of our team the Arsenal machine misfires. We are not on financial steroids like the team who will win the league, and perhaps it was always going to be the case that we needed luck with injuries for the run in to finish top - that has deserted us when it counted.

Where the real disappointment comes for me is that similar to the sharp end of last season, our players cannot play the occasion. We have seen this twice in a row now. The quality of our team has improved, and our league position does not lie. But we remain brittle, and we lack the composure and self-belief to be champions. I feel that our last 2 games will be the analogy for our season. Excellent at times but thrown away when it counted. Its easy at the moment to feel that we will never reach the level that Citeh display season after season - consistency when it really matters. We have exceeded expectations, but it doesn't feel like that when we keep returning to type. I would have loved to prove all the sceptics wrong, but I don't think we will do so.

Or it could be a mixture of bottle and lack of quality. Maybe we don't have the squad yet to compete and this is all hypothetical as technically it is still in our hands. This season was always going to be about keeping our key players fit for most of the season which we have done pretty much up until now. We have seen the drop in quality when Saliba is out, we have seen it when Partey was out even though he was awful yesterday and not great up at Anfield either.

If for example Saliba would have missed large parts of this season I don't even think we would be in this position. I am not saying we haven't started to bottle it and I do question the mentality of this team at times but you could argue we also don't have the squad quality yet.

One thing we need to do is improve it in the summer for CL & PL next season, Holding at 3rd choice CB is not good enough, neither are our centre midfield (not Ode) options outside of Xhaka, Partey and Jorginho who are all getting on.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Excuses, excuses, excuses.... throwing 2-0 leads twice in a row in 7 days to sides struggling (and fatigued) isn't the Managers fault or down to his decisions, but when we were beating teams black and blue it was all about his greatness and how he sets up his team.

Come on give me a break.

For ages their has been a consensus on here that if theirs a weak or naive part of the Rookies game, its the way he uses his bench and subs; we are either complaining that he is running players into the ground (Saka), or ignoring his favourites messing up and being ineffectual (Xhaka, Zin etc.)...saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a bloody cop out! Pep and Klopp have always shocked us with subs before the half hour limit once they see something isn't quite right...our more experienced former manager who is doing a great job at Villa use to do the same thing too... always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me. But if I am being honest, I can see how it could build character, the same way I can see how dropping points and repeatedly falling over hurdles kills any character that was suppose to have been built!!

I really don't get why we as fans would prefer not to analyse our team and coach but instead stay firmly fixated on another teams record, lionising every effing thing about them ...its just too pathetic.

It wasn't Citeh who knocked us out of The Europa league, they didn't knock us out of the League cup...they are not responsible for the fact that he has only reached one final in 4 years .....and TBH, even if they end up beating us this month, that loss will not be the loss that meant we could not win the title this year ( we dropped 4 points in 7 days while being 2 nil up, who effing does that while chasing a title!!)...lets actually look at what we can control and scream about our weaknesses until they are adequately addressed....thats if some of us want to move forward or want to keep on bitching for another 20 years.


Or we can get real and accept that we are armchair critics and our opinions don’t matter for shit

The fact of the matter is everyone was playing fine yesterday until they weren’t. And the point is if you have the brittle mentality in the squad it doesn’t necessarily matter who you bring on given we are dealing with human beings and not a vast collection of data on football manager.

I think Arteta has been poor with his substitutions and doesn’t rotate enough but that’s my opinion that happens to be widely shared, it’s not conclusive fact anymore than it’s conclusive fact that the substitutions would have made the impact in a game where it just looked like everyone was rabbits in the headlights and suffering from Anfield PTSD.

Also IBK has also said that he felt that Arteta made substitutions like Nelson too late in the day so it’s almost like you can keep more than one thought in your head.

So kindly knock off this “you either agree with me or you lack ambition as a fan” bollocks you like to go to town with.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Or we can get real and accept that we are armchair critics and our opinions don’t matter for shit

The fact of the matter is everyone was playing fine yesterday until they weren’t. And the point is if you have the brittle mentality in the squad it doesn’t necessarily matter who you bring on given we are dealing with human beings and not a vast collection of data on football manager.

I think Arteta has been poor with his substitutions and doesn’t rotate enough but that’s my opinion that happens to be widely shared, it’s not conclusive fact anymore than it’s conclusive fact that the substitutions would have made the impact in a game where it just looked like everyone was rabbits in the headlights and suffering from Anfield PTSD.

Also IBK has also said that he felt that Arteta made substitutions like Nelson too late in the day so it’s almost like you can keep more than one thought in your head.

So kindly knock off this “you either agree with me or you lack ambition as a fan” bollocks you like to go to town with.

Oh STFU if you can't come up with a proper reply you bullshitter.

You've always believed we couldn't win the league even when everyone else was saying we had a great chance to because you've always been one of those feckless cowardly fans who's opinions I can't really rate.

You rightly got it, that you are the kind of fan I can't stand, so I'm shocked you'd reply to me when I wasn't replying to your usual pessimistic holier than thou bullshit.

Everyone wasn't playing well when we ran up to 2 nil, Saka, who I (and Mandela) pointed out in the last game for having a mare, continued being poor and strangely subdued and I see no reason why Trossard shouldn't have started over him. Partey was strangely poor (but I wouldn't have dropped him, instead I would have maybe given him some help because an argument could be made that he missed Zin). I am sure others would point out those who were poor if you would give them the chance

Unlike you, who is too cowardly to stick to an opinion, I stated on the match thread at half time that we were slowly imploding again...I'm not always right, but caring about something should mean you should give your honest opinion whether you get egg on your face or not.

You've turned yourself into some sort of Rottweiler on this board jumping at posters because you think you know them... dude STFU and debate...if you can't do the latter, just STFU.

[Letters]

Guys, come on. This place is barely moderated these days but let's not get personal.
Keep it civil.

[mandela8]

Saka doesn't need "rested" he needs dropped. The boy is a disgrace. His effort is utterly abject. His attitude stinks and why shouldn't it? The point I've been making for months is that this immunity from scrutiny that everyone affords him doesn't do him any good. In fact, it's detrimental to his development. He now struts around like someone who has made it when he has achieved fuck all. But when he's never criticized or dropped why the fuck shouldn't he? Where's his motivation? You all robbed him off it with your fanboyism.

People now seeing he is a liability and dressing it up as "he needs a rest" is fucking embarrassing. He's a wee primadonna of your own making.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Saka doesn't need "rested" he needs dropped. The boy is a disgrace. His effort is utterly abject. His attitude stinks and why shouldn't it? The point I've been making for months is that this immunity from scrutiny that everyone affords him doesn't do him any good. In fact, it's detrimental to his development. He now struts around like someone who has made it when he has achieved fuck all. But when he's never criticized or dropped why the fuck shouldn't he? Where's his motivation? You all robbed him off it with your fanboyism.

People now seeing he is a liability and dressing it up as "he needs a rest" is fucking embarrassing. He's a wee primadonna of your own making.


No he hasn’t been free from scrutiny, but there’s a world of difference between scrutiny and “Och man I’m Scottish, Saka’s shite and yous are too busy kissing his arse cos he’s anglish” bollocks you bring with you.

Saka has been shit the last couple of games but only a moron or a troll would claim he’s a liability…and with you either explanation is possible.

Just take the Rab C Nesbit LARPING elsewhere. Or maybe you’re Brian Cox, he’s a big fan of saying what Scotland should or shouldn’t do whilst living in America.

Twat

[mandela8]

Yesterday also proved Tierney is done at arsenal.
It's not his fault and it's nothing even to do with him.
It's not a player debate, it's a style debate. The left back inverts. That's simply the way we play now. Tierney's strengths are up and down the line, not central. He has no place in this team. Real shame and whoever buys him, for a cut price no doubt, will have one of Europes best left backs for the next 7/8 years and probably their captain to boot.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh STFU if you can't come up with a proper reply you bullshitter.

You've always believed we couldn't win the league even when everyone else was saying we had a great chance to because you've always been one of those feckless cowardly fans who's opinions I can't really rate.

You rightly got it, that you are the kind of fan I can't stand, so I'm shocked you'd reply to me when I wasn't replying to your usual pessimistic holier than thou bullshit.

Everyone wasn't playing well when we ran up to 2 nil, Saka, who I (and Mandela) pointed out in the last game for having a mare, continued being poor and strangely subdued and I see no reason why Trossard shouldn't have started over him. Partey was strangely poor (but I wouldn't have dropped him, instead I would have maybe given him some help because an argument could be made that he missed Zin). I am sure others would point out those who were poor if you would give them the chance

Unlike you, who is too cowardly to stick to an opinion, I stated on the match thread at half time that we were slowly imploding again...I'm not always right, but caring about something should mean you should give your honest opinion whether you get egg on your face or not.

You've turned yourself into some sort of Rottweiler on this board jumping at posters because you think you know them... dude STFU and debate...if you can't do the latter, just STFU.

Oh shut up you girl…you’re telling me not to tell posters what they think and you’re doing exactly the same with me

You can’t even be bothered to read things properly, which was half your problem before hand when you felt you could try and win a debate with me…you started arguing against what you thought I’d said rather than what I’d said

You clearly also don’t understand the difference between ambition and expectation. Saying I didn’t think we would win the league is not a lack of ambition, nor is bemoaning the fact that we didn’t go berserk like Chelsea in the transfer market. Would you like me to bring up all the posts you made about them being more ambitious than us…compared to the fucking mess they are in now?

That would be my point when I say fans can express an opinion…but when it comes to people like you that opinion is usually borne out of thinking you know what you’re talking about because you won the league with Leyton Orient on football manager without cheating.

You’re not debating you half read what IBK said just as you half read my post, which is fitting for a half wit. So you can debate if you like but try not run before you can walk and maybe learn to read first

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Saka doesn't need "rested" he needs dropped. The boy is a disgrace. His effort is utterly abject. His attitude stinks and why shouldn't it? The point I've been making for months is that this immunity from scrutiny that everyone affords him doesn't do him any good. In fact, it's detrimental to his development. He now struts around like someone who has made it when he has achieved fuck all. But when he's never criticized or dropped why the fuck shouldn't he? Where's his motivation? You all robbed him off it with your fanboyism.

People now seeing he is a liability and dressing it up as "he needs a rest" is fucking embarrassing. He's a wee primadonna of your own making.

Being dropped from the team is taking it way too far but I do see that some of the criticism is justified and correct. Pretending like his contribution isn't poor right now would be doing the lad a disservice..

[HCZ_Reborn]

Guys, come on. This place is barely moderated these days but let's not get personal.
Keep it civil.

https://reddwarfquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/give-quiche-a-chance.jpg

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Oh shut up you girl…you’re telling me not to tell posters what they think and you’re doing exactly the same with me

You can’t even be bothered to read things properly, which was half your problem before hand when you felt you could try and win a debate with me…you started arguing against what you thought I’d said rather than what I’d said

You clearly also don’t understand the difference between ambition and expectation. Saying I didn’t think we would win the league is not a lack of ambition, nor is bemoaning the fact that we didn’t go berserk like Chelsea in the transfer market. Would you like me to bring up all the posts you made about them being more ambitious than us…compared to the fucking mess they are in now?

That would be my point when I say fans can express an opinion…but when it comes to people like you that opinion is usually borne out of thinking you know what you’re talking about because you won the league with Leyton Orient on football manager without cheating.

You’re not debating you half read what IBK said just as you half read my post, which is fitting for a half wit. So you can debate if you like but try not run before you can walk and maybe learn to read first

Look you keyboard warrior, did you notice how I disagreed with Mandela without having to call him a racist and a bigot like you would?

Clearly you have a lot of growing up to do and me trying to debate you would be a waste of time (especially since I'm being paid to work right now)... but can we agree on something you lil shit, you stay off my mention and I'll let you win the internet.

Idiot.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Look you keyboard warrior, did you notice how I disagreed with Mandela without having to call him a racist and a bigot like you would?

Clearly you have a lot of growing up to do and me trying to debate you would be a waste of time (especially since I'm being paid to work right now)... but can we agree on something you lil shit, you stay off my mention and I'll let you win the internet.

Idiot.


Mandela isn’t worth debating with. I tried that a year ago and it was abundantly clear the guy is a troll, that you’re able to talk with moderation to him is not really something to brag about

You seem to be becoming very hostile. If you’re going to say silly things, don’t be surprised when someone doesn’t give you the proverbial hand job when pointing it out. I pointed out quite fairly your tendency to make statements that had you taken the time to actually read what was written you probably wouldn’t make (or maybe you would…maybe you are actually stupid and it’s not about you needing to actually read what was written it’s maybe your general failure to comprehend)

If you can’t take what’s being dished out it’s maybe a sign that you need to consider what’s more important to you, beating a straw man or actually debating an opponent.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Mandela isn’t worth debating with. I tried that a year ago and it was abundantly clear the guy is a troll, that you’re able to talk with moderation to him is not really something to brag about

You seem to be becoming very hostile. If you’re going to say silly things, don’t be surprised when someone doesn’t give you the proverbial hand job when pointing it out. I pointed out quite fairly your tendency to make statements that had you taken the time to actually read what was written you probably wouldn’t make (or maybe you would…maybe you are actually stupid and it’s not about you needing to actually read what was written it’s maybe your general failure to comprehend)

If you can’t take what’s being dished out it’s maybe a sign that you need to consider what’s more important to you, beating a straw man or actually debating an opponent.

Kid, I came to debate football and not to entertain a manchild trying to get popular by being some sort of public defender.

Would you let the person I replied to reply or just give it a rest.

I am not your daddy, you don't really need this much attention from me, or do you?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Kid, I came to debate football and not to entertain a manchild trying to get popular by being some sort of public defender.

Would you let the person I replied to reply or just give it a rest.

I am not your daddy, you don't really need this much attention from me, or do you?

As I’ve said you’ll get no warm fuzzies from me. You absolutely cannot refute my argument that you reply to people without even actually reading what they’ve said (in fairness you absolutely do so you wouldn’t be able to). So you can continue providing me with fuel to antagonise you further or you can do what you said you were going to do and go back to work.

Me? I’m working too but I’m more than happy to be entertained by you running blindly into things like an angry Mr Magoo

[Letters]

OK...I did ask nicely. I'm going to start editing/deleting posts next. Come on, guys.

[HCZ_Reborn]

OK...I did ask nicely. I'm going to start editing/deleting posts next. Come on, guys.

I know as a mod you’ve got to keep a veneer of responsibility, but deep down wouldn’t you rather have unpleasant ad hominem exchanges as opposed to the sedateness that is this forum 90% of the time.

As for this silly fellow who can’t help but reply to me (whatever I say about Mandela at least he has some self restraint in that regard)
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I sincerely hope you’re not anyone’s Daddy, or indeed if you are that the child has been placed in protective custody away from you.

There was a local story near me some time ago about children being taken away from their parents because the parents lacked the required intellectual capacity…I’m now wondering if that was you.

As I’ve said you’ll get no warm fuzzies from me. You absolutely cannot refute my argument that you reply to people without even actually reading what they’ve said (in fairness you absolutely do so you wouldn’t be able to). So you can continue providing me with fuel to antagonise you further or you can do what you said you were going to do and go back to work.

Me? I’m working too but I’m more than happy to be entertained by you running blindly into things like an angry Mr Magoo

:haha: It must really hurt being you, all this crap just to feel whole.....damn!

Guys, we might be getting another ILT very soon :ilt:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

OK...I did ask nicely. I'm going to start editing/deleting posts next. Come on, guys.

Letters, I think you should let the kid have his day, he clearly needs it :ilt:

[HCZ_Reborn]

:haha: It must really hurt being you, all this crap just to feel whole.....damn!

Guys, we might be getting another ILT very soon :ilt:

You’re still going :haha:

I won’t lie, you’re making a dull working day all the much brighter

I was going to be nice and offer you the chance to re-read some of the posts you reply to and actually answer with what’s said rather than what you think has been said but this is way more fun

Has it been a bad day for you….do you have Arsenal stuff on your desk and one of your work colleagues has been singing “two nil and you fucked it up” in your ear all morning?

Anyway I’ve got some sod pestering me on Teams so will have to leave it there. Cheer up buttercup, and try not to beat up your imaginary girlfriend when you get in tonight

[mandela8]

Being dropped from the team is taking it way too far but I do see that some of the criticism is justified and correct. Pretending like his contribution isn't poor right now would be doing the lad a disservice..

Aye, I meant dropped from the starting line up, not the squad. Starting Trossard with Saka on the bench, just as a reminder that he's not untouchable...which he is and he knows it.
It's a shame as my frustration is more with the situation but it manifests with criticism of the player which isn't entirely fair, I guess. It's just poor man management but I do think the fans and media are culpable in this too.
I don't even mind poor players, man. I've said before, Holding is probably my favorite player at the club and it ain't because he's good :haha: he's just a real all in, loves the club kinda guy who you never hear a bad word about.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

You’re still going :haha:

I won’t lie, you’re making a dull working day all the much brighter

I was going to be nice and offer you the chance to re-read some of the posts you reply to and actually answer with what’s said rather than what you think has been said but this is way more fun

Has it been a bad day for you….do you have Arsenal stuff on your desk and one of your work colleagues has been singing “two nil and you fucked it up” in your ear all morning?

Anyway I’ve got some sod pestering me on Teams so will have to leave it there. Cheer up buttercup, and try not to beat up your imaginary girlfriend when you get in tonight

Ok, just remember, Jesus loves you :ilt:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ok, just remember, Jesus loves you :ilt:

As long as he doesn’t want me to suck his tongue like the Dalai Lama

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Aye, I meant dropped from the starting line up, not the squad. Starting Trossard with Saka on the bench, just as a reminder that he's not untouchable...which he is and he knows it.
It's a shame as my frustration is more with the situation but it manifests with criticism of the player which isn't entirely fair, I guess. It's just poor man management but I do think the fans and media are culpable in this too.
I don't even mind poor players, man. I've said before, Holding is probably my favorite player at the club and it ain't because he's good :haha: he's just a real all in, loves the club kinda guy who you never hear a bad word about.

Lol, if not for your Saka issues, would say we like the same players .....but yeah agree pretty much with what you said.

Just beats my imagination why Arteta can't see the boy is better off on the bench for now.. IMO Trossard is an easy key in for now and shouldn't really be dropped the way he is playing. Contribution wise the way I rate our attackers for now are:

Martinelli
Trossard
Jesus
Saka
Odegaard
Nelson
Xhaka
Vieira

at a point I even considered that if he still wanted Saka on the pitch, couldn't he had taken off Odegaard and put Trosaard their? Just do something radical to get our tempo up (that was at 2-1, not when chicken had come home to roost)

We had options yesterday it was just a total lack of imagination from Arteta and that's because he's fixated on a starting 11 when he's got a pretty good attacking squad now.

[IBK]

Excuses, excuses, excuses.... throwing 2-0 leads twice in a row in 7 days to sides struggling (and fatigued) isn't the Managers fault or down to his decisions, but when we were beating teams black and blue it was all about his greatness and how he sets up his team.

Come on give me a break.

For ages their has been a consensus on here that if theirs a weak or naive part of the Rookies game, its the way he uses his bench and subs; we are either complaining that he is running players into the ground (Saka), or ignoring his favourites messing up and being ineffectual (Xhaka, Zin etc.)...saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a bloody cop out! Pep and Klopp have always shocked us with subs before the half hour limit once they see something isn't quite right...our more experienced former manager who is doing a great job at Villa use to do the same thing too... always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me. But if I am being honest, I can see how it could build character, the same way I can see how dropping points and repeatedly falling over hurdles kills any character that was suppose to have been built!!

I really don't get why we as fans would prefer not to analyse our team and coach but instead stay firmly fixated on another teams record, lionising every effing thing about them ...its just too pathetic.

It wasn't Citeh who knocked us out of The Europa league, they didn't knock us out of the League cup...they are not responsible for the fact that he has only reached one final in 4 years .....and TBH, even if they end up beating us this month, that loss will not be the loss that meant we could not win the title this year ( we dropped 4 points in 7 days while being 2 nil up, who effing does that while chasing a title!!)...lets actually look at what we can control and scream about our weaknesses until they are adequately addressed....thats if some of us want to move forward or want to keep on bitching for another 20 years.

A curious post. I wasn't making excuses for anything. I believe we bottled it, and I criticised the brittleness of the team in the past 2 matches. Hardly lionising another team or being fanboyish.

This is the problem with debate these days. Offer an alternative view and people respond with binary overstatements. I get that you don't rate our manager, but that doesn't mean either that your view is gospel or even supported by the evidence. It certainly doesnt mean that I am a blinkered Arteta fanboy. As HCZ pinted out, the narture of being football fans means that there is never a time when people don't think that something should have been done differently. It isn't unreasonable to take the view that differnt, or earlier subs would have changed the game yesterday, but it's equally valid to look at a team-wide lack of composure meant that we lost our game under pressure - which is what I think we did and believe that we will continue to do for the rest of the season.

You say that saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a cop out, but Trossard and Jorginho were brought on on 67 mins yesterday and but for a brief period when we settled it didn't really stop the rot. Also, its a bit strange to argue that the problem was a lack of subs but totally ignore the fact that 3 of our best players were unavailable to the manager through injury. This is confirmation bias supporting your anti Arteta stance.

The fact that Arteta has been rightly praised for our good performances that still see us 4 points above Citeh does not mean that he is without his flaws (and by your own argument you cannot fixate on any sub-par performances by our traditional rivals to explain why we have topped the league for so long this season). But the same league position demonstrates that wanting to ditch our manager is objectively rather absurd - and suggesting that it's somehow defeatist to take this view doesn't make amuch sense. Your praise of Emery who despite his experience could not secure a Europa Cup or a top 4 finish for Arsenal speaks for itself, I'm afraid.

If we were going backwards under Arteta then your arguments would hold more merit, but we are not, and I cannot see on any analysis why we would want to do so now, or what 'magical' alternative would guarantee us success. This doesn't mean that I am content with our past 2 perfomances - I am gutted by them - but not wanting to ditch the whole project does not make me immature or less of an Arsenal fan.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Precisely that, it’s entirely possible to hold two thoughts in your head at once. Because ultimately there’s never one explanation for things, it’s usually a myriad of factors.

- It is an opinion that Arteta over uses certain players and does not rotate his squad enough. It’s an opinion that I hold to, but I can’t claim it to be fact. Yesterday? It’s possible that more timely and better made substitutions might have changed the result, it’s also just as possible that it wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference

- The point getting deliberately ignored is that it has been identified that there is something brittle about this side of late. Yesterday felt like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Despite the claims of 21 Brain cells firing, we were all worried about what was happening with the team from 2-1 onwards….because it felt like the same thing was happening again and that speaks as much if not more about too fragile confidence as it does underperforming personnel.

- I wouldn’t mind but I’ve been one of Arteta’s biggest detractors…I’ve made it clear I don’t like the guy. But at the same time it would be folly to replace him, and there’s no shame on my part to admit he’s done far better this season than I thought him capable of. But again we come back to the two thoughts thing, you can think we’ve in many ways over achieved and think we’ve bottled it in the last couple of games….the two are not mutually exclusive.

[mandela8]

Lol, if not for your Saka issues, would say we like the same players .....but yeah agree pretty much with what you said.

Just beats my imagination why Arteta can't see the boy is better off on the bench for now.. IMO Trossard is an easy key in for now and shouldn't really be dropped the way he is playing. Contribution wise the way I rate our attackers for now are:

Martinelli
Trossard
Jesus
Saka
Odegaard
Nelson
Xhaka
Vieira

at a point I even considered that if he still wanted Saka on the pitch, couldn't he had taken off Odegaard and put Trosaard their? Just do something radical to get our tempo up (that was at 2-1, not when chicken had come home to roost)

We had options yesterday it was just a total lack of imagination from Arteta and that's because he's fixated on a starting 11 when he's got a pretty good attacking squad now.

I'd love to see a mid/att of

Partey
Odegaard Viera

Trossard Jesus Martinelli

Not just for 1 game either.

Not that I've been impressed with anything Viera has done but he needs a run of starts with the first team to even make a fair assessment, for me.

Also, is Jorginho just a back up for Partey? No option of Jorginho replacing Xhaka? Might be a bit of step backwards in terms of offensive play, as Xhaka gets ahead of the ball sometimes nowadays and I'm not sure Jorginho can do that.

We just need to switch summin up but Arteta is a hostage to his own rigidity.

[Letters]

deep down wouldn’t you rather have unpleasant ad hominem exchanges as opposed to the sedateness that is this forum 90% of the time.
I don't think those are the only two options :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't think those are the only two options :lol:

Come off it man, on a day like today with work dragging there’s nothing like getting out the proverbial popcorn and watching two complete strangers make the most visceral personal remarks at each other. No harm is done because they don’t know each other to take it personally to begin with.

Is it conducive to good football debate? Absolutely not

But I think we were well past that point. If I think people are being silly I will just goad them more. And I’m not saying that as someone who has never come out with silly things on here, it’s prerogative of a football fan…I consider it the last acceptable bastion of true irrational sectarianism

I don’t know whether that guy was truly offended by me or not (much less care) part of me hopes he will start to hold a personal grudge against me…that always makes things interesting.

The point being that disagreements that get twisted out of any reasonable proportion is the lifeblood of this site. Mac76 was I fear becoming quite angrily obsessed with my player ratings at one point (though doubt he’s thinking that now)

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

A curious post. I wasn't making excuses for anything. I believe we bottled it, and I criticised the brittleness of the team in the past 2 matches. Hardly lionising another team or being fanboyish.

This is the problem with debate these days. Offer an alternative view and people respond with binary overstatements. I get that you don't rate our manager, but that doesn't mean either that your view is gospel or even supported by the evidence. It certainly doesnt mean that I am a blinkered Arteta fanboy. As HCZ pinted out, the narture of being football fans means that there is never a time when people don't think that something should have been done differently. It isn't unreasonable to take the view that differnt, or earlier subs would have changed the game yesterday, but it's equally valid to look at a team-wide lack of composure meant that we lost our game under pressure - which is what I think we did and believe that we will continue to do for the rest of the season.

You say that saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a cop out, but Trossard and Jorginho were brought on on 67 mins yesterday and but for a brief period when we settled it didn't really stop the rot. Also, its a bit strange to argue that the problem was a lack of subs but totally ignore the fact that 3 of our best players were unavailable to the manager through injury. This is confirmation bias supporting your anti Arteta stance.

The fact that Arteta has been rightly praised for our good performances that still see us 4 points above Citeh does not mean that he is without his flaws (and by your own argument you cannot fixate on any sub-par performances by our traditional rivals to explain why we have topped the league for so long this season). But the same league position demonstrates that wanting to ditch our manager is objectively rather absurd - and suggesting that it's somehow defeatist to take this view doesn't make amuch sense. Your praise of Emery who despite his experience could not secure a Europa Cup or a top 4 finish for Arsenal speaks for itself, I'm afraid.

If we were going backwards under Arteta then your arguments would hold more merit, but we are not, and I cannot see on any analysis why we would want to do so now, or what 'magical' alternative would guarantee us success. This doesn't mean that I am content with our past 2 perfomances - I am gutted by them - but not wanting to ditch the whole project does not make me immature or less of an Arsenal fan.


Maybe we need to put a reply to all button, because though I was replying to your post, there were several people who shared similar sentiments that I was addressing in my reply ( which I don't think was personal anyway).

Why I picked you in particular to respond to was that in your initial reply you stated clearly that my post suggesting that we had cooled talks for an extension to Mikel's contract was "astonishing" and "crazy", seeing that he is doing a great job. Obviously, as shown in this post you have firmly deduced I want the manger out...but we'll come to this later.

In your initial reply, though you agreed the team bottled it you seemed to absolve the manager of blame, saying subs were 'inconsequential" and saying things like "Arteta was not responsible for Partey having a bad day in the office" suggested to me that you are shifting the "blame" to the players and not their leader the manager, who had set them up properly and given them all they needed to win as evidenced by the 2 nil leads in both matches.

This was obviously my disagreement as both you and me have been here long enough to remember arguments in the AW days of how the "players" were letting AW down", "AW is a proven winner and its the players who don't have the winning mentality" bla bla bla. The point is trying to excise the players performance from that of the manager is a totally unhelpful exercise that has cost us 19 years in the wilderness. That is my opinion and most things I will say are my opinion unless I explicitly say so.

The breathtaking football that got us 2-0 nil ahead in 10 mins was down to Arteta and the team, the shameful retreat that got us back to 2-2 was also down to Arteta and the team.. not sure my reply said anything else.

Now back to me saying we ditch Arteta, kindly point out where I said so IBK? The post you referred to does not indicate we are ditching him (unless you did not read the post nor the story), it says we are not rewarding him with a contract extension till we see how the season goes. Please what is wrong with that? If you remember correctly, AWs last contract extension was signed by these same owners after an FA cup win with a majority of the fans still against it but they said

“Our ambition is to win the Premier League and other major trophies in Europe. It’s what the fans, players, staff, manager and board expect and we won’t rest until that is achieved. Arsène is the best person to help us make that happen. He has a fantastic track record and has our full backing.”

Look how that went.

So I ask again, how were the sentiments I expressed "astonishing" or "crazy" and where do I try and fanshame you in the rest of my post?

BTW, I do not blame you because theirs a self hating coward lurking in the shadows trying to brew something up to make himself some sort of internet hero.

Those who have followed our debates and his petty vendettas know the same hypocrite was the one who demanded Arteta be sacked earlier this year and unfortunately I responded to him asking him to calm down, then he went all ballistic. A poor weak minded creature pretending to be some sort of He-Man.

Anyway:

I still believe we can win the title.

I still believe we should win the title.

But Arteta needs to get his act together and work on his weaknesses and the teams.

Coming 2nd ( or 3rd ) and wining 1 trophy with only 1 final in 4 years is not enough progress for me.

I will say it a thousand times even if all fans don't feel the same way.

Simple.

[Mac76]

Excuses, excuses, excuses.... throwing 2-0 leads twice in a row in 7 days to sides struggling (and fatigued) isn't the Managers fault or down to his decisions, but when we were beating teams black and blue it was all about his greatness and how he sets up his team.

Come on give me a break.

For ages their has been a consensus on here that if theirs a weak or naive part of the Rookies game, its the way he uses his bench and subs; we are either complaining that he is running players into the ground (Saka), or ignoring his favourites messing up and being ineffectual (Xhaka, Zin etc.)...saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a bloody cop out! Pep and Klopp have always shocked us with subs before the half hour limit once they see something isn't quite right...our more experienced former manager who is doing a great job at Villa use to do the same thing too... always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me. But if I am being honest, I can see how it could build character, the same way I can see how dropping points and repeatedly falling over hurdles kills any character that was suppose to have been built!!

I really don't get why we as fans would prefer not to analyse our team and coach but instead stay firmly fixated on another teams record, lionising every effing thing about them ...its just too pathetic.

It wasn't Citeh who knocked us out of The Europa league, they didn't knock us out of the League cup...they are not responsible for the fact that he has only reached one final in 4 years .....and TBH, even if they end up beating us this month, that loss will not be the loss that meant we could not win the title this year ( we dropped 4 points in 7 days while being 2 nil up, who effing does that while chasing a title!!)...lets actually look at what we can control and scream about our weaknesses until they are adequately addressed....thats if some of us want to move forward or want to keep on bitching for another 20 years.

:gp: (I think)

the last line confuses me but i think you're saying there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism or pointing out the manager isn't perfect, yes?

[Mac76]

Yesterday also proved Tierney is done at arsenal.
It's not his fault and it's nothing even to do with him.
It's not a player debate, it's a style debate. The left back inverts. That's simply the way we play now. Tierney's strengths are up and down the line, not central. He has no place in this team. Real shame and whoever buys him, for a cut price no doubt, will have one of Europes best left backs for the next 7/8 years and probably their captain to boot.

This

it will make me physically sick when we sell him in the summer., as i said somewhere above, by selling Tierney Arteta will be locking us into the one way of playing, which is a REALLY bad move in itself even if we weren't losing such a good player

[HCZ_Reborn]

Maybe we need to put a reply to all button, because though I was replying to your post, there were several people who shared similar sentiments that I was addressing in my reply ( which I don't think was personal anyway).

Why I picked you in particular to respond to was that in your initial reply you stated clearly that my post suggesting that we had cooled talks for an extension to Mikel's contract was "astonishing" and "crazy", seeing that he is doing a great job. Obviously, as shown in this post you have firmly deduced I want the manger out...but we'll come to this later.

In your initial reply, though you agreed the team bottled it you seemed to absolve the manager of blame, saying subs were 'inconsequential" and saying things like "Arteta was not responsible for Partey having a bad day in the office" suggested to me that you are shifting the "blame" to the players and not their leader the manager, who had set them up properly and given them all they needed to win as evidenced by the 2 nil leads in both matches.

This was obviously my disagreement as both you and me have been here long enough to remember arguements in the AW days of how the "players" were letting AW down", "AW is a proven winner and its the players who don't have the winning mentality" and bla bla bla. The point is trying to excise the players performance from that of the manager is a totally unhelpful exercise that has cost us 19 years in the wilderness. That is my opinion and most things I will say are my opinion unless I explicitly say so.

The breathtaking football that got us 2-0 nil ahead in 10 mins was down to Arteta and the team, the shameful retreat that got us back to 2-2 was also down to Arteta and the team.. not sure my reply said anything else.

Now back to me saying we ditch Arteta, kindly point out where I said so IBK? The post you referred to does not indicate we are ditching him (unless you did not read the post nor the story), it says we are not rewarding him with a contract extension till we see how the season goes. Please what is wrong with that? If you remember correctly, AWs last contract extension was signed by these same owners after an FA cup win with a majority of the fans still against it but they said


So I ask again, how were the sentiments I expressed "astonishing" or "crazy" and where do I try and fanshame you in the rest of my post?

BTW, I do not blame you because theirs a self hating coward lurking in the shadows trying to brew something up to make himself some sort of internet hero.

Those who have followed our debates and his petty vendettas know the same hypocrite was the one who demanded Arteta be sacked earlier this year and unfortunately I responded to him asking him to calm down, then he went all ballistic. A poor weak minded creature pretending to be some sort of He-Man.

Anyway:

I still believe we can win the title.

I still believe we should win the title.

But Arteta needs to get his act together and work on his weaknesses and the teams.

Coming 2nd or 3rd or and wining 1 trophy with only 1 final in 4 years is not enough progress for me.

I will say it a thousand times even if all fans don't feel the same way.

Simple.


At the risk of actually responding to your point (because staring at a laptop screen has proved to be too much to be bothered with)

My opinion is that the title is done with, i factored it that we could drop points in three fixtures and win the thing and West Ham was not one of them. I hope I’m wrong, it could be like 89 all over again where we lost to Derby and drew with Wimbledon before going to Anfield but I just think dropping a two goal lead twice in a row suggests that we are choking

Your Argument being that it’s not enough that Arteta has won only the single fa cup in four years is not the contentious part of your argument, it’s when you state that people lack ambition when they don’t see things completely the way you do. We clearly kept Wenger too long and we don’t want to make the same mistake with Arteta, even if by some miracle we finish 2nd in the next three seasons…it’s not unreasonable to suggest that maybe we need someone who can take us that extra step.

It’s similarly not irrational to believe that Arteta is not capable of pushing us on, but I think my opinion is that he’s proved me wrong enough (despite what we agree are clearly still black marks against him) that he probably deserves a little more time given there is no one out there on the horizon who clearly suggests to me that they would definitely improve upon Arteta.

And yes I’ll take you at your word, and I certainly haven’t seen anything you’ve posted which suggests we should dump Arteta…you’ve been more preoccupied with his use of substitutions. And whilst I think that by itself might be too simplistic an explanation (I can’t remember if it was here or somewhere else, where I suggested that Arteta shouting at Partey to calm down and keep his chin up seemed to have the opposite effect) it certainly does warrant scrutiny.

Whilst I was just being a horrendous WUM, I also do take exception to this idea that people aren’t as ambitious as fans as you…the idea that any fan isn’t interested in seeing us win titles is nonsense. Most of us (in fact I assume all of us) were old enough to be drinking in pubs the last time we won the title…it’s an experience all of us would give anything to repeat. But we are going to differ as to the best way for that to be achieved

[HCZ_Reborn]

:gp: (I think)

the last line confuses me but i think you're saying there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism or pointing out the manager isn't perfect, yes?

It’s a bit of a straw man though because no one has said he’s above criticism

I can’t stand the dude, yet I kind of feel like it’s being made out that I’m a “trust the process” half wit

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Though I agree with both of you that Tierney's game doesn't suit Areta's system...is it a unfathomable that we have a plan B, could we really not work more on having an effective plan B instead of beating down plan A to death??

I was really hoping that the Rookie would see this and consider it, but he probably needs to get to and lose a few more finals before that breakthrough dawns on him.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This

it will make me physically sick when we sell him in the summer., as i said somewhere above, by selling Tierney Arteta will be locking us into the one way of playing, which is a REALLY bad move in itself even if we weren't losing such a good player

I don’t really give a fuck about Tierney one way or the other, hasn’t come close to his best for us for years

I just don’t like Zinchenko…I think this whole inverted left back thing is nonsense and we wouldn’t even need it if we had someone alongside Partey who would stop dawdling all over the pitch

If we had a proper left back to replace him, wouldn’t give a shit if we sold him or not

[Mac76]

I still believe we can win the title.

I'm sorry it's pretty much gone and AFAIC it was like that after the Liverpool game




I still believe we should win the title.


I don't know about 'should' if we've not been good enough - I'd love to break the big money hold on the PL title but it's not happening IMO




But Arteta needs to get his act together and work on his weaknesses and the teams.


He won't - maybe it's a bit of a curse that we have done so well this season and there's so much at stake, as he's now frozen and doesn't trust squad players or even his own ability to change a game, instead of just relying on his original team selection until it's too late




Coming 2nd or 3rd or and wining 1 trophy with only 1 final in 4 years is not enough progress for me.


Got to say I'd have been happy with top four and finishing above Spuds, to have been challenging like this has been a real bonus, albeit it's now really frustrating to see how we've thrown it away

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

:gp: (I think)

the last line confuses me but i think you're saying there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism or pointing out the manager isn't perfect, yes?

Yup, IMW constructive criticism only strengthens this team, instead of spending day and night lamenting on how we can't compete with a team that only fields 11 players on the pitch, shock !

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I'm sorry it's pretty much gone and AFAIC it was like that after the Liverpool game



I don't know about 'should' if we've not been good enough - I'd love to break the big money hold on the PL title but it's not happening IMO



He won't - maybe it's a bit of a curse that we have done so well this season and there's so much at stake, as he's now frozen and doesn't trust squad players or even his own ability to change a game, instead of just relying on his original team selection until it's too late



Got to say I'd have been happy with top four and finishing above Spuds, to have been challenging like this has been a real bonus, albeit it's now really frustrating to see how we've thrown it away

Well I can't pretend, a top 4 finish was never and will never be my barometer of success.

Just hearing "top 4" gives me nightmares of the "top 4 trophy" and I don't evere want us to be a club that just participates in competitions that we don't believe we can win.

I hoped we'd win the league this season (think I stated it in season thread) and believed after the first 9 or so games that these group of boys could pull it off.

Its been an enjoyable season, but all of this will mean nothing to me if we don't win it.

That's just me, don't feel everyone else has to feel the same way.

Won't give up till its over, but with the way we are capitulating, its becoming more of hope now but I blame only us for this.

[Mac76]

I'll remember being at some great games, watching some great football and actually believing for a while, albeit with a voice in my head telling me no team which relies so heavily on a player like Xhaka is ever going to win the league :lol:

[LDG]

I think if you’d have told me we would be top with seven games to go, albeit toe to toe with City, I would have bitten your arm off and probably your legs.

I’m proud we are where we are, from where we’ve come from, and with a young squad too.

Champions League is not what we should be aiming for, but in terms of revenue, and attracting players, it’s essential for the club going forward.

Competing for the title is what we’ve all wanted all along, so we can’t say anything other than it’s been brilliant to waych even if it ends in disappointment.

Every game now should be 100% front foot using our stregnths until the game is beyond doubt, or we need to hang on.

Gutted as I am, it’s been an amazing season. One I didn’t expect at all. Lets just enjoy that for now and throw everything behind the boys and see if where we end up.

[Letters]

I think if you’d have told me we would be top with seven games to go, albeit toe to toe with City, I would have bitten your arm off and probably your legs.

I’m proud we are where we are, from where we’ve come from, and with a young squad too.

Champions League is not what we should be aiming for, but in terms of revenue, and attracting players, it’s essential for the club going forward.

Competing for the title is what we’ve all wanted all along, so we can’t say anything other than it’s been brilliant to waych even if it ends in disappointment.

Every game now should be 100% front foot using our stregnths until the game is beyond doubt, or we need to hang on.

Gutted as I am, it’s been an amazing season. One I didn’t expect at all. Lets just enjoy that for now and throw everything behind the boys and see if where we end up.

:gp:

That's exactly how I feel. If someone had said to me before the season that we'd not only be in the title race but still have the title in our hands with 7 games to go then I'd have laughed in their stupid face. Some other seasons there have been little signs of improvement but never consistently. This year the improvement has been palpable, I'm feeling a lot more confident about our ability to stand up in big games and win the routine ones. The slip at West Ham was very much the outlier in the context of this season.

So if City do mow us down, as seems increasingly likely, then I'll be simultaneously gutted and proud of our efforts this year. My worry is that this could be our best chance. We will surely strengthen in the summer but City aren't going away and other clubs are building or rebuilding.

[Mac76]

My worry is that this could be our best chance. We will surely strengthen in the summer but City aren't going away and other clubs are building or rebuilding.

I'm beginning to think this more and more - while our young players will get stronger and more experienced, I wonder how much more depth we can add in the summer, as I'm thinking we need quote a bit, much as I like Holding he's too much of a step down now.

This year the title challenge came out fof the blue and (most of us) got behind it, but next season I don't think exiting all the cups so early will be acceptable, especially the CL, so we need that greater depth

But also I do think Arteta has a LOT to learn about bhow to use his squad, in a number of ways, and if he doesn't work it out then I think we will carry on falling short.

[selassie]

I think if you’d have told me we would be top with seven games to go, albeit toe to toe with City, I would have bitten your arm off and probably your legs.

I’m proud we are where we are, from where we’ve come from, and with a young squad too.

Champions League is not what we should be aiming for, but in terms of revenue, and attracting players, it’s essential for the club going forward.

Competing for the title is what we’ve all wanted all along, so we can’t say anything other than it’s been brilliant to waych even if it ends in disappointment.

Every game now should be 100% front foot using our stregnths until the game is beyond doubt, or we need to hang on.

Gutted as I am, it’s been an amazing season. One I didn’t expect at all. Lets just enjoy that for now and throw everything behind the boys and see if where we end up.

My thoughts too. I just hope we build on this and really improve the squad so we are able to manage CL and put in a meaningful title challenge again next season.

Don't get me wrong winning is everything and I will be gutted if we don't win the League this season, but what is just as important if not more, is improving the squad and coming back stronger next season.

[Marc Overmars]

They will come again no doubt about it. Whatever happens over the next few weeks I think the experience of this season will only do them good. It’s not a very battled hardened group of players, with the exception of 2 or 3. Majority of the squad have their best years ahead of them and there’s no real reason to think they’re suddenly going to disappear from the conversation.

CL football and the pull that comes with it, we should be confident of further improvement. I see this as the start of our journey now. Of course if things fall to shit next season then we’ll act accordingly but I don’t fear this is a now or never moment like some do.

[selassie]

Maybe we need to put a reply to all button, because though I was replying to your post, there were several people who shared similar sentiments that I was addressing in my reply ( which I don't think was personal anyway).

Why I picked you in particular to respond to was that in your initial reply you stated clearly that my post suggesting that we had cooled talks for an extension to Mikel's contract was "astonishing" and "crazy", seeing that he is doing a great job. Obviously, as shown in this post you have firmly deduced I want the manger out...but we'll come to this later.

In your initial reply, though you agreed the team bottled it you seemed to absolve the manager of blame, saying subs were 'inconsequential" and saying things like "Arteta was not responsible for Partey having a bad day in the office" suggested to me that you are shifting the "blame" to the players and not their leader the manager, who had set them up properly and given them all they needed to win as evidenced by the 2 nil leads in both matches.

This was obviously my disagreement as both you and me have been here long enough to remember arguments in the AW days of how the "players" were letting AW down", "AW is a proven winner and its the players who don't have the winning mentality" bla bla bla. The point is trying to excise the players performance from that of the manager is a totally unhelpful exercise that has cost us 19 years in the wilderness. That is my opinion and most things I will say are my opinion unless I explicitly say so.

The breathtaking football that got us 2-0 nil ahead in 10 mins was down to Arteta and the team, the shameful retreat that got us back to 2-2 was also down to Arteta and the team.. not sure my reply said anything else.

Now back to me saying we ditch Arteta, kindly point out where I said so IBK? The post you referred to does not indicate we are ditching him (unless you did not read the post nor the story), it says we are not rewarding him with a contract extension till we see how the season goes. Please what is wrong with that? If you remember correctly, AWs last contract extension was signed by these same owners after an FA cup win with a majority of the fans still against it but they said


Look how that went.

So I ask again, how were the sentiments I expressed "astonishing" or "crazy" and where do I try and fanshame you in the rest of my post?

BTW, I do not blame you because theirs a self hating coward lurking in the shadows trying to brew something up to make himself some sort of internet hero.

Those who have followed our debates and his petty vendettas know the same hypocrite was the one who demanded Arteta be sacked earlier this year and unfortunately I responded to him asking him to calm down, then he went all ballistic. A poor weak minded creature pretending to be some sort of He-Man.

Anyway:

I still believe we can win the title.

I still believe we should win the title.

But Arteta needs to get his act together and work on his weaknesses and the teams.

Coming 2nd ( or 3rd ) and wining 1 trophy with only 1 final in 4 years is not enough progress for me.

I will say it a thousand times even if all fans don't feel the same way.

Simple.

We can win it sure, but we have to go to the Etihad and St James's Park without Saliba, that is a big issue in my book and makes both of these games extremely difficult. With a fully fit first XI I would be a lot more confident going to either place and getting a result of some sort.

Not only that, but the recent 2 goal slips have put massive doubts in me for the durability of this team, to an extent this came out of nowhere, but it has happened in consecutive games.

I personally think we will end up falling short.

[Letters]

I personally think we will end up falling short.
This seems the most likely outcome. But I don't think we should fail to recognise what we are up against. What City have done over the last 5 years isn't normal.

If we win on Friday then we will be a point behind where the Invincibles were at the same stage. There's a chance we could finish on more points than they did. By any normal standards that should be enough to win you the title. But what City have done over the last few years isn't normal. It's insane that Liverpool got 97 points one year and City still beat them to the title. The only time anyone stopped them was when Liverpool went absolutely mental and won 26 of their first 27 games, drawing the other. Dropping 2 points from a possible 81 is insane. The only season City won the title with fewer than 90 points was 2 years ago when they got 86, but no-one was really pushing them - Utd came 2nd with 74. They have been an absolute machine over the last 5 years, and this year they've got Haaland. None of this means we don't have room for improvement, but I don't think City mowing us down would be the abject failure that some* people are trying to paint it as (*mostly people not on here, tbf)

[selassie]

They will come again no doubt about it. Whatever happens over the next few weeks I think the experience of this season will only do them good. It’s not a very battled hardened group of players, with the exception of 2 or 3. Majority of the squad have their best years ahead of them and there’s no real reason to think they’re suddenly going to disappear from the conversation.

CL football and the pull that comes with it, we should be confident of further improvement. I see this as the start of our journey now. Of course if things fall to shit next season then we’ll act accordingly but I don’t fear this is a now or never moment like some do.

:gp:

Aye, I do think we have the quality to maintain this even with the current group of players which we will no doubt improve in the summer. Arteta has some faults and is still learning, but he is ambitious, very ambitious.

[selassie]

This seems the most likely outcome. But I don't think we should fail to recognise what we are up against. What City have done over the last 5 years isn't normal.

If we win on Friday then we will be a point behind where the Invincibles were at the same stage. There's a chance we could finish on more points than they did. By any normal standards that should be enough to win you the title. But what City have done over the last few years isn't normal. It's insane that Liverpool got 97 points one year and City still beat them to the title. The only time anyone stopped them was when Liverpool went absolutely mental and won 26 of their first 27 games, drawing the other. Dropping 2 points from a possible 81 is insane. The only season City won the title with fewer than 90 points was 2 years ago when they got 86, but no-one was really pushing them - Utd came 2nd with 74. They have been an absolute machine over the last 5 years, and this year they've got Haaland. None of this means we don't have room for improvement, but I don't think City mowing us down would be the abject failure that some* people are trying to paint it as (*mostly people not on here, tbf)

Yep, exactly this Letters.

We are up against a machine, and like you said if Man City were not in the conversation then we would have one hand on the trophy IMO. Our points total so far this season is ridiculous! The amount of games we have won, the consistency of the performances, the quality of the performances with a squad that in my opinion can definitely be improved on without spending oil club money.

We still have it all to play for, but whatever happens, it's been a really good season and pleasing for me especially as i did not see this coming.

[IBK]

Maybe we need to put a reply to all button, because though I was replying to your post, there were several people who shared similar sentiments that I was addressing in my reply ( which I don't think was personal anyway).

Why I picked you in particular to respond to was that in your initial reply you stated clearly that my post suggesting that we had cooled talks for an extension to Mikel's contract was "astonishing" and "crazy", seeing that he is doing a great job. Obviously, as shown in this post you have firmly deduced I want the manger out...but we'll come to this later.

In your initial reply, though you agreed the team bottled it you seemed to absolve the manager of blame, saying subs were 'inconsequential" and saying things like "Arteta was not responsible for Partey having a bad day in the office" suggested to me that you are shifting the "blame" to the players and not their leader the manager, who had set them up properly and given them all they needed to win as evidenced by the 2 nil leads in both matches.

This was obviously my disagreement as both you and me have been here long enough to remember arguments in the AW days of how the "players" were letting AW down", "AW is a proven winner and its the players who don't have the winning mentality" bla bla bla. The point is trying to excise the players performance from that of the manager is a totally unhelpful exercise that has cost us 19 years in the wilderness. That is my opinion and most things I will say are my opinion unless I explicitly say so.

The breathtaking football that got us 2-0 nil ahead in 10 mins was down to Arteta and the team, the shameful retreat that got us back to 2-2 was also down to Arteta and the team.. not sure my reply said anything else.

Now back to me saying we ditch Arteta, kindly point out where I said so IBK? The post you referred to does not indicate we are ditching him (unless you did not read the post nor the story), it says we are not rewarding him with a contract extension till we see how the season goes. Please what is wrong with that? If you remember correctly, AWs last contract extension was signed by these same owners after an FA cup win with a majority of the fans still against it but they said


Look how that went.

So I ask again, how were the sentiments I expressed "astonishing" or "crazy" and where do I try and fanshame you in the rest of my post?

BTW, I do not blame you because theirs a self hating coward lurking in the shadows trying to brew something up to make himself some sort of internet hero.

Those who have followed our debates and his petty vendettas know the same hypocrite was the one who demanded Arteta be sacked earlier this year and unfortunately I responded to him asking him to calm down, then he went all ballistic. A poor weak minded creature pretending to be some sort of He-Man.

Anyway:

I still believe we can win the title.

I still believe we should win the title.

But Arteta needs to get his act together and work on his weaknesses and the teams.

Coming 2nd ( or 3rd ) and wining 1 trophy with only 1 final in 4 years is not enough progress for me.

I will say it a thousand times even if all fans don't feel the same way.

Simple.

Fair enough if you didn't intend to suggest we should ditch our manager (and I too can be guilty of binary overstatement), but in fairness saying lamenting a culture of mediocrity and saying it was good news that PSG are interested in our manager kind of invited this.


I stand by the fact that if there are those who want shot of Arteta - this is IMO astonishing and crazy. I would give him a 2 year extension based on this season - but that is just my opinion based on the progress we have seen. It's not accepting of mediocrity - just an acknowledgment that we have made clear linear progress under him and he should be allowed to finish his project. I disagree with you that we have not seen enough progress under him.


As for your fanshame comment - you wrote saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a bloody cop out! Pep and Klopp have always shocked us with subs before the half hour limit once they see something isn't quite right...our more experienced former manager who is doing a great job at Villa use to do the same thing too... always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me.


I remain of the opinion that our fairly wretched performance after going 0-2 up against West Ham had little to do with subs. The subs we made were ineffective, and there is therefore nothing to suggest that this would have changed if the key one - bringing Trossard and Jorginho on - had been made earlier. It's a valid opinion.


And using your own observation, I have never suggested that Arteta is blameless for what happened at Liverpool or West Ham. What I suggested was that he is not to blame for injuries or senior players letting themselves down. This was IMO the most important reason for dropping points at West Ham (although I think that Arteta was more culpable at Anfied for negative subs there that handed the initiative to Liverpool).


FWIW I don't think we will win the league now. In the cold light of day however bar a complete implosion for the rest of the season, I feel this will be down to the fact that anything less than absolute perfection cannot see off Citeh. I am not expecting absolute perfection from our team (at least yet) for the simple reason that I think that this expectation is unrealistic.

[IBK]

Yep, exactly this Letters.

We are up against a machine, and like you said if Man City were not in the conversation then we would have one hand on the trophy IMO. Our points total so far this season is ridiculous! The amount of games we have won, the consistency of the performances, the quality of the performances with a squad that in my opinion can definitely be improved on without spending oil club money.

We still have it all to play for, but whatever happens, it's been a really good season and pleasing for me especially as i did not see this coming.

Yep. Agree with this. It's the Citeh factor that is the difference here and I make no excuses for observing this. Your (and Letters' and LDG's) comments do not prevent me from remaining really disappointed at dropping points after being 0-2 up and cruising in our past 2 games though...

[Marc Overmars]

Yep. Agree with this. It's the Citeh factor that is the difference here and I make no excuses for observing this. Your (and Letters' and LDG's) comments do not prevent me from remaining really disappointed at dropping points after being 0-2 up and cruising in our past 2 games though...

Yeah that’s where the crushing disappointment comes from, the manner of how we may have lost this title. It’s just so careless. Fair enough if we were battering a team and couldn’t break them down but losing a 2 goal lead twice in a row sends out a terrible message.

It reminded me of that Bolton game in 2003 that we also drew 2-2 after going 0-2 up. Felt like the writing was on the wall after that result and I feel exactly the same after watching Sundays events unfold.

[Letters]

I don't think that disappointment - which I also share - is a contradiction to acknowledging that we are up against an absolute machine in City. You have to be basically flawless to get the better of them, the only season someone did was when they were basically flawless for two thirds of the season. It will be disappointing if we make it easy for them but I can't help feeling they'd have mown us down regardless.

[IBK]

I don't think that disappointment - which I also share - is a contradiction to acknowledging that we are up against an absolute machine in City. You have to be basically flawless to get the better of them, the only season someone did was when they were basically flawless for two thirds of the season. It will be disappointing if we make it easy for them but I can't help feeling they'd have mown us down regardless.

Yes they are a machine and its hardly a level playing field at the top or further down the league.

It's nuts that a team that trail us by 4 points are overwhelming favourites for the title now!

What adds to the diappointment though is that if we had won the last 2 games - that were firmly in our grasp - we would have been 8 points ahead of them now - potentially 11 by Saturday. Even conceding 2 games in hand that is proper scoreboard pressure that I think would have seen us over the line.

[Marc Overmars]

I think many would have favoured us to get over the line if we had kept a cushion over City before the head to heads. We cocked up 2 games prior to the meeting in February and we’ve done exactly the same again here. They’ve got our number and will be firmly expected to beat us next week. We will have to play out of our skin to even get a draw.

[Letters]

I think many would have favoured us to get over the line if we had kept a cushion over City before the head to heads. We cocked up 2 games prior to the meeting in February and we’ve done exactly the same again here. They’ve got our number and will be firmly expected to beat us next week. We will have to play out of our skin to even get a draw.

It was a big red flag when they beat us at home. In the first half we went toe to toe with them, silly mistake for the goal but we deserved to get to half time level.
Second half they just cruised past us. They didn't batter us but they're so clinical and we aren't.
You don't lose at home to your rivals and win the title, that's when I felt we lost the title.
But our response to that was fantastic - 7 wins in a row. And that gave us a chance.
But...City just kept winning too because that's what they do at the business end of the season.
I'll be disappointed if we really collapse now, but if we get close to 90 points then you have to say that's been a fantastic effort.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Fair enough if you didn't intend to suggest we should ditch our manager (and I too can be guilty of binary overstatement), but in fairness saying lamenting a culture of mediocrity and saying it was good news that PSG are interested in our manager kind of invited this.


I stand by the fact that if there are those who want shot of Arteta - this is IMO astonishing and crazy. I would give him a 2 year extension based on this season - but that is just my opinion based on the progress we have seen. It's not accepting of mediocrity - just an acknowledgment that we have made clear linear progress under him and he should be allowed to finish his project. I disagree with you that we have not seen enough progress under him.


As for your fanshame comment - you wrote saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a bloody cop out! Pep and Klopp have always shocked us with subs before the half hour limit once they see something isn't quite right...our more experienced former manager who is doing a great job at Villa use to do the same thing too... always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me.


I remain of the opinion that our fairly wretched performance after going 0-2 up against West Ham had little to do with subs. The subs we made were ineffective, and there is therefore nothing to suggest that this would have changed if the key one - bringing Trossard and Jorginho on - had been made earlier. It's a valid opinion.


And using your own observation, I have never suggested that Arteta is blameless for what happened at Liverpool or West Ham. What I suggested was that he is not to blame for injuries or senior players letting themselves down. This was IMO the most important reason for dropping points at West Ham (although I think that Arteta was more culpable at Anfied for negative subs there that handed the initiative to Liverpool).


FWIW I don't think we will win the league now. In the cold light of day however bar a complete implosion for the rest of the season, I feel this will be down to the fact that anything less than absolute perfection cannot see off Citeh. I am not expecting absolute perfection from our team (at least yet) for the simple reason that I think that this expectation is unrealistic.

Your reply js fair enough, but I want to make one thing clear that this particular remark you referred to was directed squarely at Arteta as he has given numerous interviews where he expressed this exact sentiment:

"always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me."


That you as a fan think the same way is not a suprise, but a top manager should see the dangers inherent in this line of thought.

Once again, I think the theme of most criticism I have made about Mikel is consistent, yes Arteta might be doing a great job for his first gig , but it is his first gig and he'll keep making mistakes with us and learning on the job. The idea that we should not criticise someone learning on the job is inimical to growth and getting him and this team to be the best it can be.

[Mac76]

I think the theme of most criticism I have made about Mikel is consistent, yes Arteta might be doing a great job for his first gig , but it is his first gig and he'll keep making mistakes with us and learning on the job. The idea that we should not criticise someone learning on the job is inimical to growth and getting him and this team to be the best it can be.

yes, agree, that's where I'm coming from, I don't believe in blind acceptance of everything he does on the basis he's outperformed in some respects this year, as i've said there are flaws and ultimately he needs to show he recognises them and can iron them out or otherwise (and ok it won't happen this summer for sure) the club will have to make a decision if it wants to kick on

[HCZ_Reborn]

yes, agree, that's where I'm coming from, I don't believe in blind acceptance of everything he does on the basis he's outperformed in some respects this year, as i've said there are flaws and ultimately he needs to show he recognises them and can iron them out or otherwise (and ok it won't happen this summer for sure) the club will have to make a decision if it wants to kick on


But in all honesty do you think that anyone here thinks there should be blind acceptance

Arteta has many flaws. Yes he could and perhaps should have made better and more timely substitutions on Sunday but it felt to me that whatever we did wasn’t going to work, and that comes back to the brittleness of the players. Is that the coach’s fault? Well perhaps this is his team after all rather than one he’s inherited…this isn’t Wenger’s or Emery’s team it’s Arteta’s.

I don’t buy into the complacency thing that’s being talked about, what I saw on Sunday and at Anfield was fear and lack of belief when things weren’t going to plan.

But either way the point is that saying Arteta probably on balance deserves more time and that on balance he is on an upward trajectory is not the same as saying he’s done everything great and is beyond criticism. I was all ready to ditch him end of last season, that time way well come again soon.

[Mac76]

But in all honesty do you think that anyone here thinks there should be blind acceptance

Arteta has many flaws. Yes he could and perhaps should have made better and more timely substitutions on Sunday but it felt to me that whatever we did wasn’t going to work, and that comes back to the brittleness of the players. Is that the coach’s fault? Well perhaps this is his team after all rather than one he’s inherited…this isn’t Wenger’s or Emery’s team it’s Arteta’s.

I don’t buy into the complacency thing that’s being talked about, what I saw on Sunday and at Anfield was fear and lack of belief when things weren’t going to plan.

But either way the point is that saying Arteta probably on balance deserves more time and that on balance he is on an upward trajectory is not the same as saying he’s done everything great and is beyond criticism. I was all ready to ditch him end of last season, that time way well come again soon.

Some people seem to be saying the reason we won't win the title is down to City's consistency and dominance - yes that is a big factor but despite it, we have done enough to have had a convincing lead still, if Arteta had got more things right, that is what is frustrating.

And don't forget he didn't initially want to strengthen the squad with players like Jorginho and Trossard but get one super-player like Mudric or Felix - again the wrong approach in terms of what we needed to push on this season

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Some people seem to be saying the reason we won't win the title is down to City's consistency and dominance - yes that is a big factor but despite it, we have done enough to have had a convincing lead still, if Arteta had got more things right, that is what is frustrating.

And don't forget he didn't initially want to strengthen the squad with players like Jorginho and Trossard but get one super-player like Mudric or Felix - again the wrong approach in terms of what we needed to push on this season

Ding, dong !!

[Mac76]

Ding, dong !!

say wha? :shrug:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Some people seem to be saying the reason we won't win the title is down to City's consistency and dominance - yes that is a big factor but despite it, we have done enough to have had a convincing lead still, if Arteta had got more things right, that is what is frustrating.

And don't forget he didn't initially want to strengthen the squad with players like Jorginho and Trossard but get one super-player like Mudric or Felix - again the wrong approach in terms of what we needed to push on this season


But it’s not one or the other

Both things can be true. The mistakes are frustrating in regards to the substitutions, lack of rotation etc but the fact is that you simply can’t afford to make those mistakes because of how relentless City are. And it’s a high bar to set, in each of our last five titles wins we made major fuck ups during the season…in the unbeaten season there were 12 draws (and not to mention going out of the fa cup and champions league within three days of each other).

Losing at home to Leeds, Charlton and Newcastle in the last double winning season

Before the 2-0 game at Anfield in 1989 we lost at home to Derby and only drew with Wimbledon.

The point is even the most successful teams fuck up along the way, the managers make mistakes with the tactics, the substitutions…the players have a stinker.

That’s not to say you can’t criticise the coach. In every game we’ve dropped points this season we’ve done something wrong…but it’s just to say put into perspective the scope by which you can make mistakes and drop points and it not be costly is ridiculously narrow because of how relentless City are

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

say wha? :shrug:

Lol, agreeing with you dude.

It'll be interesting next season when Citeh get their rightful points deduction...I hope we won't be hearing things like "well the EPL should have taken 50 points off them to make it a more level playing field....."

..or maybe then Chelsea's massive investment in their squad will kick in and they'll become the new boogey man.....

IMO there will always be a team that has some sort of upper hand over us, people seem to have forgotten that we were never richer than Man U nor did we have the referees as our 12th man like they did, yet we competed.

Anyway, we should probably stay focused on this season, seeing as it ain't over yet.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It is over. Had we won at Anfield we might have been slight favourites but we didn’t, and West Ham was a must win which we didn’t win. Plus it’s about form, you simply cannot carry the form and mentality into the City game and expect anything but a hard violent raping.
I wouldn’t even be surprised if we drop points against Southampton. Not because they are any good, but simply because we are in free fall

[Marc Overmars]

Some people seem to be saying the reason we won't win the title is down to City's consistency and dominance - yes that is a big factor but despite it, we have done enough to have had a convincing lead still, if Arteta had got more things right, that is what is frustrating.

And don't forget he didn't initially want to strengthen the squad with players like Jorginho and Trossard but get one super-player like Mudric or Felix - again the wrong approach in terms of what we needed to push on this season

Convincing lead on paper, but we didn’t play City until mid Feb and still had/have some of the most difficult fixtures of the season to come. There was a reason why there was such caution even when we were 7 or 8 clear given the fixtures we still had to play. City’s most difficult games were arguably done and dusted after they came to the Emirates.

City have dropped silly points and so have we. It will be the head to heads that determine where the title is going and that’s why the margin is so fine. You could win every game but if you don’t come out on top in that the likelihood is that you won’t be winning the league.

[Mac76]

It is over. Had we won at Anfield we might have been slight favourites but we didn’t, and West Ham was a must win which we didn’t win. Plus it’s about form, you simply cannot carry the form and mentality into the City game and expect anything but a hard violent raping.
I wouldn’t even be surprised if we drop points against Southampton. Not because they are any good, but simply because we are in free fall


No I wouldn't be surprised either

[Letters]

Free fall? :lol:
2 games? Only one of which you’d expect us to win.
Calm down…

[HCZ_Reborn]

Free fall? :lol:
2 games? Only one of which you’d expect us to win.
Calm down…

It’s not the results it’s the performances, two games in a row where we’ve collapsed after having a two goal lead.

In the context of the season and the title hunt it is free fall

[Letters]

Convincing lead on paper, but we didn’t play City until mid Feb and still had/have some of the most difficult fixtures of the season to come. There was a reason why there was such caution even when we were 7 or 8 clear given the fixtures we still had to play. City’s most difficult games were arguably done and dusted after they came to the Emirates.
Right.

A mate has said a couple of times that us failing to win it would be the biggest capitulation since Newcastle. That is, as I’ve pointed out to him, complete bollox. I suspect he’s trolling, he’s a bit like that.

As I said to him, our run in is far harder. He responded “you all have to play all the same teams twice”. You do, but you don’t play them in the same order. We were in a bit of a false position with trips to Anfield, St James’ Park and The Ethiad in the last 10 games.

Plus we always knew that our squad was thin and injuries would hurt us more than City. And this is a young squad, we haven’t been there and done it year on year like City have.

Absolutely have to beat Southampton to put a bit of pressure on City for next Wednesday, but I’m not holding out too much hope :(

[fakeyank]

Wenger In

[Letters]

Wenger In

:haha:

[selassie]

Some people seem to be saying the reason we won't win the title is down to City's consistency and dominance - yes that is a big factor but despite it, we have done enough to have had a convincing lead still, if Arteta had got more things right, that is what is frustrating.

And don't forget he didn't initially want to strengthen the squad with players like Jorginho and Trossard but get one super-player like Mudric or Felix - again the wrong approach in terms of what we needed to push on this season

This is just purely an assumption that if he would have done things differently the results would have been as we wished. We simply do not know, it's not like we have a squad full of world class players who are being denied playing time.

Arteta has his faults, but he can only work with the players he has at his disposal, yes it is his squad, pretty much one he entirely built but it still needs improvements.

I don't think if we fall short it's simply a case of City are dominant and relentless, yes that plays a big factor, the biggest one...but there are other factors that come into play, such as some of Arteta's decision making...though we really do not and will not ever know, also factors such as our squad is simply not strong enough, though we can discount that right now because the title is still technically in our hands even if the odds seem firmly stacked against us.

I know it seems like I am jumping all over the place here, but I actually look at this in simple terms, we are in position nobody thought we would be in and it is not by luck, our performances on the whole back up our league position by merit. Also I don't see enough negatives or faults from Arteta that lead me to believe if we don't win it we blame him. I am not really sure how much more we can ask of him right now, he isn't perfect, but he is getting a lot right.

[Mac76]

It’s not the results it’s the performances

Quite - some people seem incapable of being able to read anything into what to the rest of us are obvious 'tells', in terms of things like how players are or the tactics used (if any), instead they simply put results down to random factors

it's why I've never really believed very much that we'd win the league, because of the things Arteta does and the flaws in certain players

I probably believed we'd win the league for about 20 minutes during the Liverpool game, but once Xhaka reverted to type that was it, back to reality...

[HCZ_Reborn]

Quite - some people seem incapable of being able to read anything into what to the rest of us are obvious 'tells', in terms of things like how players are or the tactics used (if any), instead they simply put results down to random factors

it's why I've never really believed very much that we'd win the league, because of the things Arteta does and the flaws in certain players

I probably believed we'd win the league for about 20 minutes during the Liverpool game, but once Xhaka reverted to type that was it, back to reality...


I’ll also remind you that you spent a week getting tetchy with me because I didn’t think a lot of the performances were that marvellous against Leeds, demonstrating that such a performance against Liverpool would be punished.

A draw against Liverpool I still believe was a creditable result, but the way it came about being two nil up and holding on for a draw is not.

I also think the Xhaka over reaction is a nice flashpoint but ultimately when you have several outfield players who retreat within themselves, fuck up basic passes etc is that to be blamed on Xhaka or are all the players who shit the bed responsible? I have to say I think it’s the latter. If you can’t stand the Anfield cauldron that’s more about your lack of fortitude.

Same with the Partey dawdling against West Ham, yes his casualness led to the penalty that brought them back into the game but it didn’t directly cause the other players whether they started or were brought on to behave like frightened rabbits.

Far more egregious than Arteta’s substitutions was his body language and screaming at the players to “calm down” if he’s not behaving calmly than why on earth are they going to respond in a calm way

[Mac76]

Xhaka ceratinly wasn't the only reason and I'm aware that some people say Sky overplayed the effect of that, but tbh i think there's something about the effect it had not just on Liverpool and their crowd but also our own players, who up to that point had been supremely focussed on playing football, but had that focus interrupted by having to try to prevent a fucking psychotic moron from getting himself sent off (again)

It's proof if ever needed that Xhaka should have been binned a long time ago, no-one ever really loses that self-destructiveness and it's cost us time and time again, it's one of Arteta's biggest black marks that he just can't see it

yes, ok, Xhaka is better (for which you can read "not a total disaster area") this season but we could have got someone else to do what he does, it's not that unique and he's ceratinly not the best at it

[HCZ_Reborn]

Xhaka ceratinly wasn't the only reason and I'm aware that some people say Sky overplayed the effect of that, but tbh i think there's something about the effect it had not just on Liverpool and their crowd but also our own players, who up to that point had been supremely focussed on playing football, but had that focus interrupted by having to try to prevent a fucking psychotic moron from getting himself sent off (again)

It's proof if ever needed that Xhaka should have been binned a long time ago, no-one ever really loses that self-destructiveness and it's cost us time and time again, it's one of Arteta's biggest black marks that he just can't see it

yes, ok, Xhaka is better (for which you can read "not a total disaster area") this season but we could have got someone else to do what he does, it's not that unique and he's ceratinly not the best at it


Oh Xhaka is a liability for sure, preaching to the converted but when you have two flash points in two different games involving two completely different players - one week Xhaka, the next the usually superb Partey….it speaks to something much larger going on.
But like with many of the things discussed on here it’s not an either or, if it’s not one player it’s another.

And my feeling for the moment is that to a degree you have to take the rough with the smooth. These players that irritate us have played an integral part in a side that’s dropped less than twenty points all season…and that’s including some teeth grinding fuck ups both from players and coach.

And this is where I come back to the city factor. Take away city and the last two games would realistically have meant that instead of going from 5 points ahead to 1 point ahead, we’d be looking at say 12-14 points reduced to 8-10 points…concerning for sure but we wouldn’t all be thinking we’d blown it.

And I don’t say that to say that it’s not possible for us to challenge city, I’m just saying that the margin of error is extremely tight. And I’ve never known an Arsenal side title winning or otherwise not to make errors, not to drop silly points. And maybe it’s a positive to say that we can see where we went wrong and how we’d go about rectifying them

[selassie]

Quite - some people seem incapable of being able to read anything into what to the rest of us are obvious 'tells', in terms of things like how players are or the tactics used (if any), instead they simply put results down to random factors

it's why I've never really believed very much that we'd win the league, because of the things Arteta does and the flaws in certain players

I probably believed we'd win the league for about 20 minutes during the Liverpool game, but once Xhaka reverted to type that was it, back to reality...

Ah the classic they don't understand when somebody does not agree with someone else's opinion.

[IBK]

Oh Xhaka is a liability for sure, preaching to the converted but when you have two flash points in two different games involving two completely different players - one week Xhaka, the next the usually superb Partey….it speaks to something much larger going on.
But like with many of the things discussed on here it’s not an either or, if it’s not one player it’s another.

And my feeling for the moment is that to a degree you have to take the rough with the smooth. These players that irritate us have played an integral part in a side that’s dropped less than twenty points all season…and that’s including some teeth grinding fuck ups both from players and coach.

And this is where I come back to the city factor. Take away city and the last two games would realistically have meant that instead of going from 5 points ahead to 1 point ahead, we’d be looking at say 12-14 points reduced to 8-10 points…concerning for sure but we wouldn’t all be thinking we’d blown it.

And I don’t say that to say that it’s not possible for us to challenge city, I’m just saying that the margin of error is extremely tight. And I’ve never known an Arsenal side title winning or otherwise not to make errors, not to drop silly points. And maybe it’s a positive to say that we can see where we went wrong and how we’d go about rectifying them

Agree with the bit in bold. It's not obsessing about another team rather than focussing on our own but acknowledging that with effectively 2 whole teams capable of winning the league in one with them we a challenger needs to be almost perfect - not just with performances but with luck. Our self- wounding has IMO cost us the title and that's hard to take - but by the same token I think that if we had even only lost 1 of Saliba and Tomi for the past month we would still be in the driving seat. I guess we need to acknowledge that had we had our first team available for the run in we would likely have achieved the incredible - not just taking the league but seeing off a freakish opponent. And I don't think that our performace this season is an aberration or a 'false' indicator either. I guess what worries me a bit is that even if we strengthen over the Summer, CL football will affect our league form, though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Quite - some people seem incapable of being able to read anything into what to the rest of us are obvious 'tells', in terms of things like how players are or the tactics used (if any), instead they simply put results down to random factors

it's why I've never really believed very much that we'd win the league, because of the things Arteta does and the flaws in certain players

I probably believed we'd win the league for about 20 minutes during the Liverpool game, but once Xhaka reverted to type that was it, back to reality...

Until Sky Sports told you what to think, you mean?

Can't remember. Did we always used to curse Paddy for winding up the crowd? Or was it one of the things that made it all the sweeter as our team of winners rubbed it in?

I guess if that team was losing we could have pointed to Paddy a a convenient excuse, or at least jumped onboard when Sky snapped its fingers.

[Mac76]

Until Sky Sports told you what to think, you mean?

Can't remember. Did we always used to curse Paddy for winding up the crowd? Or was it one of the things that made it all the sweeter as our team of winners rubbed it in?

I guess if that team was losing we could have pointed to Paddy a a convenient excuse, or at least jumped onboard when Sky snapped its fingers.

Sky overplayed it, it's too simplistic it say it changed everything, but equally you can't ignore it had an effect and I think it actually disturbed the focus of our own players. All anyone can say with certainty is that before that incident we were bossing it, after it we quickly conceded, just before half time, it was exactly what Klopp needed.

I'm perfectly prepared to say that having been moved up the pitch Xhaka has been less of a disaster area this season and I think we missed him against Saints, but he is ultimately a neanderthal who's relatively easily replaceble IMO with someone who can do.that job but also has some kind of self-control

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

Ok, the dust has settled from another poor performance at Forest.
So, where are we at with this thread? Does he deserve another season? Can we trust him with a £100m war chest? Personally, I would give him one more season to get rid of the last bits of dead wood and see where we are at.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t really see there’s any choice but to do that

I fear a lot of money will be wasted on bringing in Declan Rice.

[Chippy]

I don’t really see there’s any choice but to do that

I fear a lot of money will be wasted on bringing in Declan Rice.

Either that or we will chase him all summer and he will go somewhere else at the last minute.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Either that or we will chase him all summer and he will go somewhere else at the last minute.

As long as we don’t sign him I won’t care

[Marc Overmars]

Ok, the dust has settled from another poor performance at Forest.
So, where are we at with this thread? Does he deserve another season? Can we trust him with a £100m war chest? Personally, I would give him one more season to get rid of the last bits of dead wood and see where we are at.

He’s done something we haven’t done in 6 seasons and that’s qualify for the CL. So on that basis alone I don’t really feel like we should be questioning his position. It wasn’t just a 4th place cup either, we were in the title picture for most of the season which is something that hasn’t happened in a generation, we also had some hugely enjoyable moments and big wins along the way.

Can he break us through the glass ceiling? I don’t know and I’m inclined to believe not as we’ve just witnessed a second consecutive collapse. Albeit with different goals in the equation but the end result was sadly the same.

The last month has been massively deflating but I do believe that we moved the needle this season and I’m clinging on to the hope that this team can continue to grow and improve with some decent signings too.

[Letters]

There’s been a clear improvement this season which Arteta deserves the right to try and build on.
It’s possible he can’t take us further but the board have backed Arteta, changing him now would be too big a disruption.
It’s the first time since 2008 we’ve had a serious title challenge, our failure to finish the job is as much about City’s relentless march as our failings.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Been able to indulge my favourite pastime of Arteta bashing with a fellow Arsenal supporting mate today

Have to admit it felt good, it doesn’t feel right that I’ve defended a man who I absolutely loathe.

I actually think I dislike him more than Pulis, Dyche, Allardyce et Al. Just a horrible human being…arguably worse than Mourinho. At least Mourinho had something to back up his bravado

[Globalgunner]

We will be here again next season, as we were the previous making excuses for a ne-er do well. He doesnt have it within him to coach a title winning team and at the end of the day that is what its all about. Depending on which group we get in the CL, I cant see him doing better than 3rd place end ending up in Europa, which he will fail at ....again. Wenger Mk2

[Letters]

Who do you really think could have got the better of City this season?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Who do you really think could have got the better of City this season?

The fact remains that it was within our hands to win the title regardless of the result at City. This despite a collapse against Everton, Brentford and City. And more so it’s happened in games we should be expected to win. Even with the draw at Anfield and their superior goal difference we should be in the position of making them sweat on away results at Brighton and Brentford. The way we know Liverpool have done…pushed them all the way. Rather than be able to enjoy a run in the park today.

I won’t forgive Arteta for that. And neither should any Arsenal fan.

[Marc Overmars]

It was a forgivable collapse initially but the way the season has fizzled out into a steaming bag of shit doesn’t sit well with me. From where we were, to now be looking at finishing possibly 10 points behind is a swing I don’t think anyone saw coming.

We were actually a very good team this season and deserved to be where we were. We knew City wouldn’t go away but we couldn’t have made it easier for them in the end. It was a procession when it should have been going to the wire.

[Letters]

It was a forgivable collapse initially but the way the season has fizzled out into a steaming bag of shit doesn’t sit well with me. From where we were, to now be looking at finishing possibly 10 points behind is a swing I don’t think anyone saw coming.

We were actually a very good team this season and deserved to be where we were. We knew City wouldn’t go away but we couldn’t have made it easier for them in the end. It was a procession when it should have been going to the wire.

Aye, I think this is where I am. They're better than us, they're better than everyone. And if you go on a run of P18 W16 D1 L1 then you probably deserve the title, but I'm pretty pissed off that we didn't make them work for it till the last day. My gut feeling is they'd have done it anyway as they did to Liverpool a couple of times. I mean holy shit, 97 points and not winning the title is just insane. But the thing I'm pissed off about most is that we just gave up. They could have won it today anyway but to hand it to them without them kicking a ball. That hurts and I hope it hurts the players and they remember this next season.

[KSE Comedy Club]

There’s been a clear improvement this season which Arteta deserves the right to try and build on.
It’s possible he can’t take us further but the board have backed Arteta, changing him now would be too big a disruption.
It’s the first time since 2008 we’ve had a serious title challenge, our failure to finish the job is as much about City’s relentless march as our failings.

No, it's entirely on our shoulders.
Nothing to do with City, they were always going to be there. They are just a convenient excuse to cover up how spectacularly we have failed.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Who do you really think could have got the better of City this season?

We could have and we did for 93% of the season.

City has nothing to do with our total collapse in the last 10 games. That is just a coping mechanism for failure

[KSE Comedy Club]

It was a forgivable collapse initially but the way the season has fizzled out into a steaming bag of shit doesn’t sit well with me. From where we were, to now be looking at finishing possibly 10 points behind is a swing I don’t think anyone saw coming.

We were actually a very good team this season and deserved to be where we were. We knew City wouldn’t go away but we couldn’t have made it easier for them in the end. It was a procession when it should have been going to the wire.

Yep, me too.

Even the initial collapse was a little bit disappointing tbh.

We literally wrapped up the cup, put a bow on it, and left it back in the PL offices so that they could give it to City. Probably paid for the engraving as well!

It has been a total shit show for the last 8 games and unforgivable as there is no real explanation as to why it happened.

[Mac76]

It was a forgivable collapse initially but the way the season has fizzled out into a steaming bag of shit doesn’t sit well with me. From where we were, to now be looking at finishing possibly 10 points behind is a swing I don’t think anyone saw coming.

We were actually a very good team this season and deserved to be where we were. We knew City wouldn’t go away but we couldn’t have made it easier for them in the end. It was a procession when it should have been going to the wire.

Yeah, to think my main fear was whether those VAR-denied points v Brentford could cost us the title :lol: at least we don't have to worry about that anymore...

The real shame here is that what shoud have been seen as a very successful season will always be framed as a failure

Like you, I think we could have made it 50/50 up to the end and to me it's partly down the players' brittle mentality but mainly due to Arteta failing to manage his squad better and also failing to be more tactically astute in certain games. The more the season went on, his lack of a Plan B in terms of teams and tactics increasingly cost us IMO. His "they can play 70 games a season" mantra was always nonsense and has been proved to be so.

We can sit and say everyone will have learned lessons for next season, but for me the damage is longer-lasting in some respects. In particular Arteta's failing to give some players enough game time has really cost us, not just this season but also in terms of losing valuable assets which we'd now have to replace or will leave us even thinner.

I believe it was perfectly possible to give Tierney, Nelson etc enough game time that they'd have been keen to stay as part of the 'Project', instead we're facing an exodus of them plus Balogun while, it seems, hanging onto useless players like Eddie.

We've CL next season, the PL and also we can't be seen to dumping on the FAC this time, but if we're splurging all our spend on a few over-expensive players like Rice, how do we build the rest of the squad sufficiently?

[Marc Overmars]

Yep, me too.

Even the initial collapse was a little bit disappointing tbh.

We literally wrapped up the cup, put a bow on it, and left it back in the PL offices so that they could give it to City. Probably paid for the engraving as well!

It has been a total shit show for the last 8 games and unforgivable as there is no real explanation as to why it happened.

The West Ham and Southampton draws were incredibly careless and the defeat at the Etihad was inevitable. However it was still worth fighting for after that. Weirdly we pulled out one of our best performances of the season at Newcastle so I don’t believe we just ran out of steam. We absolutely should have made City work with 2 tricky away games to finish their season. It was a long shot but I can’t accept just downing tools because of a lack of belief. Liverpool demonstrated how relentless they were and that helped them become a monstrous team. They weren’t quitters like us.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Yeah, to think my main fear was whether those VAR-denied points v Brentford could cost us the title :lol: at least we don't have to worry about that anymore...

The real shame here is that what shoud have been seen as a very successful season will always be framed as a failure

Like you, I think we could have made it 50/50 up to the end and to me it's partly down the players' brittle mentality but mainly due to Arteta failing to manage his squad better and also failing to be more tactically astute in certain games. The more the season went on his plack of a Plan B in terms of teams and tactics increasingly cost us IMO. His "they can play 70 games a season" mantra was always nonsense and has been proved to be so.

We can sit and say everyone will have learned lessons for next season, but for me the damage is longer-lasting in some respects. In particular Arteta's failing to give some players enough game time has really cost us, not just this season but also in terms of losing valuable assets which we'd now have to replace or will leave us even thinner.

I believe it was perfectly possible to give Tierney, Nelson etc enough game time that they'd have been keen to stay as part of the 'Project', instead we're facing an exodus of them plus Balogun while, it seems, hanging onto useless players like Eddie.

We've CL next season, the PL and also we can't be seen to dumping on the FAC this time, but if we're splurging all our spend on a few over-expensive players like Rice, how do we build the rest of the squad sufficiently?

That's been my issue with Arteta as well.

Not changing things up, managing the squad correctly, letting players sit out games too often, etc.

All not good enough and you have to question his ability to take us further forward because of those things.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The West Ham and Southampton draws were incredibly careless and the defeat at the Etihad was inevitable. However it was still worth fighting for after that. Weirdly we pulled out one of our best performances of the season at Newcastle so I don’t believe we just ran out of steam. We absolutely should have made City work with 2 tricky away games to finish their season. It was a long shot but I can’t accept just downing tools because of a lack of belief. Liverpool demonstrated how relentless they were and that helped them become a monstrous team. They weren’t quitters like us.

Yes I agree.

I would even go so far as to say that, had we actually bothered to turn up against City, we may have held them to a draw or at the very least fought them hard enough that we could push on mentally and fight for the league until the very end.

We lost it at Anfield IMO.
the Xhaka thing was irrelevant I thought, it was the fact that we went 2 up and thought the game was done, same with West Ham, switched off completely.

Poor mentality to have and if you look back over the whole season, there were other games that we were clearly the better team, but were not ruthless enough and didn't score as many goals as we could.
The Southampton game was a joke, but I blame Arteta for that, for starting Vieira and leaving Jorge on the bench - unforgivable in the position we were in.

Also suddenly starting Holding for 3 games (when he was already not good enough last season) and then putting Kiwior in, who should've been the first choice regardless.

[Niall_Quinn]

Again, I urge people to look at last season and what a shit state the club was in. There was literally NO HOPE on any front. Everything was as shit as shit could be.

And then this season.

It's not a successful season in terms of trophies or prospective trophies. Let's face it, qualifying for the CL is meaningless in terms of anything other than cash and greedy badge kissing player retention. Which counts, in cynical terms. But not compared to City. We have literally zero chance of competing in the CL at any embarrassing level. Because we're nowhere near that yet.

However. We can kick a ball now. Make a pass. Play the ball upfield. Take a throw. Take a corner. And, most importantly, defend. The basics. All the things we'd forgotten. Now in place.

Next season is about building on that by addressing the elephant that has always been in the room since Wenger got intense heat and deviancy for Fabregas. And the whole cavalcade of bullshit that comes from being Barcelona with a Leicester City spending mentality. That insanity wrecked the core of the club and send us down a two decades spiral. It bred the PL out of the club and instilled a weakness that hasn't been addressed to this day. Cowardice in the face of the fight. The very opposite of Wenger's previous great love, Vieira. Paddy was SO, SO important to the club, it can't even be estimated. He was a weapon Wenger could simply deploy and so much took care of itself thereafter.

Never replaced. Instead, intense fragility in the middle. Artistic, for sure. But weak when the fight became close quarters. Flat track bullies who got raped when their fire was met with fire.

Now we have the dancing and prancing Odegard, who has all the qualities of Cesc, but even less in the bollocks department. And our new Denilson, Partey, minus the skill. Only Xhaka possessed an ounce of what's needed in the agricultural PL. And he's gone I hear. Oh dear, oh fuck. What's that all about? Makes not one ounce of sense unless a significant signing is on the horizon.

But the pansies remaining have at least learned the basics. So the real question is, can Arteta now install the fire? Don't know. He's never done it before but he deserves the chance, considering he's done what late-era Wenger and the other bloke never managed. Build a team that can compete to at least a competent degree in the PL.

Not sure how Arteta can be criticised from taking the impossible and moving it halfway to the improbable. But that's what he's done. He deserves at least one more season to see if he can do the second half of the job. I don't envy him.

[IBK]

Again, I urge people to look at last season and what a shit state the club was in. There was literally NO HOPE on any front. Everything was as shit as shit could be.

And then this season.

It's not a successful season in terms of trophies or prospective trophies. Let's face it, qualifying for the CL is meaningless in terms of anything other than cash and greedy badge kissing player retention. Which counts, in cynical terms. But not compared to City. We have literally zero chance of competing in the CL at any embarrassing level. Because we're nowhere near that yet.

However. We can kick a ball now. Make a pass. Play the ball upfield. Take a throw. Take a corner. And, most importantly, defend. The basics. All the things we'd forgotten. Now in place.

Next season is about building on that by addressing the elephant that has always been in the room since Wenger got intense heat and deviancy for Fabregas. And the whole cavalcade of bullshit that comes from being Barcelona with a Leicester City spending mentality. That insanity wrecked the core of the club and send us down a two decades spiral. It bred the PL out of the club and instilled a weakness that hasn't been addressed to this day. Cowardice in the face of the fight. The very opposite of Wenger's previous great love, Vieira. Paddy was SO, SO important to the club, it can't even be estimated. He was a weapon Wenger could simply deploy and so much took care of itself thereafter.

Never replaced. Instead, intense fragility in the middle. Artistic, for sure. But weak when the fight became close quarters. Flat track bullies who got raped when their fire was met with fire.

Now we have the dancing and prancing Odegard, who has all the qualities of Cesc, but even less in the bollocks department. And our new Denilson, Partey, minus the skill. Only Xhaka possessed an ounce of what's needed in the agricultural PL. And he's gone I hear. Oh dear, oh fuck. What's that all about? Makes not one ounce of sense unless a significant signing is on the horizon.

But the pansies remaining have at least learned the basics. So the real question is, can Arteta now install the fire? Don't know. He's never done it before but he deserves the chance, considering he's done what late-era Wenger and the other bloke never managed. Build a team that can compete to at least a competent degree in the PL.

Not sure how Arteta can be criticised from taking the impossible and moving it halfway to the improbable. But that's what he's done. He deserves at least one more season to see if he can do the second half of the job. I don't envy him.

:gp:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m going to make a bet that based on Saturdays performance against Forest, Arteta will be gone by December

You can’t play like that and expect anything but humiliation

[Chippy]

Is it too early to start this again? Probably not.

Personally, I would do it now, just for signing Havertz. However, I would say by early January.

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

Based on new signings (Havertz and Rice) for around £165m, it should be now. However, he will leave after this season when we fail to get into the top four.

[Mac76]

Agree about Havertz but while Rice was silly money, he is a good player for us, it's worth really watching a bit more closely to see the difference he makes, he's not a showy payer but he does make things gel when on form and also can play some good forward passes, yesterday he was poor though

I think top four will be a struggle unless Arteta can get us to click in the PL soon

[Marc Overmars]

For me Rice is a very good player, probably not a world beater, but a player who absolutely leads by example and will drag results out of us if he has to. We were so flat in the second half yesterday without him and Spurs easily got hold of the midfield after that.

I said before that Havertz is either a stroke of genius or a huge failure that might even cost Arteta his job if things go really bad. It’s difficult to see where he fits in and for 70m we definitely could have signed ourselves a proper striker.

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

I am surprised that this page is untouched this morning. :unsure:

To me, last night V Lens just showed how much of a Rookie Arteta is.

He continues to play Havertz and Zinchenko. He played Saka who is clearly carrying an injury, and he replaces Ramsdale with Raya when Ramsdale has done nothing wrong.

The same rubbish will continue on Sunday.

[Mac76]

I am surprised that this page is untouched this morning. :unsure:

To me, last night V Lens just showed how much of a Rookie Arteta is.

He continues to play Havertz and Zinchenko. He played Saka who is clearly carrying an injury, and he replaces Ramsdale with Raya when Ramsdale has done nothing wrong.

The same rubbish will continue on Sunday.

:gp:

I was a bit more optimistic after the Bournemouth game, but Arteta completely fouled things up last night - I can't believe we're paying £8m a year to someone who can't understand the basics of squad management

I'm almost starting to wonder whether his loyalties really still lie with Citeh and he's just clearlng their path for them by hobbling a competitor

[Letters]

Only game we've lost all season, a point off the top of the table after a good 4-0 away win and Arteta out? :lol:

You lot are silly!

[Mac76]

Only game we've lost all season, a point off the top of the table after a good 4-0 away win and Arteta out? :lol:

You lot are silly!

as always it's the underlying trends that you need to look at - he still is failing to utilise the squad and in particular simply refuses to rest Saka in all but the most trivial games, last night showed perfectly what happens when you do that, we have in all likelihood lost one of our key players ahead of the Citeh game because of it, plus other important players won't be as fresh - and we still lost the game

this is utter incompetence

[HCZ_Reborn]

Only game we've lost all season, a point off the top of the table after a good 4-0 away win and Arteta out? :lol:

You lot are silly!


Maybe actually engage with the arguments being made, they are not saying like I admittedly stated earlier on in the season that Arteta should be sacked now (although I’m sure they wouldn’t object to that). It’s more pointing out that last night perfectly showcased how despite the money we’ve spent we probably aren’t going to make any further progress under this coach because of this utter stubborn hubris…overplaying Saka, sticking Vieira on the wing…trying this high pressing game which we don’t really have the players to do in a sustained fashion and leaves us playing in front of them sideways passing trying to shit through the eye of a needle.

[Chippy]

Only game we've lost all season, a point off the top of the table after a good 4-0 away win and Arteta out? :lol:

You lot are silly!

I understand your point, Letters.

However, we have limped through games so far this season (apart from Bournemouth, they are terrible though to be fair). IMHO, we were a bit lucky against the Spuds to get a draw.

But as mentioned in my post, Arteta is still making mistakes that everyone can see! It is a bit like the last days of Wenger :(

[Letters]

Arteta is still making mistakes that everyone can see! It is a bit like the last days of Wenger :(
I agree with the first sentence but I completely disagree with the second.
He is still making mistakes - if Saka is out for Sunday then that's on Arteta, it's clear he's been struggling through games and has been overplayed, he needed a rest last night.
And I take the point about playing players out of position/picking the wrong players and so on. We can all have opinions about that stuff, overall I care about the end result and while sure, we've not been cruising through games we have been getting results and surely it's a good sign than we can do that while not at our best. I think if we lose to City - and, let's face it, our record suggests that's likely - then it will show that we're no better off than last season. But the reason I disagree with your second sentence is things feel different at the club than they did during Wenger's swansong. I loved the way they let Havertz take that penalty at the weekend, and the way they celebrated with him. There's a real spirit in this squad I haven't seen for a long time. And the connection between the team and the fans is a lot stronger than it was too.
So, overall, my gut feeling is we're not going to be sweeping all before us this season, but I also think that swapping out Arteta for a different managers - who will just have different flaws and make different mistakes - would just set us back, not push us on.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This is informed I have to say by what I’d call a small c conservative mindset. We absolutely shouldn’t swap out managers on a whim, but at the same time Arteta has been coach for four years now and I don’t think the immense spending we’ve seen has been reflected in results. The transfer strategy has improved, I have to admit this from buying mid level journeymen to make that one big push towards top 4 has changed to make us more sustainable but it’s come at a high cost and really it’s not been a particularly efficient use of money.

The latest example is getting rid of Ramsdale for Raya, a goalkeeper who isn’t better than Ramsdale let alone significantly better and in fact I’d argue in terms of ball distribution is actually a downgrade. We know that this having two top quality keepers is a load of manure, it’s just that rather than look at the system we play as being responsible for goals conceded at home…Arteta blames the goalkeeper instead.

Arsenal fans are ambitious, we don’t want to be in the champions league just because that’s where we expect to be as a club, we expect to be competitive in the competition and using it as a springboard for title challenges. The fact is victory is copacetic, and if you are purely looking at the results and not the performances you fail to appreciate that a result last night was on the cards. No, in of itself it’s a disappointment more than a disaster but if you’re not actually watching the games you fail to understand that these type of defeats a) don’t come out of nowhere and b) are unlikely to be standalone.

Our record against City is disgraceful pure and simple, to have lost 12 games in the league in a row to them is simply unacceptable for a club at our level. It’s not something we should shrug our shoulders about, and if that becomes 14 in a row it’s not unreasonable to argue that we have reached the limit of what we can achieve with this coach.

I had an argument with a friend over Klopp, him saying there’s no evidence of Klopp being an exceptional coach because of the sustained financial investment Liverpool have had a) Liverpool have spent 300million net since Klopp joined, we’ve spent 480 million net in far less time under Arteta and b) whilst money is the biggest driving factor in success, in order for that to translate into success it needs to be spent the right way.

With the money we’ve spent as a club, our ambition should be limitless not just being pathetically grateful that we are back in the top four. But ultimately you have to ask yourself this, do you think we can win the premier league title and the European cup under Arteta, if the answer is no then you have to ask yourself why the hesitancy to say maybe we do need to look at other coaches to move us forward.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The main problem is Arteta is trying to emulate what has made Man City and to a lesser extent Liverpool successful.

What he should be doing is providing an adaptation of what made Arsenal successful. And take away Henry, Pires, Bergkamp and the defenders we had. Our success was built around our central midfield be it Vieira and Petit or Vieira and Gilberto. Everything we did that allowed us to take teams apart was predicated on having those two defenders that could very quickly transition defence into attack. You can say football has moved on since then but I don’t think it has, and until we come as close to replicating that kind of partnership in midfield we are just becoming a poor imitation of clubs that have had more recent success

[Letters]

do you think we can win the premier league title and the European cup under Arteta, if the answer is no then you have to ask yourself why the hesitancy to say maybe we do need to look at other coaches to move us forward.
My answer is no, but the hesitancy comes from the fact that I'm not that convinced many coaches would move us forward.
I just feel that winning the PL is harder than it was 20 or 30 years ago. What Leicester did was very much the outlier, every other title has been won with an exceptional manager, a bucket load of money or both. Arguably we have the latter, I'd agree we don't have the former but they don't grow on trees. And Arteta has at least restored the connection between the club and the fans, something that has been lamentably missing. Also, it's not a given that a top manager would fit in with us as a club. I'd argue Emery is better than Arteta, but he didn't work out.
My feeling is we're just as likely, possibly more likely, to go backwards as progress under a new manager.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My answer is no, but the hesitancy comes from the fact that I'm not that convinced many coaches would move us forward.
I just feel that winning the PL is harder than it was 20 or 30 years ago. What Leicester did was very much the outlier, every other title has been won with an exceptional manager, a bucket load of money or both. Arguably we have the latter, I'd agree we don't have the former but they don't grow on trees. And Arteta has at least restored the connection between the club and the fans, something that has been lamentably missing. Also, it's not a given that a top manager would fit in with us as a club. I'd argue Emery is better than Arteta, but he didn't work out.
My feeling is we're just as likely, possibly more likely, to go backwards as progress under a new manager.


Why is it harder ? Would you say it’s because of spending power. And if that’s the case would you not argue that we have had considerable resources over the past three years. And that using the example of the Leicester outlier is actually a very misleading account of where we find ourselves.

And that we’ve seen with a club that would be far more realistic to compare us to in Liverpool that it is in fact possible for the right man to win us silverware

[Letters]

Why is it harder ? Would you say it’s because of spending power.
That's a big factor, yes.


And if that’s the case would you not argue that we have had considerable resources over the past three years.
I don't think that can be disputed, but I'd note that it took City 4 years to win their first title after being taken over. It took them 10 years before they achieved a real period of dominance.
Chelsea won the title quicker after they got the infinite money cheat, but they finished Top 4 before they were taken over so had less of a gap to bridge.

And now while yes, we are able to spend big we aren't uniquely so. We're not in the position that Chelsea or City were when their resources were significantly more than everyone else's, we are competing with other teams who can also spend eye-watering amounts.


And that we’ve seen with a club that would be far more realistic to compare us to in Liverpool that it is in fact possible for the right man to win us silverware

I wouldn't disagree with that but by "the right man" you're probably talking about a handful of people in world football, all of whom are currently employed elsewhere and there's no immediate reason to think we could tempt them to join us. And just because <insert manager here> achieved success elsewhere that doesn't mean they would with us. I refer you once again to Emery who wasn't at the level of the people you're probably thinking of, but has certainly done better elsewhere than he did at Arsenal.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's a big factor, yes.


I don't think that can be disputed, but I'd note that it took City 4 years to win their first title after being taken over. It took them 10 years before they achieved a real period of dominance.
Chelsea won the title quicker after they got the infinite money cheat, but they finished Top 4 before they were taken over so had less of a gap to bridge.

And now while yes, we are able to spend big we aren't uniquely so. We're not in the position that Chelsea or City were when their resources were significantly more than everyone else's, we are competing with other teams who can also spend eye-watering amounts.



I wouldn't disagree with that but by "the right man" you're probably talking about a handful of people in world football, all of whom are currently employed elsewhere and there's no immediate reason to think we could tempt them to join us. And just because <insert manager here> achieved success elsewhere that doesn't mean they would with us. I refer you once again to Emery who wasn't at the level of the people you're probably thinking of, but has certainly done better elsewhere than he did at Arsenal.

We have one of the most valuable squads in world football and you don’t know think a top manager would be interested in joining us?

Chelsea are a complete mess, they are only FFP compliant because of the length of contract they’ve signed a multitude of players too. City are in a precarious situation, Haaland aside the nucleus of their squad is ageing and when you look at their summer outlay it would be hard to argue they are replacing these players with the same quality. Newcastle I think will take a few years to get themselves where they want to be. So really our time is now, and for me we are squandering a massive opportunity by placating an arrogant and hubristic manager who is no where near as intelligent or good as he thinks he is

[Letters]

we are squandering a massive opportunity by placating an arrogant and hubristic manager who is no where near as intelligent or good as he thinks he is
He's nowhere near as stupid and bad as you think he is.

I do think we could attract a top manager, but there's not many managers around at that really top level. Changing manager isn't a guarantee of improvement. It's given Spurs a boost but they were such a bloody mess last year. In a situation where the players are behind the manager and playing for each other - which I believe is true at Arsenal - changing manager is more likely to be disruptive, IMO.

[HCZ_Reborn]

He's nowhere near as stupid and bad as you think he is.

I do think we could attract a top manager, but there's not many managers around at that really top level. Changing manager isn't a guarantee of improvement. It's given Spurs a boost but they were such a bloody mess last year. In a situation where the players are behind the manager and playing for each other - which I believe is true at Arsenal - changing manager is more likely to be disruptive, IMO.


No Risk, No Reward

You don’t see him as bad because you’re content with where we are, I’m not…I see a big opportunity being squandered. There’s never guarantees in life. I can’t guarantee 100% that Arteta won’t get us the title, but I’d say that it’s more likely than not that he won’t. And on top of that this is a coach who is individually responsible for us dropping points arguably more than the players themselves or superior opposition.

It’s unlikely I can expect anything to happen before the summer, but should we absolutely be scouting Europe to find someone who can get us further than Arteta? Of course we should. Xabi Alonso at Bayer Leverkusen would be one to keep our eyes on, someone who might well have the talent to match their arrogance.

[Letters]

You don’t see him as bad because you’re content with where we are
I'm of the view that you can only really assess "where we are" at the end of a season. Although obviously if you're rock bottom at Christmas that gives you some indication.
The further in to the season you get the more evidence you have for where we are.

I'm certainly happy with where we were at the end of last season. It was massively better than where any of us thought we'd be. It wasn't just a freakishly good start, we were in the title race till the business end of the season. There are annoyances, the FA Cup exit and the collapse towards the end which meant we handed City the title on a plate rather than making them run to the line. But, overall, madness to think about replacing the manager at that stage IMO.

And I was pleased with the business we did in the summer. By that I mean I was pleased that we got business done early and we landed some of our targets. We can certainly question whether we've spent well but we've shown some ambition and it's an indication the board are backing Arteta.

The question is where are we now? At the time of writing we've had a few bad results, some bad performances where we got good results despite them. But what it adds up to right now is we're still in all the competitions we can be in. We're in touch at the top of the table, there's enough games in the CL group that our fate is very much in our own hands. So far, so adequate.

My overall view is it's probable that Arteta can't take us much further, but he's absolutely earned the right to try. A combination of last season's efforts and the summer spending have put some pressure on. Expectations are higher and Arteta needs to deliver. But by that I don't mean it's the PL or bust, but we certainly should be in the running till the end. CL...I expect us to get out of the group, after that I think we'll be found wanting. Other Cups impossible to predict and I wouldn't make those part of the criteria to judge him anyway.

I'm not convinced that removing a manager who has the backing of the players is anything other than a backwards step - it might ultimately end up taking us forwards overall I guess, but there's no guarantee of that. I am by nature a bit risk adverse. Arteta isn't the Messiah but he isn't a very naughty boy either.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm of the view that you can only really assess "where we are" at the end of a season. Although obviously if you're rock bottom at Christmas that gives you some indication.
The further in to the season you get the more evidence you have for where we are.

I'm certainly happy with where we were at the end of last season. It was massively better than where any of us thought we'd be. It wasn't just a freakishly good start, we were in the title race till the business end of the season. There are annoyances, the FA Cup exit and the collapse towards the end which meant we handed City the title on a plate rather than making them run to the line. But, overall, madness to think about replacing the manager at that stage IMO.

And I was pleased with the business we did in the summer. By that I mean I was pleased that we got business done early and we landed some of our targets. We can certainly question whether we've spent well but we've shown some ambition and it's an indication the board are backing Arteta.

The question is where are we now? At the time of writing we've had a few bad results, some bad performances where we got good results despite them. But what it adds up to right now is we're still in all the competitions we can be in. We're in touch at the top of the table, there's enough games in the CL group that our fate is very much in our own hands. So far, so adequate.

My overall view is it's probable that Arteta can't take us much further, but he's absolutely earned the right to try. A combination of last season's efforts and the summer spending have put some pressure on. Expectations are higher and Arteta needs to deliver. But by that I don't mean it's the PL or bust, but we certainly should be in the running till the end. CL...I expect us to get out of the group, after that I think we'll be found wanting. Other Cups impossible to predict and I wouldn't make those part of the criteria to judge him anyway.

I'm not convinced that removing a manager who has the backing of the players is anything other than a backwards step - it might ultimately end up taking us forwards overall I guess, but there's no guarantee of that. I am by nature a bit risk adverse. Arteta isn't the Messiah but he isn't a very naughty boy either.


Nothing is certain but ultimately there’s probably been enough games played now to get an idea of where we are likely to be. At the moment things are a struggle, we are around mid table in terms of chance creation as a mixture of the wrong personnel and wrong system. There is very little indication that this will improve, and in fact we’ve needed injuries for Arteta to switch things up (with the exception of goalkeeper which really isn’t a high priority cause for concern area…and in fact Raya has made far more mistakes between the sticks than Ramsdale, despite having played fewer games).

Rather than build on what we’ve achieved last year it feels that we’ve gone backward….(we’ve dropped points at home in two fixtures we won last season, as well as losing to one of the weakest European opponents we’ve faced since Ostersunds)

We look like scoring fewer goals, we look more predictable and it’s only especially away from home that we have the two best centre backs in the league that we look solid at the back that we haven’t conceded more. With the exception of one game this season (the home game against PSV) we’ve looked unconvincing. Attacking players look unhappy because they are not getting the ball quickly enough to have the space to operate in, players like Odegaard and Havertz are being asked to play a high pressing game which is not something that they are particularly good at. And it’s only Partey getting injured that means we’ve stopped playing him at right back.

If you don’t watch the games and are just comfortable with a top four finish, then yeah there’s nothing to be concerned about…although if Saka is out for a long time…you’ve essentially lost our most vital attacking outlet so even that is thrown into doubt.

If your attitude is “oh we will probably lose to city at the weekend but never mind, we are better off than where we were three years ago” then yeah I can see why you’re happy with how things are. We’ve paid a hell of a lot of money, it’s below even a bare minimum requirement than we are better than we were three years ago.

I’m not arguing that he should be sacked now, because I think it’s too late to turn things around in terms of actually competing for the title. We simply don’t have the right midfield setup or a striker. But should we be looking to replace him next summer with someone who can have a better chance of taking us forward because they aren’t locked in by Dunning-Kruger effect yes absolutely.

Players are professionals, this idea that they are especially bonded to Arteta is for the birds, especially when they’ve seen with Ramsdale and Tierney that he will drop them for almost no reason.

[Mac76]

Nothing is certain but ultimately there’s probably been enough games played now to get an idea of where we are likely to be. At the moment things are a struggle, we are around mid table in terms of chance creation as a mixture of the wrong personnel and wrong system. There is very little indication that this will improve, and in fact we’ve needed injuries for Arteta to switch things up (with the exception of goalkeeper which really isn’t a high priority cause for concern area…and in fact Raya has made far more mistakes between the sticks than Ramsdale, despite having played fewer games).

Rather than build on what we’ve achieved last year it feels that we’ve gone backward….(we’ve dropped points at home in two fixtures we won last season, as well as losing to one of the weakest European opponents we’ve faced since Ostersunds)

We look like scoring fewer goals, we look more predictable and it’s only especially away from home that we have the two best centre backs in the league that we look solid at the back that we haven’t conceded more. With the exception of one game this season (the home game against PSV) we’ve looked unconvincing. Attacking players look unhappy because they are not getting the ball quickly enough to have the space to operate in, players like Odegaard and Havertz are being asked to play a high pressing game which is not something that they are particularly good at. And it’s only Partey getting injured that means we’ve stopped playing him at right back.

If you don’t watch the games and are just comfortable with a top four finish, then yeah there’s nothing to be concerned about…although if Saka is out for a long time…you’ve essentially lost our most vital attacking outlet so even that is thrown into doubt.

If your attitude is “oh we will probably lose to city at the weekend but never mind, we are better off than where we were three years ago” then yeah I can see why you’re happy with how things are. We’ve paid a hell of a lot of money, it’s below even a bare minimum requirement than we are better than we were three years ago.

I’m not arguing that he should be sacked now, because I think it’s too late to turn things around in terms of actually competing for the title. We simply don’t have the right midfield setup or a striker. But should we be looking to replace him next summer with someone who can have a better chance of taking us forward because they aren’t locked in by Dunning-Kruger effect yes absolutely.

Players are professionals, this idea that they are especially bonded to Arteta is for the birds, especially when they’ve seen with Ramsdale and Tierney that he will drop them for almost no reason.

most of that's right although i do think Partey at RB was because he didn't have Zin at LB and he wanted to carry on his inverted FB BS

that said there may well also have been something going on with Gabriel and he was trying to prove we didn't need him by playing White at CB, which was shown to be blatantly dumb and whether he likes it or not he simply can't undermine our defence by not playing Gabriel and Saliba as a partnership and in their best positions

his combination of rookieness, failing to see the obvious, obsession with previous-era Citeh, inability to deal with various different character types and general stubborness are a terrible combination

[Letters]

If your attitude is “oh we will probably lose to city at the weekend but never mind, we are better off than where we were three years ago”.
It isn't.

[HCZ_Reborn]

most of that's right although i do think Partey at RB was because he didn't have Zin at LB and he wanted to carry on his inverted FB BS

that said there may well also have been something going on with Gabriel and he was trying to prove we didn't need him by playing White at CB, which was shown to be blatantly dumb and whether he likes it or not he simply can't undermine our defence by not playing Gabriel and Saliba as a partnership and in their best positions

his combination of rookieness, failing to see the obvious, obsession with previous-era Citeh, inability to deal with various different character types and general stubborness are a terrible combination


I don’t know but I suspect the issue with Gabriel was connected to the possibility of Arsenal selling him to one of the Saudi clubs. There was interest shown in him, and I do think the club is mindful of the fact that we’ve spent a lot of money and need to recoup some of it, which means being prepared to accept a “offer you can’t refuse” bid for even our best players, especially in light of the failure to make much money on the players we do want to sell.

I don’t think the “Rookie” thing is especially relevant, I think actually in many ways you’re better off with a young coach because they are more open to change and innovation, where as the longer a coach has been in the game the more they tend to get stuck in their ways. Arteta is a junior Guardiola, and I’m minded to think that were he coaching City whilst he might not as successful as his mentor…..they’d still be winning things. Guardiola has all the same flaws as Arteta. I think Guardiola is more extroverted but he is someone who thinks he’s more intelligent than he is, as I say his system at City is working because the players he’s had at his disposal are good enough to manage despite it’s obvious clunkiness…Guardiola not a people person, not particularly warm or friendly…hes more agressive where Arteta is passive aggressive but both are stubborn and inflexible. Why it’s taken him so long to win the champions league with City and why he never succeeded in doing so with Barcelona.
Arteta will go to City and he will probably do ok there depending on whether their spending ability remains largely unchanged.

What we needed was someone who was a cross between Klopp and Wenger, Klopp knew when he came to Liverpool that a number of players he had at his disposal were just not good enough but he didn’t just freeze them out…he incorporated them into his team so either he made full use of them or by the time it came to upgrade them they hadn’t been bench warming for a year and totally depleted of value to buying clubs.

If Arteta doesn’t rate you, it’s very hard almost impossible to change his mind, and if you’re not worthy of playing in his team you’re not worthy of his time. You’ll see that a lot of people who left simply stated that they never even had a single conversation with Arteta between the time they joined and the time they left.

I don’t think he likes what we might call difficult players but ultimately he will tolerate them as long as they are useful (which he did with Auba). Rightly or wrongly he regarded Xhaka as one of our better players, although that said i think he wanted an upgrade on him in 2021, but when he struggled to get in the player he wanted to replace him (Manuel Locatelli) he panicked and convinced Xhaka to sign a new deal.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It isn't.

Then I would suggest you spend more time actually watching games and gathering an evidence base for yourself before simply dismissing the arguments of others. Because let’s be fair that’s what you’re doing, it’s not just you disagree your opening gambit was that it was utterly crazy to even discuss replacing Arteta where we are at the moment. Which I’ve no doubt you’d be more than capable of providing a substantive argument in favour of, but not without actually watching the games

[Letters]

Then I would suggest you spend more time actually watching games and gathering an evidence base for yourself before simply dismissing the arguments of others. Because let’s be fair that’s what you’re doing, it’s not just you disagree your opening gambit was that it was utterly crazy to even discuss replacing Arteta where we are at the moment. Which I’ve no doubt you’d be more than capable of providing a substantive argument in favour of, but not without actually watching the games

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

When your opinion is a) based on a far smaller evidentiary base b) utterly dismissive of the opinions of others, which as I’ve said seems far more about your risk adverse small c conservative mindset (which was very much the case with your reticence to replace Wenger back in the day) rather than actually being convinced by the coach. Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” and “we have no guarantees of getting someone better”.

Fine I don’t think there’s even anything necessary wrong with believing that, but your diagnosis that it ain’t broke comes from watching match highlights and seeing the league table early on….rather than the performances which you must admit whether people here are pro or anti Arteta are raising a hell of a lot of red flags.

I accept that my argument at the beginning of the season was histrionic, but even that is tempered with a couple of injuries to key players and it could really all go down the shitter in a big way. And I don’t think it’s crazy at all to believe that Arteta has peaked in what he’s able to achieve for us, and that a club of ambition should at the very least have an eye on an upgrade.

[Letters]

your diagnosis that it ain’t broke.
That isn't my diagnosis.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That isn't my diagnosis.

Then what exactly are you arguing? You’re far from stupid….you know that I’m not making an unsubstantiated and baseless claim when I’m talking about the massive expenditure this club has seen under Mikel Arteta. When I say broke I don’t mean creases to be ironed out, I mean serious flaws so either our definition of broken is very different or I’m at a loss as to what your objection is

[Mac76]

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

tbf highlights really don't tell you much, I know that from watching the games and then watching the highilghts - I've seen gamese where we were pretty crap for 80 minutes but then have the highlights make us look really good because it's the ten acculmulated minutes where we actaully did anything worthwhile

[HCZ_Reborn]

tbf highlights really don't tell you much, I know that from watching the games and then watching the highilghts - I've seen gamese where we were pretty crap for 80 minutes but then have the highlights make us look really good because it's the ten acculmulated minutes where we actaully did anything worthwhile

Yep you don’t really get a full flavour from match of the day and even less of one from the snippet highlight reels that Skysports produce.

Of course you could argue that even at our best, there were games where the spells of brilliance are deceptive and much more of the game is a turgid nothing….and I’d say that’s largely reflective of our away game performances so far. Largely in control but stifled when it comes to the all important affair of putting the ball in the net. Though I suspect that’s as much because Everton, Palace and Bournemouth showed zero ambition and Lens decided to go for it (though as I said to someone earlier even with the players we had on the pitch, out of position if we’d just continue to soak up the pressure rather than try and play on the front foot with zero space to operate in…we’d have torn them to pieces like wet tissue)

[Marc Overmars]

My main gripe with Arteta is his weird lack of ability to react to things in game. It doesn’t matter how things are playing out I feel like the changes he makes are already pre-programmed. The lack of flexibility will prevent him from being considered an elite coach. Though because of his links with Pep and general reputation in the game he’ll still probably land on his feet whenever his career takes him.

I think he has definitely earned the right to see this out. It’s difficult to justify removing a coach who has overseen quite a significant transformation of the club and team itself. Let’s not forget how fucking awful it was in the dying days of Wenger and the years that followed. You only have to look at the posts here to see how much apathy there was.

Ultimately, we don’t have an Abramovich style owner so we’re never going to be a club who won’t accept not winning. So whoever the coach is, will most likely be given all the time they need until something goes disastrously wrong. I do think the expectation to succeed is fair though now, 4 years is a long time and with the money we’ve spent in recent seasons a league title is definitely something that should feel within reach.

[Letters]

When your opinion is a) based on a far smaller evidentiary base
Your far larger "evidentiary base" has led you to basically get every prediction wrong so far this season. Forgive me if I don't have much confidence in your 20:20 foresight.


utterly dismissive of the opinions of others
Which I haven't been. I've repeatedly acknowledged there are some concerns this season. Performances haven't been great. Some of Arteta's decisions have been suspect.
What I find silly is this thread firing up again after every bad result.
You're the one being dismissive with your "you don't even watch the games". I've always found that sort of fan snobbishness ridiculous. I had a season ticket from 90-91 up till around 2012 and I never considered myself "better" than other fans who weren't able to watch games or having more of a right to an opinion than others.


Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” and “we have no guarantees of getting someone better”.
Wrong and correct respectively. The latter is true - changing manager is by definition a disruptive thing. Doing that to a team which just finished in their best position since 2016 and have, overall, started this season well would be madness in my opinion. Obviously it depends how we do this season. If we don't even finish Top 4 then it's a different conversation given how we did last year and how much money we've spent.
With regard to the former, my position is not that "it ain't broke", I dispute whether we know whether it's broke yet.
Last season we massively overperformed given pre-season expectations. We're less than a 20% of the way into the season, that isn't enough to tell you much. If we'd lost every game so far then OK, I'd agree that was a pretty good indication that all is not well. Everton, I think we can agree, are not going to be champions this year. It's far too early to tell much about our long term prospects. I completely disagree that "there’s probably been enough games played now to get an idea of where we are likely to be."

We'd scored 2 more goals at this stage last year. I'm not convinced that's enough of a difference to be significant.
We've actually conceded one fewer than last year at this stage. And we have only one less point.
While we're here, Spurs started the season with P7 W5 D2 L0 last year and were 2nd, level with City and 1 point behind us.
Was that enough games to indicate where they were "likely to be"?

I take the point about performances but seasons are long. Feelings change. They change from game to game. After the Bournemouth game I was pretty upbeat. The CL game pissed me off. If we lose to City, as I fear we will, then that will be a big indication that things aren't going to go well this season. Which may sound like a bit of a contradiction to my above thought that you can only really tell long term, but games like this are big tests of where you are as a club. These are the games we have to be standing up in, if we don't again then I don't know if I'll hop on the Arteta Out bandwagon but it will set the alarm bells ringing loudly.


I don’t think it’s crazy at all to believe that Arteta has peaked in what he’s able to achieve for us, and that a club of ambition should at the very least have an eye on an upgrade.
I don't think any of that is crazy. I just think it's too early to say definitively that we've gone backwards. I mean, we could go top at the weekend. Or it could be another failure to stand up in a big 6 pointer. I do fear the latter but the game hasn't happened yet. Just quit straw-manning me.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Only game we've lost all season, a point off the top of the table after a good 4-0 away win and Arteta out? :lol:

You lot are silly!

I don’t think this is me straw manning you, I think this is where I’m pointing to and saying…maybe given you don’t watch Arsenal play live, it’s a little bit much for you to be so dismissive.

Your recent post suggested I’m saying you should agree with me. No like I say I appreciate that there’s an argument for caution. But saying you lot are silly? especially when no one has stated “we must sack him now” - rather stating how games like last night exemplify the grave misgivings they have of this coach. I think calling people silly seemed silly in its dismissive attitude, and conveyed a sense to me of the “this is fine” meme dog.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Claiming I’m being snobbish by saying “you’re not watching the games” is utterly absurd. I know nothing about your life or your social/work commitments to know whether you avoiding watching the games is a choice or there simply isn’t the time for you to sit down and watch them either live or find somewhere that shows the whole match afterwards. It’s no reflection, I don’t hold with this childish “you’re not as much as a fan than me” bollocks.

It’s just a statement of fact, that by watching the highlights you’re not getting the full picture. I’m not saying at all that if you watched the full match you’d change your mind (in fact I’d say that’s highly unlikely as your argument is far less determined by performances) but maybe your dismissiveness might carry a bit more weight than it does currently.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also to pick up on other arguments you made

Our overall goal scoring this season in the league has been padded out with a lot of penalties. Now as you know, not every penalty that gets awarded stems from the denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity, in fact I’d argue that possibly one of the five penalties we’ve been awarded this season would have resulted in a goal had the player not made the foul (and that was the one at palace) but in fairness that’s speculative. But when almost 40% of your league goals are reliant on refereeing decisions that does provide pause for contemplation.

And also you disagree that ten games can give you a fairly good idea of how a season will go? Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?. I’d have to go back to the 01/02 title winning season where like now our performances at home are decidedly ropey (even worse given we only won once in our first five league games at Highbury) although I’d say that the performances were good even if the results were not and you could see scope for improvement.

[selassie]

My main gripe with Arteta is his weird lack of ability to react to things in game. It doesn’t matter how things are playing out I feel like the changes he makes are already pre-programmed. The lack of flexibility will prevent him from being considered an elite coach. Though because of his links with Pep and general reputation in the game he’ll still probably land on his feet whenever his career takes him.

I think he has definitely earned the right to see this out. It’s difficult to justify removing a coach who has overseen quite a significant transformation of the club and team itself. Let’s not forget how fucking awful it was in the dying days of Wenger and the years that followed. You only have to look at the posts here to see how much apathy there was.

Ultimately, we don’t have an Abramovich style owner so we’re never going to be a club who won’t accept not winning. So whoever the coach is, will most likely be given all the time they need until something goes disastrously wrong. I do think the expectation to succeed is fair though now, 4 years is a long time and with the money we’ve spent in recent seasons a league title is definitely something that should feel within reach.

I think Arteta is a decent to very good modern manager but he has plenty of faults. I think he has done very well up until now and reshaped the team / squad well albeit with pretty much an open chequebook.

The end of last season and the performances this season have raised a lot of questions about Arteta and the team in general. Whilst Arteta should be given time, he should also be judged on a results and performance basis, because he pretty much has the squad he wants now. He spent a lot of money in the summer and has arguably made us worse, at least that's how it looks right now.

I am prepared to give him time, but I do have big expectations of this team and expect a top 2 finish in PL and a domestic trophy in one of the cups. Given the spend and the quality of players we have I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

[Letters]

I don’t think this is me straw manning you

These are the straw mans:


Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”

I didn't say that, I've been very clear about my stance.


If your attitude is “oh we will probably lose to city at the weekend but never mind, we are better off than where we were three years ago”

Completely made up, and I've just said that yet another loss to City would be concerning.


If you don’t watch the games and are just comfortable with a top four finish, then yeah there’s nothing to be concerned about.

Also completely made up.

I've also clarified what is silly - bumping this thread after every bad result. If it was a bad run of results well OK, that would be different.


Claiming I’m being snobbish by saying “you’re not watching the games” is utterly absurd.
It's not that in itself, it's the implication that because I don't watch the games my opinions are invalid, or less valid. Fine, I'd accept I'm not getting the full picture by only watching highlights, but you do watch games and your predictions have not exactly been spot on so far. You accuse me of being dismissive - even though I've agreed with many of you concerns, including the one about goal-scoring. It feels to me you are being dismissive of me because I don't watch as avidly as you these days so I don't get a right to an option.
(For the record, I stopped going because of a combination of dad's health declining, it getting horribly expensive and getting married and thus having different priorities. I don't watch much these days because my general interest in football has declined. Partly I guess because Arsenal aren't the force we were, partly because of a general ennui with the modern game where trophies are bought up left right and centre, the modern players are mostly unlikeable fannies and now we've got VAR buggering things up)

As for this:


And also you disagree that ten games can give you a fairly good idea of how a season will go? Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?
Before things got really crap under Wenger we went through a whole sequence of seasons where we'd either
1) Start like a train, look like potential title contenders and then fall apart and just about limp into the top 4.
2) Start really poorly, everyone would run around screaming, say we were going to end up in mid table or worse and then we'd go on this ridiculous run and just about haul ourselves into the top 4.

Again, I'm not disputing performances have been patchy, but results have not which is the main thing early season. What is this false negative? We're a point off the top of the table.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I like how you’ve ignored that all these things you’ve quoted contain qualifiers like If, so rather than actually asserting “that’s what you believe” I’m actually saying if that’s what you believe, and you’ve clarified that you don’t so claiming that I’m straw manning you is simply a case of your perception. In fact the nearest I’ve come is saying “it seems that” which is not me asserting you believe this or that, this is me saying this is how it’s coming across. And again you’ve clarified that this is not the case.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Crikey, hauling ourselves into the top 4 is not a measure of a good season. It was a sign that we were treading water. Now in hindsight you can argue that Wenger actually did very well in getting us top 4 because of the restrictions on finances and on the whole (far more than I admittedly was at the time) I’m wholly sympathetic to that view.

I’m saying our ambition is no longer limited. In fact because of FFP, the only advantage the kleptocrat owned clubs have over us is that they got a good head start on us. But as I’ve said Haaland aside, City’s best players are ageing…they simply can’t take the piss by splashing out to replace like for like. That over time creates a more and more level playing field. The excuse of the “well can you be surprised when they can just buy themselves a whole team” doesn’t wash, look at Chelsea’s spending it’s done by implementing mammoth long contracts and by signing prospects rather than top quality players.

I can’t be clearer than I’ve been, this is our time. Arguably not just our time to compete but potentially to dominate. We have a pathway opening up to us due to changing circumstances but its not an opportunity that will last forever, the best players in our squad will start getting older whilst we play it safe not wanting to upset what we think we’ve already achieved.

With a top coach we absolutely could not only win the league but retain it for the first time since the 1930s, and finally announce our arrival as one of the top clubs in Europe by winning the champions league. We cannot do this by handwringing and saying “well I don’t want to rock the boat, he did finish 2nd with us and he deserves a chance to push us on”

He deserves this season and even that shouldn’t be guaranteed. I don’t see why even finishing 2nd this season should buy him anymore time unless it’s a result of another gigantic points haul from City. And what if City aren’t title winners? What if Liverpool manage to win it….does finishing second or third become just as acceptable then.

For this club to reach its true potential, requires being bold and it’s not for the faint hearted. And if a coach is a barrier to that progress, there shouldn’t be hesitation about dispensing with that coach

[Letters]

I like how you’ve ignored that all these things you’ve quoted contain qualifiers like If
But why say it at all? Just saying "If you think that...", it kinda implies you believe I might think that. I don't think I've said anything which does imply those things.


Crikey, hauling ourselves into the top 4 is not a measure of a good season.
In today's episode of "things Letters didn't say"...
Your question was "name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started".
There are multiple seasons where that happened. And others when the reverse happened. There were a few seasons where our form was very patchy early season and people on here ranted about how we were going to finish mid-table, the more hysterical people suggested we could go down. Weren't you here then? If so you surely remember all that whining. And we ended up Top 4. You could consider that the bare minimum, but that's a separate discussion. So yes, unless the early season results are really catastrophic, and ours haven't been, they're not that indicative of where you'll end up. It's widely acknowledged that Christmas is the first important milestone in a season, that's when the table really takes shape. I said elsewhere that years ago papers didn't even publish tables this early in a season as it was all a bit meaningless.


I’m saying our ambition is no longer limited.
And I wouldn't disagree. We were genuine contenders last season, contrary to everyone's expectations. We've invested heavily in the summer (arguably not well, but the board have certainly backed Arteta). That puts the pressure on to deliver. All I'm saying is it's too early to say how that's going to work out.
I'm not disagreeing there are some warning signs that all is not well.
I'm sceptical that FFP has much teeth. But what is certainly true is our spending power is much higher than it was which puts us on or close to a level playing field with the other usual suspects.


I can’t be clearer than I’ve been, this is our time. Arguably not just our time to compete but potentially to dominate.
I don't really agree. The way I see it we now have more clubs who can spend big, not less. I think the top 4 could get more competitive. I said above that our spending power now puts us on a level playing field, but I do also think there are more clubs on that field. City are having their moment in the sun, those periods of dominance don't last forever but I don't think it's clear that we are their natural successors. We're certainly one of the clubs who could be, but there are others.


He deserves this season and even that shouldn’t be guaranteed. I don’t see why even finishing 2nd this season should buy him anymore time unless it’s a result of another gigantic points haul from City. And what if City aren’t title winners? What if Liverpool manage to win it….does finishing second or third become just as acceptable then.
I think what's acceptable is a good question, although I do raise an eyebrow at people who seem to think of Arsenal like dining in a fine restaurant and if the food and service isn't absolutely amazing then they should have a paddy about it being completely unacceptable. Football is a highly competitive sport where everyone else is trying to spoil your meal, to continue the (not very good) analogy. There are multiple clubs who are able to spend big, we are not uniquely placed to dominate


And if a coach is a barrier to that progress, there shouldn’t be hesitation about dispensing with that coach
Well sure. But I don't believe it's currently clear that Arteta is that barrier.
And it's equally unclear that another manager would facilitate or enable progress. The fact said coach did so elsewhere is no guarantee that he (or she ;)) would with us.
As discussed, I am a bit risk adverse. I admit that. But I would note that when Wenger left things did initially get worse before they got better. People can look back with 20:20 hindsight and say it was inevitable because he left us in such a mess. But the rhetoric on here at the time was that Wenger was such a bumbling idiot that anyone would come in and do better. That's not what happened. Replacing Conte worked at Spurs because the relationship between the squad and manager had broken down and the result was a massive underperformance from them. In that situation replacing the manager was a clear decision. But that isn't the situation at Arsenal so the decision to replace Arteta is much less clear to me.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think you’re being a bit obtuse here, the point being made isn’t that we will finish mid table but that top four in of itself is no longer acceptable as a minimum target. And to say it’s too soon to suggest whether we will achieve more than that is wide of the mark. Likely we will finish in the top four, but not make a sustained title challenge.

The point is, you’re not being clear what you do think is acceptable. Because it feels for me like you’re saying you do have the ambition but then you’re kind of getting a bit “now hold on a second” when it’s suggested that there are ways for us to reach it.

For the reasons I’ve suggested I think it is our time, Newcastle it’s going to be a few years before they are ready to challenge, City could well have peaked, United and Chelsea are in a complete and utter mess…which leaves Liverpool who have a far better coach than us but I think we have greater spending power than they do.


My suggestion is we take advantage and look and be open towards getting an improvement on Arteta. And if you don’t think it’s clear that he is a barrier and that last season was his high water mark…I’d say the burden is on you to suggest why that might not be the case. And “well we don’t know yet” is simply not a response worthy of any serious consideration, especially when you have condemned people for being silly for stating that he can’t take us further.

[WMUG]

. Why it’s taken him so long to win the champions league with City and why he never succeeded in doing so with Barcelona.

Minor correction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_UEFA_Champions_League_final

[Mac76]

Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?. I’d have to go back to the 01/02 title winning season where like now our performances at home are decidedly ropey (even worse given we only won once in our first five league games at Highbury) although I’d say that the performances were good even if the results were not and you could see scope for improvement.

The 2020/21 season was a pretty poor start, losing five games and drawing another

[Mac76]

If Arteta doesn’t rate you, it’s very hard almost impossible to change his mind, and if you’re not worthy of playing in his team you’re not worthy of his time. You’ll see that a lot of people who left simply stated that they never even had a single conversation with Arteta between the time they joined and the time they left.



This is one of his key failings along with the inability to change games tactically once the first whistle has gone

[HCZ_Reborn]

Minor correction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_UEFA_Champions_League_final

He won two with Barcelona. That was a brain fart, I meant to say Bayern Munich

[HCZ_Reborn]

The 2020/21 season was a pretty poor start, losing five games and drawing another

And do you regard finishing 8th as a successful season ?

[Letters]

the point being made isn’t that we will finish mid table
I know it isn't. Are you just deliberately trying to misunderstand me? The only time I mentioned mid-table was when I was talking about past seasons when people on here said we were going to finish mid-table or worse, based on poor starts to the season, and we didn't. I did so to evidence that early season form doesn't indicate where you'll end up. That said, while you can't win the title in the first 10 games you can certainly lose it. A catastrophic start would have all but ruled us out already, but we haven't had one. We're a point off the top.


And to say it’s too soon to suggest whether we will achieve more than that is wide of the mark. Likely we will finish in the top four, but not make a sustained title challenge.
Your confidence in that prediction is bewildering given your record of predictions this season and the past evidence I've presented.
Again, if we'd lost a bunch of games already then you could probably rule us out already, but we haven't. We're a point off the top.
I do think if City beat us it will mean you're likely to be correct though.


The point is, you’re not being clear what you do think is acceptable. Because it feels for me like you’re saying you do have the ambition but then you’re kind of getting a bit “now hold on a second” when it’s suggested that there are ways for us to reach it.
Well there's two things here. I'm not as convinced as you are that what you're suggesting is the way to reach it. I have explained why. You may disagree, well OK. We're both talking in hypotheticals.
And secondly I find it difficult to articulate what is acceptable. My general feeling is I want us to continue to make progress, while recognising that no team ever gets better year on year forever. We have strengthened over the summer but we have the demands of the CL this year which we didn't last. And we don't exist in a vacuum. If City and Liverpool have, for them, poor seasons and we don't capitalise and win the title then that will be more damning than if they both go mental, get 95+ points and we finish 3rd.


For the reasons I’ve suggested I think it is our time
Yes. But I don't agree. It's certainly not as clear as you suggest. So I'm not convinced there's anything to take advantage of.


And if you don’t think it’s clear that he is a barrier and that last season was his high water mark…I’d say the burden is on you to suggest why that might not be the case. And “well we don’t know yet” is simply not a response worthy of any serious consideration
What other response can there be? The season isn't finished. Your confidence in your foresight is baffling given your predictions so far and their outcomes.


especially when you have condemned people for being silly for stating that he can’t take us further.
Another point I have clarified and you have ignored. What I said was silly is this thread starting up again after one bad result. If there'd been a run of bad results then ok, but there hasn't been.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I know it isn't. Are you just deliberately trying to misunderstand me? The only time I mentioned mid-table was when I was talking about past seasons when people on here said we were going to finish mid-table or worse, based on poor starts to the season, and we didn't. I did so to evidence that early season form doesn't indicate where you'll end up. That said, while you can't win the title in the first 10 games you can certainly lose it. A catastrophic start would have all but ruled us out already, but we haven't had one. We're a point off the top.


Your confidence in that prediction is bewildering given your record of predictions this season and the past evidence I've presented.
Again, if we'd lost a bunch of games already then you could probably rule us out already, but we haven't. We're a point off the top.
I do think if City beat us it will mean you're likely to be correct though.


Well there's two things here. I'm not as convinced as you are that what you're suggesting is the way to reach it. I have explained why. You may disagree, well OK. We're both talking in hypotheticals.
And secondly I find it difficult to articulate what is acceptable. My general feeling is I want us to continue to make progress, while recognising that no team ever gets better year on year forever. We have strengthened over the summer but we have the demands of the CL this year which we didn't last. And we don't exist in a vacuum. If City and Liverpool have, for them, poor seasons and we don't capitalise and win the title then that will be more damning than if they both go mental, get 95+ points and we finish 3rd.


Yes. But I don't agree. It's certainly not as clear as you suggest. So I'm not convinced there's anything to take advantage of.


What other response can there be? The season isn't finished. Your confidence in your foresight is baffling given your predictions so far and their outcomes.


Another point I have clarified and you have ignored. What I said was silly is this thread starting up again after one bad result. If there'd been a run of bad results then ok, but there hasn't been.



You understand the meaning of the quote misattributed to Einstein “the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. The posts you referred to as silly earmarked the lessons Arteta seems to refuse to learn. The mistakes that are made that are so blindingly obvious that even a bunch of argumentative Middle Aged cunts on a football forum can see them.

And it’s not that Arteta is stupid (although I’m minded to think he’s definitely not as clever as he thinks he is) but he’s stubborn…and believes that he can make what does not work, work with persistence. And when you have that attitude you become blind to the obvious and enter a mindset of escalation of commitment.

You yourself already think we will lose to City at the weekend, and if you’re correct…that’s not just a one off setback, it’s a continuation of whats been going on for ages (I defy you to find me any team that has lost 12 times in a row in the league to city let alone 13) and it suggests we are no further forward than we are before. So yes sometimes one defeat is more than a single defeat, it essentially symbolises what is going wrong.

Defeat in itself is not a disaster, if you can trust that we can learn from it and adapt…but I don’t see evidence of that, and neither do the other people who posted here. What we saw on Tuesday was something that’s been on the cards for some considerable time.

You talk as if people were happy and content before the lens game and suddenly became agitated. No…we could have won every game this season and I’d still not be happy because the performances are not conducive to success and experience tells me that you can only play in a mediocre way for so long before it catches up with you.

Last season we had a small blip in October/November time (drawing with Southampton and losing to PSV) and the games before hand indicated that we weren’t playing well but were grinding out wins. Ultimately the big win at home to Forest got us going somewhat again.

This season we’ve had one decent performance one….and it’s not a surprise…we played a team that was massively too open and we took them apart (PSV). Other than that it’s been laboured, toothless and at times directionless. And my point is if you cared to watch games in their entirety, whilst i doubt it would change your mind on the topic it might give you a degree of understanding as to where people are coming from even if you differ with them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What other response can there be?

I don’t think this guy is a good enough coach to get us where we want to be. He’s far too arrogant and single minded, he doubles down, he falls out with players on a whim meaning they are very publicly discarded and then it becomes hard to attain anything for them by way of transfer recoup.

I think if Arsenal are to meet their potential, and do everything in their power to get a league title in the next few years it will mean moving on the current manager probably no later than the end of the season. I don’t want him spending any more of the club’s money on pet project players that he seems unable to get the best out of.


That’s the other response.

That’s the response I have now, that’s the response I’m certain I will have in May barring a miracle.

[HCZ_Reborn]

And what is that miracle? By which I’d say I was wrong and Arteta deserves to be here after this season. Either winning the title (or being competitive right up to the last game of the season) or making it to at least the semi finals of the Champions league. The money we spent I feel demands no less

[WMUG]

Interesting discussion and a lot I agree with from both of you.

HCZ, just for clarity, are you saying that Arteta should be sacked if we don't achieve one of these?


Either winning the title (or being competitive right up to the last game of the season) or making it to at least the semi finals of the Champions league.

And Letters, do you have any solid criteria which you'd expect us to meet or Arteta should go?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Interesting discussion and a lot I agree with from both of you.

HCZ, just for clarity, are you saying that Arteta should be sacked if we don't achieve one of these?



And Letters, do you have any solid criteria which you'd expect us to meet or Arteta should go?


Yes

And If you think that’s harsh, I point you towards the money that has been spent since 2020.

And the money we spent in the summer should have been enough to push us forward from last season

And given I don’t think he will meet those expectations we should be going all out to have someone ready to sign an agreement with us as soon as he goes. No messing around hunting for a new coach after we’ve got rid

[Letters]

Interesting discussion and a lot I agree with from both of you.
What a bloody awful sentence :lol:


And Letters, do you have any solid criteria which you'd expect us to meet or Arteta should go?
I think if we fall out of the top 4 after last season and how we've spent then definitely Arteta Out.
It's not the title or bust for me though. I want to see us standing up in games like Sunday. And as I said above, it depends on how other teams do.

[WMUG]

I do words goodest <_<

[HCZ_Reborn]

As I say the only thing I take exception to, is the idea that thinking that Arteta is holding us back, is silly because we’ve only lost one game. Again it’s not the issue of how many games we’ve lost, it’s the fact that the loss was wholly unnecessary and down to Arteta picking the wrong players and wrong tactics.

[Letters]

As I say the only thing I take exception to, is the idea that thinking that Arteta is holding us back, is silly because we’ve only lost one game.
Once more for the cheap seats - what I find silly is this thread starting up again after one poor result.
But I would note that your dislike of Arteta seems weirdly personal, to me it seems to rob you of objectivity.

[Letters]

And do you regard finishing 8th as a successful season ?

I don't think that's the point Mac was making.
But that season is a pretty good example of what I've been talking about.
The first half of the season was probably the worst I've seen since 92/93 - On Christmas Day it was P14 W4 D2 L8. Ouch!
We were 4 points off relegation. The rhetoric after the Everton game which was the last of those games before Christmas was very much that relegation was a possibility and there were questions about whether that lot were up for the fight. Frankly, Arteta should have been sacked after that run. The Chelsea game probably saved his job and the run of results after that was pretty decent.
The end result was 8th place, 6 points off top 4. Is that a successful season by our standards? Clearly not. But neither was it the relegation scrap that some on here had started to fear.

So the point remains - results to date neither place us as Champions Elect nor do they indicate we've got no chance. It's too early. It's possible to think that and also agree there are concerns, ones which will be exacerbated if we lose this weekend.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Once more for the cheap seats - what I find silly is this thread starting up again after one poor result.
But I would note that your dislike of Arteta seems weirdly personal, to me it seems to rob you of objectivity.

And as I’ve pointed out to you, it’s not about one result…it’s about how that result sharpens the idea that ultimately Arteta is more singularly responsible for defeats than his players are.

I don’t like Arteta at all, in interviews I find him condescending, passive aggressive and the kind of person who I’d think was a massive prick if I knew them in real life

And yeah that can inform some of the hyperbolic rants


But ultimately, none of that would be relevant if I thought he was doing a good job. I’m not ranting about him here…I think he’s had enough time and money to prove himself, to iron out his deficiencies and make sensible signings but after almost four years it’s hard for me to conclude that he will change his ways sufficiently to get us where I think we should be

[HCZ_Reborn]

The point I made was, when is the last time we had a bad or indifferent start and then went on to have a successful season. A successful season isn’t finishing 8th, it isn’t dragging our way into 4th…it’s winning things or being competitive to the end.

As I said the last time that happened was 22 years ago. It’s not a frequent thing…therefore I don’t think it’s silly to argue that a poor/indifferent start indicates a season that probably won’t be a success.

[Letters]

How is that relevant? We haven't had an indifferent start.

[HCZ_Reborn]

How is that relevant? We haven't had an indifferent start.

And the reason you’re saying that is because you’re watching the highlights not the whole game. You think it’s an insult/snobbery but it’s not…it’s saying you’re calling other people silly because we are just about getting over the line in mostly easy fixtures and oh it’s just one defeat when our limitations get exposed by a side that showed a bit more ambition than others we’ve played.

I think indifferent is actually me being charitable, drawing with Fulham, having our pants pulled down by Tottenham (who managed to beat Liverpool with match official incompetence) and losing to a side that is 15th in the French league is indicative of a poor start. City are in front of us despite losing to Wolves and despite having harder matches on the whole (like away at an in form West Ham side)….we’ve ground out away results to palace and Everton, and had a result against Bournemouth that flatters us due to the award of two penalties)

We’ve had I repeat one good performance all season…in 11 games.

Last season at this point, there were a few performances that were no better than ok, but no real poor performances and there were excellent ones like away at Brentford (the best I’ve seen us play in years) and at home to Spurs.

Last season, our start was a case of setting the standard to where it should be, and this season….no where near that

[Letters]

The reason I'm saying it is the league table.

[HCZ_Reborn]

But I’ll tell you what, If we get four points from City and Chelsea and also beat Sevilla and raise our overall level…I’ll be happy to say I’ve been precipitous.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The reason I'm saying it is the league table.

The league table after 7 games doesn’t tell you who you’ve played.

You can of course only beat who is in front of you, but we failed to do that twice in seven games…both very winnable games against london opposition (which we took apart at the joints last season)

Honestly this is getting us nowhere. Go back, watch the games in full and then tell me or anyone else that we are being silly. Because then you’ll have the full picture on which to base that assertion.

[Letters]

Watching the games wouldn’t tell me anything I don’t know.
Performances have been patchy. We aren’t creating enough chances.
If that continues then we aren’t going to keep winning, and the number of goals we concede at home is frankly ridiculous. Arteta is playing people in weird positions and he’s run Saka in to the ground.
I’m not disputing any of that.

But I’ve been following football for long enough that I know that form can change during a season, there are ups and downs in every season. I don’t accept that the patchy performances so far are definite proof of anything. We’re in touch, that’s all you need to be for the first half of the season. The title is won in the run in. I wouldn’t put my money on us being champions right now, but neither would I write us off. There’s too much football to be played

[HCZ_Reborn]

Watching the games wouldn’t tell me anything I don’t know.
Performances have been patchy. We aren’t creating enough chances.
If that continues then we aren’t going to keep winning, and the number of goals we concede at home is frankly ridiculous. Arteta is playing people in weird positions and he’s run Saka in to the ground.
I’m not disputing any of that.

But I’ve been following football for long enough that I know that form can change during a season, there are ups and downs in every season. I don’t accept that the patchy performances so far are definite proof of anything. We’re in touch, that’s all you need to be for the first half of the season. The title is won in the run in. I wouldn’t put my money on us being champions right now, but neither would I write us off. There’s too much football to be played


As not just me but I’m sure many people have pointed out in one way or another, it’s not about poor form. It’s about a system being used by the coach that is not working.

You speak about the patchy performances, lack of chance creation as if it’s a complete mystery how it’s come about. It isn’t…

It’s not form that needs to change, it’s the way we are set up. Almost four years of Arteta should tell you that two things cause him to change - player injury or a multitude of defeats that it’s taken to get him to understand that no matter how many times you insist a large square can get through a small circular hole…it can’t.

Guardiola is the same, I don’t think the system he plays is particularly conducive to the best outcome but he has spectacular ball players all over his team, players that will attack but will also drop deep to receive the ball. We don’t…Arteta tried playing Odegaard in central midfield and it’s been a disaster, same with Smith Rowe, same with Vieira, same with Havertz.

Odegaard is a very good player but his position is in the hole, not on the right side of an attacking midfield two.

Martinelli before he was injured was isolated because he doesn’t come and get the ball deep, and last season got possession as a result of give and go’s with Xhaka and to a lesser extent Zinchenko. Now? He’s waiting on Havertz to find him…and you will see when Havertz plays that significantly fewer attacks come down the left hand side, which makes Saka our primary attacking outlet and makes us even more toothless when he has to come off injured.

This isn’t a bug, it’s a feature of the system Arteta is playing. If you play something for two or three games and it’s not working ok you can maybe give it time. But 11 games in, it’s not working and you can tell it simply cannot work because we don’t have the same players Man City do to emulate their style.

Rice is not Rodri, Vieira is not Bernardo Silva, Odegaard is not De Bruyne etc

Arteta as I say isn’t stupid, but he is extremely stubborn. You tell him he can’t walk on water, and he will spend all day climbing out of his swimming pool as a result of an act of failed defiance and preparing to go in again because this time he will get it right

[HCZ_Reborn]

But I’ll tell you what, If we get four points from City and Chelsea and also beat Sevilla and raise our overall level…I’ll be happy to say I’ve been precipitous.

Almost there Letters, two down one to go in the triumvirate :lol:

It’s fair to say I’d have absolutely taken four points from city and Chelsea games all day long.

Not sure today counts as raising our overall level though. That said you can’t knock coming back from 2-0 down

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Almost there Letters, two down one to go in the triumvirate :lol:

It’s fair to say I’d have absolutely taken four points from city and Chelsea games all day long.

Not sure today counts as raising our overall level though. That said you can’t knock coming back from 2-0 down

IMO it's pointless beating City and drawing to such a rubbish side like Chelsea due to a clear lack of motivation, which clearly is the coach's job....but hey, that's my opinion.

[Marc Overmars]

Not looking good for you and Raya, Mikel…

[HCZ_Reborn]

IMO it's pointless beating City and drawing to such a rubbish side like Chelsea due to a clear lack of motivation, which clearly is the coach's job....but hey, that's my opinion.

Don’t get me wrong, everything Arteta got right two weeks ago he got wrong today, but the players despite a rather wretched performance got a draw which I’d have taken at the beginning. Stamford Bridge has long been a tricky venue for us and to be unbeaten in five matches there is pretty decent.

It’s not that these results have suddenly changed my view on Arteta’s shortcomings but I’m not going to lie, they are results that I in no way was expecting us to get given how we’ve been playing at times (I thought before a fortnight ago we’d lose to city and Chelsea). I think as Chelsea grow in confidence they are going to be a tough team to beat…I think they are still ropey defensively and have very little up front but they have in personnel probably one of the strongest squad of midfielders in the league arguably.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Not looking good for you and Raya, Mikel…

Fucking Raya

[Letters]

Almost there Letters, two down one to go in the triumvirate :lol:
Arteta :bow:


It’s fair to say I’d have absolutely taken four points from city and Chelsea games all day long.
I would too but we were a bit lucky against City and yesterday pissed me off a bit.
As per I didn’t watch, and I guess if you’re 2-0 down away from home with 15 minutes left then a point is a good outcome. But it sounds like the performance was a mess (that didn’t come across in the highlights). And I do not understand Arteta’s boner for Raya who is not an upgrade on Ramsdale. Although the latter is probably on parental leave so possible he would have played yesterday otherwise.

Overall I’d say your concerns remain valid. But I do also think that up till Christmas you just have to hang in there and stay in the race. The real work starts after that in terms of a title challenge. So far we are doing our bit and that’s mostly what I care about.

This difficult run of games was said to be a test of our credentials and I’d say we’ve pretty much passed the test. Maybe not with flying colours but we’re still up there. Concerns remain about our ability to last the course but there hasn’t been a standout team yet. We are in the mix which is all you can ask at this stage.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Raya’s continued selection is astounding.

I don’t buy into the idea that it’s a result of some personal falling out with Ramsdale (although I will say that I haven’t seen anyone on here speculating about that). My understanding is that it’s about some stats about us conceding goals and shots on target…essentially bemoaning that Ramsdale isn’t making more saves. However like with all stats it’s quite misleading as it essentially suggests that all shots on target are saveable. There are times of course where we say Ramsdale could have done better there, but actually I do wonder because a lot of these are thunderbolt shots which he’s got a glove to but hasn’t managed to keep out.

Ramsdale has not ever produced the amount of gaffs that Raya has in the space of games he’s played. Raya has been at fault for at least three goals…the first Son goal for Spurs, the Thomasaon goal from his poor kick out that gave the ball straight to Lens and of course the Mudryk goal.

That and the bed shitting performance against Man City in the first half that we were extremely lucky not to be punished for.

Literally the best thing you can say for him is well could be worse, could be Onana

[Mac76]

Agree, I don't see it as another sign of Arteta's personality failings, though there may a bit of him that dislikes Ram for whatever reason

I think it''s more that he has just decided he doesn't trust Ram - I think things like giving away that early goal against Southampton last season didn't help - and he prefers how Raya plays

God knows if he'll realise he's wrong before Ram gets fed up and leaves - if I was Ram I'd want out in January, to go somewhere that makes me no. 1 and keeps me my England place

It's yet another time when we'll probably lose a very good player and play less well thanks to Arteta's myopia and stubbornness

[mandela8]

Agree, I don't see it as another sign of Arteta's personality failings, though there may a bit of him that dislikes Ram for whatever reason

I think it''s more that he has just decided he doesn't trust Ram - I think things like giving away that early goal against Southampton last season didn't help - and he prefers how Raya plays

God knows if he'll realise he's wrong before Ram gets fed up and leaves - if I was Ram I'd want out in January, to go somewhere that makes me no. 1 and keeps me my England place

It's yet another time when we'll probably lose a very good player and play less well thanks to Arteta's myopia and stubbornness

Raya is better than Ram for me, man. Not even based off performances though, tbh. I've been a fan of Ram since he arrived. Made no secret of that, but there's always been a lingering doubt over him for me. Raya has been a bit wild but overall just has that presence and for me, gut feel, that Ram doesn't.

That all said, there's certainly not enough in it to justify the change. Yet another example of Arteta finding issues where there aren't really any and ignoring far more glaring issues.

Viera, Kiwor, Ramsdale, Raya, Zinchenko, Rice.

All pretty unnecessary, relatively expensive, buys at the time, given the strength of the areas they were bought to 'improve'.

All whilst ignoring more glaring issues at RW and ST.

Even areas that desperately needed improving, like CM, he ballsed up with Havertz.

It's interesting to see that over the last few games the only outfield player who wasn't here last year is Rice, and he's not even been played in the position you expect he was bought for.

Edu and Arteta have a to answer for with the money they've spent.

Out of 24 players I'd say only Odegaard and Partey have no questions over them...Gabriel too, actually. There's at least doubt over the other 21, imo. A truly horrid record.

[Mac76]

They've signed 24 players together already?!

That's more than I thought - I'd like to see the full list

Off the top of my head, from those you've not mentioned, I'd say Tomi was a good buy, also while we've not seen much of him from his early performances Timber too - I also think Trossard was a good signing but one which Arteta undervalues because he wasn't a big-ticket fee, Jorg was a good buy also for the money

I do think Rice was a valuable addition which we needed to toughen up our midfield but obvs £100m is not a sum you can ever justify with any kind of sane logic

Zin has sent us backwards IMO, likewise Havertz

I think there's a good player in Vieira, just not sure weve worked out how to fit him in fully - partly Arteta's fault for giving players like him relatively little game time

[mandela8]

They've signed 24 players together already?!

That's more than I thought - I'd like to see the full list

Off the top of my head, from those you've not mentioned, I'd say Tomi was a good buy, also while we've not seen much of him from his early performances Timber too - I also think Trossard was a good signing but one which Arteta undervalues because he wasn't a big-ticket fee, Jorg was a good buy also for the money

I do think Rice was a valuable addition which we needed to toughen up our midfield but obvs £100m is not a sum you can ever justify with any kind of sane logic

Zin has sent us backwards IMO, likewise Havertz

I think there's a good player in Vieira, just not sure weve worked out how to fit him in fully - partly Arteta's fault for giving players like him relatively little game time

I agree with most of that but my point was it's very rarely the best use of the money.

I like Tommy but he's never played consistently. Timber clearly has doubts and with White/Tommy and Zin/Tierney/Kiwor at RB/LB just wasn't a priority for me. Not that I object as I'm not a fan of White or Zin.

Trossard should be a great signing but if you don't start...

I dot rate Jorginho, at all. Just a basic ball mover. That said, with Partey, Jorginho and Elneny there spend over 100m on Rice was just madness. A top striker should've been bought.

Agreed on Viera.

I just said there are doubts over 21, I don't think they're all bad.

[Mac76]

Rice is a different (and better) player to Jorg and Elneny (although I am a fan of both as utility players who are very professional) and given Partey's a crock, we really needed a player like that IMO

[The Dismantler]

Raya out!!!!

[mandela8]

Rice is a different (and better) player to Jorg and Elneny (although I am a fan of both as utility players who are very professional) and given Partey's a crock, we really needed a player like that IMO

Spending over 100m pounds for a player in a position with the depth of Partey, Jorginho and Elneny, when you have positions with the lack of depth (& quality) of Jesus/Nketiah, Saka, Zinchenko and Havertz is an outrageous waste of money. That's not an indictment of Rice, who is grossly overrated, just a simple fact, man.

That was categorically not the best way to improve the team, which was the point about them being questionable with money.

[Mac76]

Jesus is very good as long as he's played in the right position and formation, Saka as I've proved with stats (and you conceded) is a very impactful player with for us in terms of err, goals and assists

yes Zin and Havertz are shite though the answer there is don;t send Tierney out on loan and don't buy Havertz, buy somone else instead - we could have done both those things and still been able to afford Rice

as for "the depth of Partey, Jorginho and Elneny", Partey is basically always injured so can't be relied upon, yes Jorg is very good but not getting any younger and while I do like Elneny he's only got one job he can do - though he does it very well

[mandela8]

Jesus is very good as long as he's played in the right position and formation, Saka as I've proved with stats (and you conceded) is a very impactful player with for us in terms of err, goals and assists

yes Zin and Havertz are shite though the answer there is don;t send Tierney out on loan and don't buy Havertz, buy somone else instead - we could have done both those things and still been able to afford Rice

as for "the depth of Partey, Jorginho and Elneny", Partey is basically always injured so can't be relied upon, yes Jorg is very good but not getting any younger and while I do like Elneny he's only got one job he can do - though he does it very well

:haha:

But Jesus right position doesn't appear to be as a CF, which leaves Nketiah. THIS is where the money should've been spent.

As for conceding anything stat wise about Saka...you must have me confused with someone else. His goal scoring record is largely poor for a forward at a top club and I've less than zero time for any nonsense assist stat. It's a ridiculous piece of stupidity, man. Very, very rarely would I place extra value on that final pass compared the penultimate pass or many before that. It has no place in reasonable fitba discourse.

Agreed on the Zin and Havertz posts but the squad lacks a goalscorer. How anyone can justify Rice before that is beyond me, mate.

Partey, from what I can see with a very quick look and happy to be corrected, has missed around 45 games from a possible 165. So he's been available over 70% his tenure. Not really sure where "basically always" comes from, so I'll not try to debate in the absence of good faith.
I think Jorginho is fuckin wank and Elneny is worse, fwiw, but not really relevant. They do offer depth that is lacking in other positions, which was largely my point.

[Mac76]

:haha:

But Jesus right position doesn't appear to be as a CF, which leaves Nketiah. THIS is where the money should've been spent.

As for conceding anything stat wise about Saka...you must have me confused with someone else. His goal scoring record is largely poor for a forward at a top club and I've less than zero time for any nonsense assist stat. It's a ridiculous piece of stupidity, man. Very, very rarely would I place extra value on that final pass compared the penultimate pass or many before that. It has no place in reasonable fitba discourse.

Agreed on the Zin and Havertz posts but the squad lacks a goalscorer. How anyone can justify Rice before that is beyond me, mate.

Partey, from what I can see with a very quick look and happy to be corrected, has missed around 45 games from a possible 165. So he's been available over 70% his tenure. Not really sure where "basically always" comes from, so I'll not try to debate in the absence of good faith.
I think Jorginho is fuckin wank and Elneny is worse, fwiw, but not really relevant. They do offer depth that is lacking in other positions, which was largely my point.

but if you think Jorg and Elneny are crap how does that offer 'depth'? - if players aren't up to their positions then that is a recipe for failure - look at when Holding came in at the end of last season, the huge drop in quality from Saliba was one (but not the only) reason we fell away. OK, it's impossible to have another Saliba but Kiwior could - and eventually did - have done better and also Arteta should have re-organised to cover the weakness (if he was a manager who understands how to alter tactics in a game which of course Arteta largely doesn't)

But the point is if we say Holding was providing 'depth', it didn't serve much purpose

As for Saka, I can't be bothered to find the post but it was in reply to yet another assertion from you that Saka was 'crap' and i found the stat which showed that Saka was one or our highest goalscorers and you said something like 'aye fair point' or something

see this: https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/arsenal/2022-23/top-scorers.html

One goal behind Martinelli and Odegaard last season and that's not a bad tally for a creative winger - and you can't tell me assists don't count for anything, sure some are only technically an assist, but equally, look at his ball in to Trossard at the weekend - a superb delivery to set up a great chance which Trossard took very well and a lot of his assists are similarly picking out a player to provde a good chance


as for Partey what's his stat for say the last 12 months? i suspect it's more like 40-50% at best - again not good enough if he's an important player you're trying to rely on

but yes we desperately need a striker - we've all (apart from Arteta) been saying that for about a year now, it's nothing new

[mandela8]

but if you think Jorg and Elneny are crap how does that offer 'depth'? - if players aren't up to their positions then that is a recipe for failure - look at when Holding came in at the end of last season, the huge drop in quality from Saliba was one (but not the only) reason we fell away. OK, it's impossible to have another Saliba but Kiwior could - and eventually did - have done better and also Arteta should have re-organised to cover the weakness (if he was a manager who understands how to alter tactics in a game which of course Arteta largely doesn't)

But the point is if we say Holding was providing 'depth', it didn't serve much purpose

As for Saka, I can't be bothered to find the post but it was in reply to yet another assertion from you that Saka was 'crap' and i found the stat which showed that Saka was one or our highest goalscorers and you said something like 'aye fair point' or something

see this: https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/arsenal/2022-23/top-scorers.html

One goal behind Martinelli and Odegaard last season and that's not a bad tally for a creative winger - and you can't tell me assists don't count for anything, sure some are only technically an assist, but equally, look at his ball in to Trossard at the weekend - a superb delivery to set up a great chance which Trossard took very well and a lot of his assists are similarly picking out a player to provde a good chance


as for Partey what's his stat for say the last 12 months? i suspect it's more like 40-50% at best - again not good enough if he's an important player you're trying to rely on

but yes we desperately need a striker - we've all (apart from Arteta) been saying that for about a year now, it's nothing new

You found the stat? :haha

I know who are top scorers are, mate.

Less goals than Martinelli despite playing far more minutes and taking penalties. Regardless, his goal return was fine last season, but overall it has been poor...he's young though. My issue is more about the chances that die at his feet, tbh.

And, again, I find it difficult to articulate how utterly fuckin worthless the assist stat is to me.

I don't really see much point continuing the Rice debate. I'm long past trying to get people to change their minds on message boards. If you think spending over 100m on a DM, in that squad, was money well spent then I'll just tap out here. Watching the game anyway.

[The Wengerbabies]

Arteta has got me back into the game and that I am thankful for (I guess) but I really do have to start questioning him. We have nothing upfront, Havertz was a total waste of money and the problem he has totally manufactured in goal is ludicrous.

[selassie]

Arteta has got me back into the game and that I am thankful for (I guess) but I really do have to start questioning him. We have nothing upfront, Havertz was a total waste of money and the problem he has totally manufactured in goal is ludicrous.

Signing Havertz has completely unbalanced the Midfield. What makes it worse is if Ode is out we have next to no creativity in Midfield, we offer literally nothing as seen on Saturday.

We need to sort out a Centre forward too because whilst Eddie is decent at home against lesser teams he offers nothing when up against competitive teams, especially away from home. Jesus can't be considered first choice until he sorts out his injury problems.

[selassie]

I haven't posted on here in a while due to work committments etc, but I just wanted to come back and post and take back some of my words. Since the turn of the year in PL our results and form has been really special. Whatever happens this season I can't really fault Arteta or even the players for the perfomances and results they are delivering right now at this crucial point in the season.

I realise there is a way to go, but this team seems to be peaking at the right now, the quality, the organisation, the application, the fight, it's all their. Not only that but it's the first time since the peak "Wenger years" where I am starting to believe this team is capable of producing something very special.

Arteta is building something very special right before our eyes, this is no flash in the pan, he delivering a proper project and I certainly trust the process.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My opinion on Arteta is largely unchanged. I give him credit for using set pieces to address our inability to get past the deep block….but he lacks the ability to get us where we want to be. It’s not his tactical knowledge I doubt, it’s his personality. He doesn’t have one….hes about as easy to warm to as Mr Freeze.

I used to think he was scared of having players who might challenge his authority, but I think he’s totally indifferent….so totally convinced that he is right, that he wouldn’t be affronted by the challenge but neither would he stop to consider whether the person had a point.

He lacks empathy, and seems to have suggested that it’s just a case of players playing through pain rather than the risk this causes of long term injury (Saka, Saliba etc) he’s over coached this team to the point where they function like automatons and none of the players have the character to not buy into it and show a spark of individuality.


As we’ve repeatedly seen with Arteta, we go on these great runs which eventually and inevitably end up in tears because rotation is anathema to him and he plays the same group of players into the ground.

Now I say that being aware that based on our performances at the beginning of the season, I thought we were headed for disaster and clearly that hasn’t transpired and it probably won’t. It will end up with disappointment that we will all kind of accept because it’s better than we were a few years ago and it will take a few more years of the cycle repeating itself before we understand that this isn’t a bug it’s a feature of Arteta. But like with Wenger, the club won’t move him on because he’s doing just enough

[Marc Overmars]

I’m inclined to believe that it is a freak patch of form rather than a sign we’re about to become world beaters, however there’s no doubt we look mightily impressive right now compared to how stodgy things looked in the first half of the season.

I think we’re capable of winning the league now but being just very good isn’t enough anymore given what we’re competing against. Last season definitely taught us that things can change extremely quickly so I hope we use that experience well. Let’s see how we’re feeling after the Etihad trip.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So in summation, yes I want him gone….ive wanted him gone for over three years. I don’t think anything will change that given that I don’t think we will win the league or the European cup under him. Now that’s 50% bias, I immensely dislike him as a person. I think he’s passive aggressive, lacking in charm and unless I was getting paid the money these players are, I’d absolutely refuse to work with someone like him.

But equally, I’m not especially animated about it. Where I was wrong is that this is going to be far more a return to top 4 is a trophy days rather than utter spinning wildly out of control.


Of course it’s not just him, with FFP I don’t think anyone could overnight take this team to winning things. It’s just not good enough…especially up front and in midfield. Rice has had an excellent season, but he lacks the technical ability, pace or ability to retain possession under pressure that would truly make a midfielder world class. And really we need to jettison Partey and Jorginho and bring in at least one world class midfielder to play alongside Rice. But we can’t do that because of Arteta’s transfer indiscipline

[selassie]

I’m inclined to believe that it is a freak patch of form rather than a sign we’re about to become world beaters, however there’s no doubt we look mightily impressive right now compared to how stodgy things looked in the first half of the season.

I think we’re capable of winning the league now but being just very good isn’t enough anymore given what we’re competing against. Last season definitely taught us that things can change extremely quickly so I hope we use that experience well. Let’s see how we’re feeling after the Etihad trip.

I think the team is somewhere in between where we are this season and what we saw in spells last season. I don't personally think we are the best team in the league and personally think City will end up winning it.

I do now think we are legitimate title challengers, I have seen enough, not just with the football team, but with the work that is going on upstairs (Josh Kroenke, Edu and Vinay). The structure and organisation has been built to "win" or at least "challenge properly".

Arteta is not perfect, he has his faults, sometimes in team selection and sometimes in tactics, but we are heading in the right direction and I see no reason why the standards should or would suddenly slip.

[selassie]

So in summation, yes I want him gone….ive wanted him gone for over three years. I don’t think anything will change that given that I don’t think we will win the league or the European cup under him. Now that’s 50% bias, I immensely dislike him as a person. I think he’s passive aggressive, lacking in charm and unless I was getting paid the money these players are, I’d absolutely refuse to work with someone like him.

But equally, I’m not especially animated about it. Where I was wrong is that this is going to be far more a return to top 4 is a trophy days rather than utter spinning wildly out of control.


Of course it’s not just him, with FFP I don’t think anyone could overnight take this team to winning things. It’s just not good enough…especially up front and in midfield. Rice has had an excellent season, but he lacks the technical ability, pace or ability to retain possession under pressure that would truly make a midfielder world class. And really we need to jettison Partey and Jorginho and bring in at least one world class midfielder to play alongside Rice. But we can’t do that because of Arteta’s transfer indiscipline

HCZ, who would you like to come in and replace him? I assume in your eyes, his successor would win the trophies you think Arteta is not capable of winning?

[HCZ_Reborn]

HCZ, who would you like to come in and replace him? I assume in your eyes, his successor would win the trophies you think Arteta is not capable of winning?

Admittedly I don’t know, another reason why whilst I don’t want him here I tend to stay more quiet on the subject during times like these when just waiting for the other shoe to drop but at the same time enjoying decent results whilst I can.

I don’t think there is an obvious candidate, unlike in the latter years of Wenger where we could have been ruthless and brought in Klopp before Liverpool got him.

I more than accept that there isn’t this plethora of capable managers out there


I think it’s more that Arteta has had enough time and spent enough money, if he was going to win something big he’d have done it by now. Last season was a test and he failed it….now I’m sure a lot of coaches would have. But the difference between him and Klopp was you could see he had built something that meant he could pick up where he’d left off the previous season….i just don’t see that with Arteta.

And it’s not that I would be confident that a successor would be any better, it’s just a case of in my eyes…if someone after four years doesn’t look like they are going to produce the goods, it may be time to move them on. Now I say that, aware that I’d said I’ve wanted Arteta gone for three years…I’m not a forgiving chap and I still haven’t forgiven him for the run of form where we won one game in ten.

[selassie]

Admittedly I don’t know, another reason why whilst I don’t want him here I tend to stay more quiet on the subject during times like these when just waiting for the other shoe to drop but at the same time enjoying decent results whilst I can.

I don’t think there is an obvious candidate, unlike in the latter years of Wenger where we could have been ruthless and brought in Klopp before Liverpool got him.

I more than accept that there isn’t this plethora of capable managers out there


I think it’s more that Arteta has had enough time and spent enough money, if he was going to win something big he’d have done it by now. Last season was a test and he failed it….now I’m sure a lot of coaches would have. But the difference between him and Klopp was you could see he had built something that meant he could pick up where he’d left off the previous season….i just don’t see that with Arteta.

And it’s not that I would be confident that a successor would be any better, it’s just a case of in my eyes…if someone after four years doesn’t look like they are going to produce the goods, it may be time to move them on. Now I say that, aware that I’d said I’ve wanted Arteta gone for three years…I’m not a forgiving chap and I still haven’t forgiven him for the run of form where we won one game in ten.

So essentially what you are saying is that you expected Arteta to win a title in his first season? He has been here what 4 seasons now, of which 2 of them he was restructuring the squad and the past 2 he is now challenging for the title.

Sure we could have seen it through last season or if we are harsh he could have maybe won more domestic trophies (I.E. Carabao or FA Cup), but outside of that do you not think he has done a decent job?

Spending money doesn't equal you should / must win the big prizes.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No that’s not what I’m saying

I’m saying that in my opinion, Arteta has never given me the impression that he could make the leap to make us title challengers. To lose seven out of ten games in the league is what crystallised this for me.

I’ve been open minded enough to say well he could prove me wrong, but equally I’d say it’s as much about not being in control of the process. I’d have sacked him in December 2020, not because I didn’t think he’d win the title but because he’d lost seven games out of ten and no manager should realistically survive that at a club like Arsenal.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Spending money doesn't equal you should / must win the big prizes.

Yes of course it does, it doesn’t mean you will. But spending money is an investment and you expect a return on that investment. And I think even if you take away the fact that I’d have sacked in 2020 because of seven losses in ten…we’ve reached the point where the amount of money he’s spent means that a failure to win things represents a poor return on our investment.

I think in a couple of years it will be easier for us to win the title, Klopp will have gone, quite possibly Guardiola as well. But i think our transfers have been poor and the money is no longer there to rectify the mistakes that have been made. So in that sense possibly it won’t make a difference if we sack him, but I don’t know I kind of think sacking the person(s) responsible for putting us in that position only seems fair.

Just like if a heart surgeon botches an operation and kills the patient, sacking the doctor won’t bring back the patient but it’s a consequence for incompetence. And I use that comparison deliberately because transfers need to be conducted with surgical precision, and we’ve just swung the knife around like a drunk

[selassie]

No that’s not what I’m saying

I’m saying that in my opinion, Arteta has never given me the impression that he could make the leap to make us title challengers. To lose seven out of ten games in the league is what crystallised this for me.

I’ve been open minded enough to say well he could prove me wrong, but equally I’d say it’s as much about not being in control of the process. I’d have sacked him in December 2020, not because I didn’t think he’d win the title but because he’d lost seven games out of ten and no manager should realistically survive that at a club like Arsenal.

Come on HCZ, I know you don't like him but we are challenging for the title now and challenged last season when the best most of us hoped for and pretty much the entire world expected was a battle for 4th place.

He was lousy in back in 2020 but he has been on a upward trajectory ever since albeit with a big cheque book.

We have come from a position of not even challenging top 4 to now being a solid title challenger, well based on the past 2 seasons anyway.

[selassie]

Yes of course it does, it doesn’t mean you will. But spending money is an investment and you expect a return on that investment. And I think even if you take away the fact that I’d have sacked in 2020 because of seven losses in ten…we’ve reached the point where the amount of money he’s spent means that a failure to win things represents a poor return on our investment.

I think in a couple of years it will be easier for us to win the title, Klopp will have gone, quite possibly Guardiola as well. But i think our transfers have been poor and the money is no longer there to rectify the mistakes that have been made. So in that sense possibly it won’t make a difference if we sack him, but I don’t know I kind of think sacking the person(s) responsible for putting us in that position only seems fair.

Just like if a heart surgeon botches an operation and kills the patient, sacking the doctor won’t bring back the patient but it’s a consequence for incompetence. And I use that comparison deliberately because transfers need to be conducted with surgical precision, and we’ve just swung the knife around like a drunk

We will just have to agree to disagree :)

[selassie]

So in summation, yes I want him gone….ive wanted him gone for over three years. I don’t think anything will change that given that I don’t think we will win the league or the European cup under him. Now that’s 50% bias, I immensely dislike him as a person. I think he’s passive aggressive, lacking in charm and unless I was getting paid the money these players are, I’d absolutely refuse to work with someone like him.

But equally, I’m not especially animated about it. Where I was wrong is that this is going to be far more a return to top 4 is a trophy days rather than utter spinning wildly out of control.


Of course it’s not just him, with FFP I don’t think anyone could overnight take this team to winning things. It’s just not good enough…especially up front and in midfield. Rice has had an excellent season, but he lacks the technical ability, pace or ability to retain possession under pressure that would truly make a midfielder world class. And really we need to jettison Partey and Jorginho and bring in at least one world class midfielder to play alongside Rice. But we can’t do that because of Arteta’s transfer indiscipline


What you mean is you are doubling down and refusing to admit you were wrong about him? You wanted him gone and don't even know who you want to replace him. Come on man!!!

[HCZ_Reborn]

What you mean is you are doubling down and refusing to admit you were wrong about him? You wanted him gone and don't even know who you want to replace him. Come on man!!!

I think you’re looking for an argument here when there’s no need for one

It’s really not that difficult, given the money spent where we are is the very minimum we should be expecting. And I personally haven’t seen anything that makes me think we will make that leap. I tell you what though, for the sake of argument…if we win at Man City then something will have happened that I don’t think Arteta is capable of and by doing so he will have proved me wrong.


Now note that I say win at Man City and not win the title, the reason for that is because winning the title is not in our control. We can win every league game till the end of the season and still not win the title.

Of course you and I know it’s academic because we won’t beat City. But actually even a draw and there would be sufficient room for me to change my mind slightly.

You’re right and I’ve admitted that a lot of it is because I don’t like him. That definitely won’t change…but equally there’s also a clear divide between what Id like to see happen and what I expect should happen.


Do I think the board should get rid of him? No because the justification isn’t there. Would I like to see this happen? Yes because I don’t believe he’s going to get us where we want to be and persisting with him in my view is a waste of time

[HCZ_Reborn]

We will just have to agree to disagree :)

Well we can agree to disagree about our transfers, that is of course a matter of opinion

But surely you can’t disagree that greater transfer spending SHOULD increase chances of winning things. And that when it doesn’t, it’s because you’re in a situation like Chelsea where there is almost no coherent transfer strategy underpinning the spending

[HCZ_Reborn]

Come on HCZ, I know you don't like him but we are challenging for the title now and challenged last season when the best most of us hoped for and pretty much the entire world expected was a battle for 4th place.

He was lousy in back in 2020 but he has been on a upward trajectory ever since albeit with a big cheque book.

We have come from a position of not even challenging top 4 to now being a solid title challenger, well based on the past 2 seasons anyway.

But isn’t it indicative of what I’ve said to you about money that a coach who can lose seven games out of ten with enough spending can get you into the top four and “challenging”

But challenging also means there’s a realistic chance of winning the title and that’s what I’m saying I’ve seen no evidence of. What I’d need to see this season is us being in it right to the end.

Going by what happened two years ago for 4th and last year when we were leading the way most of the season. I don’t see evidence of capability of going that extra step.

Dont get me wrong I expect we will finish in third, and roughly in terms of points in and around what we amassed last season.

But it won’t be a race to the finish