When will Arteta be sacked by

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Indeed. We were shitting ourselves when they got to the final in 2019 :lol:

I was anyway!You're welcome :lol:

[IBK]

We are not being outspent by Liverpool or Chelsea (Chelsea have been constrained for at least 3 seasons now). We just waste our money. We did not improve our midfield or attack and instead spent on areas we were already stocked like in defence. Has Ramsdale improved us significantly, has Ben White?. Gabriel has been our most dependable defender and he scores goals too. Would Saliba a French international not have been a better addition this season instead of the 50m spent on White that could have given us more bodies in midfield where we are weakest. We spent 75m on Pepe a player not wanted by Emery at the time and discarded by Arteta almost since he arrived. What the other teams like City and Chelsea do is offer higher wages than we generally do but then again we had our 350kpw man (Ozil)for over 4 years until last year and promptly replaced him with Auba. We comfortably outspend the Spuds. Arsenal have no business pleading poverty.


We are a badly run business enterprise saved only by the fact that despite fiscal recklessness we are still a money spinner thanks to the captive addicted fanbase prepared to leverage themselves to keep supporting the club. It is a dwindling fanbase mind you as the new generation outside the UK shores are not keen to line up behind a never do well entity. We will lose the next generation as surely as the previous generation were lured to Arsenal by the exploits of Bergkamp, Henry and Vieira.

First, in terms of player purchases we have been outspent by Chelsea over the past 5 seasons. Also (FWIW) the teams above us have all spent significantly more on managers during this period.

Second, you reference Liverpool - who have managed to hit the motherload with a generational manager who has been a perfect fit for that club (a bit like early Wenger for us) and is therefore IMO an unrealistic comparison - unless you assume that Arsenal should have achieved perfection - and Sp*rs, who despite spending ridiculous amounts on different managers (up to 2021 they had paid £90M in payouts to sacked managers over the previous 10 years and this figure has increased since) have won precisely nothing and despite scraping CL football this season will finish a maximum of 4 points above us.

That said, I don't think anyone would argue that in terms of how the club is run we haven't been a shambles for most of this period. Our net spend figures have been poor because yes we have made some bad player investments, and in particular have taken big losses on outgoing players rather than this being a source of income as it has been for Liverpool.

But I think we need to see this in context. The very reason for many of our most eye catching transfer disasters has been the quick fix - hoping that spunking cash on 'star' names will bring success. So in many ways your legitimate criticism of our transfer policy up until last year is a compelling argument for the change in approach that we are now seeing at Arsenal - trying to recruit young talent to build medium term success in a new project. Unfortunately, because of mistakes at executive and at football level we were in a mess, and our losses on players who did not fit the Areta project is a result of this.

Finally, none of the most critical analysis of the club acknowledges the massively damaging effect of losing a generational manager whose influence over the club was total. The convulsions of this have taken years to address - not least because Wenger was coach, manager director of football and effectively part chief executive at our club. We can criticise the lack of planning at board level - the further destabilising effect of Gazidis jumping ship; the inexperience of our owners - all we like, but it doesn;t change the fact that we are having to come back from a situation of near total chaos.

Your criticisms of individual players may be valid in some ways, but in others ignore the fact that in many cases they were bought for their potential; can be expected to improve and are part of a development project that for me at least is the sensible way to try to progress.

We have been a badly run business enterprise, but it's unfair to ignore the improved direction of travel over the past year, and too soon IMO to write the current regime off...or for doom-mongery regarding the future.

[Chippy]

You're welcome :lol:

:scarf::tiphat:

[Chippy]

Possibly arrogant/dismissive of me, but whilst I was deflated when they turned the game around in Amsterdam at no point did I ever believe they would ever win in the final even when they were on top of Liverpool in big parts of that game.
I celebrated when Origi got the second goal but it wasn’t relief it was just confirmation of what I expected to happen

The Ajax game was on my birthday and my son told me Ajax were 2-0 up. A premature extra celebratory drink turned to despair when his face said it all at 2-3. Talk about ruining one's Birthday :(

[Mac76]

I think that there are 2 problems with those Gooners who are most vocal about Arteta's regime being a failure. First while its easy to be critical, there is often far less offered regarding what they would do differently, within the constraints of the club.

what I would have done differently:

1. not alienate/dismiss some squad members, e.g. Pepe, so that when they're called upon they can't give their best
2. have more than Eddie and Laca to rely upon up front since Jan (yes Eddie's come good on occasions but he's not consistent enough to rely upon all the time) - instead of buying Taveres we coul d have signed a striker - also we should not have loaned Balogun out
3. not sold a highly useful utility player like Chambers which means we've been stuck with Cedric
4. not have made Xhaka first on the team sheet, when he's cost us a lot of points this season through sendings off and goal-creating errors
5. not have run players like Saka into the ground
6. adopted more sensible formations for certain games, e.g. he should have played a back five away at Spuds
7. not have sanctioned introducing stupid godawful anthems which have just put more pressure on the players and made us look really patehtic Liverpool wannabes
8. kept Saliba here instead of putting him out to loan again

enough for you?

[Letters]

The Ajax game was on my birthday and my son told me Ajax were 2-0 up. A premature extra celebratory drink turned to despair when his face said it all at 2-3. Talk about ruining one's Birthday :(

I was travelling to a jolly/very important business trip to Edinburgh.
I flew, which was fun. When i took off it was 2-0 and I thought "Phew! Well at least that's one thing I don't need to worry about".
We landed, I turned my phone on and... :sick:

[Chippy]

I was travelling to a jolly/very important business trip to Edinburgh.
I flew, which was fun. When i took off it was 2-0 and I thought "Phew! Well at least that's one thing I don't need to worry about".
We landed, I turned my phone on and... :sick:

Many Gooners shared the pain that night :sick:

Thankfully Liverpool stopped them :scarf:

Please God let them get knocked out early next year :pray: I wouldn't fancy that again!

[Globalgunner]

First, in terms of player purchases we have been outspent by Chelsea over the past 5 seasons. Also (FWIW) the teams above us have all spent significantly more on managers during this period.

Second, you reference Liverpool - who have managed to hit the motherload with a generational manager who has been a perfect fit for that club (a bit like early Wenger for us) and is therefore IMO an unrealistic comparison - unless you assume that Arsenal should have achieved perfection - and Sp*rs, who despite spending ridiculous amounts on different managers (up to 2021 they had paid £90M in payouts to sacked managers over the previous 10 years and this figure has increased since) have won precisely nothing and despite scraping CL football this season will finish a maximum of 4 points above us.

That said, I don't think anyone would argue that in terms of how the club is run we haven't been a shambles for most of this period. Our net spend figures have been poor because yes we have made some bad player investments, and in particular have taken big losses on outgoing players rather than this being a source of income as it has been for Liverpool.

But I think we need to see this in context. The very reason for many of our most eye catching transfer disasters has been the quick fix - hoping that spunking cash on 'star' names will bring success. So in many ways your legitimate criticism of our transfer policy up until last year is a compelling argument for the change in approach that we are now seeing at Arsenal - trying to recruit young talent to build medium term success in a new project. Unfortunately, because of mistakes at executive and at football level we were in a mess, and our losses on players who did not fit the Areta project is a result of this.

Finally, none of the most critical analysis of the club acknowledges the massively damaging effect of losing a generational manager whose influence over the club was total. The convulsions of this have taken years to address - not least because Wenger was coach, manager director of football and effectively part chief executive at our club. We can criticise the lack of planning at board level - the further destabilising effect of Gazidis jumping ship; the inexperience of our owners - all we like, but it doesn;t change the fact that we are having to come back from a situation of near total chaos.

Your criticisms of individual players may be valid in some ways, but in others ignore the fact that in many cases they were bought for their potential; can be expected to improve and are part of a development project that for me at least is the sensible way to try to progress.

We have been a badly run business enterprise, but it's unfair to ignore the improved direction of travel over the past year, and too soon IMO to write the current regime off...or for doom-mongery regarding the future.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12535322/transfers-man-utd-top-man-city-psg-barcelona-and-arsenal-for-net-spend-over-decade

Net spend league for the last 10 seasons. No if and buts, we are way above Pool. Its nobodys fault but our own.

[IBK]

what I would have done differently:

1. not alienate/dismiss some squad members, e.g. Pepe, so that when they're called upon they can't give their best
2. have more than Eddie and Laca to rely upon up front since Jan (yes Eddie's come good on occasions but he's not consistent enough to rely upon all the time) - instead of buying Taveres we coul d have signed a striker - also we should not have loaned Balogun out
3. not sold a highly useful utility player like Chambers which means we've been stuck with Cedric
4. not have made Xhaka first on the team sheet, when he's cost us a lot of points this season through sendings off and goal-creating errors
5. not have run players like Saka into the ground
6. adopted more sensible formations for certain games, e.g. he should have played a back five away at Spuds
7. not have sanctioned introducing stupid godawful anthems which have just put more pressure on the players and made us look really patehtic Liverpool wannabes
8. kept Saliba here instead of putting him out to loan again

enough for you?

While there might be some legitimate complaints there re Arteta's team decisions, you are missing the bigger point, and ignoring the bigger picture. This is the fact that the team and the club needed stabilising big time after years of drift and executive level turmoil. We needed to re-discover an identity; a playing style and a cohesive strategy, and to a greater or lesser extent progress has undoubtedly been made on all three of these.

Had we made top 4, I think that most, if not all of your complaints would seem like obvious nit picking (there isn't a Gooner in the land who would have expected to achieve better than CL football this season). Does the fact that we will almost certainly fall short of this and end up in 5th by a very fine margin legitimise them? Possibly, but it's very easy to be wise after the event. The problem with focussing on individual player decisions is that there is no way of knowing what the alternative would have achieved. For example, Pepe has almost literally shown nothing when he has been given (albeit limited) opportunities this season, and our best player plays in his position. It's a fact of football life that back up players need to force their way into the side, and Pepe has singularly failed to do so (this must include the training pitch). IIRC Callum Chambers played poorly on occasion last season, while Cedric was OK for large parts of this one. You could argue that Saliba has developed way more on loan at Marseille than he would have done as a third/fourth choice CB at Arsenal . If you think that Eddie is not consistent enough, it is odd that you cite the loan of Balogun - who is miles behind him in terms of development - as a managerial mis-step. I'm not even going there with Xhaka who BTW has a single red this season - as he will always be a lightening rod for the team's defeiciencies.

I've always said that Arteta has made mistakes (unsurprising for a rookie), and his gamble with a small squad has ultimately fallen short, but I am yet to see a suggestion for a realistic alternative manager/general strategy for the club that would have given us more to build on at the present time.

[IBK]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12535322/transfers-man-utd-top-man-city-psg-barcelona-and-arsenal-for-net-spend-over-decade

Net spend league for the last 10 seasons. No if and buts, we are way above Pool. Its nobodys fault but our own.

...and the place I suggested that Liverpool has spent more than us is where, exactly?

[Xhaka Can’t]

...and the place I suggested that Liverpool has spent more than us is where, exactly?


FFS - it doesn’t matter, just defend that position!

[IBK]

FFS - it doesn’t matter, just defend that position!

Defend what position? Haven't seen any posts doing much more than moaning without addressing the points I have made about the progress achieved in the context of where we started from.

[Marc Overmars]

I remember the Klopp project comparisons at the start of Arteta’s reign.

He had them in a CL final at the end of year 3…

[Mac76]

I'm not even going there with Xhaka who BTW has a single red this season

in the Premier League maybe, but he was sent off against Liverpool in the cup don't forget

he's been sent off more times than any other PL player since he began playing for us, he also has served suspensions for getting too many yellows - so far he's had 52 in the PL in total

[IBK]

in the Premier League maybe, but he was sent off against Liverpool in the cup don't forget

he's been sent off more times than any other PL player since he began playing for us, he also has served suspensions for getting too many yellows - so far he's had 52 in the PL in total

We've already been here and you won't be dissuaded from your Xhaka hate so I won't try...

[IBK]

I remember the Klopp project comparisons at the start of Arteta’s reign.

He had them in a CL final at the end of year 3…

...and was regarded as one of the world's best coaches with 14 years of top flight experience when he arrived at Liverpool. Do we really think this is a fair or realistic comparison with Arteta?

[Mac76]

We've already been here and you won't be dissuaded from your Xhaka hate so I won't try...

in other words you're dismissing the evidence i just gave you because it doesn't fit with your world view - are you a Tory minister by any chance?

and in general your attempted brushing aside of Arteta's failings in favour of some vague stuff around 'bringing the club together' might have some merit but he's still responsible for multiple failures

he accidentally stumbled on players like Saka, Martinelli, ESR and now Elneny after ignoring them for a long time, it's not been a strategic thing to bring them in

he doesn't recognise when players are ready and he's doing the same with Balogun and especially Saliba, instead relying on too few playes to get the job done

[Niall_Quinn]

IBK always argues in good faith. The opposite of you. The nerve, to accuse somebody of dismissing evidence. As for world views, good lord. That's priceless. Especially as you underpin the comedy with a reference to Tories, the ultimate fake paradigm which you buy into so easily, despite all the... evidence.

[IBK]

in other words you're dismissing the evidence i just gave you because it doesn't fit with your world view - are you a Tory minister by any chance?

and in general your attempted brushing aside of Arteta's failings in favour of some vague stuff around 'bringing the club together' might have some merit but he's still responsible for multiple failures

he accidentally stumbled on players like Saka, Martinelli, ESR and now Elneny after ignoring them for a long time, it's not been a strategic thing to bring them in

he doesn't recognise when players are ready and he's doing the same with Balogun and especially Saliba, instead relying on too few playes to get the job done

I didn't dismiss the 'evidence'. What I dismissed was any prospect of a reasonable debate with you about Xhaka - and your own dismissal of what is an improved disciplinary record from this player this season speaks to this. Neither have I brushed aside Arteta's failings. Far from it. But this is the problem with 'absolutist' arguments isn't it? Pointing out areas where Arteta has made progress is brushing aside failings. It's not - they are 2 different things. You don't like or rate Arteta - fair enough - youre entitled to your opinions. But if you think that the club hasn't made progress under him (and success at any football club is about more than just picking players) then I think that your antipathy is making you, not me, pretty one-eyed.

[IBK]

in other words you're dismissing the evidence i just gave you because it doesn't fit with your world view - are you a Tory minister by any chance?

and in general your attempted brushing aside of Arteta's failings in favour of some vague stuff around 'bringing the club together' might have some merit but he's still responsible for multiple failures

he accidentally stumbled on players like Saka, Martinelli, ESR and now Elneny after ignoring them for a long time, it's not been a strategic thing to bring them in

he doesn't recognise when players are ready and he's doing the same with Balogun and especially Saliba, instead relying on too few playes to get the job done

Also your comments re the above players again shows a lack of balance. I agree with you that we were left with too small a squd/first teamers to get the job done this season, but even this needs to be balanced by the key injories we suffered at crucial times. Also, its interesting that you focus on the manager's apparent inability to recognise young talent while ignoring the fact that this season he has built a team around them. Is it not also fair to recognise the improvements that they have made (or do you put this solely down to the players themselves with no outside influence)?

[Mac76]

Also your comments re the above players again shows a lack of balance. I agree with you that we were left with too small a squd/first teamers to get the job done this season, but even this needs to be balanced by the key injories we suffered at crucial times. Also, its interesting that you focus on the manager's apparent inability to recognise young talent while ignoring the fact that this season he has built a team around them. Is it not also fair to recognise the improvements that they have made (or do you put this solely down to the players themselves with no outside influence)?

my point is he began by bringing in people like Willian and showing a clear mistrust of our younger players - it was only when injuries etc forced him to play the likes of Saka and ESR that he realised they were the best hope of building a cohesive team

it's just one example of how he came into the job knowing nothing and is learning on the job at a big club, instead of doing what he should have and started in the lower leagues.

[Marc Overmars]

...and was regarded as one of the world's best coaches with 14 years of top flight experience when he arrived at Liverpool. Do we really think this is a fair or realistic comparison with Arteta?

I agree, it wasn’t fair but Liverpool and Klopp was consistently used as some kind of comparison stick because the starting point was similar to what Arteta inherited. I remember reading plenty of random stats like Arteta’s first 50 games v Klopp etc and they weren’t too dissimilar, in fact Arteta at times compared favourably.

It was always comparing apples and oranges but that didn’t stop Arteta backers from using arbitrary facts from the early part of Klopp’s reign to paint Arteta to be something. It was obvious from the start that Liverpool were on a super charged trajectory, every year they were moving the needle. Where as we’ve seen what can only be described as incremental progress at best.

I know the margins are fine and we were close this year but history isn’t going to remember that. Arteta must get us back into the CL if he’s to be taken seriously, 3 years is good period of time to get, most coaches are lucky to get that now, next year is the one where he has to deliver.

[I am invisible]

Well, I’m still very much happy with where we’re going, and I’m happy to continue with the current project. I’ve seen enough evidence of progress and direction of travel and identity coming together to keep me interested, and we’ve hit our objectives for the year. The wheels may have come off over these last few weeks, but that 4 month period after we ditched Aubameyang wasn’t a mirage - we were genuinely good over a sustained period then and you could very clearly see the outlines of the long-term plan taking shape.

Obviously the way we’re ending the season is a bit of a shame after all we’ve done to get ourselves in such a great position, but, if we’re being honest, we all knew it was coming - most of us called it back in January when we pruned the squad without being able to recruit. Personally, I think it’s something of a minor miracle that we managed to make it to the spurs game before we got found out! The spine of our side has been Eddie Nketiah, Granit Xhaka, Mo Elneny and Rob Holding for a good month or more now, with a couple of championship-level fullbacks, and nothing on the bench to turn to, and we’re still in with a mathematical shout of top 4! Honestly, there’s no major problems here and no mystery as to why we’re limping over the line - we’ve just run out of logs to toss on the fire.

I can’t say I’m overly fussed about whether it’s CL or EL for us next season - when we get to a point where we’re actually strong enough to compete for the CL, then I’ll start caring about it, but until then it’s just about getting a young squad used to rigours of regular midweek football and travel, and either competition will do for that. The only reasons I really wanted CL now we’re a) to stop spurs having it and b) because I really fucking hate Thursday / Sunday matches!

I don’t think we have to worry about it affecting our summer plans, though - the next phase of our rebuild will have been contingent on making the EL as a minimum, and the amount of money you earn just for taking part in the EPL these days means we’ll have no worries about affording the players we want. Any big-name players going into their peak years might think twice about joining us now, if we don’t have CL to offer, but tbh I don’t think we do our best business at that end of the market anyway - we’ll have no shortage of options if we continue shopping in that 22-23yo bracket.

Overall I’m excited to see where we go next. We’ve done extraordinarily well to be where we are, mixing it with the company we’re in, with the youngest, thinnest squad in the league, the youngest manager in the league, and without a decent CF option - add some depth and add a goal-scorer or two and I think there’s something coming together here.

[IBK]

my point is he began by bringing in people like Willian and showing a clear mistrust of our younger players - it was only when injuries etc forced him to play the likes of Saka and ESR that he realised they were the best hope of building a cohesive team

it's just one example of how he came into the job knowing nothing and is learning on the job at a big club, instead of doing what he should have and started in the lower leagues.

Don't get me wrong. There is a lot you say that I agree with, and Arteta is flawed, for sure. he has made some disastrous decisions, and the Willian move was one of these. For the 1st half of Arteta's regime, I think we was far too wedded to relying on so called senior players - and this may be understandable for a young manager trying to find his feet, and in particular the authority to create the team that he wanted to. He has also been found wanting this season when - having committed to developing a young team, he was far too 'conservative' in stepping outside his first 11 - and when injuries hit some of his back ups didn't have the confidence or the match experience to take us over the line, and this was compounded by tactical mistakes in playing his 'favourites' out of position rather than trusting the reserves. I suppose that our main difference is that I think I have seen enough to have some confidence that Arteta will learn from his mistakes and evolve next season, but like MO says if this evolution does not continue then it will be time to re-asess the manager's position.

[selassie]

I think we have done quite well this season all things being considered but we are going to need to continue to improve if we want to finish in the top 4 next season. The top two are miles ahead of us. We are basically sitting in that group below City and Liverpool with Chelsea and the Sc*m. I suspect Man United will be back in that group next season and presumably Newcastle if they buy well in the Summer. Chelsea have a decent manager and will spend, as do the Sc*m. Man United will most likely improve and buy young high profiled players, Ten Haag is a good young manager too who has proven he can build a competitve team that performs well in CL. We have no room for error going forward, we have to buy and buy well, not just beefing up the squad but buying first team players in many positions. If some of the young players lose their place then so be it.

After the defeat agains the Sc*m I was resigned to Europa league football, it was obvious we weren't getting anything from the Newcastle game, the squad had run out of gas and our squad players are simply not good enough anyway, it was plain for all to see.

I'm going to judge Arteta next season on a results only basis, the settling in period is over for me now, this is his team and he will presumably add players of his choice to it in the Summer. We are now in a position where I expect a strong challenge for top 3/4 and if we don't next season then Arteta has to go.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's truly amazing how some fans, a lot of them, just can't see what's happening here. Compare Arsenal 2022 with Arsenal 2002, or even 1982. Everything that made us Arsenal is gone. And if I'm wrong about that, please do correct me. But back it up with evidence, not repetitive hope and speculation.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsenal fans are gutted because they didn't get 4th. They want the manager out because he didn't get 4th. They view the season as a failure because they didn't get 4th.

4TH!

These fans are stone cold losers. They think 4th place is success. And so does the club.

And THAT'S the main and currently insurmountable problem at Arsenal because the loser club and the loser manager and the loser players and the loser fans all think 4th is success.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yes that is the sum total of fan ambition

We know why the club want 4th but I don’t think you can conflate that with fan wishes to use it as a stepping stone.

Given how in another post you think the game is entirely rigged, I’m surprised it even matters to you.

[selassie]

Arsenal fans are gutted because they didn't get 4th. They want the manager out because he didn't get 4th. They view the season as a failure because they didn't get 4th.

4TH!

These fans are stone cold losers. They think 4th place is success. And so does the club.

And THAT'S the main and currently insurmountable problem at Arsenal because the loser club and the loser manager and the loser players and the loser fans all think 4th is success.

I want Arsenal to win the League and Champions League (something we haven't ever achieved). I want Arsenal to buy and attract the world's best players.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but what I will say is that things take time. At the moment i dont EXPECT us to be competing for the title, we clearly do not have a squad to do that. What I want to see is progress and by that I mean realistic improvements and seeing Arsenal back amongst the top 4 in the league. Seeing Arsenal in the Champions League. If that makes me a loser so be it. But I am a realist and no manager in the world right now can turn this current team into Champions.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes that is the sum total of fan ambition

We know why the club want 4th but I don’t think you can conflate that with fan wishes to use it as a stepping stone.

Given how in another post you think the game is entirely rigged, I’m surprised it even matters to you.

Well I didn't watch any of it today. I think my frustration at stupid and gullible fans goes back to Wenger's time when it took so much to convince these dummies of the reality. Now, years later, same silly sods being fed shit and liking it. Which, even then, is not that important to me. Except - these bastards vote. And they keep the BBC propped up. And they wear their masks and support Nazis in Ukraine and think it's a good idea that lunatics and Alzheimer's patients dictate everyone's lives.

It's connected. I see the same stupidity in every facet of life. But yes, in isolation, I don't care about Arsenal at all.

[Niall_Quinn]

I want Arsenal to win the League and Champions League (something we haven't ever achieved). I want Arsenal to buy and attract the world's best players.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but what I will say is that things take time. At the moment i dont EXPECT us to be competing for the title, we clearly do not have a squad to do that. What I want to see is progress and by that I mean realistic improvements and seeing Arsenal back amongst the top 4 in the league. Seeing Arsenal in the Champions League. If that makes me a loser so be it. But I am a realist and no manager in the world right now can turn this current team into Champions.

I predicted the outcome precisely. Before the match. I predicted the season, precisely, before a ball was kicked. Because I'm a genius?

No.

It's because I have eyes and a memory and a brain functional enough to recognise patterns. This doesn't require much intelligence, but it does require some.

[selassie]

I predicted the outcome precisely. Before the match. I predicted the season, precisely, before a ball was kicked. Because I'm a genius?

No.

It's because I have eyes and a memory and a brain functional enough to recognise patterns. This doesn't require much intelligence, but it does require some.

What would you do if you were in charge? Or more to the point where do you expect us to be?

It's not even about recognising patterns this season either, i am disappointed how the season ended but i didn't expect us to even be in the top 6 at the start of the season, honestly thought we would finish halfway down the table again. It doesn't make our league position any better, but the reality of the situation is that we are not good enough, our squad is weak and we all knew that before a ball was kicked. It came to bite us in the bum at the business end of the season.

[Letters]

They think 4th place is success. And so does the club.
The club probably do see it as success, because they only care about the financials.

I'd suggest the fans - most fans at least - see it as progress. This season has been a mixed bag. But we ended the season with more wins than anyone outside the top 2 who are miles above us or anyone else. We got a number of points which would have seen us top 4 in the last 2 seasons. It's not the final destination any fan wants to see but is it a step towards it? I'd say so. It's important to remember that just 2 seasons ago we ended up in 8th with 56 points. We won 14 games out of 38 in 2019/20. 14! We actually lost more games this season than then but we didn't draw many and managed to grind out a lot of wins. That's progress. Is it enough? Well, opinions will vary from person to person. For me it's enough to give Arteta one more season. Others may disagree and that's fine. But the only reasonable basis for comparison is last season and whether we've pushed on from that. My opinion about that has changed a lot this season but looking at the final outcome I think so. Yes, some of the old failings are still there. Yes, there's clearly work to be done. If Arteta doesn't do the right things in the summer and/or there isn't clear progress next season then fine, get rid. But this season we're disappointed we missed out on Top 4. Last season we weren't even in the conversation. It's a step in the right direction, not where we want to end up.

[Letters]

I predicted the outcome precisely. Before the match. I predicted the season, precisely, before a ball was kicked. Because I'm a genius?

No.

It's because I have eyes and a memory and a brain functional enough to recognise patterns. This doesn't require much intelligence, but it does require some.

You also said you'd hope for a title challenge 2 seasons after a certain previous manager left.
Your foresight is not as 20:20 as you like to give yourself credit for.

[Niall_Quinn]

You also said you'd hope for a title challenge 2 seasons after a certain previous manager left.
Your foresight is not as 20:20 as you like to give yourself credit for.

What's that got to do with anything? You mention that a lot, as if it's some great gotcha moment. I didn't predict a title challenge. I demanded it. As a club that claims to be among the elite and which fleeces its fans beyond the dreams of all other clubs, why shouldn't the return be commensurate with the cost? And now we see all the fans lamenting losing the 4th Place Trophy. Wenger, the man who had lost all touch with reality by the end, taught so many fans how to lose and how to lose well.

Next year you'll be here, making the same excuses as if this year never existed. There's another prediction for you, not that it requires 20/20 or any vision at all really.

[Letters]

You mention that a lot, as if it's some great gotcha moment.
I haven't mentioned it for ages, but I do sometimes remind you of it when you act like you have such amazing predictive powers. You don't.


I didn't predict a title challenge. I demanded it.
You thought it possible - there were other posts where you said we'd be mixing it with pretty much anyone but...I think it was City pretty much immediately.
I must admit I didn't think we'd be quite so awful post Wenger, but a title challenge that quickly seemed unlikely to me. The gap was too big. It still is.


As a club that claims to be among the elite and which fleeces its fans beyond the dreams of all other clubs, why shouldn't the return be commensurate with the cost?
Because the footballing landscape has changed. We are now trying to compete with sides who have the infinite money cheat on.
Where have pretty much all the titles ended up since we last won it? Leicester are the only outlier who can be said to have won it.
Where were Chelsea before Abramovic took over? Where were City before their sugar daddy came on board?
One thing I don't understand is why these clubs aren't called out by the pundits. Why are they circle-jerking over City winning another title?
We all know how they've done it, why is it lauded as an achievement? I used to bang on about it being like buying a degree off the internet to the point where I was widely and quite rightly mocked for it. But the comparison stands up, it's pretty much exactly like that. There have always been haves and have nots of course but the playing field was never that uneven. Sky started to change that, it was exacerbated by the expansion of the CL and then Chelsea put it all on steroids when they started swooping in and buying players before other clubs could. Doubling what anyone else would pay and then sticking the player on the bench. Because they could.
The return should be higher, given how much money the club fleeces the fans for. But given where we were a couple of years back a bit of realism is needed.

Wenger certainly made too much of the Top 4 Trophy but like it or not the CL is football's top table and it is important to be sat at it, even if you are just making up the numbers


Next year you'll be here, making the same excuses as if this year never existed.
Excuses for what? Not being champions? I don't need to make an "excuse" for that, we have no chance of being champions next year.
There is no manager in the world who could make that happen, the gap between us and the top 2 is simply too big to bridge in one season - probably not even with the infinite money cheat, which we don't have. What I've been expecting is progress. I believe I've seen that over the last couple of years, if I see that continuing then I'll be reasonably content. If I see us stagnating or going backwards then I'll be hopping back on the Arteta Out bandwagon quicker than you can say "Wenger Out".

[Chippy]

Well I didn't watch any of it today. I think my frustration at stupid and gullible fans goes back to Wenger's time when it took so much to convince these dummies of the reality. Now, years later, same silly sods being fed shit and liking it. Which, even then, is not that important to me. Except - these bastards vote. And they keep the BBC propped up. And they wear their masks and support Nazis in Ukraine and think it's a good idea that lunatics and Alzheimer's patients dictate everyone's lives.

It's connected. I see the same stupidity in every facet of life. But yes, in isolation, I don't care about Arsenal at all.

I am also falling out of love with this once great club. I should have been a bit happy with the result today, but it was like reading some other clubs result. This club is so far removed from the team I first watched in 1972. Yes, I am bloody old!
The tradition has completely gone and will never return, a bit like football in general.

[Globalgunner]

A problem with most of the fans here on this forum and maybe in general is that they are like mothers defending their child. They will hear NO criticism. Dreaming and conjuring up excuses for why the child has performed poorly compared to its mates. This club is a professional sporting franchise. It should strive to be the absolute best in its field. Instead we coddled failures and rationalise it. Sure we can defend ourselves from other fans but when we cannot even be sincere amongst ourselves, all ambition is lost
We blame luck instead of bad planning. Circumstances instead of strategy. We blame the other kid for having unnatural attributes for our offspring coming up short.
This is exactly the autopsy we gave last season. Next season will be better....Yeah sure it will.

Arsenal ain't your kid. You are not its Mom.

[Niall_Quinn]

I haven't mentioned it for ages, but I do sometimes remind you of it when you act like you have such amazing predictive powers. You don't.


You thought it possible - there were other posts where you said we'd be mixing it with pretty much anyone but...I think it was City pretty much immediately.
I must admit I didn't think we'd be quite so awful post Wenger, but a title challenge that quickly seemed unlikely to me. The gap was too big. It still is.


Because the footballing landscape has changed. We are now trying to compete with sides who have the infinite money cheat on.
Where have pretty much all the titles ended up since we last won it? Leicester are the only outlier who can be said to have won it.
Where were Chelsea before Abramovic took over? Where were City before their sugar daddy came on board?
One thing I don't understand is why these clubs aren't called out by the pundits. Why are they circle-jerking over City winning another title?
We all know how they've done it, why is it lauded as an achievement? I used to bang on about it being like buying a degree off the internet to the point where I was widely and quite rightly mocked for it. But the comparison stands up, it's pretty much exactly like that. There have always been haves and have nots of course but the playing field was never that uneven. Sky started to change that, it was exacerbated by the expansion of the CL and then Chelsea put it all on steroids when they started swooping in and buying players before other clubs could. Doubling what anyone else would pay and then sticking the player on the bench. Because they could.
The return should be higher, given how much money the club fleeces the fans for. But given where we were a couple of years back a bit of realism is needed.

Wenger certainly made too much of the Top 4 Trophy but like it or not the CL is football's top table and it is important to be sat at it, even if you are just making up the numbers


Excuses for what? Not being champions? I don't need to make an "excuse" for that, we have no chance of being champions next year.
There is no manager in the world who could make that happen, the gap between us and the top 2 is simply too big to bridge in one season - probably not even with the infinite money cheat, which we don't have. What I've been expecting is progress. I believe I've seen that over the last couple of years, if I see that continuing then I'll be reasonably content. If I see us stagnating or going backwards then I'll be hopping back on the Arteta Out bandwagon quicker than you can say "Wenger Out".

Find the posts and show me. I said a club of this stature with such a history should ALWAYS be challenging - not winning by divine right, but fighting. We also had MUCH, MUCH better players back then. The players we have now are abject shit. They can't kick a ball straight, bar the two obvious exceptions.

Three wins against nobody clubs and a decent showing in a game that's so important to the fans and it was the Top 3 Trophy on the line. Actual progress. Instead, 3 losses, an embarrassing humiliation and then a no-show against dogshit Newcastle. How many excuses does it take to explain such a remarkable collapse? Again. On the back of how many collapses over the decade?

When will it dawn on you?

Excuses, excuses, excuses. And not just about football.

[Niall_Quinn]

I am also falling out of love with this once great club. I should have been a bit happy with the result today, but it was like reading some other clubs result. This club is so far removed from the team I first watched in 1972. Yes, I am bloody old!
The tradition has completely gone and will never return, a bit like football in general.

Marketing and commercial scumbags know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Football has become a gravy train for all involved. The clubs, the players and the countless hangers=on. And above all, the appalling bodies that govern the sport. Surely there's no greedier and corrupt organisation on the planet than FIFA. We are looking forward to their shitty World Cup in Qatar of all places. 4,000 dead so 4,000 can milk more money than the billions watching earn combined. The whole thing has gone from the dream of a kid who gets to play for his local team to the most disgusting and undignified display of self indulgence imaginable. All propped up by fans who confuse the past with the present. Or fans who are into gambling. Or fans too young to know there was anything better.

1972? Leeds were something back then. That's who I used to watch out for before I was committed enough to back Arsenal, around 77, because I figured supporting a team 200 miles away was not what support was all about. So it was Arsenal, West Ham or Southend. Everyone supported West Ham where I grew up. So Arsenal it was, given Southend was no choice at all. The Brian Talbot made me cry in the cup final. When it was a real cup final. It's not just old codgers talking about Charlton's comb-over. It genuinely was a much better experience back then.

[LDG]

I think you have to be more pragmatic to box up what Arteta has done for the club, and you have to separate the business end from the football end (even if the are inextricably linked).

Top 4 should never be the ambition, first place should. But without complete financial doping, you do need CL football to attract a higher level player to get yourself to the top.

Whilst footballers and their greed (as a collective) disgusts me, you don’t become a sportsman in general if you’re happy with fourth place. So if you have a choice between a club playing Europa or CL, you’ll pick the later for all kinds of reasons.

That is the reason why I wanted us to get 4th this year, hand in hand with beating those cunts down the road.

That all said, what has Arteta achieved? Well, I like to think we have a basic structure to build on. We have players playing in a more organised shape. We have players who seem to want to play together. And we have some real talent.

Compare that to seasons past with countless players on excessive wages who couldn’t be bothered to train let alone play. We were at rock bottom. Since then we’ve addressed that issue, and managed contracts properly.

If we had top four, I think we could have pushed on quicker next term, but we’ve lost an entire season by losing at Newcastle. Arteta is at fault for that, and under normal circumstances, its enough to call for his head. But I will give him another season, on the badis I believe in the direction (despite not reaching the destination this year). It all rests on what he does in the transfer market for me….I want Xhaka gone, and I want winners in…this window will tell us whether we demand success now as a club, or whether we’re going to keep sticking selotape round leaky pipes.

If we had put up cash in January to add depth and a striker, I honestly think we could have been third. That is the failt of Arteta, regardless of where the money is, because he should have been demanding it.

[IBK]

I think you have to be more pragmatic to box up what Arteta has done for the club, and you have to separate the business end from the football end (even if the are inextricably linked).

Top 4 should never be the ambition, first place should. But without complete financial doping, you do need CL football to attract a higher level player to get yourself to the top.

Whilst footballers and their greed (as a collective) disgusts me, you don’t become a sportsman in general if you’re happy with fourth place. So if you have a choice between a club playing Europa or CL, you’ll pick the later for all kinds of reasons.

That is the reason why I wanted us to get 4th this year, hand in hand with beating those cunts down the road.

That all said, what has Arteta achieved? Well, I like to think we have a basic structure to build on. We have players playing in a more organised shape. We have players who seem to want to play together. And we have some real talent.

Compare that to seasons past with countless players on excessive wages who couldn’t be bothered to train let alone play. We were at rock bottom. Since then we’ve addressed that issue, and managed contracts properly.

If we had top four, I think we could have pushed on quicker next term, but we’ve lost an entire season by losing at Newcastle. Arteta is at fault for that, and under normal circumstances, its enough to call for his head. But I will give him another season, on the badis I believe in the direction (despite not reaching the destination this year). It all rests on what he does in the transfer market for me….I want Xhaka gone, and I want winners in…this window will tell us whether we demand success now as a club, or whether we’re going to keep sticking selotape round leaky pipes.

If we had put up cash in January to add depth and a striker, I honestly think we could have been third. That is the failt of Arteta, regardless of where the money is, because he should have been demanding it.

I pretty much agree with all that. I also get the disappointment of those who lament our club's decline since the glory days of the 00's. But we have little option but to accept this and look forwards. I like the phrase 'there may be no excuse but there is an explanation'. In hindsight, I am certain that Arteta and the club would have done something to address the striker situation in January. But I also don't think this lack of investment was simply down to a refusal to spend money. We had made many mistakes over the previous few years in investing in expensive - and in some cases short termist - players who did not fit into a cohesive plan. We have been damaged by players with the wrong temperament who did not foster a team ethic. It's clear that avoiding the same mistakes - and also, IMO, a belief that top 6, not top 4 was our realistic objective - was the driver for what now seems like a mistake. We don't know whether Arteta 'demanded' any acquisitions but I find it doubtful that he did not ask.

[KSE Comedy Club]

A problem with most of the fans here on this forum and maybe in general is that they are like mothers defending their child. They will hear NO criticism. Dreaming and conjuring up excuses for why the child has performed poorly compared to its mates. This club is a professional sporting franchise. It should strive to be the absolute best in its field. Instead we coddled failures and rationalise it. Sure we can defend ourselves from other fans but when we cannot even be sincere amongst ourselves, all ambition is lost
We blame luck instead of bad planning. Circumstances instead of strategy. We blame the other kid for having unnatural attributes for our offspring coming up short.
This is exactly the autopsy we gave last season. Next season will be better....Yeah sure it will.

Arsenal ain't your kid. You are not its Mom.

Fantastic analogy, one of the best I've read tbh.

I think it sums up the fanbase/Arsenal issue quite perfectly.

Well said :gp:

[Marc Overmars]

Best thing for Arteta is to get the signings done early and start the season quick out of the traps. We always seem to begin a new season under prepared which costs us far too many points. His rookie years are over now, he’s had sufficient time to find his feet and understand the requirements of the job. He’s had highs and lows so the inexperience card has worn thin. 4th has got to be mandatory next year but I do fear we’ve missed a huge opportunity.

[IBK]

A problem with most of the fans here on this forum and maybe in general is that they are like mothers defending their child. They will hear NO criticism. Dreaming and conjuring up excuses for why the child has performed poorly compared to its mates. This club is a professional sporting franchise. It should strive to be the absolute best in its field. Instead we coddled failures and rationalise it. Sure we can defend ourselves from other fans but when we cannot even be sincere amongst ourselves, all ambition is lost
We blame luck instead of bad planning. Circumstances instead of strategy. We blame the other kid for having unnatural attributes for our offspring coming up short.
This is exactly the autopsy we gave last season. Next season will be better....Yeah sure it will.

Arsenal ain't your kid. You are not its Mom.

Wrong. You conflate offering an alternate view and trying to find some balance with blind defence. I have seen noone on here (or in the real world) who doesn't freely admit that Arteta and the club have made some serious missteps. You are entitled to your views, but few clubs have achieved any success with fans failing to get behind the project. Those of us trying to do so (and on the few times I have been to the Emirates this season I would say that this is the majority of the matchday crowd) should not be dismissed as blind or accepting of mediocrity.

[Letters]

A problem with most of the fans here on this forum and maybe in general is that they are like mothers defending their child. They will hear NO criticism.
Well that's just demonstrable bullshit
I have no idea at all where you get that from the posts on here. People - me included - have been hopping on and off the Arteta Out bandwagon all season.
No-one on here thinks the club, players or manager are beyond reproach. There has been a lot of criticism of all those things all season on here as there always has been.


Dreaming and conjuring up excuses for why the child has performed poorly compared to its mates.
Well, that's where the debate lies. Have we performed poorly compared to our mates? Who are our mates in this analogy? Liverpool and City? They're top of the class right now while we've been just above middle of the class. Even if we want us to ultimately join City and Liverpool at the top table, some realism is needed about how quickly that can happen. The question is whether we are heading in the right direction.


We blame luck instead of bad planning. Circumstances instead of strategy.
Who is doing that? Arteta left our squad threadbare in January, that has ultimately cost us and has been widely acknowledged. We didn't miss out by bad luck, even if things went against us at Spurs it was still in our hands. We shat our pants at Newcastle, that's where we lost it.


We blame the other kid for having unnatural attributes for our offspring coming up short.
I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that City and Chelsea have been able to afford a private tutor which gives them an unfair advantage. But we aren't exactly paupers, we should be doing better. But the delta between us and the top 2 over the last few seasons has been huge, to think we can bridge that gap in one or two seasons is unrealistic.


This is exactly the autopsy we gave last season. Next season will be better....Yeah sure it will.
And it was. 8 points and 3 league positions better. That might not be enough for you, but it exceeded my pre-season expectations. I asked you before what you were expecting from this season in terms of league position and what that was based on and you didn't respond. You didn't post in the season predictions thread either so I have no idea what you were expecting. The top 2 are clearly miles above us, we were never going to finish above either this year. Chelsea seemed to be pretty well above us too although they have underperformed this year and we were closer than I expected. That leaves Utd, Spurs and us competing for 4th spot, I saw no reason to think we would finish above both. I didn't anticipate Utd having such a car crash of a season, I did think Spurs would finish above us although they Spursed it up enough this season that they shouldn't have.

Next year it's top 4 or bust for me. If Arteta doesn't achieve that then he should go. We were close this year, if we do the right things this summer and with the young squad a year older and more experienced then that should be achievable. I don't think we can trouble the top 2 next year but like it or not Top 4 is a step towards that, it unlocks the finances and prestige to attract the players we need to push on.

My feeling about you is that you are one of those fans who is never happy unless you have something to moan about. No-one on here thinks that "everything is awesome", but many of us can see that we are trying to build something. I don't know how far Arteta can take us, but he's earned the right to try.

[Letters]

I think it sums up the fanbase/Arsenal issue quite perfectly.

Well said :gp:
It's not a good post. It doesn't sum up the fanbase. Pretty much every post on here shows it to be bollox.

[KSE Comedy Club]

It's not a good post. It doesn't sum up the fanbase. Pretty much every post on here shows it to be bollox.

you missed the sarcasm ##

[Niall_Quinn]

I think you have to be more pragmatic to box up what Arteta has done for the club, and you have to separate the business end from the football end (even if the are inextricably linked).

Top 4 should never be the ambition, first place should. But without complete financial doping, you do need CL football to attract a higher level player to get yourself to the top.

Whilst footballers and their greed (as a collective) disgusts me, you don’t become a sportsman in general if you’re happy with fourth place. So if you have a choice between a club playing Europa or CL, you’ll pick the later for all kinds of reasons.

That is the reason why I wanted us to get 4th this year, hand in hand with beating those cunts down the road.

That all said, what has Arteta achieved? Well, I like to think we have a basic structure to build on. We have players playing in a more organised shape. We have players who seem to want to play together. And we have some real talent.

Compare that to seasons past with countless players on excessive wages who couldn’t be bothered to train let alone play. We were at rock bottom. Since then we’ve addressed that issue, and managed contracts properly.

If we had top four, I think we could have pushed on quicker next term, but we’ve lost an entire season by losing at Newcastle. Arteta is at fault for that, and under normal circumstances, its enough to call for his head. But I will give him another season, on the badis I believe in the direction (despite not reaching the destination this year). It all rests on what he does in the transfer market for me….I want Xhaka gone, and I want winners in…this window will tell us whether we demand success now as a club, or whether we’re going to keep sticking selotape round leaky pipes.

If we had put up cash in January to add depth and a striker, I honestly think we could have been third. That is the failt of Arteta, regardless of where the money is, because he should have been demanding it.

That's absolutely right. Top 4 is a by-product of ambition, not the ambition itself. In competing to be first (AND ONLY FIRST) you can run into teams that are better on the day or better over a season, that's a fact of life. So you might end up second best, or even third. But you were always striving to win.

Arsenal has sold a bag of expensive shit to the fans that makes it admirable to hang around the big table and see if enough scraps can be accumulated to make a meal. That "coveted" 4th place that, somehow, on the back of being 20 or 30 points adrift of the eventual winners, 13 losses later, 40 fewer goals scored, an embarrassing goal difference, makes it progress to limp in 5th having puked in terror at every challenge. It's actually a shameful season piled on a rotten mound of prior average to shameful seasons going back a decade.

I don't think it's all down to Arteta either. When Wenger left we needed somebody to come in and install the basics, particularly with the defence. Arteta has achieved that much at least, but again some fans see this as an achievement rather than repair work and the absolute minimum that should be expected. He's also working with significantly inferior players as the standard of the game in general drops inversely proportional to the obscene cash fire-hosed at kids who are financially successful beyond their wildest dreams before they've achieved anything at all. It must be hard going trying to manage such excess and keep bloated egos hungry for a fight.

Is that what Klopp possesses? The ability to motivate his troops to leave their caviar littered harems and fight for a sporting concept? Is that what Arteta lacks? That Newcastle game was unbelievable. After ten years, to still be walking onto a pitch and lying down like that. Is there a single sign anywhere at the club to suggest it won't happen again and again when the chips are down? I don't think so. There might be a plan and the plan might be winding through its foundation stages. But does that plan involve leaders and fighting spirit and the "impossible" goals Wenger would set when he still had the heart for it?

We've gone from "go the entire season unbeaten" (from which obvious by-products materialise) to "Top 4 Trophy". That's quite the cultural shift. Sure, we know WHY we need to be in the CL - cash. Which is all that competition is about these days (when it used to be about champions facing champions). But what's that got to do with the nature of sport itself and fighting for each and every victory that, cumulatively, results in success? CL is just a business thing, for the owners, for the balance sheet, for the wild player wages and so the fans can spend even more. It's a marketing thing. The real business though is the 38 game season that gets you there, where the goal is a sporting one - the title, first place. Get that right and the marketing takes care of itself.

[Niall_Quinn]

Or, TLDR, Leicester City. Nothing is impossible before a ball is kicked.

[Letters]

Or, TLDR, Leicester City. Nothing is impossible before a ball is kicked.
So many things had to conspire for that to happen. They showed it's possible in an era where what they did shouldn't be possible. But it was a one off, they didn't repeat it and won't repeat it.
Wenger's "go the entire season unbeaten" was said in September 2002. We were Champions, having lost only 3 league games. Even in that context it was ridiculed as a ridiculous claim.
From where we are now we are in no position to be talking about that sort of thing. Top 4 is a step towards where we want to get to. I agree with your thoughts about the CL, but unfortunately these days it's become "a thing", whether we like it or not. It's risible that Spurs players were celebrating in the dressing room yesterday having achieved it, but for all our disagreements we are pretty aligned about how awful the modern game is. It's where the top players want to play, it's where the money is and in an era where money and success are so tightly coupled it's where we need to be. But I agree it shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions and Wenger made too much of it.

TL;DR, we may be in the gutter looking at the stars but let's recognise that we are in the gutter right now and before we start planning a trip to Proxima Centuri there's a lot of work we need to do first.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Context is important, we would all be happy to be where Liverpool are and many of us see them as a blueprint for a successful model for us to follow but they had to wait 30 years for a league title. The Red machine, the top club in the country.
It’s also important to remember how many different ways they tried to bring out success that ultimately resulted in failure.

Im no fan of Arteta because he doesn’t strike me as the person to bring us forward and I am hesitant about more time and money being wasted in the hopes that he irons out his flaws as a coach and as a person.

But things are ephemeral in football, there really is no point comparing us to twenty or forty years ago because the club and the football environment is completely different. There’s no sense in crying for the moon, we are where we are.

Therefore the only thing worth focusing on is where we go from here

[IBK]

That's absolutely right. Top 4 is a by-product of ambition, not the ambition itself. In competing to be first (AND ONLY FIRST) you can run into teams that are better on the day or better over a season, that's a fact of life. So you might end up second best, or even third. But you were always striving to win.

Arsenal has sold a bag of expensive shit to the fans that makes it admirable to hang around the big table and see if enough scraps can be accumulated to make a meal. That "coveted" 4th place that, somehow, on the back of being 20 or 30 points adrift of the eventual winners, 13 losses later, 40 fewer goals scored, an embarrassing goal difference, makes it progress to limp in 5th having puked in terror at every challenge. It's actually a shameful season piled on a rotten mound of prior average to shameful seasons going back a decade.

I don't think it's all down to Arteta either. When Wenger left we needed somebody to come in and install the basics, particularly with the defence. Arteta has achieved that much at least, but again some fans see this as an achievement rather than repair work and the absolute minimum that should be expected. He's also working with significantly inferior players as the standard of the game in general drops inversely proportional to the obscene cash fire-hosed at kids who are financially successful beyond their wildest dreams before they've achieved anything at all. It must be hard going trying to manage such excess and keep bloated egos hungry for a fight.

Is that what Klopp possesses? The ability to motivate his troops to leave their caviar littered harems and fight for a sporting concept? Is that what Arteta lacks? That Newcastle game was unbelievable. After ten years, to still be walking onto a pitch and lying down like that. Is there a single sign anywhere at the club to suggest it won't happen again and again when the chips are down? I don't think so. There might be a plan and the plan might be winding through its foundation stages. But does that plan involve leaders and fighting spirit and the "impossible" goals Wenger would set when he still had the heart for it?

We've gone from "go the entire season unbeaten" (from which obvious by-products materialise) to "Top 4 Trophy". That's quite the cultural shift. Sure, we know WHY we need to be in the CL - cash. Which is all that competition is about these days (when it used to be about champions facing champions). But what's that got to do with the nature of sport itself and fighting for each and every victory that, cumulatively, results in success? CL is just a business thing, for the owners, for the balance sheet, for the wild player wages and so the fans can spend even more. It's a marketing thing. The real business though is the 38 game season that gets you there, where the goal is a sporting one - the title, first place. Get that right and the marketing takes care of itself.

Football is cyclical. It is also unpredicable. You reference the Invincibles. Well the subsequent decade was characterised by our ultimately unsuccessful attempt to compete with the best by building our new stadium - a project that was undone by the rise of the oligarch/state sponsored clubs while we tried to live within more conventional means. Then the influx of TV money rendered matchday revenue essentially meaningless and made the league more competetive. Market forces as much as any so-called lack of ambition has made CL football an essential stepping stone to success - not a 'trophy'.

Liverpool have bucked the trend by achieving success without the extent of financial doping that has bought it for Citeh and Chelsea. And this is the model we should be emulating - and one that we seem to be trying to emulate by having (admittedly late in the day) a defined strategy where transfers are made to fit the plan rather than defining it.

But where you and others are IMO wrong is ignoring context. There isn't a Gooner out there who is happy about our nearly 2 decades of decline. Contrary to your proclamation I think it is ridiculous to assume that any manager we have had during this period didn't want to win - least of all Arteta. But you can't simply wave a magic wand and be competing for the top trophies, and what most Arsenal fans are seeing ATM is some evidence at last of a foundation to build on (be this done by Arteta or his successor).

A shameful season? Really? It was a fairly ignominious fall at the final hurdle, but I think you do the efforts of the youngest and least experienced team in the EPL a disservice by writing off the whole season and by implication our players. Most of the more measured posters on here and in the real world have seen something this season that has been singularly lacking for a decade - and that is stability at executive and director level, and a cohesive plan on the pitch and in recruitment. You want to find us wanting by comparing us to perhaps the biggest success story in the league - go ahead - but I'm not sure where that gets us.

[IBK]

Context is important, we would all be happy to be where Liverpool are and many of us see them as a blueprint for a successful model for us to follow but they had to wait 30 years for a league title. The Red machine, the top club in the country.
It’s also important to remember how many different ways they tried to bring out success that ultimately resulted in failure.

Im no fan of Arteta because he doesn’t strike me as the person to bring us forward and I am hesitant about more time and money being wasted in the hopes that he irons out his flaws as a coach and as a person.

But things are ephemeral in football, there really is no point comparing us to twenty or forty years ago because the club and the football environment is completely different. There’s no sense in crying for the moon, we are where we are.

Therefore the only thing worth focusing on is where we go from here

Was writing my post while you posted this. Much more succint than mine! :gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

So many things had to conspire for that to happen. They showed it's possible in an era where what they did shouldn't be possible. But it was a one off, they didn't repeat it and won't repeat it.
Wenger's "go the entire season unbeaten" was said in September 2002. We were Champions, having lost only 3 league games. Even in that context it was ridiculed as a ridiculous claim.
From where we are now we are in no position to be talking about that sort of thing. Top 4 is a step towards where we want to get to. I agree with your thoughts about the CL, but unfortunately these days it's become "a thing", whether we like it or not. It's risible that Spurs players were celebrating in the dressing room yesterday having achieved it, but for all our disagreements we are pretty aligned about how awful the modern game is. It's where the top players want to play, it's where the money is and in an era where money and success are so tightly coupled it's where we need to be. But I agree it shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions and Wenger made too much of it.

TL;DR, we may be in the gutter looking at the stars but let's recognise that we are in the gutter right now and before we start planning a trip to Proxima Centuri there's a lot of work we need to do first.

The mindset of many fans is polluted with Wengerisms like "financial doping" and "Top 4 Trophy". Yes, there's financial doping. The same doping that Leicester faced when they did the "impossible". Wenger aimed to go a whole season unbeaten, which everybody knows can't be done. Until it's done. If Leicester's ambition was to be "realistic" they'd have finished mid-table and been happy with it. If Wenger's aim had diminished to a mere top 4 finish there would be no Invincibles. It's mindset and attitude. Nobody said it's easy. Nobody needs to claim it's even likely. But with the mindset of a winner everything is possible and even a failure can yield great benefits over the course of an honest effort. But too many fans have a loser mentality. The gypos "can't" be competed with. Not possible. We "can't" say we are challenging for the title. Not realistic. The fans know everything we can't do and that's just fine with the current owner and officials at the club because even a couple more points in a season of failure gets lauded as a step on the road to what? More weak-minded collapses of the type we are so familiar with?

So we got a few more points through whatever negative and depressing methods Arteta deploys on the pitch. It's a minor improvement. But did we uncover a leader? Who? Arteta, who admitted we were trounced by Newcastle as if, hey, shit happens? Did we develop a team spirit in adversity? Not according to Xhaka who came out and threw everyone under the bus admitting the team can't even follow a gameplan. Does anyone seriously think a few more points is an indicator of progress when these absolute sporting and competitive fundamentals are in disarray or absent entirely?

Dream on. Get ready for another 10 years of it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Context is important, we would all be happy to be where Liverpool are and many of us see them as a blueprint for a successful model for us to follow but they had to wait 30 years for a league title. The Red machine, the top club in the country.
It’s also important to remember how many different ways they tried to bring out success that ultimately resulted in failure.

Im no fan of Arteta because he doesn’t strike me as the person to bring us forward and I am hesitant about more time and money being wasted in the hopes that he irons out his flaws as a coach and as a person.

But things are ephemeral in football, there really is no point comparing us to twenty or forty years ago because the club and the football environment is completely different. There’s no sense in crying for the moon, we are where we are.

Therefore the only thing worth focusing on is where we go from here

That's easy. Nowhere. Should be obvious to any honest observer. When I hear the club and the fans pour scorn on the very notion of a top 4 "challenge" then it might be different. These "progressive" steps that lead us from one false dawn to the next are very useful for people who aim low. What are the chances that one step up leads to the next step up? Isn't it far more likely, based on the evidence, one step forward will lead to two back? Like we have seen again this season? Measure a few more points and a defence that has progressed to occasionally being able to defend against throwing away even the limited ambition of an also-ran finish and the cash so craved, an ambition that was in our hand once, twice, three times and blown with complete consistency in failure and it places things nicely into context.

[Niall_Quinn]

Football is cyclical. It is also unpredicable. You reference the Invincibles. Well the subsequent decade was characterised by our ultimately unsuccessful attempt to compete with the best by building our new stadium - a project that was undone by the rise of the oligarch/state sponsored clubs while we tried to live within more conventional means. Then the influx of TV money rendered matchday revenue essentially meaningless and made the league more competetive. Market forces as much as any so-called lack of ambition has made CL football an essential stepping stone to success - not a 'trophy'.

Liverpool have bucked the trend by achieving success without the extent of financial doping that has bought it for Citeh and Chelsea. And this is the model we should be emulating - and one that we seem to be trying to emulate by having (admittedly late in the day) a defined strategy where transfers are made to fit the plan rather than defining it.

But where you and others are IMO wrong is ignoring context. There isn't a Gooner out there who is happy about our nearly 2 decades of decline. Contrary to your proclamation I think it is ridiculous to assume that any manager we have had during this period didn't want to win - least of all Arteta. But you can't simply wave a magic wand and be competing for the top trophies, and what most Arsenal fans are seeing ATM is some evidence at last of a foundation to build on (be this done by Arteta or his successor).

A shameful season? Really? It was a fairly ignominious fall at the final hurdle, but I think you do the efforts of the youngest and least experienced team in the EPL a disservice by writing off the whole season and by implication our players. Most of the more measured posters on here and in the real world have seen something this season that has been singularly lacking for a decade - and that is stability at executive and director level, and a cohesive plan on the pitch and in recruitment. You want to find us wanting by comparing us to perhaps the biggest success story in the league - go ahead - but I'm not sure where that gets us.

You missed the one thing I was actually talking about - mindset. Aim low and you get low. Aim high and you might still get low. but it's not a self fulfilling prophecy. Those two Newcastle lads in the middle showed what kind of attitude and application it takes to succeed. They probably won't be there once moneybags comes in and starts throwing cheques around. But in the particular match they bossed our mincing charlies and all the comparisons on paper and what is possible and what is likely went out the window. That's the real context. Those with guts can win, those without never can. Name a single, gutless triumph in any sport. The habitual collapse can't be explained away so easily. It continues to say everything about this club. It tells us what we have known for a long time. I see no sign of that changing based on evidence. What I do hear is a lot of BS about players being tired, overused, burnt out, etc, etc. How so? the ambitious clubs played how many more matches? I hear about injuries too, as if no other club suffered them.

No. It's the mindset. All wrong and defended by too many fans, whether they are happy about it or not.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The mindset of many fans is polluted with Wengerisms like "financial doping" and "Top 4 Trophy". Yes, there's financial doping. The same doping that Leicester faced when they did the "impossible". Wenger aimed to go a whole season unbeaten, which everybody knows can't be done. Until it's done. If Leicester's ambition was to be "realistic" they'd have finished mid-table and been happy with it. If Wenger's aim had diminished to a mere top 4 finish there would be no Invincibles. It's mindset and attitude. Nobody said it's easy. Nobody needs to claim it's even likely. But with the mindset of a winner everything is possible and even a failure can yield great benefits over the course of an honest effort. But too many fans have a loser mentality. The gypos "can't" be competed with. Not possible. We "can't" say we are challenging for the title. Not realistic. The fans know everything we can't do and that's just fine with the current owner and officials at the club because even a couple more points in a season of failure gets lauded as a step on the road to what? More weak-minded collapses of the type we are so familiar with?

So we got a few more points through whatever negative and depressing methods Arteta deploys on the pitch. It's a minor improvement. But did we uncover a leader? Who? Arteta, who admitted we were trounced by Newcastle as if, hey, shit happens? Did we develop a team spirit in adversity? Not according to Xhaka who came out and threw everyone under the bus admitting the team can't even follow a gameplan. Does anyone seriously think a few more points is an indicator of progress when these absolute sporting and competitive fundamentals are in disarray or absent entirely?

Dream on. Get ready for another 10 years of it.

13 losses & 2 drawers.

after conceding first, our stats were:

0 games won
0 goals scored.

What a very depressing state of affairs, if we cant even muster the ability to stage a fight back when it doesn't go "according to plan" (i use that term loosely of course)

But hey - progress :shrug:

[IBK]

The mindset of many fans is polluted with Wengerisms like "financial doping" and "Top 4 Trophy". Yes, there's financial doping. The same doping that Leicester faced when they did the "impossible". Wenger aimed to go a whole season unbeaten, which everybody knows can't be done. Until it's done. If Leicester's ambition was to be "realistic" they'd have finished mid-table and been happy with it. If Wenger's aim had diminished to a mere top 4 finish there would be no Invincibles. It's mindset and attitude. Nobody said it's easy. Nobody needs to claim it's even likely. But with the mindset of a winner everything is possible and even a failure can yield great benefits over the course of an honest effort. But too many fans have a loser mentality. The gypos "can't" be competed with. Not possible. We "can't" say we are challenging for the title. Not realistic. The fans know everything we can't do and that's just fine with the current owner and officials at the club because even a couple more points in a season of failure gets lauded as a step on the road to what? More weak-minded collapses of the type we are so familiar with?

So we got a few more points through whatever negative and depressing methods Arteta deploys on the pitch. It's a minor improvement. But did we uncover a leader? Who? Arteta, who admitted we were trounced by Newcastle as if, hey, shit happens? Did we develop a team spirit in adversity? Not according to Xhaka who came out and threw everyone under the bus admitting the team can't even follow a gameplan. Does anyone seriously think a few more points is an indicator of progress when these absolute sporting and competitive fundamentals are in disarray or absent entirely?

Dream on. Get ready for another 10 years of it.

You don't get it mate. The ambition isn't to be realistic. Being realistic is acknowledging that there's no magic wand to take us back to where we were in 2004. If you think Arteta was happy with Newcastle, then you haven't read what he has had to say. It was obvious that he and the whole team were as gutted as we fans were by how it went down. The season's close was down to a team running on fumes who were clearly affected by pressure, not a loser mentality. It happens to the best of teams on occasion - look at the league winners in their CL Semi for example.

You say Arteta isn't a leader. I would counter that by arguing that his young team are clearly playing for him and have been all season. Being overwhelmed by the occasion with a half fit team at St James' Park doesn't change that, or suggest that there's no team spirit. There clearly is if you have watched us play all season. If you don't rate Arteta or his methods that's fine, but don't conflate a lack of ambition with this.

[IBK]

13 losses & 2 drawers.

after conceding first, our stats were:

0 games won
0 goals scored.

What a very depressing state of affairs, if we cant even muster the ability to stage a fight back when it doesn't go "according to plan" (i use that term loosely of course)

But hey - progress :shrug:

You can use stats in any way you want though. We were equal 3rd in terms of games won this season. You could therefore point to a succesful game plan in going ahead and then defending leads. but this of course wouldn't fit your agenda...Again I am trying to go for balance, not claiming that there weren't flaws.

[Niall_Quinn]

You don't get it mate. The ambition isn't to be realistic. Being realistic is acknowledging that there's no magic wand to take us back to where we were in 2004. If you think Arteta was happy with Newcastle, then you haven't read what he has had to say. It was obvious that he and the whole team were as gutted as we fans were by how it went down. The season's close was down to a team running on fumes who were clearly affected by pressure, not a loser mentality. It happens to the best of teams on occasion - look at the league winners in their CL Semi for example.

You say Arteta isn't a leader. I would counter that by arguing that his young team are clearly playing for him and have been all season. Being overwhelmed by the occasion with a half fit team at St James' Park doesn't change that, or suggest that there's no team spirit. There clearly is if you have watched us play all season. If you don't rate Arteta or his methods that's fine, but don't conflate a lack of ambition with this.

That team showed NOTHING, anywhere on the pitch. They simply didn't turn up to a crucial game. Maybe they were tired, despite the light season, maybe they are young (so why were they running on fumes?), but to not turn up at all? If that was the first time it happened then you can call it and edge case. But that's what is almost guaranteed to happen when any recent team, old or young, is up against it. If we demand context then let's have some history with which to fill it. How many opportunities were there to close out that season, even with such meagre ambitions? And every single one missed? If that's anywhere near what we'd call an acceptable attitude and mentality we're in deeper shit that I thought.

How are the fans still making these excuses? Don't they get tired? Surely it should be us running on fumes by this late stage?

[IBK]

That team showed NOTHING, anywhere on the pitch. They simply didn't turn up to a crucial game. Maybe they were tired, despite the light season, maybe they are young (so why were they running on fumes?), but to not turn up at all? If that was the first time it happened then you can call it and edge case. But that's what is almost guaranteed to happen when any recent team, old or young, is up against it. If we demand context then let's have some history with which to fill it. How many opportunities were there to close out that season, even with such meagre ambitions? And every single one missed? If that's anywhere near what we'd call an acceptable attitude and mentality we're in deeper shit that I thought.

How are the fans still making these excuses? Don't they get tired? Surely it should be us running on fumes by this late stage?

I said on another post that explanations are not necessarily excuses. We went into a game away against the team in 3rd in terms of 2nd half of season form missing key players; with Ben White; Saka; ESR and Gabriel clearly half fit; Tomi rushed back (because we had noone else) and broken during the game and carrying the scars of a NLD that was half given to Sp*rs by the referee. We shat the bed but shit happens...and it was a low point for a callow team. But IMO it is unfair to suggest that this team's prospects are hopeless because of this - or to ignore the progress made this season.

[Letters]

Find the posts and show me.

This is the post I was talking about:


There aren't 3 Bayerns in the PL. There's one PSG (great on their day, shit on other days), and a whole stream of pub shite. Utd, the chavs, Pool, the spuds? Are these the Bayerns? Don't think so. We get a new manager in and we might not be able to step it up to PSG level right away but we'll be mixing it with our fellow pubbers in no time flat.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4161&page=37

You were talking about City as the PSG - at the time they were miles ahead of everyone else, it was the season they finished on 100 points.
That's where you said we'd be mixing it with the rest in no time flat.
As I said, I didn't expect us to be quite so awful post Wenger. But what was your expectation at the start of this season in terms of league position? Let's look at what Arteta took over.
When he became our boss we were half way through the 2019/20 season After 17 games we had won 5. We ended up in 8th place with 56 points, we won 14 league games all season.
Liverpool won the title on 99 points. We did improbably win the FA Cup of course.
That's what Arteta took over. Anyone expecting a title challenge 2 seasons later is a loony. (That isn't a reference to your demand about a title challenge 2 years after Wenger left, I'm talking about the time between then and now).


I said a club of this stature with such a history should ALWAYS be challenging - not winning by divine right, but fighting.
Where does that level of expectation come from? The only times we have been consistently challenging for the title are the 1930s and the early Wenger years, 1998-2004.
Otherwise historically we've been all over the shop

https://i.ibb.co/CnsTgDr/Arsenal-League-History.jpg

Have you not read Fever Pitch? Hornby talks about the 70s and 80s and how crap we were for much of it. He talks about how in the run up to Anfield '89 he'd decided that the title was something that one either believed in or didn't, like God. Now football has changed a lot since then of course. In an era where the gap between the haves and have nots is bigger than ever we are certainly one of the haves. But I don't believe there has ever been an era where sides like City can buy up titles quite so brazenly. I have no idea why they aren't called out on it. Just because it was Wenger who said "financial doping" that doesn't make him wrong. It's not something he had to compete with in his glory years.
And yes, the Top 4 Trophy is a meme, it was a stupid way of phrasing it. But Top 4 is an important stepping stone in the modern game. You might not like it, I don't either, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

There has been some progress this season. There have also been some worryingly familiar failings. It certainly hasn't been a roaring success of a season but it's not an unmitigated failure either. Arteta gets one more season for me. Look at what he took over there's been some progress year on year. I don't expect a title challenge next season, the delta between us and the top 2 is still too big. But after the top 2 there's no-one much good this year, we're a good as anyone after those two and better than most. 3rd feels achievable next year, 4th would be acceptable.

It's perfectly consistent to want us to aim for the top but also accept that there are stepping stones along the way. We're a work in progress, we have a young squad, with the right additions we could push on next year. If we don't then fine, #ArtetaOut. But for me he's earned the right to try and push us on.

[IBK]

This is the post I was talking about:



http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4161&page=37

You were talking about City as the PSG - at the time they were miles ahead of everyone else, it was the season they finished on 100 points.
That's where you said we'd be mixing it with the rest in no time flat.
As I said, I didn't expect us to be quite so awful post Wenger. But what was your expectation at the start of this season in terms of league position? Let's look at what Arteta took over.
When he became our boss we were half way through the 2019/20 season After 17 games we had won 5. We ended up in 8th place with 56 points, we won 14 league games all season.
Liverpool won the title on 99 points. We did improbably win the FA Cup of course.
That's what Arteta took over. Anyone expecting a title challenge 2 seasons later is a loony. (That isn't a reference to your demand about a title challenge 2 years after Wenger left, I'm talking about the time between then and now).


Where does that level of expectation come from? The only times we have been consistently challenging for the title are the 1930s and the early Wenger years, 1998-2004.
Otherwise historically we've been all over the shop

https://i.ibb.co/CnsTgDr/Arsenal-League-History.jpg

Have you not read Fever Pitch? Hornby talks about the 70s and 80s and how crap we were for much of it. He talks about how in the run up to Anfield '89 he'd decided that the title was something that one either believed in or didn't, like God. Now football has changed a lot since then of course. In an era where the gap between the haves and have nots is bigger than ever we are certainly one of the haves. But I don't believe there has ever been an era where sides like City can buy up titles quite so brazenly. I have no idea why they aren't called out on it. Just because it was Wenger who said "financial doping" that doesn't make him wrong. It's not something he had to compete with in his glory years.
And yes, the Top 4 Trophy is a meme, it was a stupid way of phrasing it. But Top 4 is an important stepping stone in the modern game. You might not like it, I don't either, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

There has been some progress this season. There have also been some worryingly familiar failings. It certainly hasn't been a roaring success of a season but it's not an unmitigated failure either. Arteta gets one more season for me. Look at what he took over there's been some progress year on year. I don't expect a title challenge next season, the delta between us and the top 2 is still too big. But after the top 2 there's no-one much good this year, we're a good as anyone after those two and better than most. 3rd feels achievable next year, 4th would be acceptable.

It's perfectly consistent to want us to aim for the top but also accept that there are stepping stones along the way. We're a work in progress, we have a young squad, with the right additions we could push on next year. If we don't then fine, #ArtetaOut. But for me he's earned the right to try and push us on.

:gp:

[Globalgunner]

:gp:

Nah its a crap post. Full of the usual excuses.

[Letters]

Nah its a crap post. Full of the usual excuses.
So respond.
I mean respond to what I actually said.
You never seem to actually do that.

[I am invisible]

You can use stats in any way you want though. We were equal 3rd in terms of games won this season. You could therefore point to a succesful game plan in going ahead and then defending leads. but this of course wouldn't fit your agenda...Again I am trying to go for balance, not claiming that there weren't flaws.
Some positive stats that show we’re on the right track…

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/12617412/arsenal-fall-short-in-champions-league-race-but-they-are-well-set-for-future-success-under-mikel-arteta

Seems pretty black and white to me - we mostly need a goal-scorer (or two) to start making the most of all these chances we’re creating and we need to build out the squad a bit more so we can better rotate and cope with absences (particularly towards the end of the season where we really ran out of steam).

We’ve done the painful bit already - we’ve drastically cut the wage bill and slimmed down the squad, and we have plenty of room to immediately add to the squad under PL financial and player quota restrictions - so for once our problems are all clear and simple, with simple fixes that don’t require anything else to shift first. We’re good to go.

[Globalgunner]

So respond.
I mean respond to what I actually said.
You never seem to actually do that.

I prefer to ignore you. Waste of my precious time. Your creator made you the way you are for a reason. I'll let him do the heavy lifting of fixing your broken mind.

[Letters]

I prefer to ignore you.
That works for me.
If you don’t have the ability to respond properly then don’t bother.
Just cut out the insults and straw manning.

[Niall_Quinn]

Go and show those charts and lists of excuses to our tired and over-played (millionaire) lambs so they can feel better about failing to turn up and fight on 38 occasions. If people want to give them an easy ride, and even praise them for SOMETIMES doing their jobs, okay. But don't expect that to drive them onwards and upwards. Don't expect to see them using an easy out to fortify their characters. Which is what I'm talking about. Hence the discussions about everything but.

Btw, put a ticket price under each year in those charts.

[IBK]

Some positive stats that show we’re on the right track…

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/12617412/arsenal-fall-short-in-champions-league-race-but-they-are-well-set-for-future-success-under-mikel-arteta

Seems pretty black and white to me - we mostly need a goal-scorer (or two) to start making the most of all these chances we’re creating and we need to build out the squad a bit more so we can better rotate and cope with absences (particularly towards the end of the season where we really ran out of steam).

We’ve done the painful bit already - we’ve drastically cut the wage bill and slimmed down the squad, and we have plenty of room to immediately add to the squad under PL financial and player quota restrictions - so for once our problems are all clear and simple, with simple fixes that don’t require anything else to shift first. We’re good to go.

Thnaks for that mate. The stats show an undoubted direction of travel. We all want Arsenal to be successful and I get the frustration felt by some, but I believe in the capacity of this young team and manager to push on, and I feel that the platform from which to push on is much more solid than it has been for years.

[IBK]

Saw this in the Arsenal season review in i Newspaper:

As for Arteta, is it fair to say that there are still at least as many questions as answers? He has evidently built a platform on which something sustainable is being developed, but whether that is linear enough or rapid enough to keep supporters and club officials sated (particularly given that it was Tottenham who pipped them) is not set in stone.

Don't think there could be a better 2 sentence summary of the debate on this thread...

[Marc Overmars]

The reason behind the need for haste now with this project isn’t just about bragging rights. For me it’s also about the fact that we have players now who would be coveted by other clubs. If we’re not in the CL soon do not be surprised if someone like Saka starts to consider his future, especially if he carries on with his rapid development. Liverpool are known admirers.

He’s our biggest asset and I hope we protect that by giving him a big deal.

[IBK]

The reason behind the need for haste now with this project isn’t just about bragging rights. For me it’s also about the fact that we have players now who would be coveted by other clubs. If we’re not in the CL soon do not be surprised if someone like Saka starts to consider his future, especially if he carries on with his rapid development. Liverpool are known admirers.

He’s our biggest asset and I hope we protect that by giving him a big deal.

Yes - I agree, and this is why for me Arteta has put himself under a bit of pressure now by just missing out on the CL this season. This would really have accelerated the project - both financially and in terms of our draw for the top players. If we do not make the same or greater improvement next season as we did this, and achieve top 4 then I think we will need to move on.

[LDG]

Yes - I agree, and this is why for me Arteta has put himself under a bit of pressure now by just missing out on the CL this season. This would really have accelerated the project - both financially and in terms of our draw for the top players. If we do not make the same or greater improvement next season as we did this, and achieve top 4 then I think we will need to move on.

This

He has this window (and the board need to support him), to add experience and depth. Asking for trust again at the end of next term if we haven’t stepped forward again is enough in todays game.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is why commerce rules the world. People actually do believe the marketing over their own eyes and ears. Arsenal fans must be pure joy to market to. Serve up failure after failure and call it progress, then sell them a shirt for seventy quid, underpants and a set of balls are extra and subject to extremely limited availability.

For as long as the fans enable this repetitive bullshit, there's no hope for this club. Who is MOST at fault?

The fans.

[Letters]

excuses.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/6d/0c/836d0ca698ca15536884dfb250360f09.jpg

[KSE Comedy Club]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/6d/0c/836d0ca698ca15536884dfb250360f09.jpg

:haha: I love that film

[Niall_Quinn]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/6d/0c/836d0ca698ca15536884dfb250360f09.jpg

I know. To you an excuse is an understandable and even admirable reason for failure. It definitely means something different to for me.

[selassie]

The reason behind the need for haste now with this project isn’t just about bragging rights. For me it’s also about the fact that we have players now who would be coveted by other clubs. If we’re not in the CL soon do not be surprised if someone like Saka starts to consider his future, especially if he carries on with his rapid development. Liverpool are known admirers.

He’s our biggest asset and I hope we protect that by giving him a big deal.

Aye, I agree with this. Could be others too soon like Odegaard and maybe Martinelli. We need to add quality to the team / squad this summer, players that will improve the starting XI. Arteta cannot hide behind the young team tag next season, it won't wash.

[Letters]

To you an excuse is an understandable and even admirable reason for failure.
Understandable and - this is the key point - true. Certainly not admirable.
It's not an excuse to say that we have failed to win the title because clubs like City have bought up many of the major trophies over the last 2 decades.
That does not mean there have been no failings, of course there have. And it doesn't excuse them.

[Niall_Quinn]

You could say three, but in reality it was FIVE. Five opportunities to achieve the bare minimum. And they failed. Whatever spin you put on it, there were five fences to jump and they fell at every one. Fucking incredible but certainly not unbelievable, and definitely not unexpected. See my posts BEFORE each game. Too predictable.

There's the reality, minus all excuses, apologies an explanations.

In sport there are winners and losers, else it's not sport.

Anyone care to guess where Arsenal falls, apart from the lightest challenge?

Character is not built by accepting defeat. It is built by standing back up and turning that defeat into victory. There is no other way to progress. All progression requires failure or nothing can be measured. But of you fail every time, then you are not on the path of progression.

[Globalgunner]

Incredible that someone will sit down to start writing epistles to explain why Arsenal cannot compete at the highest level. I mean really WTF!

[Letters]

See my posts BEFORE each game. Too predictable.
I looked in the match threads. I saw one before Chelsea where you prophesied a freak win.
And before Newcastle you said we'd probably get a draw.
You said before the Everton game that our result would depend on the Spurs result, which makes no sense given the games were played at the same time.
(For me we were always going to beat Everton because it was a pretty meaningless game, Norwich are properly awful and were never going to offer the likes of Son and Kane much resistance).

I didn't see anything from you before Man Utd or West Ham - must win games which we did win. Or Southampton and Brighton where we fell flat on our stupid faces. Once again I think you're giving yourselves a bit too much credit as a wise seer. But I only looked in the match threads so maybe I missed something.


All progression requires failure or nothing can be measured. But of you fail every time, then you are not on the path of progression.
They didn't fail every time. There were some must win games - I've highlighted some above - where we did win. We ground out results in games where the previous season we'd have drawn or lost. It's a tiny step forward. Maybe not as big a one as we'd have liked, but it's enough to give Arteta another season, for me. If you disagree then OK, that's where the debate lies. But before the season started you made no prediction about where we would end up, so I don't know by which metric you are assessing the end result.

[Letters]

You said before the Everton game that our result would depend on the Spurs result, which makes no sense given the games were played at the same time.
I really should have made an excellent joke there about quantum entanglement there.
Call myself a geek? :doh:

[Niall_Quinn]

I looked in the match threads. I saw one before Chelsea where you prophesied a freak win.
And before Newcastle you said we'd probably get a draw.
You said before the Everton game that our result would depend on the Spurs result, which makes no sense given the games were played at the same time.
(For me we were always going to beat Everton because it was a pretty meaningless game, Norwich are properly awful and were never going to offer the likes of Son and Kane much resistance).

I didn't see anything from you before Man Utd or West Ham - must win games which we did win. Or Southampton and Brighton where we fell flat on our stupid faces. Once again I think you're giving yourselves a bit too much credit as a wise seer. But I only looked in the match threads so maybe I missed something.


They didn't fail every time. There were some must win games - I've highlighted some above - where we did win. We ground out results in games where the previous season we'd have drawn or lost. It's a tiny step forward. Maybe not as big a one as we'd have liked, but it's enough to give Arteta another season, for me. If you disagree then OK, that's where the debate lies. But before the season started you made no prediction about where we would end up, so I don't know by which metric you are assessing the end result.

Undercoat and double paint job. Nice. Failure is progress.

[Letters]

Unless you define a target then you can't assess whether you failed to hit it. There was a thread about season predictions.
You didn't make any other than a sarcastic comment about us making money (which, to be fair, you were correct about - how could anyone have possibly predicted that?).
I did make a prediction. I thought we'd finish 6th. My reasoning was:
The top 2 are miles above us, no chance of finishing above them this season.
I put Chelsea in the same category - I mean, they won the CL. They did finish above us but not by as much as I thought they would.
So that leaves one spot in the Top 4 and I didn't think we would get it ahead of Spurs or Utd. I was right and wrong respectively. Spurs did pretty much what I thought they would. Utd crashed and burned in a way I didn't expect.
But it's 8 points and 3 league positions better than we were last year. It's some progress. And there are signs we look more coherent as a team. It's enough, for me, for now. But it needs to continue.
How about you stick your neck out when we have the season predictions thread for next season, make some specific predictions. Then we'll see what a wise seer you actually are.

[selassie]

You could say three, but in reality it was FIVE. Five opportunities to achieve the bare minimum. And they failed. Whatever spin you put on it, there were five fences to jump and they fell at every one. Fucking incredible but certainly not unbelievable, and definitely not unexpected. See my posts BEFORE each game. Too predictable.

There's the reality, minus all excuses, apologies an explanations.

In sport there are winners and losers, else it's not sport.

Anyone care to guess where Arsenal falls, apart from the lightest challenge?

Character is not built by accepting defeat. It is built by standing back up and turning that defeat into victory. There is no other way to progress. All progression requires failure or nothing can be measured. But of you fail every time, then you are not on the path of progression.

How do you define progress? If last season we finished 8th and this season we finished 5th just outside of the top 4 do you define that as progress? Yes I accept that any position outside of 1st is the best of the rest, a loser...but what do you actually expect? For Arsenal to challenge for the title with the current squad they have?

[Niall_Quinn]

If I had the slightest confidence that "progress" would be built upon, followed up by steady improvement and working towards a defined goal that was not the coveted Top 4 Trophy, I could jump aboard the train to nowhere in the hope it would go somewhere. The tiny little bit all the apologists are missing is this team simply cannot compete at the higher level. And NOTHING this season has hinted at that changing next season, or the season after. I'm not saying we are the worst team in a genuinely terrible league filled with shit-kickers. We aren't. We'll likely hover around the also-ran bracket for the next decade or so, or until Kroenke gets bored. Maybe a 4th place here and there, with zero prospect of actually challenging for the trophy that is the whole point of qualification (no, we'll instead pretend qualification itself is the trophy). Maybe a stunning and brave 5th or 6th sprinkled in. Dare I say it? Maybe a 3rd? It all depends on the other teams. In a good year, where everyone else is especially shit, we could stumble into an exciting false dawn. In a bad year, where opponents have their shit together (even barely), well we just saw that as we lost out on our pathetic ambitions to a tragically woeful spuds mob.

If you;re telling me this great rise in the ranks is based on a plan coming together that sees us going from strength to strength, then I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

[selassie]

If I had the slightest confidence that "progress" would be built upon, followed up by steady improvement and working towards a defined goal that was not the coveted Top 4 Trophy, I could jump aboard the train to nowhere in the hope it would go somewhere. The tiny little bit all the apologists are missing is this team simply cannot compete at the higher level. And NOTHING this season has hinted at that changing next season, or the season after. I'm not saying we are the worst team in a genuinely terrible league filled with shit-kickers. We aren't. We'll likely hover around the also-ran bracket for the next decade or so, or until Kroenke gets bored. Maybe a 4th place here and there, with zero prospect of actually challenging for the trophy that is the whole point of qualification (no, we'll instead pretend qualification itself is the trophy). Maybe a stunning and brave 5th or 6th sprinkled in. Dare I say it? Maybe a 3rd? It all depends on the other teams. In a good year, where everyone else is especially shit, we could stumble into an exciting false dawn. In a bad year, where opponents have their shit together (even barely), well we just saw that as we lost out on our pathetic ambitions to a tragically woeful spuds mob.

If you;re telling me this great rise in the ranks is based on a plan coming together that sees us going from strength to strength, then I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

Fair enough, if you don't think we have made any progress this season then that's up to you. We have made progress this season, the performances on the whole have improved, we have won a lot more games, though we still lose far too many for a side who harbours ambitions of being a top team. We are still a work in progress. If i am honest I'm not sold on Arteta and am not totally confident he can build upon this season so we are not totally in disagreement...but we are in a better place than we were this time last season.

I am going to judge us based on who we recruit this summer and then judge Arteta next season on a results only basis, this is what he should be judged on now, this is his team / squad now and it's taken him up until this season to weed out the garbage and rotten eggs. He just needs to recruit well this summer if he really wants to take this team up another level.

I am not telling you anything, I was merely asking you what you define as progress. I haven't at any point stated a great rise or anything of the sort...I agree with some of what you say, other bits I don't agree with.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fair enough, if you don't think we have made any progress this season then that's up to you. We have made progress this season, the performances on the whole have improved, we have won a lot more games, though we still lose far too many for a side who harbours ambitions of being a top team. We are still a work in progress. If i am honest I'm not sold on Arteta and am not totally confident he can build upon this season so we are not totally in disagreement...but we are in a better place than we were this time last season.

I am going to judge us based on who we recruit this summer and then judge Arteta next season on a results only basis, this is what he should be judged on now, this is his team / squad now and it's taken him up until this season to weed out the garbage and rotten eggs. He just needs to recruit well this summer if he really wants to take this team up another level.

I am not telling you anything, I was merely asking you what you define as progress. I haven't at any point stated a great rise or anything of the sort...I agree with some of what you say, other bits I don't agree with.

How many times have we done this now? Surely you already know what's going to happen in the summer?

[Niall_Quinn]

Anyway, football is officially dead now. Anyone who has seen Mbappe's new contract details will be aware there's nothing left except pure greed and naked commercialism. So Arsenal being set up as a vehicle to fleece a global fan base is the real progress, the real ambition and the sad endgame that I suppose was inevitable from the first minute Sky TV entered the room.

[Mac76]

Anyway, football is officially dead now. Anyone who has seen Mbappe's new contract details will be aware there's nothing left except pure greed and naked commercialism. So Arsenal being set up as a vehicle to fleece a global fan base is the real progress, the real ambition and the sad endgame that I suppose was inevitable from the first minute Sky TV entered the room.

Agreed, so you can leave the board now as clearly there's no point in discussing anything anymore...

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

This may be off topic but losing out on Top 4 has ALREADY given our rivals, namely the Spuds, a massive advantage and the damage has already been done.

Kane wants a new contract at Spurs, Minge Son was touted to go to Liverpool if Spuds had not gotten 4th place, now they are reportedly getting a budget of £150m+ for new players.

I also believe Conte would have gone if they had failed to get 4th and he is one of the few good Manager’s who can deliver.

And I have not even mentioned Newcastle (Billionaire owners), Chelsea (Billionaire owners) etc. etc.

Arteta and the average team we have at our disposal (who actually couldn’t be bothered in the run in) are to blame.

How the standards have been lowered at our once great club. 🌹

[Letters]

Arteta and the average team we have at our disposal (who actually couldn’t be bothered in the run in) are to blame.
Yes yes, we're average but Spurs - who were being touted as Champions Elect early doors and who ended up finishing 2 points above us - they're where it's at.
And I call bullshit on "couldn't be bothered". They're a young squad, Arteta left us too thin and when a few injuries piled up we didn't cope. I do blame him for that.


How the standards have been lowered at our once great club. ��
Compared with what? Historically the Wenger years (and the 30s) are the outliers

https://i.ibb.co/CnsTgDr/Arsenal-League-History.jpg

I might remind you that you predicted a 7th place finish and ending up below Spurs pre season:

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4952

The key thing is direction of travel. Has there been progress since last season? I'd say so.
Is it enough? It's always nice to have more, but it feels vaguely acceptable for now.
Will it continue? Well, there's the rub. But for me Arteta has earned the right to try.

[Letters]

If I had the slightest confidence that "progress" would be built upon, followed up by steady improvement and working towards a defined goal that was not the coveted Top 4 Trophy, I could jump aboard the train to nowhere in the hope it would go somewhere.
Well, honestly, none of us know if that will happen. You're acting like those of us who are more optimistic are confident that this is the start of "a project" which will see us sweeping all before us in a few seasons. I am far from confident about that BUT I do see a positive direction of travel. If that doesn't continue next year then ok, #ArtetaOut. The best thing about Arteta - or any Arsenal manager now - is that they're not Wenger. I mean that in the sense that they don't have all the baggage and legacy he does. If they're not delivering then they're easy to get rid of.


The tiny little bit all the apologists are missing is this team simply cannot compete at the higher level.
No-one is missing that. It's BECAUSE we can't compete at that level that I'm content enough with the progress this year. So long as it continues next year.
We were never going to finish top 2 this year, City and Liverpool are a level above everyone else. I put Chelsea in the same category - they did win the CL - but they've underperformed this year and we were closer than I expected. Utd underperformed in an amusing and unexpected way. Spurs and us are about the same level, but they do have Kane and Son up front and we...don't. So I'm not super-surprised they finished above us, I'm a bit surprised at how hard work they made of it. We finished roughly where I expected, a little higher actually. And compared with last year - which IMO is the only sensible basis for comparison - it felt like some progress. Not just in terms of points and final league position, just looking at how they play it felt like there was more shape, that they were playing as a team and fighting for each other and the fans. Yes there were failures, I do blame Arteta for some of that - letting Auba go without replacing him and other departures left the squad too thin. But I happen to believe that the progress we did make earns Arteta another season, especially as I feel like replacing him now would actually set us back rather than move us forward.


If you;re telling me this great rise in the ranks is based on a plan coming together that sees us going from strength to strength, then I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.
I'm not telling you that, I'm just saying that I think the direction of travel is the one I want to see. I want that to continue. I'm not super-confident that it will but I'm content to give Arteta another year to find out.

[Chippy]

Yes yes, we're average but Spurs - who were being touted as Champions Elect early doors and who ended up finishing 2 points above us - they're where it's at.
And I call bullshit on "couldn't be bothered". They're a young squad, Arteta left us too thin and when a few injuries piled up we didn't cope. I do blame him for that.


Compared with what? Historically the Wenger years (and the 30s) are the outliers

https://i.ibb.co/CnsTgDr/Arsenal-League-History.jpg

I might remind you that you predicted a 7th place finish and ending up below Spurs pre season:

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4952

The key thing is direction of travel. Has there been progress since last season? I'd say so.
Is it enough? It's always nice to have more, but it feels vaguely acceptable for now.
Will it continue? Well, there's the rub. But for me Arteta has earned the right to try.
I honestly do admire your loyalty and positivity for the club Letters, however:

You say that we have a young team and that we were tired because of injuries. Really?

We had no European football, and just one match in the FA Cup (dumped out by a Championship club). And they play on carpet every week.

Why didn’t we buy a striker in January to push us on when it was clear that Auba was leaving? And possibly one additional squad player for cover.

Yes, I predicted a 7th place finish, but if you put yourselves in an excellent position to get fourth, you go full throttle to do it! Not bottle it at the end.

You are correct about comparing History (I had a season ticket in the 80’s under Terry Neil and Don Howe, it was awful ☹) , however, we moved stadiums to compete with the so called “Big Boys”.

Unfortunately, that ended when we did move to the Emirates.

[Letters]

I honestly do admire your loyalty and positivity for the club Letters, however:

You say that we have a young team and that we were tired because of injuries. Really?

We had no European football, and just one match in the FA Cup (dumped out by a Championship club). And they play on carpet every week.

Why didn’t we buy a striker in January to push us on when it was clear that Auba was leaving? And possibly one additional squad player for cover.

Yes, I predicted a 7th place finish, but if you put yourselves in an excellent position to get fourth, you go full throttle to do it! Not bottle it at the end.

You are correct about comparing History (I had a season ticket in the 80’s under Terry Neil and Don Howe, it was awful ☹) , however, we moved stadiums to compete with the so called “Big Boys”.

Unfortunately, that ended when we did move to the Emirates.

I think injuries were a factor, and the thinness of the squad meant we weren't able to rotate much. And yes, the lack of activity in January was a big factor. I blame Arteta for all of that.
And I agree that while I didn't expect us to be in the mix for a Top 4 finish this season, once we'd got in a position where with 2 games to go it was in our hands we should have finished the job.
You're right about the stadium move - I think we were a bit unlucky there. I don't think anyone could have reasonably have predicted that it would coincide with the billionaires rolling in and hoovering up the biggest trophies. I don't think there was any option but to move and I'm pretty sure we'd be worse off had we not done it.

I just saw a positive direction of travel this season. There are still failings, we're nowhere near where I want us to be. But you've been around long enough that you surely knew that in the Wenger glory year they were the outliers, it was never going to be like that forever. Liverpool were dominant in the 80s and they had to wait 30 years for their next title, these things aren't guaranteed. Arteta gets one more season for me. Top 4 or bust.

[Globalgunner]

Every team we are supposedly in competition with to win the league. City. Pool, Chelsea will get stronger next season, all having far far better managers and players and more likely than us to get the top tier of players who could lift us as a team. Spurs, West Ham, Newcastle, Maybe Leicester are the real teams we are competing with and between us and them I dont see much of an advantage we would have as a desirable destination for the 2nd tier of players we would need. Are players around the globe seriously dreaming of playing under Arteta.

Eternal optimism can only take you so far until you are stomped on hard by reality. By Xmas the old the old optimists will be telling us to "Give him till the end of the season"

Some of you are like Charlie from the "Peanuts cartoon. Lucy holding the ball and telling you to run up and give it a swift kick.........Fooling you for the umpteenth time as she swiftly snatches the ball and you end up somersaulting in the air.

[Letters]

By Xmas the old the old optimists will be telling us to "Give him till the end of the season
That depends on where we are by Christmas. If the first half of the season is a complete car crash then I probably won't be saying that.
Ultimately you can only judge a season at the end - I never understand why that seems to be a controversial opinion around here when it's so obviously true. But if the first half of the season is a complete mess then I'll probably lose patience with Arteta.

All people on here are saying is that they've seen some progress this season. All I'm saying is it's enough for me to think Arteta deserves another season.
Given where we finished last year what were you exactly expecting this year and on what basis?

[Xhaka Can’t]

I fear for the team next season.

We have a threadbare squad that couldn’t cope with the demands of a 38 game season and early exit from both cup competitions.

Now we have EL to add into the mix next season. I think we’ll be fortunate to finish 5th or better next year,

[Letters]

Depends what we do in the summer.
We all agreed we needed to clear out dead wood. But it needs to be replaced with quality. If we don’t do that then yeah, we’re screwed.

[Bumble]

Depends what we do in the summer.
We all agreed we needed to clear out dead wood. But it needs to be replaced with quality. If we don’t do that then yeah, we’re screwed.

do you think we are going to get a selection of 1st choice players or pad out the squad with rotational ones. Obviously we need a 1st choice striker and that probably wont be top drawer had we made the CL.

Otherwise do we get a better back up right back, a left back who could challenge Tierney for first choice, another CM to usurp Xhaka. The four behind the striker seem settled and we arent in a position to have 2 quality players for each position as we dont have enough quality games to justify that.

So i would have a 1st choice striker, potential 1st choice left back, a strong CM and a back up right back. If Saliba returns then CB is ok with White, Gabriel, Saliba and Holding.

[Chippy]

do you think we are going to get a selection of 1st choice players or pad out the squad with rotational ones. Obviously we need a 1st choice striker and that probably wont be top drawer had we made the CL.

Otherwise do we get a better back up right back, a left back who could challenge Tierney for first choice, another CM to usurp Xhaka. The four behind the striker seem settled and we arent in a position to have 2 quality players for each position as we dont have enough quality games to justify that.

So i would have a 1st choice striker, potential 1st choice left back, a strong CM and a back up right back. If Saliba returns then CB is ok with White, Gabriel, Saliba and Holding.

We REALLY need Saliba to come home.

The rest of the centre backs are average and Holding is less than average.

[I am invisible]

We REALLY need Saliba to come home.

The rest of the centre backs are average and Holding is less than average.
They’re not average - they were just made to look average in the final third of the season when they lost both fullbacks to either side of them, Tomas Partey in front of them and were playing through injuries. Our first choice back 6 (inc. GK and Partey) are solid when they’re all fit.

I’m with you on Saliba, though - the kid looks an absolute unit and the competition will push all 3 CBs to another level. I also wouldn’t be surprised if we invested heavily in fullbacks again - that’s two seasons in a row now that have fallen apart because of fullback issues and we can’t be having a third.

[I am invisible]

do you think we are going to get a selection of 1st choice players or pad out the squad with rotational ones. Obviously we need a 1st choice striker and that probably wont be top drawer had we made the CL.

Otherwise do we get a better back up right back, a left back who could challenge Tierney for first choice, another CM to usurp Xhaka. The four behind the striker seem settled and we arent in a position to have 2 quality players for each position as we dont have enough quality games to justify that.

So i would have a 1st choice striker, potential 1st choice left back, a strong CM and a back up right back. If Saliba returns then CB is ok with White, Gabriel, Saliba and Holding.
It sounds like the plan is to build out a smaller group of around 22 players who have more tactical flex to them - as Clive on Arsenal Vision puts it, players who can do one and a half jobs. Players like Saka and Tomiyasu who can both do their primary job to a high standard, but can also play 2 or 3 other roles to a 7/10 standard. Saliba has a bit of that flex to his game, as do a lot of the players we’re being linked with (Jesus, Hickey, Zinchenko, Dimarco, etc).

It’s gonna be fascinating to see what we do this window - we have a core of 11 or 12 players who I think we should be building around, and we could take this team in any one of 3 or 4 different directions, depending on who we add to them. Really struggling to call it at the moment.

In terms of numbers, we’ve already trimmed the squad down from something like 28 or 29 players (way too bloated) to 19 (too lean), and I’m expecting more still to depart this summer (definitely Laca, maybe Pepe, Leno and Xhaka, maybe Cedric or Nuno) - I can easily see it being another summer where we see 6 or 7 new faces coming in. Easily. And even then I think we’ll probably need another summer and a further 2 or 3 new faces before the job is done!

[Chippy]

They’re not average - they were just made to look average in the final third of the season when they lost both fullbacks to either side of them, Tomas Partey in front of them and were playing through injuries. Our first choice back 6 (inc. GK and Partey) are solid when they’re all fit.

I’m with you on Saliba, though - the kid looks an absolute unit and the competition will push all 3 CBs to another level. I also wouldn’t be surprised if we invested heavily in fullbacks again - that’s two seasons in a row now that have fallen apart because of fullback issues and we can’t be having a third.

Totally agree with your full backs comment. Tierney and Tommy are made of glass. If Newcastle do in fact come in for Tierney as mentioned in the press for 40m, I would bite their arm off!

[LDG]

That Jed Spence would be well worth a punt. He was a moster against us in the cup

[Mac76]

Totally agree with your full backs comment. Tierney and Tommy are made of glass. If Newcastle do in fact come in for Tierney as mentioned in the press for 40m, I would bite their arm off!

And then knowing our luck he'll never get injured again

I know Tierney got injured in a no-importance Scotland game, but Arteta needs to learn to rotate more and rest players, he's to blame for some of the injuries

But yes, in order to rotate two good FBs are urgently required especially as we need to ditch Cedric and Xhaka of course who sometimes ends up at LB

Btw the fact Newcastle are looking to poach our players is a sign of things to come, if he goes what does that say about which club Tierney thinks is on the up?

[Niall_Quinn]

Agreed, so you can leave the board now as clearly there's no point in discussing anything anymore...

The leftie who isn't a leftie falls back on the typical leftie tactic - shut them up in case they say something obviously revealing to normal people but dangerously revealing to lefties. You leave if people posting bothers you so much. Snowflake.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, honestly, none of us know if that will happen.

Can you give a hint at how many years it's going to take for you to figure it out? I mean, it's a sure thing. A decade later, what are you holding out for?

[Niall_Quinn]

I honestly do admire your loyalty and positivity for the club Letters, however:

You say that we have a young team and that we were tired because of injuries. Really?

We had no European football, and just one match in the FA Cup (dumped out by a Championship club). And they play on carpet every week.

Why didn’t we buy a striker in January to push us on when it was clear that Auba was leaving? And possibly one additional squad player for cover.

Yes, I predicted a 7th place finish, but if you put yourselves in an excellent position to get fourth, you go full throttle to do it! Not bottle it at the end.

You are correct about comparing History (I had a season ticket in the 80’s under Terry Neil and Don Howe, it was awful ☹) , however, we moved stadiums to compete with the so called “Big Boys”.

Unfortunately, that ended when we did move to the Emirates.

I thought the 80's and Neill and Howe were fucking great. Yeah, the football was a bit of a drag but at least it was real men going at it, instead of pampered poofters. But the whole day out was what life was all about. Started on Friday night and didn't end until a sorry Sunday afternoon, waking up with ten times as many brain cells as Mac possesses in total having been wiped out.

And it cost about fifteen quid, maybe twenty if you were determined to do your liver. That included match entry.

Trains seemed to run on time too.

Was still great to see the like of Liam Brady strolling around like he owned the place, which he usually did.

Good times. Sad to see them used by fans making apologies for the cynical bullshit that masquerades as football today.

[Niall_Quinn]

Every team we are supposedly in competition with to win the league. City. Pool, Chelsea will get stronger next season, all having far far better managers and players and more likely than us to get the top tier of players who could lift us as a team. Spurs, West Ham, Newcastle, Maybe Leicester are the real teams we are competing with and between us and them I dont see much of an advantage we would have as a desirable destination for the 2nd tier of players we would need. Are players around the globe seriously dreaming of playing under Arteta.

Eternal optimism can only take you so far until you are stomped on hard by reality. By Xmas the old the old optimists will be telling us to "Give him till the end of the season"

Some of you are like Charlie from the "Peanuts cartoon. Lucy holding the ball and telling you to run up and give it a swift kick.........Fooling you for the umpteenth time as she swiftly snatches the ball and you end up somersaulting in the air.

I've posted up that video a few times. I don't think they get it. I think they take it as me being hot on Lucy. But it's the perfect analogy.

[Niall_Quinn]

Depends what we do in the summer.
We all agreed we needed to clear out dead wood. But it needs to be replaced with quality. If we don’t do that then yeah, we’re screwed.

I reckon we'll trigger Mbappe's buyout clause.

I fucking can't wait. It's going to be so great!

[LDG]

And yet here we all are

[Chippy]

I thought the 80's and Neill and Howe were fucking great. Yeah, the football was a bit of a drag but at least it was real men going at it, instead of pampered poofters. But the whole day out was what life was all about. Started on Friday night and didn't end until a sorry Sunday afternoon, waking up with ten times as many brain cells as Mac possesses in total having been wiped out.

And it cost about fifteen quid, maybe twenty if you were determined to do your liver. That included match entry.

Trains seemed to run on time too.

Was still great to see the like of Liam Brady strolling around like he owned the place, which he usually did.

Good times. Sad to see them used by fans making apologies for the cynical bullshit that masquerades as football today.

No, no. You misunderstood. The football wasn't great, however, those wonderful"proper" football days are gone forever. I agree with you.
We didn't have much money but you could always afford a few quid for football and a cheeky bag of chips! Not like today, you need to be loaded to pay the prices the shitty crooks have created. It is a Billionaire's playground who don't give a fuck about the fans. The Hill-Wood family would be turning in their graves.

[LDG]

The Hill-Wood family sold us out pal!

Thank you for your interest in our affairs.

[Globalgunner]

The Hill-Wood family sold us out pal!

Thank you for your interest in our affairs.

True sadly, but it was the son, not the father. All the board members post Dein need to get locked in a cage with a Bengal Tiger. they took the money when the American showed up. Worst part is Wiggy never sells. We are fked for a long time, at least until the old man dies. Maybe Jnr will be a bit more flexible. First order is still to dump the joker Arteta but the losers gave him a new 3 year contract. Probably afraid Barca would come poach their ink-tressed, golden manager.

Usmanov is lucky he sold when he did. I hope he didnt plunk the cash in a UK bank...if so, Ooops!

[Chippy]

The Hill-Wood family sold us out pal!

Thank you for your interest in our affairs.

I thought it was due to ill health.

Regardless, we were by far the best, traditional, family owned club. Their interest was THE Arsenal.
Now we have a bunch of yanks who know nothing about our club and tradition. So sad.

[Globalgunner]

I thought it was due to ill health.

Regardless, we were by far the best, traditional, family owned club. Their interest was THE Arsenal.
Now we have a bunch of yanks who know nothing about our club and tradition. So sad.

By the time Hill-Wood jnr sold out he was a minority shareholder and only a nominal chairman. He had no say except was he was told to say

[Letters]

I thought it was due to ill health.

Regardless, we were by far the best, traditional, family owned club. Their interest was THE Arsenal.
Now we have a bunch of yanks who know nothing about our club and tradition. So sad.

:gp:

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

I guess as the new season begins, this post may get a few more visits :lol:

I believe the title should read "When will Arteta AND EDU be sacked by"?

These things go hand in hand.

[GP]

Tuchel in

[Mac76]

I guess as the new season begins, this post may get a few more visits :lol:

I believe the title should read "When will Arteta AND EDU be sacked by"?

These things go hand in hand.

No it should be "By when should Arteta and Edu be sacked?"

Yours,

Grammar Police

[selassie]

Tuchel in

:d

[GP]

https://www.arsenal.com/news/arteta-named-pl-manager-month-august

[Mac76]

https://www.arsenal.com/news/arteta-named-pl-manager-month-august

it's confirmed then - we will lose all remaining games in September

[Globalgunner]

it's confirmed then - we will lose all remaining games in September

All the significant ones for sure

[selassie]

He's doing a great job TBF. We are playing some really great stuff and dominating pretty much every game, we play away like the home team. Still a few areas of the squad to improve but we have the makings of a great team IMO.

[Mac76]

good to see him give those players some minutes at the end, though i do wish he'd take Jesus off before the end in situations like that, he's so important to us

[HCZ_Reborn]

When Arteta joined the club, Xhaka told him he wanted to leave and he persuaded him to stay

Of course Xhaka could be lying, he talks about Arteta’s warmth

Warmth? He’s about as warm as Myra Hindley

[GP]

You've met him?

[HCZ_Reborn]

You've met him?

Oh I see, the inability to maintain eye contact, the lack of any individual personal relationship with his players, the awkward body language….that’s all for show and really deep down he’s extroverted and gregarious?

[GP]

All of that is in your head.

[HCZ_Reborn]

All of that is in your head.

No it’s not in my head, it’s what is abundantly clear to see

I’m not making any diagnosis, I’m literally describing what is there

I’m sorry you don’t like that. Personally I wouldn’t care about his personality type if I thought he was doing a particularly good job. It’s hard then not to see that someone who is demonstrably uncomfortable with dealing with people in one on one interactions, who has passive aggressive tendencies, who has a closed and defensive body posture isn’t then having a negative effect on those around him.

[IBK]

No it’s not in my head, it’s what is abundantly clear to see

I’m not making any diagnosis, I’m literally describing what is there

I’m sorry you don’t like that. Personally I wouldn’t care about his personality type if I thought he was doing a particularly good job. It’s hard then not to see that someone who is demonstrably uncomfortable with dealing with people in one on one interactions, who has passive aggressive tendencies, who has a closed and defensive body posture isn’t then having a negative effect on those around him.

Sorry - but if you donlt think Arteta is doing a particularly good job, you are watching a different team to the rest of us.

As for lacking interpersonal skills - this is a stretch when you consider how succesful Arteta was under the best coach in the world, and his ability to attract the likes of Jesus and Zinchenko to join us.

[Letters]

No it’s not in my head, it’s what is abundantly clear to see
You're pretty much the only one seeing it :shrug:
And you are drawing conclusions from a highly edited TV show.
It does give a peep behind the curtain but doesn't allow for the deep psychoanalysis which you are drawing from it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sorry - but if you donlt think Arteta is doing a particularly good job, you are watching a different team to the rest of us.

As for lacking interpersonal skills - this is a stretch when you consider how succesful Arteta was under the best coach in the world, and his ability to attract the likes of Jesus and Zinchenko to join us.

No the difference is your drawing your opinion from 7 games (6 realistically) I’m drawing off almost 140

Also why mention Zinchenko along with Jesus, I don’t know why he and quality belong in the same sentence. He doesn’t know what a left back does, he doesn’t get forward the only thing he does is maybe free up space for Martinelli

[HCZ_Reborn]

You're pretty much the only one seeing it :shrug:
And you are drawing conclusions from a highly edited TV show.
It does give a peep behind the curtain but doesn't allow for the deep psychoanalysis which you are drawing from it.

Deep psychoanalysis ??

:haha:

No it’s just called keeping your eyes only and noticing the bloody obvious, I don’t know where you work but if someone constantly couldn’t maintain eye contact….wasn’t good or was very hesitant about interacting with colleagues one on one and blamed other people for their own mistakes…would you conclude that person was a people person?

[Letters]

Deep psychoanalysis ??

Yes:


personality type


demonstrably uncomfortable with dealing with people in one on one interactions


has passive aggressive tendencies


has a closed and defensive body posture


The inability to maintain eye contact


the lack of any individual personal relationship with his players


the awkward body language


As a wise man once said, all of that is in your head. :good:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Arms folded is a defensive posture that tells people keep away that’s basic body language reading, the lack of fixed eye contact (often looks away from people). You find that when he sits down his arms are often folded, his legs close together this is all closed body language

Passive Aggressive - the way he dealt with Auba

Uncomfortable with one on one interactions - during eight episodes he never has more than brief interactions with players one on one, often the same with staff and when he’s interviewed he’s usually on his own. Even at home there is a distance maintained from his wife and kids
See his response when asked about how Wenger would go for a coffee with whoever was his club captain, the idea horrifies him.

None of this is deep psychoanalysis because apart from anything else psychoanalysis deals with what’s beneath the surface the pre and sub conscious - dream analysis and bullshit like that. I’m merely talking about what’s there on a plain surface level. I’m sorry we’ve become so detached as a society that we can’t read each other anymore but there’s nothing I’ve said that shouldn’t be apparent to anyone with any basic understanding of body language and behaviour.

I’m sorry to piss on your bonfire, but when I said I was deeply concerned by what I saw in that documentary it wasn’t hyperbole. To be honest I went in thinking i was just making assumptions about how stand offish, socially awkward and unfriendly he was….and for the first episode I thought ok maybe I’ve misjudged him but as you go further in the evidence is disturbing.

[Mac76]

Arms folded is a defensive posture that tells people keep away that’s basic body language reading, the lack of fixed eye contact (often looks away from people). You find that when he sits down his arms are often folded, his legs close together this is all closed body language

Passive Aggressive - the way he dealt with Auba

Uncomfortable with one on one interactions - during eight episodes he never has more than brief interactions with players one on one, often the same with staff and when he’s interviewed he’s usually on his own. Even at home there is a distance maintained from his wife and kids
See his response when asked about how Wenger would go for a coffee with whoever was his club captain, the idea horrifies him.

None of this is deep psychoanalysis because apart from anything else psychoanalysis deals with what’s beneath the surface the pre and sub conscious - dream analysis and bullshit like that. I’m merely talking about what’s there on a plain surface level. I’m sorry we’ve become so detached as a society that we can’t read each other anymore but there’s nothing I’ve said that shouldn’t be apparent to anyone with any basic understanding of body language and behaviour.

While i'm perfectly prepared to accept he's not the best man-manager - that much has been obvious from his failure to work with many players already - i think you need to apply a pinch of salt to what you see on 'AoN' - he may well be reacting to the presence of the cameras in the way he behaves.

[IBK]

No the difference is your drawing your opinion from 7 games (6 realistically) I’m drawing off almost 140

Also why mention Zinchenko along with Jesus, I don’t know why he and quality belong in the same sentence. He doesn’t know what a left back does, he doesn’t get forward the only thing he does is maybe free up space for Martinelli

- 1st season - FA Cup
- 3rd season - misses out on CL football by just 2 points with the youngest team in the EPL
- Currently has a team playing better than we have seen at Arsenal for more than a decade. Clearly able tactically. Has put together perhaps the most exciting collection of young players in Europe and build a solid platform for whoever manages us next season. Has restored some identity; a clear playing style; spirit and togetherness among the players and healed much of the rift between players and fans. Has made the Emirates a happy place to be again. Has cleared out most of the dross.

Not bad for a rookie manager.

This is what I am drawing on. If you want to ignore the progress that Arteta has made over the past 18 months then knock yourself out.

...and if you think Zinchenko is not quality, I'm afraid that says it all.

[Letters]

Even at home there is a distance maintained from his wife and kids
:lol:

You cannot be taken seriously when you post shit like this.
His wife makes fleeting appearances at best, it's a series about Arsenal's season, not Arteta's home life.
From the fleeting glimpses we do get you're making up this whole narrative about his relationship with his wife and kids.
Do me a favour.

This continues to be all in your head, no matter how many times you double down on it.

[Letters]

No the difference is your drawing your opinion from 7 games (6 realistically) I’m drawing off almost 140
Bullshit. No-one is doing that.

The season he joined we ended up:
W15 D14 L10 56 - 8th. He joined in December, our points per game that season up to the point he joined were 1.29, in the games he was in charge for it was 1.62.
And, as has been noted, we won the FA Cup beating City and Chelsea in the semi-final and final.

The following season our stats were:
W18 D7 L13 61 - 8th. Not great but some improvement points wise.

Last season our stats were:
W22 D3 L13 69 - 5th - I'd suggest this is a pretty decent improvement and I'd note that 69 points was enough for 3rd in the previous 2 seasons. The collapse at the end was disappointing but pretty much no-one on here expected top 4 last year.

This season...sure, we've had mostly easy games so far, but we are winning games we weren't winning last season. Obviously we don't know where we'll end up, there's a long way to go.
But anyone who can't see some improvement year on year just isn't looking. Not just in terms of points but in terms of style of play and a feeling that they're a team now and not just a group of players.
And it's still a young squad which has plenty of potential for improvement.

[Marc Overmars]

The progress has been slow and at times painful, there were plenty of times during his first 18 months where I wasn’t sure if we’d even finish in the top half. I actually think he was the coach who benefitted most from games behind closed doors, there’s no doubt it would have been incredibly toxic with fans in the ground and the clamour to sack him would have given the board a decision to make.

Now coming to the end of his second 18 months I can see with clarity what’s been happening. It was a total rebuild from back to front. Gone are the washed up players coasting on big contracts because the previous regime had no strategy and wasted a fortune on short term fixes. Now we have a hungry first team mostly made of players who were all signed under Arteta’s watch, the result is possibly the most functional Arsenal team we’ve seen in years.

Is it perfect? No, far from it. I fear for us if there is an injury pile up, which knowing our luck will happen at some point. We should have gone in on CM and maybe a winger too, but you can’t have it all I guess.

Things are much better now than the mess he inherited, how far can he take us I don’t know but I’m enjoying watching us again and it’s been donkeys years since I’ve felt that.

[mandela8]

The progress has been slow and at times painful, there were plenty of times during his first 18 months where I wasn’t sure if we’d even finish in the top half. I actually think he was the coach who benefitted most from games behind closed doors, there’s no doubt it would have been incredibly toxic with fans in the ground and the clamour to sack him would have given the board a decision to make.

Now coming to the end of his second 18 months I can see with clarity what’s been happening. It was a total rebuild from back to front. Gone are the washed up players coasting on big contracts because the previous regime had no strategy and wasted a fortune on short term fixes. Now we have a hungry first team mostly made of players who were all signed under Arteta’s watch, the result is possibly the most functional Arsenal team we’ve seen in years.

Is it perfect? No, far from it. I fear for us if there is an injury pile up, which knowing our luck will happen at some point. We should have gone in on CM and maybe a winger too, but you can’t have it all I guess.

Things are much better now than the mess he inherited, how far can he take us I don’t know but I’m enjoying watching us again and it’s been donkeys years since I’ve felt that.

Pretty much.

Arteta shouldn't have been given the job.

Arteta was very lucky not to be, and justifiably could've been, sacked.

Arteta is doing a decent job now.


All of those statements can be true. I definitely wanted him out. I think if he'd gone and a Conte, Pochetino, other experienced manager came in then Arsenal could be in the CL this season and a year ahead of where they are now. But he's still there and now making undeniable progress so I no longer want him sacked. I still don't like his favoritism, his aversion to others, his poor in game management and lots of other things but the good is now outweighing the bad.

The players clearly like him and many have said on multiple occasions how good he is one on one. That even goes back to his time at City, where many City players have said the same.

[Letters]

But he folds his arms :angry:
#ArtetaOut

[HCZ_Reborn]

While i'm perfectly prepared to accept he's not the best man-manager - that much has been obvious from his failure to work with many players already - i think you need to apply a pinch of salt to what you see on 'AoN' - he may well be reacting to the presence of the cameras in the way he behaves.

Wouldn’t he be on his best behaviour in front of the cameras, why would he pretend to be extremely insular and socially awkward?

[HCZ_Reborn]

- 1st season - FA Cup
- 3rd season - misses out on CL football by just 2 points with the youngest team in the EPL
- Currently has a team playing better than we have seen at Arsenal for more than a decade. Clearly able tactically. Has put together perhaps the most exciting collection of young players in Europe and build a solid platform for whoever manages us next season. Has restored some identity; a clear playing style; spirit and togetherness among the players and healed much of the rift between players and fans. Has made the Emirates a happy place to be again. Has cleared out most of the dross.

Not bad for a rookie manager.

This is what I am drawing on. If you want to ignore the progress that Arteta has made over the past 18 months then knock yourself out.

...and if you think Zinchenko is not quality, I'm afraid that says it all.


I see in your attempt to make a coherent argument you’ve pretended the 2nd season didn’t exist

The parallels between the second and third season are striking, we lost as many games we just drew fewer.

We failed to score in 11 league games in 2021/2022, we failed to score in 11 in 2020/2021

We had a goal difference of + 16 in 2020/2021, and + 13 in 2021/2022

Every time we seem to turn a corner we then go into a run of defeats, that’s the way it’s been throughout Arteta’s reign

And I’ll remind you that people have said exactly the same about Ramsey as you are now saying about Zinchenko. I don’t know if he’s a good player or not, all i know is that he’s not a left back and I’m not even sure what position is his best.

[HCZ_Reborn]

But he folds his arms :angry:
#ArtetaOut

You insisted it was in my head and I’m trying to explain basic body language to you that allows you to come to a conclusion about someone, a lot of our behaviour is done without thinking about it…it’s called having tells. I can assume you’ve never played poker in your life

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol:

You cannot be taken seriously when you post shit like this.
His wife makes fleeting appearances at best, it's a series about Arsenal's season, not Arteta's home life.
From the fleeting glimpses we do get you're making up this whole narrative about his relationship with his wife and kids.
Do me a favour.

This continues to be all in your head, no matter how many times you double down on it.


Compare Xhaka’s reaction to seeing his children and his wife to Arteta

Again what you seem to miss is that I’m not saying he should be sacked because he’s an emotional retard but that it’s abundantly clear that lack of emotional intelligence has contributed to what anyone else would see as a below average managerial record for a club like Arsenal.

I’m not saying he’d be a good coach if he was warm and a people person.

If we are assessing his role as a coach it’s far easier to point to continually poor transfer decisions, poor substitutions, falling out with players and inability to rotate his squad.

This whole argument started because it was asserted that I couldn’t possibly know Arteta was a cold person. Where as it’s abundantly clear

[HCZ_Reborn]

Pretty much.

Arteta shouldn't have been given the job.

Arteta was very lucky not to be, and justifiably could've been, sacked.

Arteta is doing a decent job now.


All of those statements can be true. I definitely wanted him out. I think if he'd gone and a Conte, Pochetino, other experienced manager came in then Arsenal could be in the CL this season and a year ahead of where they are now. But he's still there and now making undeniable progress so I no longer want him sacked. I still don't like his favoritism, his aversion to others, his poor in game management and lots of other things but the good is now outweighing the bad.

The players clearly like him and many have said on multiple occasions how good he is one on one. That even goes back to his time at City, where many City players have said the same.

Except I don’t think it’s clear the players do like him

Are we to ignore the testimony of every player who has left the club who said they had no relationship with the coach and were frozen out, and actually couldn’t understand what they’d done wrong.

The testimonies to Arteta are based on his tactical knowledge and how driven he is, they respect the fact he’s smart and understands the game well. I think that’s true, but I think in that lies an arrogance which leads him to think he’s more clever than he is and therefore we’ve seen galaxy brained tactical set ups and glaring blind spots in the transfer market

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have two seperate views on Arteta and actually I don’t think one informs the other

I don’t like him as a person, there’s a level on which I can relate to him not being a people person and preferring his own company. But I think the difference between us is I’m not arrogant enough to know that about myself and do a job where a level of being personable is required. So either Arteta lacks the capacity for self reflection or he’s monstrously arrogant.

But monstrously arrogant people often lack self reflection. I think he’s a coward, I think he’s spiteful and I think he’d be ok destroying the career of any player in service to his own ego. When I say I think this is purely my opinion…he gives me every impression of being a truly nasty piece of work.

But that’s not relevant to how he does the job, if I was happy with the job he was doing not only would I not be bothered about him being a nasty piece of work, I’d positively be very pleased about it.

But I’ve seen too many transfer summers where players were bought we didn’t need and positions were needed players in was ignored.

I saw a record last season of losing almost 90% of games where we conceded the first goal

Of losing almost a third of our league games, a goal scoring record of 165 goals in 103 games

I don’t care how we’ve flattered to deceive to find ourselves top, I don’t care that we’ve managed one solid performance three days ago in the entire time the cunt has been here.

The guy is a fucking fraud.

[Mac76]

Pretty much.

Arteta shouldn't have been given the job.

Arteta was very lucky not to be, and justifiably could've been, sacked.

Arteta is doing a decent job now.


All of those statements can be true. I definitely wanted him out. I think if he'd gone and a Conte, Pochetino, other experienced manager came in then Arsenal could be in the CL this season and a year ahead of where they are now. But he's still there and now making undeniable progress so I no longer want him sacked. I still don't like his favoritism, his aversion to others, his poor in game management and lots of other things but the good is now outweighing the bad.

The players clearly like him and many have said on multiple occasions how good he is one on one. That even goes back to his time at City, where many City players have said the same.

i wouldn't want Ponce or Conte tbh

[HCZ_Reborn]

i wouldn't want Ponce or Conte tbh

I’m not pining for another coach I haven’t even thought that far, I have no realistic expectation that a shoddily run club like ours will push Arteta when it’s time to do so.

Plus as I say I think he’s only the symptom of a much larger disease

Edu needs to go, Richard Garlick needs to go, Kroenke’s retarded son needs to go….that creepy child molester Carlos Cuesta needs to go

[Marc Overmars]

I have two seperate views on Arteta and actually I don’t think one informs the other

I don’t like him as a person, there’s a level on which I can relate to him not being a people person and preferring his own company. But I think the difference between us is I’m not arrogant enough to know that about myself and do a job where a level of being personable is required. So either Arteta lacks the capacity for self reflection or he’s monstrously arrogant.

But monstrously arrogant people often lack self reflection. I think he’s a coward, I think he’s spiteful and I think he’d be ok destroying the career of any player in service to his own ego. When I say I think this is purely my opinion…he gives me every impression of being a truly nasty piece of work.

But that’s not relevant to how he does the job, if I was happy with the job he was doing not only would I not be bothered about him being a nasty piece of work, I’d positively be very pleased about it.

But I’ve seen too many transfer summers where players were bought we didn’t need and positions were needed players in was ignored.

I saw a record last season of losing almost 90% of games where we conceded the first goal

Of losing almost a third of our league games, a goal scoring record of 165 goals in 103 games

I don’t care how we’ve flattered to deceive to find ourselves top, I don’t care that we’ve managed one solid performance three days ago in the entire time the cunt has been here.

The guy is a fucking fraud.

I agree the record when going behind was appalling, it was my biggest bugbear last year. Knowing that going behind in a match would almost certainly result in a loss was pathetic. We’ve already managed to match the one win we got last season after conceding first, so that’s something I guess. :lol:

Honestly man, I think your hatred for Arteta as a person has clouded your judgment to the work actually being done. No one is saying we’re on a one way ticket to the promise land but it certainly feels better than it was.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s honestly not clouded anything, I just don’t think I’ve seen anything that makes me believe we will finish top four.

Games like Sunday are nice but they are the exception. I don’t hate Arteta, that would be ridiculous I’ve never met him and he’s never done anything to me personally. I’m providing a character assessment based on what I’ve seen of him, and it makes me believe I wouldn’t like him if I did know him.

I don’t think he’s doing a good job it’s as simple as that, and it will take far far more than what I’ve seen so far to convince me otherwise.

If we beat Tottenham, get a draw against Liverpool, get results against Leeds, Southampton, Forest and Wolves….I won’t be too fussed even if we lose to Chelsea. I don’t give a fuck about the Europa league

Then I can say the horrendous record in the past is in the past and isn’t just a continuing pattern of a man who doesn’t know what he’s doing and who’s spite and stubbornness is bringing us down with him.

I don’t forgive easily, the United game was unforgivable….because it made me question something I’d never done with Wenger or Emery, gave me cause to believe he deliberately tanked the game. I can’t prove it, I never will be able to….but it’s the kind of thing a personality like I suspect Arteta has would do out of petulance.

[Letters]

Compare Xhaka’s reaction to seeing his children and his wife to Arteta


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlTrf6G7vLg

:tiphat:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlTrf6G7vLg

:tiphat:

The grownups are talking

Why don’t you sit and watch one of the Minion films with the kids get them to point out which one most looks like you

[Letters]

The grownups are talking

Why don’t you sit and watch one of the Minion films with the kids get them to point out which one most looks like you
That would work better if you weren't the one thinking you can infer details of someone's character down to his relationships with his family from a heavily edited reality TV show.
The clip explains why you're so full of shit. If you can't or won't engage with it then fine :good:

[HCZ_Reborn]

That would work better if you weren't the one thinking you can infer details of someone's character down to his relationships with his family from a heavily edited reality TV show.
The clip explains why you're so full of shit. If you can't or won't engage with it then fine :good:

Again none of this is complicated

If you were on camera for a documentary would you or would you not make the effort to present the best version of yourself especially in a section where your home life is being looked at. Yes I accept your point about documentaries being sanitised, but that’s the point….a sanitised version would not show him ignoring his own kids and barely being able to look at his own wife.

Maybe it was wrong of me to assume what appears so obvious would be so to other people but you’re acting like I’m saying this stuff now rather than stuff I highlighted as highly alarming at the time. Yes I get it we are all prone to hyperbole, but I’m very serious here. I’ve even spoken about it with others with a view to wonder whether he’s on the autism spectrum but that would be an unfair diagnosis which I am absolutely not qualified to make.

Honestly look through the thread, I note constantly about how I find his behaviour disturbing and people like here dismiss it because it’s just a documentary. Where as just a documentary would show the most sanitised version of him, it wouldn’t make him seem strange if he wasn’t.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’ll leave you with a review i wrote for the series some time ago. Looked at in isolation from my opinion of Arteta as a coach, it ardently points out what I regard as red flags about him as a person.


All or Nothing: Arsenal

This brought out the hypocrite in me, because I was very clear that I wasn’t in favour of this…I think the club is still very much at a crossroads and opening yourself up to ridicule in this way is just unnecessary.

However the bonnet was opened and I wasn’t about to avoid taking a look at the inner mechanisms.

So what did I learn?

Not a lot really, these documentaries are done for the purpose of drama rather than informing their audience. So the only insights you get are into the psychological make up of the people being interviewed.
And to that end the series was less about Arsenal football club and more about Mikel Arteta. Which was an interesting way to go when you’re dealing with someone who on the surface is not especially charismatic or interesting.
However what it does is leave you with several red flags, the players all seem of the view that Arteta is one of the most tactically astute people in the game.
But there’s no real personal affection, there is very little seen of him interacting with players on a one on one basis apart from a rather odd conversation with Cedric Soares about rote learning telephone numbers.
Even Edu seems to hint that what at least was missing in previous seasons was a personal relationship with the players.
Arteta’s body language betrays him, whilst he demands that a player look at him in post match bollockings he clearly finds eye contact difficult to maintain. There is that defensive body posture of arms folded and a sense that even outside of the club there really isn’t anything resembling close friendships.
That’s not a criticism, in fact I’m a very introverted person myself (people have noticed that I seem far less confident and at ease around people I see in person than how we might speak online)
For the life of me though I can’t see how that works in a job which requires you to be an extrovert with social skills and it’s not a lack of effort on his part either. He does try to interact with players on the training ground but it comes across as artificial and there seems to always be an air of condescension about him when he does.
Quixotic team talks that are largely a rambling shambles (and not helped by the fact that his basque accent tends to make him sound like he’s mumbling at times - although this was far more pronounced with Unai Emery) do not help his cause and although I’ve no doubt the players want to win for him their blank expressions betray the fact that when it comes to inspirational speeches they have no idea what he’s talking about (which again is better than having no idea what they are saying which is where they were with Emery)
When Wenger first came to Arsenal he would often go for coffee with his captain Tony Adams because he wanted to know the man as well as the player, and in a way a counsellor would be proud of gave Adams space to open up to him about being in recovery from Alcohol addiction which he had up to that point only admitted to himself that he had a problem.
Arteta seems to delegate a lot of these personal conservations he should be having to other members of staff.
Basic man management dictates that you need to understand your team, what their temperament is, how far you can push them to get the best out of them but mainly they need to also know who you are in order to trust you.
Arteta is the main focus of this documentary and we the viewer have no greater understanding of who he is as a person at the end of episode eight than we do at the start of episode one.

[selassie]

All I have taken from the past few pages is that HCZ wants Arteta sacked and Xhaka dropped, pretty much like any thread really! ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

All I have taken from the past few pages is that HCZ wants Arteta sacked and Xhaka dropped, pretty much like any thread really! ;)

That’s not untrue

[selassie]

That’s not untrue

:d

[mandela8]

Really have to be looking to get Steve Clarke in now to take over.

Doubt he'd be tempted to leave his current role though, tbf

[GP]

Behave

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Pretty much.

Arteta shouldn't have been given the job.

Arteta was very lucky not to be, and justifiably could've been, sacked.

Arteta is doing a decent job now.


All of those statements can be true. I definitely wanted him out. I think if he'd gone and a Conte, Pochetino, other experienced manager came in then Arsenal could be in the CL this season and a year ahead of where they are now. But he's still there and now making undeniable progress so I no longer want him sacked. I still don't like his favoritism, his aversion to others, his poor in game management and lots of other things but the good is now outweighing the bad.

The players clearly like him and many have said on multiple occasions how good he is one on one. That even goes back to his time at City, where many City players have said the same.

Agree with most of your assessment here except the part where you say he is currently doing a decent job....I would say for a Rookie who has had 3 years and 100 of millions poured in (with the undoubted easy fixtures we have had), he's only doing the least he should be doing to avoid the sack after last year's self inflicted horror show.

I can't help but shake the feeling that if we'd given the job to a more experienced hand and continued on the recruitment drive we've had post Emery, we would likely be in a better place. Oh well, hopefully lego man proves me wrong.

[mandela8]

Agree with most of your assessment here except the part where you say he is currently doing a decent job....I would say for a Rookie who has had 3 years and 100 of millions poured in (with the undoubted easy fixtures we have had), he's only doing the least he should be doing to avoid the sack after last year's self inflicted horror show.

I can't help but shake the feeling that if we'd given the job to a more experienced hand and continued on the recruitment drive we've had post Emery, we would likely be in a better place. Oh well, hopefully lego man proves me wrong.

Yep. Absolutely no issue with that. Completely agree.

I also don't think he's entitled to any "it's young team" leeway either.

[selassie]

Pressure is on him for us to win tomorrow and play well. They gave us a real hiding at their place and the end of last season, payback time.

[mandela8]

Pressure is on him for us to win tomorrow and play well. They gave us a real hiding at their place and the end of last season, payback time.

Tbf, they got a lucky penalty decision and a pretty weak red card which ruined the game.

[Mac76]

Tbf, they got a lucky penalty decision and a pretty weak red card which ruined the game.

which is pretty much what you can expect every time in the NLD

Spuds would be the favourites to win in most eyes - we have beaten the weak teams this season but lost against an all-over-the-place Moan Utd

our team isn't streetwise enough to cope with these cheats - we know they will con the ref into at least one pel and also if they've any sense they'll target Xhaka as much as possible

we shouldn't go into it thinking about staying top of the table - that won't last anyway

A draw is fine to keep Spuds where they are - below us in the table - we shouldn't go chasing a win if it's 1-1 and a few minutes to go

[HCZ_Reborn]

which is pretty much what you can expect every time in the NLD

Spuds would be the favourites to win in most eyes - we have beaten the weak teams this season but lost against an all-over-the-place Moan Utd

our team isn't streetwise enough to cope with these cheats - we know they will con the ref into at least one pel and also if they've any sense they'll target Xhaka as much as possible

we shouldn't go into it thinking about staying top of the table - that won't last anyway

A draw is fine to keep Spuds where they are - below us in the table - we shouldn't go chasing a win if it's 1-1 and a few minutes to go

I wouldn’t make them the favourites to win, they have a lousy record at the Emirates and the only reason they got a draw against Chelsea was because a) Chelsea couldn’t take their chances and b) The cheating went unpunished.

They’ve been poor this season…yes they scored loads against Leicester but Leicester are atrocious defensively…they gifted Spurs at least three of those goals

They’ve lost ten times from the sixteen times they’ve come here in the league and won only once. They are not great defensively either.

They are capable of getting a draw but can’t see them winning

I think we will concede, but I think if we keep our goal scoring record I think we should beat them

[Mac76]

maybe, but i'm always pessimistic about the NLD and given the stakes i just worry we'll get carried away and they'll get the cynical win - hope you're right though

[selassie]

Tbf, they got a lucky penalty decision and a pretty weak red card which ruined the game.

They got all the big calls but they were hardly lucky. It’s in the past anyway, tomorrow is all about securing 3 points nothing less.

[selassie]

I wouldn’t make them the favourites to win, they have a lousy record at the Emirates and the only reason they got a draw against Chelsea was because a) Chelsea couldn’t take their chances and b) The cheating went unpunished.

They’ve been poor this season…yes they scored loads against Leicester but Leicester are atrocious defensively…they gifted Spurs at least three of those goals

They’ve lost ten times from the sixteen times they’ve come here in the league and won only once. They are not great defensively either.

They are capable of getting a draw but can’t see them winning

I think we will concede, but I think if we keep our goal scoring record I think we should beat them

Yeah I agree with all of this. I’ll be disappointed if we don’t win tomorrow.

[Marc Overmars]

Never normally a problem at home against them.

Won’t be easy but should get a result.

[selassie]

I wanted Arteta out during that horrible losing run in COVID but i am fully behind him now. He has improved this team to the extent that we are believing again. There is still a way to go but let's be honest he is doing a really good job, that's not even in question anymore.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I wanted Arteta out during that horrible losing run in COVID but i am fully behind him now. He has improved this team to the extent that we are believing again. There is still a way to go but let's be honest he is doing a really good job, that's not even in question anymore.

I don’t like him or trust him, it will take a lot for that to change

But, it’s fair to say I’ve been happy with the results (and the performances) since losing at Old Trafford.

I’m delighted to see Martinelli flourish (he and Jesus should absolutely be playing for Brazil at the World Cup) and I have at this moment in time zero basis to call for Arteta to be sacked.

[Marc Overmars]

It’s early days but I think it’s become evident that we’ve levelled up.

All credit to Arteta for this turnaround. Honestly couldn’t see any way out of the mess we were in during the first half of his tenure but he’s proving me and a lot of others wrong.

[Mac76]

Overall i agree but i stlll think he needs to learn, no-one wil ever convince me that bringing Jesus and the others on during the EL game wasn't really dumb

[HCZ_Reborn]

Overall i agree but i stlll think he needs to learn, no-one wil ever convince me that bringing Jesus and the others on during the EL game wasn't really dumb

Well true, conversely I’d have to say I’d never find a coach for whom I’d agree with every decision they make. I thought starting Tomoyasu yesterday was dumb but it seemed to work, though it does make me wonder what the future holds for Tierney (who I still think is clearly our best left back)

Before the sham World Cup starts we have four away games (none of which I expect to be easy especially not Chelsea) 7 points from those four games would be acceptable to me. Add 3 from a game we absolutely should be winning at home to Forest and we are on 34 points from 14 games which would be an excellent return.

I have to say I think the pundit speculation over whether we will challenge for the title is really unhelpful, we won’t challenge but no one will….City have the title wrapped up. And if we finish third or fourth we will get the same pundits say we’ve bottled it, when even as someone who doesn’t like Arteta would be ridiculously harsh.

[Marc Overmars]

They’ve always got to create some sort of narrative but I don’t think any sane Arsenal fan believes we can seriously challenge for the league. The goal is what it was when the season started and that’s top 4. Maybe 2nd or 3rd could be in play given how Liverpool have fallen off a cliff but other than that City are just going to be far too strong to keep up with, if we’re anywhere near them in the spring then we would have done incredibly well.

Having said that, I’m intrigued to see how City get on at Anfield this weekend. Feel like they haven’t really been tested yet and I’m sure Liverpool will have a point to prove.

[selassie]

I don’t like him or trust him, it will take a lot for that to change

But, it’s fair to say I’ve been happy with the results (and the performances) since losing at Old Trafford.

I’m delighted to see Martinelli flourish (he and Jesus should absolutely be playing for Brazil at the World Cup) and I have at this moment in time zero basis to call for Arteta to be sacked.

Fair play. Trust is earnt I guess and until at the very least he gets us finishing in top 4 the jury is still out.

The performances this season have most definitely gone up a level or two, whether we can maintain that remains to be seen, but we do have a very strong starting XI with a small group of say 6 squad options who can come in and do a decent job.

Martinelli and Jesus are doing very well, but Brazil have bucketloads of top class young talent forwards such as Vinicus Jnr and Rodrygo at Real, Raphinha at Barca, in addition to the likes of Richarlison, Antony etc. I personally believe both Martinelli and Jesus should go to the World Cup but it's not a given.

[HCZ_Reborn]

They’ve always got to create some sort of narrative but I don’t think any sane Arsenal fan believes we can seriously challenge for the league. The goal is what it was when the season started and that’s top 4. Maybe 2nd or 3rd could be in play given how Liverpool have fallen off a cliff but other than that City are just going to be far too strong to keep up with, if we’re anywhere near them in the spring then we would have done incredibly well.

Having said that, I’m intrigued to see how City get on at Anfield this weekend. Feel like they haven’t really been tested yet and I’m sure Liverpool will have a point to prove.

Do you see a lot of sanity in our fan base?. I don’t. Don’t get me wrong I’m not targeting our fan base especially but football fandom is a panoply of delusion

They’ve even had to make joke videos on Paddy Power about angry Liverpool fans. Wanting Klopp sacked? I don’t even know where to begin with that.

Yeah next weekend is an interesting one, score draw screams out at me. City have shown they can be got at in defence but
they are pretty irrepressible going forward. 33 in 9 games is ridiculous

[Marc Overmars]

Fair play. Trust is earnt I guess and until at the very least he gets us finishing in top 4 the jury is still out.

The performances this season have most definitely gone up a level or two, whether we can maintain that remains to be seen, but we do have a very strong starting XI with a small group of say 6 squad options who can come in and do a decent job.

Martinelli and Jesus are doing very well, but Brazil have bucketloads of top class young talent forwards such as Vinicus Jnr and Rodrygo at Real, Raphinha at Barca, in addition to the likes of Richarlison, Antony etc. I personally believe both Martinelli and Jesus should go to the World Cup but it's not a given.

Yeah Brazil are absolutely stacked and I think they’re both playing out of their skin to make the squad. I do wonder if we’ll see a drop off if they fail to make it but at the same time them not going will be good for us after Christmas with that rest in their legs.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t think Richarlison has been that great since moving to Spurs and I say that as someone who rates him highly.

Don’t rate Raphinia that highly either

Antony? Yeah have to say he’s looked like a good signing for United even with the money they’ve spent on him

[selassie]

I don’t think Richarlison has been that great since moving to Spurs and I say that as someone who rates him highly.

Don’t rate Raphinia that highly either

Antony? Yeah have to say he’s looked like a good signing for United even with the money they’ve spent on him

I don't particularly rate Richarlison, certainly not above Martinelli or Jesus though Richarlison seems to be a main pick for Brazil and has done well for them.

Rapinha is a really good player IMO, more of a technical winger and less direct than Martinelli, but still a really good player.

Yeah Antony looks decent.

[Chippy]

This is not a knee jerk reaction because of tonight's game, but we have been shit for the last few games.
Tonight, we didn't get away with it.

Are the wheels starting to loosen?

[LDG]

This is not a knee jerk reaction because of tonight's game, but we have been shit for the last few games.
Tonight, we didn't get away with it.

Are the wheels starting to loosen?

Naturally they are. Are we expected to win every single game?

The point we stop winning (now) and don’t change anything becomes the focus.

If Arteta wants to take us places, he needs to be able to adapt quicker. He also needs a squad, beacuse if he is limted to playing the current 15 or so into the ground, then it’s unsustainable

[Marc Overmars]

We’ve had a near flawless start so a come down was inevitable. It’s about how we react now, we’ve got 3 league games left before the World Cup and need to put everything we’ve got into getting results from those games. It would be a shame to end this great start and go away on a sour note.

I know we need to dip into the squad more but I don’t see that many reliable options beyond the first 11 if I’m honest. Hopefully we’ve got a January target or 2 because this squad definitely needs beefing up.

[Letters]

I am famously scathing of people losing their shit after a billion wins in a row and then us drawing a game, but I am worried about the level of performance. There seems to be a particular trend of us dropping off in the second half of games which indicates a tiredness I don’t think should be there this early in the season.
We all knew squad depth was going to be an issue this season but there are already some worrying signs. All that said, you’re going to have dips in any season, hopefully we will get going again and rack up a decent number of points before the World Cup. That break could work for us this season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I am famously scathing of people losing their shit after a billion wins in a row and then us drawing a game, but I am worried about the level of performance. There seems to be a particular trend of us dropping off in the second half of games which indicates a tiredness I don’t think should be there this early in the season.
We all knew squad depth was going to be an issue this season but there are already some worrying signs. All that said, you’re going to have dips in any season, hopefully we will get going again and rack up a decent number of points before the World Cup. That break could work for us this season.

I don’t think anyone has been losing their shit. But last night was worrying…if Cody Gakpo understood the offside rule we would have been hammered.

[selassie]

Our performance levels have dipped from that early season burst. We are definitely going through a bit of a rough patch, the only positive with it is that we have actually won and drawn games we would probably have lost last season last night excluded.

We need to step it up though, going into the world cup in this form with more dropped points would not be great. Our run of fixtures after the world cup, is in my opinion make or break for the season.

[Mac76]

The problem is Arteta's failure to understand that players aren't robots and also his lack of nous.

Given we only need 1 point in the EL and had a home game against a not-very good side coming up, he should have saved our better players for the Zurich game instead of panicking and throwing them all on last night.

Yes our squad is thin but players need regular game time to be in tune so his playing the same first eleven all the time has guaranteed that the rest of the players are rusty and key players are playing too many minutes

The only way his actions make sense are if it's all a plan to make the Board give him a lot of money to spend in January

[IBK]

The problem is Arteta's failure to understand that players aren't robots and also his lack of nous.

Given we only need 1 point in the EL and had a home game against a not-very good side coming up, he should have saved our better players for the Zurich game instead of panicking and throwing them all on last night.

Yes our squad is thin but players need regular game time to be in tune so his playing the same first eleven all the time has guaranteed that the rest of the players are rusty and key players are playing too many minutes

The only way his actions make sense are if it's all a plan to make the Board give him a lot of money to spend in January

Some good (and measured) comments here.

We are in a period of malaise. No doubt about it. This has been happening since Bodo Glimt away and has therefore extended to 5 matches now. If we are looking for positives, it's that we have taken points in this period that we would likely have dropped last time out, but the negatives is that we have been flat and looking tired in all of these games.

The things that worry me most are:

- Has Arteta pushed his fairly threadbare team too hard starting pre-season? It's all well and good looking dangerous when we are able to play at 100% and our key players are firing on all cylinders, but this is not going to happen every game, and like Mac says the manager's recent comments about player fatigue not being an issue look naive. This may be the case at Citeh, where they have the depth and talent within their squad to control games and allow their players to 'rest' within games (the likes of Haaland manage their games really well - whereas Jesus tries to play at 110% all the time, and this is affecting him). Our problem is that we do not have a great number of options to mitigate this and our back up players are not providing the relief that we all hoped they would.

- Areteta looks like a great manager when we are on a roll, but on the evidence of last season his approach does not look effective when we are in difficulties. This applies to 'in game' changes - which at times look desperate and rushed, as well as difficult periods more generally. The manager can shore up our defence when we are protecting a lead, but we struggle to find an attacking Plan B when we go behind. This is in part due to a lack of options off the bench, but last night our first teamers made no difference at all. In any event, I don't think his management of our substitute players sees them confident and ready to change game states.

- Our aura of invincibility earlier in the season now looks brittle and illusory. They were at home, yes, and had to go for the win, but PSV were not intimidated by playing us, and both Leeds and Southampton looked like they worked us out and their changes after our customary fast starts neutralised us. Other managers will be looking at our weaknesses - particularly our high line and goalkeeper's achilles heel - and we are suddenly looking one-dimensional.

We should have too much for Forest at home, and can hopefully return to winning ways in a convincing performance, but pressure seems to return so quickly to Arteta's set up, and the manager and players desperately need to nip this slump in the bud. Teams with pretensions of finishing in the top places in the league need consistency of performances better than we have shown lately.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s hard to downplay the significance of Thomas Partey to team performance, that when he is injured or not played that can affect us.
Of course there are reasons that disprove this, the performances against Aston Villa and even Man United were not overall poor (he didn’t play in either game) and he was poor against Liverpool and we still put in an effective performance.

But a fit and in form Partey is one of our best guarantees of a good performance and a win and the stats bear this out. Which for me still comes back to what I’ve said repeatedly which is central midfield is the most important area in the park. Without dynamism in there it affects the likelihood of Odegaard,Martinelli and Saka seeing the ball….and this is especially so when Arteta plays a right back at left back and a centre back at right back meaning there is no auxiliary attacking support from the full backs.

I think there is more than just physical fitness at being overplayed at stake, Eddie Nketiah and Vieira have also both been very poor recently and Lokonga has been our worst player this season….in regards to giving the ball away, being caught out of position etc.

Whatever I personally think of Xhaka, it’s clear Arteta rates him…but he’s the player that has been ridiculously overused and he looked totally flat last night.

For me whilst I don’t think it’s unfair to be critical of Arteta for not rotating the larger issue seems to be a lack of Squad depth which can only be addressed in the transfer market.

[Marc Overmars]

I think we need another striker or at least a wide player who can contribute. As much as I’d love Eddie to succeed I don’t believe he’s going to be that guy for us. Part of me thinks we only kept him because it was cheaper than buying someone and he also ticked the home grown box. One thing with Arteta that is very obvious is that it’s easy to see when he doesn’t trust a player.

[selassie]

That result and performance was huge earlier. As was Reiss Nelson contributing from the bench. Massive positive today, Chelsea next away.

[Mac76]

Eddie is shit, when we were passing it around towards the end he just couldn't match what our other players did, he flattered to deceive last season

We need another striker in January

[Chippy]

Eddie is shit, when we were passing it around towards the end he just couldn't match what our other players did, he flattered to deceive last season

We need another striker in January

He wouldn't get into my second team, Southend United ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

He wouldn't get into my second team, Southend United ;)

I’ve seen Southend United play.

Not only would he get in, he’d have a statue of him outside Roots Hall within six months

[Niall_Quinn]

The whole team is shit. But, amazingly, this shit team is the best team in this shit league right now. It's fucking incredible. I think thee shitkickers could actually win this shit league. It's embarrassing. However. If we are the best of the worst, it still counts. Ain't Bergkamp and Henry, maybe, but it will still go down in the books as an easy win.

Just kidding. Collapse hasn't happened yet.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apart from Johnny Walker’s Amber restorative, is there anything in life that gives you joy?

[Niall_Quinn]

Apart from Johnny Walker’s Amber restorative, is there anything in life that gives you joy?

Yep. In fact it was a very good night last night.

Are you telling me you didn't watch the Southampton match?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Worrying cult mentality developing on social media around Arteta (it’s always fitting that you get a cult of personality surrounding people who actually lack one).

We’ve done well, very well this season but we are 14 games in. And even amongst all the good news there are red flags such as the guys inability to rotate, his tendency to fall out with players, the complete reliance we have on Partey and our lack of goals from strikers.

Despite all that we are ticking over nicely, but don’t start chanting Trust the Process as if it’s anything but a meaningless slogan.

I don’t like Arteta personally, he doesn’t come across to me as a very likeable individual (Wenger for all his stubbornness and flaws was, as was Emery despite his struggles with the language). And that undoubtedly clouds my judgement although I do maintain that one does not have to be likeable to be good at their job. But Arteta’s judgement at times confounds me.

It would be hard to argue that a different coach would be doing a better job with these players though, that I will say for him

[Letters]

Football fans are famously reactionary. But it's fair to say that this season is going better than any of us could possibly have dreamed so far.
And yeah, it's "only" 14 games in but that's over a third of the season, and we've played enough of the big teams now to suggest there's something about this lot and Arteta is doing a good job. I'm not sure there's any cult mentality, people are just pleased about how things are going and why wouldn't they be?
Obviously some people are going overboard as they do about everything.
:shrug:

[Marc Overmars]

Most of the fans I speak to are pretty grounded and realistic about what may or may not happen this season. Arsenal do probably have the largest online presence of any club though, so you’re bound to get a lot of things that are said for clout and clicks. The same people deifying Arteta now were also probably wanting him gone 18 months ago.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I’ve only recently hit the point where I’d be pissed if we don’t make the top 4.

The rest is gravy.

[selassie]

I’ve only recently hit the point where I’d be pissed if we don’t make the top 4.

The rest is gravy.

Missing out on top 4 from the position we are in would be a sack able offence IMO. It would take a monumental collapse. Saying that our schedule coming up after the World Cup is difficult, we have West Ham H, Brighton A, Newcastle H, Spurs A, Man United H. If we come out of this run of fixtures with say 3 wins and 2 draws then I think we'll firmly be in the race for top 2.

[Globalgunner]

We are less than half way through the season. We were in the mix last year until 3 games to go. If there is a way to f this up, we can find it. We have a good team however, just not sure about the manager.

[selassie]

Arteta has built a special team, there is no denying this anymore.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arteta has built a special team, there is no denying this anymore.

LOL. They are ORDINARY.

But better than the rest, in this ORDINARY league.

There are a couple of decent players in there, but the rest are... what's the word?

ORDINARY.

People have very short memories.

[selassie]

LOL. They are ORDINARY.

But better than the rest, in this ORDINARY league.

There are a couple of decent players in there, but the rest are... what's the word?

ORDINARY.

People have very short memories.

Their stats and performances so far this season are far from ordinary.

This is the first Arsenal team I've watched in years that is organised back to front. The first in years that look capable of actually winning something decent. It's a good team, not the best players, but as a team it's very good. That is just my opinion.

[Niall_Quinn]

Their stats and performances so far this season are far from ordinary.

This is the first Arsenal team I've watched in years that is organised back to front. The first in years that look capable of actually winning something decent. It's a good team, not the best players, but as a team it's very good. That is just my opinion.

Oh, okay, if you are framing it by this season alone - yes, they are the best team ever.

[selassie]

Oh, okay, if you are framing it by this season alone - yes, they are the best team ever.

What are you talking about? Of course i am talking about the team this season, this team has different players to last season, have you noticed? The level of performance has gone up. Pretty much all the young players are improving and have been improving the past few seasons.

[Niall_Quinn]

What are you talking about? Of course i am talking about the team this season, this team has different players to last season, have you noticed? The level of performance has gone up. Pretty much all the young players are improving and have been improving the past few seasons.

You watch the matches, I guess, but you don't see the matches. That's fine. A lot of people these days don't have memories.

[Niall_Quinn]

And I'm not talking about Wenger's Arsenal, which was the pinnacle tbf. I'm talking about the basics of football, the stuff the modern player rarely does.

BUT, I don't disagree that this is the best team in a while and this is the best team in the league.

In a way, it's an indictment.

[selassie]

And I'm not talking about Wenger's Arsenal, which was the pinnacle tbf. I'm talking about the basics of football, the stuff the modern player rarely does.

BUT, I don't disagree that this is the best team in a while and this is the best team in the league.

In a way, it's an indictment.

Yeah Wenger's Arsenal, especially around the invincibles era is a one-off IMO, we will be lucky to see a team as good as that again in our lifetime. Despite that, this current team has made the best start ever in PL for Arsenal, even better than the invincibles, that is not to mean I am comparing, but it does mean this team is very good. It's almost perfectly balanced all across the pitch and the spine is as good as you are going to get with an emerging side.

I'm not looking at this team just for this season, I am looking at this team being a credible challenger both domestically and in CL for the foreseeable future. That's the key with this team and the work that Arteta and Edu need to continue. Keep team together, add to it. Continue with the current methods that are clearly working to a very high level.

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

Tonight please. The Rookie is back!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What a way to bring up your 1000th post.

[Chippy]

What a way to bring up your 1000th post.

Thank you :tiphat:

[Mac76]

:lol:

[selassie]

:lol:

[Letters]

Thank you :tiphat:

That’s alright!
We ‘ate Tottenham and we ‘ate Tottenham…

[Chippy]

That’s alright!
We ‘ate Tottenham and we ‘ate Tottenham…

:cheers:

[Chippy]

That’s alright!
We ‘ate Tottenham and we ‘ate Tottenham…
Back to last night's game
Is anyone else thinking that Saliba and Gabriel are not quite good enough? Saliba looked pretty good in the French League, but the PL is much harder. I would play Kiwior and Holding on Saturday. We must do something to turn this shit show around, and quickly.

[Marc Overmars]

Back to last night's game
Is anyone else thinking that Saliba and Gabriel are not quite good enough? Saliba looked pretty good in the French League, but the PL is much harder. I would play Kiwior and Holding on Saturday. We must do something to turn this shit show around, and quickly.

Saliba has been struggling for a while but I suppose he’s got some credit in the bank. Same with Gabriel too, they’ve both looked a bit shaky since the restart.

Not sure I’d play Kiwior and Holding though. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. At least one of Saliba and Gabriel need to stay in there.

[Mac76]

Saliba has been struggling for a while but I suppose he’s got some credit in the bank. Same with Gabriel too, they’ve both looked a bit shaky since the restart.

Not sure I’d play Kiwior and Holding though. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. At least one of Saliba and Gabriel need to stay in there.

yeah Holding is now dreadful

I would think about bringing in Kiwior though, but instead of maybe Gabriel as I'm not sure he's any better than Saliba and he did actually give away a pel yesterday - but we got away with an offside ruling (VAR :bow:)

[fakeyank]

Back to last night's game
Is anyone else thinking that Saliba and Gabriel are not quite good enough? Saliba looked pretty good in the French League, but the PL is much harder. I would play Kiwior and Holding on Saturday. We must do something to turn this shit show around, and quickly.

Nah.. They were immense in the first 19 games. I am not a fan of swapping CB's without giving them time.

[Mac76]

In the cold light of day this morning, two things are clear to me

The first is that Citeh will win the league

The second is that we need to part ways with Arteta in the summer

He's done well to get us a strong team spirit but we have to say he was fortunate to benefit from some of the players we had

Yesterday showed that his flaws will always hold us back from competing with the best

The PL will be tougher next year, we also have the CL

We need someone with top experience to pick up from here

It's what Chelsea in their winning era would have done and we need to do the same to get that kind of success

We need someone who's got no time for Xhaka's idiocy, Zin's flaws and the madness of never using one of the best left backs in the country

So we need to say "thanks Mikel, we'll take it from here"

[HCZ_Reborn]

In the cold light of day this morning, two things are clear to me

The first is that Citeh will win the league

The second is that we need to part ways with Arteta in the summer

He's done well to get us a strong team spirit but we have to say he was fortunate to benefit from some of the players we had

Yesterday showed that his flaws will always hold us back from competing with the best

The PL will be tougher next year, we also have the CL

We need someone with top experience to pick up from here

It's what Chelsea in their winning era would have done and we need to do the same to get that kind of success

We need someone who's got no time for Xhaka's idiocy, Zin's flaws and the madness of never using one of the best left backs in the country

So we need to say "thanks Mikel, we'll take it from here"

Fucking hell :haha:

This is like the Liverpool fans who want to get rid of Klopp

The sad fact is the reason the premier league is going to get harder, is because City, United and Newcastle will be able to go berserk with spending.

It’s abundantly clear I’m no fan of Arteta, but the one thing that should be clear this season is that teams that have dropped their coach at the first sign of a roadblock don’t exactly profit from doing so

I’m in no position to lecture anyone for over reacting to a result, I spent a week lambasting Arteta after the United game because tactically I felt he tanked the game…yet interestingly whilst he could and should have been more conservative in that game, he was too conservative yesterday…the fact is you don’t always get it right.

We are likely to get our highest points total in almost twenty years, the idea that anyone at Arsenal is even considering dispensing with Arteta is utterly ludicrous. And as much as I don’t like him especially, the fact is there is no one who strikes me as being able to do a better job with the players he has. He has made Saka, Martinelli and Odegaard into top players.

I get it. Drawing after being two nil up is hugely disappointing, but claiming that we missed this glaring opportunity as if somehow there was this plan that would have cemented a definite victory over a team that almost never loses at home is football manager stuff.

[Chippy]

In the cold light of day this morning, two things are clear to me

The first is that Citeh will win the league

The second is that we need to part ways with Arteta in the summer

He's done well to get us a strong team spirit but we have to say he was fortunate to benefit from some of the players we had

Yesterday showed that his flaws will always hold us back from competing with the best

The PL will be tougher next year, we also have the CL

We need someone with top experience to pick up from here

It's what Chelsea in their winning era would have done and we need to do the same to get that kind of success

We need someone who's got no time for Xhaka's idiocy, Zin's flaws and the madness of never using one of the best left backs in the country

So we need to say "thanks Mikel, we'll take it from here"

Yep. Sack him, he's shit ��

[Mac76]

As i expected, no-one's really thinking this through

Ofc the team has exceeded expectations, but you don't keep a manager because of what they have done, but what you think they can do in the future and I think he's hit his limit

Chelsea won the CL and then changed managers, ruthless it might be but it got them ongoing success and unless the club develops that mentality we're going to be where Chelsea are now, the moment they softened up they lost the plot

Arteta's flawa are too deep, we will have much more high-level football next season and we need someone who's been there and done it

All of Arteta's flaws were on show yesterday, I thought he'd learnt but he hasn't - the club need to start tapping up top level managers right now

[HCZ_Reborn]

As i expected, no-one's really thinking this through

Ofc the team has exceeded expectations, but you don't keep a manager because of what they have done, but what you think they can do in the future and I think he's hit his limit

Chelsea won the CL and then changed managers, ruthless it might be but it got them ongoing success and unless the club develops that mentality we're going to be where Chelsea are now, the moment they softened up they lost the plot

Arteta's flawa are too deep, we will have much more high-level football next season and we need someone who's been there and done it

All of Arteta's flaws were on show yesterday, I thought he'd learnt but he hasn't - the club need to start tapping up top level managers right now


Whichever way you argue it, this doesn’t come across any less a petulant response to yesterday

You’ve had two posts and in neither have you put forward a top, top managerial candidate to replace Arteta

I don’t get why he sticks with Xhaka but so did Wenger and so did Emery.

[Mac76]

Whichever way you argue it, this doesn’t come across any less a petulant response to yesterday

You’ve had two posts and in neither have you put forward a top, top managerial candidate to replace Arteta

I don’t get why he sticks with Xhaka but so did Wenger and so did Emery.

Xhaka's obviously a teacher's pet who runs around however many traffic cones the boss asks him to

Wenger was on his last legs, Emery and Arteta, both with inferiority complexes, liked his unconditional support whem they went through difficult times

Try comparing it with business, a good company looks to what its doing next and if it needs to bring a new CEO who can lead the company in its next phase, they do

What you need to get your head around is that next season will be much more competitive so we need to have the right person with the right experience to do it

And I'm not feeling angry or emotional at all today, just very resigned to our fate and clear about its causes, all of which lie at Arteta's door

A team can't just be good, it needs to be perfect or it won't succeed, and Xhaka, Zin and Arteta are too imperfect

[IBK]

In the cold light of day this morning, two things are clear to me

The first is that Citeh will win the league

The second is that we need to part ways with Arteta in the summer

He's done well to get us a strong team spirit but we have to say he was fortunate to benefit from some of the players we had

Yesterday showed that his flaws will always hold us back from competing with the best

The PL will be tougher next year, we also have the CL

We need someone with top experience to pick up from here

It's what Chelsea in their winning era would have done and we need to do the same to get that kind of success

We need someone who's got no time for Xhaka's idiocy, Zin's flaws and the madness of never using one of the best left backs in the country

So we need to say "thanks Mikel, we'll take it from here"

Strongly disagree. Arteta has his flaws but he is undoubtedly one of the most sought after managers in Europe ATM, and every team bar Citeh and maybe Newcastle wishes they had someone in his mould. You say his flaws will always hold us back. I say that if this season has shown us anything it is that he is learning - and his project is not complete. As others have said, the key question here is who would be available anyway to continue the momentum that Arteta has achieved? If this were a flash in the pan - a la Leicester after 2016 then there would be more merit in what you are saying, but a second place finish this season will speak to something much deeper than that, and the manager deserves to further augment his side and push on - that much is obvious, for me.

[Mac76]

But his project involves Zinchenko, Xhaka and losing Tierney which is why I don't support it, I don't need to mention anyone else, just point to flaws which Arteta shows no sign of understanding

he only knows one way to set up the team and going forward he's just going to bolt the club more deeply into that model

[HCZ_Reborn]

But his project involves Zinchenko, Xhaka and losing Tierney which is why I don't support it, I don't need to mention anyone else, just point to flaws which Arteta shows no sign of understanding

he only knows one way to set up the team and going forward he's just going to bolt the club more deeply into that model

And let’s be fair we felt that players like that would mean that we would struggle to finish in the top four.

But as I’ve said, the issue isn’t tactical the reason things will be more difficult is because the ridiculous money four clubs will be spending. There isn’t a robotic super coach that exists that can get past that factor

As for Arteta, he’s no better or worse than Guardiola…who you could very much make the same argument about in terms of tactics preventing him from winning the European cup with City and Bayern

Now could be that, that all changes this season but i wouldn’t be surprised if Bayern knock them out.

[Marc Overmars]

Madness to suggest sacking him now. He’s built a team that’s currently delivering our best season in 20 years. All the players attribute their progress to him and it would tear down everything we’ve built if he were to leave.

If we don’t win the league, it will probably be because we couldn’t win at Anfield or the Etihad. These are monumental tasks in any season. We couldn’t have asked for much more right now. We want an A+ but an A- season is still beyond anything we expected.

There’s plenty to improve on but this squad has a high enough ceiling to come again and that’s thanks to Arteta and also Edu who revamped the entire strategy of the club.

We’re finally back in the CL next year too so that’s something to look forward to and will no doubt help us in the transfer market as well.

I know we’re all desperate for the title but stories don’t always have happy endings. Thanks to City and their cheat codes just being an excellent team isn’t enough anymore to win the league.

[Mac76]

Sure i get what you're all saying and i know it's a bit crazy to talk about replacing Arteta, but as i said above Abramovich's Chelsea and I'd argue some continental clubs would do it if they thought it necessary so it's not beyond contemplation

It's not based on anger but it's certainly an argumemt based on personal preference, as someone who pays to go to the games it's depressing to think we're stuck with Xhaka and Zin and the no-left-back system for the forseeable future, personally i can't stand it and so purely from a selfish POV, if Arteta won't change it it's always going to annoy me and make me inclined to want to see what somone else could do with that squad (or most of it)

When Tierney goes in the summer - which he surely will - it will be a really depressing moment, especially if he then does really well for someone like Newcastle

I'll say one more time that different managers work with different teams at different points of their evolution

But sure we will of course keep Arteta and all well and good and I'll just have to suck it up :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sure i get what you're all saying and i know it's a bit crazy to talk about replacing Arteta, but as i said above Abramovich's Chelsea and I'd argue some continental clubs would do it if they thought it necessary so it's not beyond contemplation

It's not based on anger but it's certainly an argumemt based on personal preference, as someone who pays to go to the games it's depressing to think we're stuck with Xhaka and Zin and the no-left-back system for the forseeable future, personally i can't stand it and so purely from a selfish POV, if Arteta won't change it it's always going to annoy me and make me inclined to want to see what somone else could do with that squad (or most of it)

When Tierney goes in the summer - which he surely will - it will be a really depressing moment, especially if he then does really well for someone like Newcastle

I'll say one more time that different managers work with different teams at different points of their evolution

But sure we will of course keep Arteta and all well and good and I'll just have to suck it up :lol:

Ultimately I resigned myself to the fact long, long ago that there will always be players who play for us that I don’t like

Let’s be fair the main purpose of the full back role seems less defensive and more about supplementing the attack these days.

For me we wouldn’t need an inverted left back if Xhaka had more positional discipline but at the same time, I think it actually works better him going forward, not just because he’s not great defensively but he definitely gives us more options in terms of attacking outlets. As much as I overall prefer someone like Tielemans because I think he’s technically better, I think the way Xhaka lurks deep outside the opponents box means that far more than ever used to be the case we can recycle the ball when it gets clear (Odegaard also very good at this)

I think Arteta is an adaptative manager, he’s also smug and Galaxy brained and stubborn but the anthithesis of this is being a prevaricater who is unsure of himself. Plus Klopp and Guardiola are quite dogmatic in the style they play.

It’s not for me his style, we don’t take anywhere near enough advantage of counter attacking opportunities. It also often feels like we can’t strike quite the right balance between attack and defence. But I still think we are a work in progress

It felt to me years ago that there were obvious candidates to replace Wenger, but there is no one obvious to replace Arteta

[Chippy]

In the cold light of day this morning, two things are clear to me

The first is that Citeh will win the league

The second is that we need to part ways with Arteta in the summer

He's done well to get us a strong team spirit but we have to say he was fortunate to benefit from some of the players we had

Yesterday showed that his flaws will always hold us back from competing with the best

The PL will be tougher next year, we also have the CL

We need someone with top experience to pick up from here

It's what Chelsea in their winning era would have done and we need to do the same to get that kind of success

We need someone who's got no time for Xhaka's idiocy, Zin's flaws and the madness of never using one of the best left backs in the country

So we need to say "thanks Mikel, we'll take it from here"

The most annoying thing is that Arteta keeps faith with Xhaka and ignores Tierney. We were getting battered for 50 minutes of the game and brings on Tierney on 88 minutes :( what the fuck?

[Mac76]

The most annoying thing is that Arteta keeps faith with Xhaka and ignores Tierney. We were getting battered for 50 minutes of the game and brings on Tierney on 88 minutes :( what the fuck?

Yeah, he does have his favourites, I think most people admit that

Like you say, Tierney should have either started or certainly replaced Zin on about 60 mins - it's exactly that kind of thing that's irritating, if we lose fair and square it's one thing, but if it's through our own mistakes it's harder to take

[mandela8]

In the cold light of day this morning, two things are clear to me

The first is that Citeh will win the league

The second is that we need to part ways with Arteta in the summer

He's done well to get us a strong team spirit but we have to say he was fortunate to benefit from some of the players we had

Yesterday showed that his flaws will always hold us back from competing with the best

The PL will be tougher next year, we also have the CL

We need someone with top experience to pick up from here

It's what Chelsea in their winning era would have done and we need to do the same to get that kind of success

We need someone who's got no time for Xhaka's idiocy, Zin's flaws and the madness of never using one of the best left backs in the country

So we need to say "thanks Mikel, we'll take it from here"

Quite enjoyed reading this ha. Easy not to speak against consensus.

Definitely get the sentiment, tbh. The suggestion that Arteta may have peaked is pretty reasonable to me. I'm not sure it clicks like this again for him but he's at least earned the chance to fail, I guess.

His favoritism of certain players is baffling, particularly when it's so blatantly to the detriment of him and the team.

I guess if I had to defend him otd be a long the lines of my similarly staunch defence of players like Saka, in that he's still young and relatively inexperienced. Those subs yesterday absolutely reeked of inexperience and cowardice.

[mandela8]

Actually, I see your point is that the ruthlessness we should apply is to not let him use his right to fail.

[Mac76]

Actually, I see your point is that the ruthlessness we should apply is to not let him use his right to fail.

Pretty much, yes...

[Letters]

Fucking hell :haha:.
:gp:

This is just too silly.

[Mac76]

:gp:

This is just too silly.

No, it's just a POV you don't agree with, but as I keep.pointing out (and no-one has dealt with), it's an approach taken by other clubs including Chelsea which netted them a hatful of honours

Not that I particularly want us to emulate Chelsea, but it's a valid point to make even if no-one agrees