When will Arteta be sacked by

[IBK]

I haven't posted on here in a while due to work committments etc, but I just wanted to come back and post and take back some of my words. Since the turn of the year in PL our results and form has been really special. Whatever happens this season I can't really fault Arteta or even the players for the perfomances and results they are delivering right now at this crucial point in the season.

I realise there is a way to go, but this team seems to be peaking at the right now, the quality, the organisation, the application, the fight, it's all their. Not only that but it's the first time since the peak "Wenger years" where I am starting to believe this team is capable of producing something very special.

Arteta is building something very special right before our eyes, this is no flash in the pan, he delivering a proper project and I certainly trust the process.

Hi Mate. Nice to see you on here.

Firstly its good to see someone who is prepared to revise his view, rather than sticking to the same line.

When it comes to football, it is entirely appropriate that opinions should change according to performances on the pitch. What is clear to me is that Arteta has a gift for seeing things that fans certainly and many other managers don't.

For all the Arteta doubters, and I include myself at times since he joined our club, the following are clear and obvious signs of his talent:

- Spotting qualities in players that work with his collective vision. Individually, the likes of Havertz; Raya and Jorghino stand out here (and Kiwior gets a special mention too). We as fans were underwhelmed with all of these players, yet certainly the first 3 have become first team essentials in a system that is the best, and most fluid in the league. The fact that we are not missing Jesus and Partey, who would have been the first players on the teamsheet only months ago is incredible. Our performances with our first 3 choices at left back (Zin, Tomiyasu and Timber) out, and the fact that at the same time we have improved in both attack and defence is extraordinary. Arteta sees things that most others don't. This includes identifying players with the smarts to understand a very complex system.

- Instilling self belief in his team. It is self evident that our players now believe that they can win the league, and trust Arteta's system implicitly. You don't get performances that we have been putting in since the start of the year without this - and he has achieved 100% buy in. We can now see the reasons why the manager ditched players who were popular with fans, yet didn't show the comittment to the cause. You genuinely get the feeling that players coming in are desperate to join the party, and that we fear no one. Beating Liverpool and City, and putting formerly tricky opponents such as Newcastle and West Ham to the sword recently is testimony to this. Last season I feel that we feared trips to Anfield; The Etihad and the Shithole. i just don't think we do any more.

- Learning and developing on from past mistakes. When I and others criticised our manager for sterile performances earlier in the season, and lamented unproductive control this was justified. Now we see that control has become domination, and familiarity with the roles they are expected to perform has meant that players are seeing the fruits of this process. We all know that Arteta is still relatively inexperienced, and this still shows at times (eg our game in Porto) - but the manager's development of this team - particularly since the winter break - shows a vision and adaptablility that I think has been under-appreciated. I genuinely don;t really understand how the manager has achieved this, but we seem to be peaking at just the right time - a time when we were about to fall off last seaon. This takes considerable talent, IMO.

This is not just recency bias. It is greater appreciation of the manager's plan. Yes we have had a relatively easy run of results, but by the same token we have shown indisputably that our result at home against the league leaders was not a one off, and that we are evolving into a special team.

Will we win the league? Quite possibly not. Does Arteta need top silverware to cement his burgeoning reputation? Of course. But I fail to see how the views of those who do not think that Arteta has shown that he can become a truly exceptional manager are justified in the light of what we are seeing. For me, he has shown us clearly that we should trust the process, and I would not swap Arteta for anyone else at this moment in time.

[Mac76]

@IBK, yes I've been thinking exactly this lately, I was criticising him a lot for being stubborn and having favourites, but partly through accident and partly by design he is learning to use other players and tactics. Sorting out our set pieces has also been a huge plus although i still don't understand why it took a training cmp in Dubai to do it -how long has that coach been at Arsenal - at least one and a half seasons?

Anyway as you say he needs silverware but has built a strong young team which, if they can get something big over the line soon (and by big i mean CL or PL), will I think go on to be a really dmoninant force

[HCZ_Reborn]

So I’m going to take your arguments one by one, mainly because I think you’re without doubt the person on here who most frequently makes arguments in good faith. However I’m not especially convinced that you calling your arguments self-evident makes them so, and in my view too many people use such terms rhetorically


- Spotting qualities in players that work with his collective vision. Individually, the likes of Havertz; Raya and Jorghino stand out here (and Kiwior gets a special mention too).


I’m not entirely sure this is necessarily conducive to success. Managers can of course have their own style they want to play and want to get players they think best suited to that style. However this in turn can make the team one dimensional, and as I stated originally whilst I give credit to Arteta for incorporating set piece routines into our play to break through the deep block. It’s a result of a stubborn even myopic way of wanting the game to be played that required this intervention. And it’s not without its drawbacks, albeit via shithousing as you put it Porto were able to nullify it.

I also think there’s a danger of making luxury signings at the expense of getting in players in positions where we require them. Whilst there’s no question now that Havertz for all his imperfections and idiosyncrasies looks a better player with us than he was at Chelsea (and I say this as someone who whilst not a fan of the signing, always liked him as a player) I think there’s no doubt that this wasn’t a signing we needed to make. I would say the same with Raya, I like his distribution but I think we’ve sacrificed what is overall a better keeper in Ramsdale.

- Instilling self belief in his team. It is self evident that our players now believe that they can win the league



I think even being generous this is at best an untested assertion. I’d in fact argue that we had three tests away from home this season - Newcastle, Aston Villa and Liverpool. And we failed two out three of those tests, we simply can’t blame a rum referring decision against Newcastle because we created nothing, Villa is the worst of all because we had them on the ropes, absolutely there for the taking but could not deliver the knockout blow.
Liverpool was actually a largely sedate game, people talk about the chances Liverpool had but I don’t think they had all that many, and in many respects we were as wasteful. But yeah albeit a December game rather than a title deciding fixture, we looked far more composed and less intimidated than we did the previous April. But in my view we will only know if that mentality is really a thing if we can produce when it matters.

- Learning and developing on from past mistakes


He has learned from some mistakes, others not so much. I think Arteta still is very bad at rotating the squad. When you consider the amount of games Saliba, Rice and Saka have played this season….theres a very real risk of them breaking down . On top of that, it also means squad players who may be moved on in the summer are deprived of game time by which we can get more money for them. A player like Smith- Rowe for instance, there’s been scope to start him and not simply bring him off the bench.

I genuinely thought Arteta had to show he’d learned in the transfer market, but in my view last summer was a disappointment. Take away whether I think Rice or Havertz have been worth the money…it comes back to my view of luxury signings. When you look at the areas where Arteta has signed the most players its defenders, he seems unable to go a season without buying new ones and jettisoning those he himself has previously bought in. And I say that’s luxury because it’s clear the priority is in other areas of the pitch.

The modern game is unforgiving, we simply don’t have the ability to give Arteta the time he feels he needs to realise what most of us saw some time previously. And no I don’t think it’s because he’s lacking in intelligence or perception. It’s because he’s stubborn and galaxy brained and often thinks he can do things that defy convention because he regards himself as an innovator.

There’s nothing wrong with being an innovator but it’s far less important than being a pragmatist and being flexible.

[Mac76]

@hcz I'd have said all of that pretty much, about 6 months ago, but I do think he's learnt.

Yes he could give other players nore game time and agree ESR could've had a start here and there. But subbing at Saka at HT, knowing we've three games in 8-9 days, at least showed he's able to think more strategically about how we use plyaers (and yes it's taken him too long to learn)

also I think we mustn't lose sight of the fact he wanted to buy Mudryk ahead of all of Trossard, Jorg and Kiwior - take those three players away now and we'd be severely lacking in options

Havertz does look like a luxery and we certainly overpaid for him by some way, but he is now proving very useful, notwithstanding we always have to ask who else we could have got for that money

I do think Arteta values the right attitude highly and he clearly thinks Havertz has it, also he got a player who knew the PL - it worked with Rice straight away, it didn't initially work with Havertz but he's growing into it, the main issue is so much poor finishing (albeit his goal yesterady was a good strike)

overall, probably the main reason i feel more positive about us atm is simply the lack of Zin who, as is well documented, is a huge annoyance to me - I really hope Arteta is realising how well we are playing without him, in a more direct way and not giving the ball away so often - i felt that, before Tomi got injured, Arteta had at lesat realised Tomi was a better option than Zin for some games - i am hoping he will go further and realise Zin is a bench player at best, though tbh i struggle to work out when he's worth it even from the bench - if we're winning he could well ship a goal, if we're losing he will slow our attacking play down

[HCZ_Reborn]

I simply don’t think that there has been a sizeable number of games that give me sufficient evidence of learning.

The fact is that we have a run of seven games won in a row last season. Now we haven’t scored 31 goals in those games but we did score 23. And we didn’t play two of the worst teams ever to play in the premier league. Now of course you can only beat who you’re up against but whilst things have been favourable in the PL, there’s much that could cause the kind of rot we’ve seen countless times before.

Assuming we win the next two games, and whilst that’s not a watertight assumption it’s a reasonable one in that there’s no reason why we shouldn’t. We don’t play again for 2-3 weeks until we play city, not the most desirable of preparation for City away…you can argue the players are rested but are they when many are on international duty. That’s by the by because Arteta isn’t responsible for fixture scheduling. There’s talk of him arranging a friendly both to keep the players fresh and to allow Jurrien Timber to play a non competitive fixture in order to reacclimate

Now all of this is a good idea for sure, but the proof is in the eating. Not just how we do in that game but the effect it may have as a knock on.

In just over two weeks from the city game, we’d have to play three league fixtures and if we get past Porto a quarter final champions league tie and after the second leg of the quarter final we have back to back games away at Wolves and away at Spurs.

So between March 31st and April 27th, there are a fuck load of bear traps to navigate. If we navigate them well, we could go into May only having one away game left to play and our first semi final of the European cup in 15 years.

However historically the evidence is we step into the first bear trap and we are so shocked by this we hobble around in distress blithely walking into the next one.

By bear traps I don’t just mean fixtures but potential for injury, suspension etc

[Mac76]

@hcz, I don't see how any of it proves whether Arteta is a good manager or not, all i can do is look at a team where individuals like Havertz are improving, Kiwior has fitted in well and we now have Jesus, Partey (although for how long is a different matter) coming back and giving us more depth - as you say there be some intense runs of games so that will really help.

Also where things have gone wrong for us ths season we have picked it up relatively quickly again

IMO the main thing Arteta has got wrong recently is that ridiculous situation with Gabriel at the start of the season, which almost certainly lost us points and was in my view, whatever anyone says, caused entirely by Arteta having a personality problem - however he realised he'd broken up the best CB partnership in the PL and corrected his error - let's hope he learnt from that

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well with Gabriel there was talk of selling him that was even discussed by Arteta in press conferences, where he more or less said he didn’t know whether the player would still be here because the club would make that call.

We know Arteta for sure has had fallings out with players, but there’s a bit of when you’re a hammer everything looks like it’s a nail. I think you’ll find that we struggle with purchases in the summer and that any substantive purchase will be based on selling players. There was interest in Gabriel and the Saudi leagues transfer window closed after ours.


Now for sure Arteta’s lineup at the beginning of the season was Galaxy brained, still for the life of me not sure what he was trying to achieve. It was motivated for sure by looking at assembling a team without Gabriel in it in case he was sold, but I don’t think Arteta particularly wanted to sell him….plus Gabriel came on as a sub in two of the first three games and the only reason he didn’t come on in the third (Fulham at home) was because we brought on a load of attacking players because we were chasing the game for long periods. Just don’t see that happening if Arteta wanted him gone.

However, at the same time I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad thing occasionally going forward to split up the partnership every once in a while. Have White and Gabriel together, Saliba and Kiwior…simply because if one of Saliba or Gabriel get injured…you have a backup centre back pairing that has played together.


Given Saliba’s long injury last season , given Gabriel came off injured back in January…we have been very lucky to be able to play them week in week out.

[HCZ_Reborn]

@hcz, I don't see how any of it proves whether Arteta is a good manager or not, all i can do is look at a team where individuals like Havertz are improving, Kiwior has fitted in well and we now have Jesus, Partey (although for how long is a different matter) coming back and giving us more depth - as you say there be some intense runs of games so that will really help.

Also where things have gone wrong for us ths season we have picked it up relatively quickly again

IMO the main thing Arteta has got wrong recently is that ridiculous situation with Gabriel at the start of the season, which almost certainly lost us points and was in my view, whatever anyone says, caused entirely by Arteta having a personality problem - however he realised he'd broken up the best CB partnership in the PL and corrected his error - let's hope he learnt from that

One individual bad result on its own is unless the players look totally poorly set up is not so much on the coach I agree, you can only do so much preparation and in game management…ultimately the players will produce or they won’t. But last season, the season before and the season before that are all littered with examples of poor runs


I would argue we did have quite a sustained run of poor results from December into January

We won one game from seven between 9th December and 7th January…scoring only five goals in that period

That’s exactly the kind of collapse, that not only do I fear happening but that I think is highly possible will happen in April.


Because lack of goals? Possibly, Because of defensive injury? Also possible


Would love to be wrong, but whenever I’ve waited for the other shoe to drop in the past…it hasn’t failed to do so.


Where I’ve been wrong is predicting catastrophe rather than just a fizzle out


I don’t think it will be as heinous as last season because a) I don’t think any of us is expecting we will win the league or the European cup b) It’s not even up to us whether we win the league…the way it was last season

[IBK]

OK so I'll respond to your points specifically below, but generally while I understand that you remain to be convinced of substantive progress under Arteta, I think that pointing out his undoubted shortcomings (all the best managers have some), and disappointing results in certain games willfully ignores the undoubted progress Arteta has made, in order to double down on your viewpoint. I am not saying he is perfect, and pointed out his inexperience that of itself is a obvious concession that he still has much to learn, but we can see - both from the team's performances and the underlying data - that there seems to be a positive evolution in our team.

So I’m going to take your arguments one by one, mainly because I think you’re without doubt the person on here who most frequently makes arguments in good faith. However I’m not especially convinced that you calling your arguments self-evident makes them so, and in my view too many people use such terms rhetorically


- Spotting qualities in players that work with his collective vision. Individually, the likes of Havertz; Raya and Jorghino stand out here (and Kiwior gets a special mention too).

I’m not entirely sure this is necessarily conducive to success. Managers can of course have their own style they want to play and want to get players they think best suited to that style. However this in turn can make the team one dimensional, and as I stated originally whilst I give credit to Arteta for incorporating set piece routines into our play to break through the deep block. It’s a result of a stubborn even myopic way of wanting the game to be played that required this intervention. And it’s not without its drawbacks, albeit via shithousing as you put it Porto were able to nullify it.[/B]

I think that being one dimensional is the last criticism you could make of our current team. We have achieved the best balance of attack and defence in the EPL so far this season (we are the top team in terms of defence and only 1 goal behind Liverpool in second in terms of attack). We have added set pieces to our game, and are far and away the league leaders for set peice goals. We have interchangeable players and positions; have slotted players with different skill sets in and out of key positions and Arteta has managed his team around potential weaknesses, such as playign Havertz often in 3 positions during a game, and inverting on the right when Kiwior has come in at LB. We have looked ineffective at times against low blocks, but lately this issue has been more than rectified (the majority of teams we have played recently will clearly have wanted to try to contain us, but we simply didn't allow them to). Even at Porto, we adapted our game plan for stability and while we did not have the same attacking intent against a team that set out to spoil and was incredibly conservative playing out, we should have achieved a decent away draw but for a moment of inexperience. This is not a one dimeensional team.

I'm afraid I fail to understand how spotting and developing player qualities that makes the collective better cannot be regarded as a clear sign of managerial talent. You say that this is not conducive to success. I say that ths is rather reductive. What you appear to be arguing is that managerial talent equates only to success. While I have agreed that only by winning the top competitions will Arteta deserve to be regarded as one of the best, this does not detract from the fact that he has shown undoubted talent in moulding a team that is doing what we wanted it to do for years - being competetive and in with a shout of the league. In doing this he has been innovative and insightful, and proved the detractors of a number of his signings misguided. This will not change if we fail to win the league or the CL.

I and most observers do not agree that we have sacrificed better players in getting to where we are currently. I believe that Arteta has been single minded in promoting players who have shown their worth. I was and remain a Ramsdale fan, but we look generally a more 'grown up' and consistent team than we were last season, in which our early success was built more on emotion but we were prone to self-harm in conceding goals, and this was exemplified by Ramsdale.

I also think there’s a danger of making luxury signings at the expense of getting in players in positions where we require them. Whilst there’s no question now that Havertz for all his imperfections and idiosyncrasies looks a better player with us than he was at Chelsea (and I say this as someone who whilst not a fan of the signing, always liked him as a player) I think there’s no doubt that this wasn’t a signing we needed to make. I would say the same with Raya, I like his distribution but I think we’ve sacrificed what is overall a better keeper in Ramsdale.

Your argument would have been more justified earlier in the season where we looked goal shy, but I find it difficult to identify what 'luxury signings' this team is carrying right now. I think Arteta's skills are actually evidenced by the fact that we no longer look bereft of players in key positions. I would concede that this will be tested if we have injuries to Saka and Martinelli, but given the strength of the team currently, Jesus could deputise on either wing. Again, the team's stats bear out this point.

- Instilling self belief in his team. It is self evident that our players now believe that they can win the league



I think even being generous this is at best an untested assertion. I’d in fact argue that we had three tests away from home this season - Newcastle, Aston Villa and Liverpool. And we failed two out three of those tests, we simply can’t blame a rum referring decision against Newcastle because we created nothing, Villa is the worst of all because we had them on the ropes, absolutely there for the taking but could not deliver the knockout blow.
Liverpool was actually a largely sedate game, people talk about the chances Liverpool had but I don’t think they had all that many, and in many respects we were as wasteful. But yeah albeit a December game rather than a title deciding fixture, we looked far more composed and less intimidated than we did the previous April. But in my view we will only know if that mentality is really a thing if we can produce when it matters.

I'm afraid that your points do not support your dismissal of my point. The majority of football opinions are untested assertions in an empirical sense - particularly when it comes to self belief. However there is also the eye test, and it is a truism that teams play better when they are confident and have self belief. For me the manner in which we are now playing is testament to self-belief and players' confidence in each other. You don't get our extraordinary recent results without it. Nor do you bounce back from a misrable late december and early January with our current run, or put 4 past Newcastle after a sickener in Portugal. The poor results that you have referred to are not indicative of a lack of self-belief, they are simply poor results. In any event, why should these results rather than the effervescence we have shown in 2024 speak to the manager's ability to motivate and inspire his team? Most people would say that one of Klopp's or Guardiola's skills is to instill their teams with self-belief. So why is it different for the manager of the team that is matching them this season?

He has learned from some mistakes, others not so much. I think Arteta still is very bad at rotating the squad. When you consider the amount of games Saliba, Rice and Saka have played this season….theres a very real risk of them breaking down . On top of that, it also means squad players who may be moved on in the summer are deprived of game time by which we can get more money for them. A player like Smith- Rowe for instance, there’s been scope to start him and not simply bring him off the bench.

I do not think it is a manger's job to make money on players. And neither do I think that not giving certain fringe players game time is evidence of an inability to learn from past mistakes. Ther isn't a football fan on earth who does not think that certain unused players should be given a chance. That opinion does not equate to a manager not learning or developing, it is mostly simply a personal preference. Whether by accident or design, Arteta has used quite a few fringe players to good effect this season. I agree that he hasn't rotated Rice; Saka; Saliba or Big Gabi but that does not necessarily mean that he hasn't learnt from past mistakes. Apart from Saliba (with a specific back issue that seems to have been resolved), to my knowledge all the other mentioned players have decent injury records. The manager would be criticised for not fielding his best players if they are fit, but then dropping points, so it is largely a question of risk/reward. Besides - our caution with Partey; Tomi; Jesus; Vieira is a step change from pervious seasons, and why not look at this of evidence of learning from past mistakes? I think that the general structure; stability and flexibility of this team is a significant improvement of the 'vibes' of last season that of itself shows development and growing maturity - both in the manager and his players. The progression will never be linear, but I think it is churlish to deny this.

I genuinely thought Arteta had to show he’d learned in the transfer market, but in my view last summer was a disappointment. Take away whether I think Rice or Havertz have been worth the money…it comes back to my view of luxury signings. When you look at the areas where Arteta has signed the most players its defenders, he seems unable to go a season without buying new ones and jettisoning those he himself has previously bought in. And I say that’s luxury because it’s clear the priority is in other areas of the pitch.

You are kidding me here? Havertz; Timber; Rice; Raya. Timber looked team changing in the brief glimpse we had; Rice has been transformative and noone is questioning his transfer fee; Havertz is beginning to look like excellent business, and Raya is making this team tick going forwards while being GK for the team that has conceded fewest goals in the EPL. Where are the luxury signings you refer to? OK we didn't sign a winger or a striker, but we are not a nation state team, and the allocation of resources is not doing us badly!

The modern game is unforgiving, we simply don’t have the ability to give Arteta the time he feels he needs to realise what most of us saw some time previously. And no I don’t think it’s because he’s lacking in intelligence or perception. It’s because he’s stubborn and galaxy brained and often thinks he can do things that defy convention because he regards himself as an innovator.

There’s nothing wrong with being an innovator but it’s far less important than being a pragmatist and being flexible.

The question is who would be better for our team than Arteta. And here we come up against the usual problem. Fans compare reality to fantasy - as though there is always a manager who could come in and achieve immediate success. This doesn't exist. Do you really think - based on us finishing second last season and keeping pace with the juggernauts that are Liverpool and City (and possibly the 2 best managers in world football), Arteta has not earned the right to continue his project? if so I am glad you are not in charge at the club ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

To answer your points in reverse order, I think spending the money Arteta has spent affords him very little in the way of Rights, it instead shifts expectation onto him….this is not just my view, this will be the view of the club’s hierarchy. Now I don’t know if their expectations are the same as mine, there’s obviously a discrepancy in the timetable. But more so, the reason I’d move Arteta on is not because of what he’s not achieved but of where he has failed to convince me that he can achieve.

Talking about the run of results we are on which you’ve called extraordinary, which has little function other than as a superlative. In fact there’s little extraordinary about the results, 2023 February/March/April yielded a similar run of results (7 wins), the year before that we won six out of seven between February and March of 2022.

Both seasons rendered an April foundering, and I operate under the assumption that it will happen again. And whatever tactical tweaks that Arteta has brought about both in playing style and playing personnel have at best kept us in a holding pattern.

Now if April turns out not to be a disaster, if Raya faces sustained pressure on his goal and doesn’t shit the bed, if one of Gabriel or Saliba or Rice doesn’t get injured, if we don’t suffer a hangover where one undesirable results drags into two or three losses in a row, if we put ourselves in May where we are give or take largely where we are now in terms of our proximity to City and Liverpool.


Then I’m more than happy to reassess


What I’m saying in essence is we don’t need silverware this season, what I require is evidence that we don’t wilt when it comes to the business end of a season

And if we do (which I think we will) I think it’s only reasonable to give someone else a chance to shape the team according to their vision

Do I expect the board will do this ? No

[IBK]

To answer your points in reverse order, I think spending the money Arteta has spent affords him very little in the way of Rights, it instead shifts expectation onto him….this is not just my view, this will be the view of the club’s hierarchy. Now I don’t know if their expectations are the same as mine, there’s obviously a discrepancy in the timetable. But more so, the reason I’d move Arteta on is not because of what he’s not achieved but of where he has failed to convince me that he can achieve.

Talking about the run of results we are on which you’ve called extraordinary, which has little function other than as a superlative. In fact there’s little extraordinary about the results, 2023 February/March/April yielded a similar run of results (7 wins), the year before that we won six out of seven between February and March of 2022.

Both seasons rendered an April foundering, and I operate under the assumption that it will happen again. And whatever tactical tweaks that Arteta has brought about both in playing style and playing personnel have at best kept us in a holding pattern.

Now if April turns out not to be a disaster, if Raya faces sustained pressure on his goal and doesn’t shit the bed, if one of Gabriel or Saliba or Rice doesn’t get injured, if we don’t suffer a hangover where one undesirable results drags into two or three losses in a row, if we put ourselves in May where we are give or take largely where we are now in terms of our proximity to City and Liverpool.


Then I’m more than happy to reassess


What I’m saying in essence is we don’t need silverware this season, what I require is evidence that we don’t wilt when it comes to the business end of a season

And if we do (which I think we will) I think it’s only reasonable to give someone else a chance to shape the team according to their vision

Do I expect the board will do this ? No

You do tend to focus on language used to play down an argument. But in the case of our extraordinary results/performances in 2024, I don't think your observation is correct. This run has given Arteta's team:

- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- Status as the first team in Premier League history to win by five or more goals for three consecutive away games.
- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- More different scorers in the period than any other team.
- Most goals scored after 27 league games than Arsenal have ever scored (and 5 more than we had scored in our blue period last season).

I'd say that justifies my description, that is further enhanced by the fact that our run has come after an early season where some (including me) said we had gone backwards; and after it looked like the wheels were coming off in late December/early January.

I also don't think Arteta has us in a holding pattern. League results alone suggest otherwise. 8th; 8th; 5th; 2nd before this season is clear evidence of progress.

I take your point (and agree) that a late season collapse will call this into question, but my OP referred to the evidence we have seen of Arteta's talent - and I think we have seen this. We have also, IMO seen an identity; a plan and a process - more evident this season than last. While its easy to be wise after the event, on current evidence faith in Areta is justified.

[Mac76]

I don't think we will collapse at the end of this season, we have players like Partey and Jesus coming back from injury which adds to squad depth

I think Arteta is learning to rest some players and give others more minutes - he even took Saka off at HT on MOnday.

And i think the team has last year's experiences to draw on

none of that means we will win anything, but i don't think we will capitulate like last year

[WMUG]

Last year's collapse was purely down to Saliba and Tomiyasu getting injured against Sporting, causing us to have to play Holding for the run in.

Without that, I don't think there's any question of us not winning the league.

Barring a similar catastrophe this year, we have to be in with a shout.

[Marc Overmars]

Last year's collapse was purely down to Saliba and Tomiyasu getting injured against Sporting, causing us to have to play Holding for the run in.

Without that, I don't think there's any question of us not winning the league.

Barring a similar catastrophe this year, we have to be in with a shout.

I think with Saliba we definitely would have taken it to the end. Another issue though was probably how chaotic we were making games, going life and death for points is going to catch up with you eventually and that’s what happened. This season I think there’s definitely a lot more maturity in limiting how opponents are able to attack us. It came at a cost of our forward play being very stodgy in the first part of the season but now everyone has found their scoring boots it’s starting to look very polished.

I don’t anticipate a collapse like last season, I’m just of the opinion that we are likely to get 1 or 2 more bum results than Liverpool and City in the final stretch which will make it too difficult for us to stay on top should we find ourselves out in front.

I’m comfortable with us being an outside bet though as we all know that whatever incarnation of Arsenal there’s been for 20 years, struggling to deal with the pressure and weight of expectation has always been an underlying issue.

[Mac76]

Turns out Saka was a little ill on Monday, so the sub wasn't as strategic as i was giving Arteta credit for, in fact you could ask why he even played, if ill, against such a poor side where we didn't need him

[HCZ_Reborn]

You do tend to focus on language used to play down an argument. But in the case of our extraordinary results/performances in 2024, I don't think your observation is correct. This run has given Arteta's team:

- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- Status as the first team in Premier League history to win by five or more goals for three consecutive away games.
- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- More different scorers in the period than any other team.
- Most goals scored after 27 league games than Arsenal have ever scored (and 5 more than we had scored in our blue period last season).

I'd say that justifies my description, that is further enhanced by the fact that our run has come after an early season where some (including me) said we had gone backwards; and after it looked like the wheels were coming off in late December/early January.

I also don't think Arteta has us in a holding pattern. League results alone suggest otherwise. 8th; 8th; 5th; 2nd before this season is clear evidence of progress.

I take your point (and agree) that a late season collapse will call this into question, but my OP referred to the evidence we have seen of Arteta's talent - and I think we have seen this. We have also, IMO seen an identity; a plan and a process - more evident this season than last. While its easy to be wise after the event, on current evidence faith in Areta is justified.


I’m sorry if I appear to be being unfair to you but I think you’re in danger of conflating statistics with achievements. The run of seven wins that we racked up last season amounted to 21 goals (which is still three goals in a game). And all statistics tend to be free of the caveats behind them. This caveat is that 11 of the goals we’ve scored have come against two of the worst teams in premier league history who have long ago abandoned any hope of premier league survival, now of course goals don’t count any less no matter who you score them against (and nor should they). And nor is it any poor reflection on us, in both the Burnley and Sheffield United games we took a totally professional attitude in order to bolster our goal difference.
If I appear to be singling out words, it’s because I think it’s important to understand how despite us both having the same broad definition of a word, how our perception of how it does or does not apply to Arsenal currently differs.

For example, if Arsenal were to win the European cup….you would think it an extraordinary achievement, I’d think it was a good one. You’re not incorrect to call it extraordinary because it differs in the sense that we as a club have not won this competition before. However the way I look at it, it’s not extraordinary because it would be line with the model of Chelsea and Manchester City spending money in order to attain this prestigious silverware.


But I think this could go on forever. It’s not like I think you’re being unreasonable, I’m largely trying to provide rationale for why I don’t think I’m being unreasonable


Anyway to precise my argument, there has been nothing in this run of good results that I’ve not seen before. I’ve enjoyed it but I’m forever waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I think in my mind the only unsettled question is not the if but the when.

I do think we will beat Brentford and overturn the deficit against Porto and make the 1/4 finals but ironically I think the latter may be part of precipitating the collapse that I see as likely (history doesn’t repeat but it rhymes)

Now of course this then leads us back to how we consider certain words. Mac I think it was stated that we hadn’t had a collapse this season, my contention is that we have (the one win in seven run over December into January)

My contention is that Arteta’s reign at Arsenal is characterised by the peaks and troughs that we experience under him. If I see evidence in April that these are at an end and we can perform with sustained consistency (the kind Liverpool showed between 2018 and 2020) then I’m open to changing my mind. If not well as I say it’s my view we give someone else a go

[HCZ_Reborn]

Turns out Saka was a little ill on Monday, so the sub wasn't as strategic as i was giving Arteta credit for, in fact you could ask why he even played, if ill, against such a poor side where we didn't need him

Little ill ? Two bob bits ?

Happens to the best of us

On the subject of Saka, I see we’ve been linked with Raphinia again. I have to say I wouldn’t be adverse to that, he’d be a good backup option for Saka if he’s in need of being rested.

[IBK]

I’m sorry if I appear to be being unfair to you but I think you’re in danger of conflating statistics with achievements. The run of seven wins that we racked up last season amounted to 21 goals (which is still three goals in a game). And all statistics tend to be free of the caveats behind them. This caveat is that 11 of the goals we’ve scored have come against two of the worst teams in premier league history who have long ago abandoned any hope of premier league survival, now of course goals don’t count any less no matter who you score them against (and nor should they). And nor is it any poor reflection on us, in both the Burnley and Sheffield United games we took a totally professional attitude in order to bolster our goal difference.
If I appear to be singling out words, it’s because I think it’s important to understand how despite us both having the same broad definition of a word, how our perception of how it does or does not apply to Arsenal currently differs.

For example, if Arsenal were to win the European cup….you would think it an extraordinary achievement, I’d think it was a good one. You’re not incorrect to call it extraordinary because it differs in the sense that we as a club have not won this competition before. However the way I look at it, it’s not extraordinary because it would be line with the model of Chelsea and Manchester City spending money in order to attain this prestigious silverware.


But I think this could go on forever. It’s not like I think you’re being unreasonable, I’m largely trying to provide rationale for why I don’t think I’m being unreasonable


Anyway to precise my argument, there has been nothing in this run of good results that I’ve not seen before. I’ve enjoyed it but I’m forever waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I think in my mind the only unsettled question is not the if but the when.

I do think we will beat Brentford and overturn the deficit against Porto and make the 1/4 finals but ironically I think the latter may be part of precipitating the collapse that I see as likely (history doesn’t repeat but it rhymes)

Now of course this then leads us back to how we consider certain words. Mac I think it was stated that we hadn’t had a collapse this season, my contention is that we have (the one win in seven run over December into January)

My contention is that Arteta’s reign at Arsenal is characterised by the peaks and troughs that we experience under him. If I see evidence in April that these are at an end and we can perform with sustained consistency (the kind Liverpool showed between 2018 and 2020) then I’m open to changing my mind. If not well as I say it’s my view we give someone else a go

Fair enough. I'm bored with this now and I don't have to be right. I think it is clear that our manager has transformed our team to one that we haven't seen in 20 years. But if you disagree that's cool.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think with Saliba we definitely would have taken it to the end. Another issue though was probably how chaotic we were making games, going life and death for points is going to catch up with you eventually and that’s what happened. This season I think there’s definitely a lot more maturity in limiting how opponents are able to attack us. It came at a cost of our forward play being very stodgy in the first part of the season but now everyone has found their scoring boots it’s starting to look very polished.

I don’t anticipate a collapse like last season, I’m just of the opinion that we are likely to get 1 or 2 more bum results than Liverpool and City in the final stretch which will make it too difficult for us to stay on top should we find ourselves out in front.

I’m comfortable with us being an outside bet though as we all know that whatever incarnation of Arsenal there’s been for 20 years, struggling to deal with the pressure and weight of expectation has always been an underlying issue.


1 or 2 bum results you’re right would not represent a collapse


But there is the potential of playing a quarter final and maybe even semi final of the Champions league tie alongside league fixtures


Say we make the quarters


We would play City away on Easter Sunday, Luton at home three days later, Brighton away Saturday evening, Then the first leg of the 1/4 finals before playing Villa and then the second leg before back to back away matches at Wolves and Spurs

Luton aside…no easy games there to bolster our goal difference. Just a lot of potential bear traps. That nothing I’ve seen so far this season has given me belief that we are able to contend with.


So my proposition is simple


If come May 1st, we are in contention for both the league and the European cup. I think we will have done exceptionally well

Contention means reaching the semi finals of UCL, and being in no more than around 2-4 points off top spot


If we are in contention for one of those things, we’ve done quite well


If as I suspect we will resemble a burst tyre, then I see no reason to believe why my opinion that we should move Arteta on is either harsh or precipitous

[Mac76]

If as I suspect we will resemble a burst tyre, then I see no reason to believe why my opinion that we should move Arteta on is either harsh or precipitous

Why would it be his fault though?

OK, if when Zin recovers Arteta brings him back in and plays him in every game then i will blame him for a monumental error, but if he picks the best sides available to him, including a bit of regular rotation, and alters his tactics appropriately and the players put in performances which show a real drive to win, then succeed or fail I'm not sure he will be too much to blame

Last season we suffered from his not rotating and the players getting tired/losing their nerve, this season may be different - we'll see but we're already looking better than previously which is the point we're all making to you

Citeh away will be a real test - if we can just get a draw it would be huge, especially if Citeh and Liverpool draw this weekend and we beat Brentford (which we absolutely should)

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why would it be his fault though?

OK, if when Zin recovers Arteta brings him back in and plays him in every game then i will blame him for a monumental error, but if he picks the best sides available to him, including a bit of regular rotation, and alters his tactics appropriately and the players put in performances which show a real drive to win, then succeed or fail I'm not sure he will be too much to blame

Last season we suffered from his not rotating and the players getting tired/losing their nerve, this season may be different - we'll see but we're already looking better than previously which is the point we're all making to you

Citeh away will be a real test - if we can just get a draw it would be huge, especially if Citeh and Liverpool draw this weekend and we beat Brentford (which we absolutely should)

President Harry S Truman had a sign on the desk of the Oval Office when he occupied it, the sign says “The buck stops here”

Take away your obsession with Zinchenko for a second (I was only joking about it but you’ve brought him up twice in this debate unprompted :haha:) and the claim has been made Arteta has had the most transformative effect on the team in twenty years. Now I appreciate this isn’t a statement you’ve made, but how can that be true and then it also be true that he bears no responsibility if the team collapses in April.

You lose one game, it’s the coach’s job to assess what went wrong and to do what he can to prevent any hangover in the subsequent games thereafter…if they cannot do that well either he is incapable or the players are not mentally strong enough and given that in the main these are his players which he’s spent a great deal of money on, I cannot see how this is not his failure

Freak injuries can happen for sure, but most injuries tend to be soft tissue injury where the player is prone to these type of injuries or has been overused or overworked in training.


If the contention is that these players are good enough to compete, and by competing we have to mean competing when it comes to the crunch not just flirting with a challenge post Xmas and give up bottling for lent, only to re-take up the habbit after Easter.

Then what are we left with, if we aren’t still competitive by May?. Oh we will definitely be there next season? On what basis is such an assertion being made. By inflating our XG record against teams that are about as capable as non league teams


I can’t understand how these goals are unreasonable. And how it can be seen as anything other than failure if they aren’t met.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Antony? Yeah have to say he’s looked like a good signing for United even with the money they’ve spent on him

Jaysus, there’s a comment that really hasn’t stood the test of time

::yikes:

[Mac76]

President Harry S Truman had a sign on the desk of the Oval Office when he occupied it, the sign says “The buck stops here”

Take away your obsession with Zinchenko for a second (I was only joking about it but you’ve brought him up twice in this debate unprompted :haha:) and the claim has been made Arteta has had the most transformative effect on the team in twenty years. Now I appreciate this isn’t a statement you’ve made, but how can that be true and then it also be true that he bears no responsibility if the team collapses in April.

You lose one game, it’s the coach’s job to assess what went wrong and to do what he can to prevent any hangover in the subsequent games thereafter…if they cannot do that well either he is incapable or the players are not mentally strong enough and given that in the main these are his players which he’s spent a great deal of money on, I cannot see how this is not his failure

Freak injuries can happen for sure, but most injuries tend to be soft tissue injury where the player is prone to these type of injuries or has been overused or overworked in training.


If the contention is that these players are good enough to compete, and by competing we have to mean competing when it comes to the crunch not just flirting with a challenge post Xmas and give up bottling for lent, only to re-take up the habbit after Easter.

Then what are we left with, if we aren’t still competitive by May?. Oh we will definitely be there next season? On what basis is such an assertion being made. By inflating our XG record against teams that are about as capable as non league teams


I can’t understand how these goals are unreasonable. And how it can be seen as anything other than failure if they aren’t met.

I wouldn't use the word 'obsessed' but yes I do centre on Zin when assessing Arteta's learning curve because his being an automatic pick at LB was sheer folly, Aryeta started picking Tomi at times which showed he was starting to see Zin's failings and I hope he gradually fades from the side

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/26418850/barcelona-call-mikel-arteta-manager-xavi-arsenal/amp/


:coffee:

[Mac76]

I won't click on an article in The Scum, what does it say?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I won't click on an article in The Scum, what does it say?

Either read it or don’t, I’m not an exegete, catering for your petty political biases

[Mac76]

Either read it or don’t, I’m not an exegete, catering for your petty political biases

it's not so much political as i just hate that kind of gutter-raking tabloid trash paper which constantly lies and damages ordinary people's lives

[HCZ_Reborn]

it's not so much political as i just hate that kind of gutter-raking tabloid trash paper which constantly lies and damages ordinary people's lives

So to be clear, if the link had been from the Mirror as opposed to the Sun you would have the same/similar objections?

[Mac76]

So to be clear, if the link had been from the Mirror as opposed to the Sun you would have the same/similar objections?

No I don't think the Mirror is as bad as the Scum, you'll no doubt draw your own conclusions based on that but it's the Scum which is much more likely to stir up prejudices and division - the fact that it's the right in general which is more prone to doing such things is obviously a factor but it's not because the Scum is right-wing per se that i say it

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I don't think the Mirror is as bad as the Scum, you'll no doubt draw your own conclusions based on that but it's the Scum which is much more likely to stir up prejudices and division - the fact that it's the right in general which is more prone to doing such things is obviously a factor but it's not because the Scum is right-wing per se that i say it

I like the mental gymnastics you’re doing to avoid admitting your biases


Now admittedly I’m pretty bad for pigeon holing people, it’s very lazy. But I really have no time for these so called principled stances no matter what side of the aisle it’s from. The whole thing about the Sun in Liverpool is a nonsense, because you routinely can find it for sale without much difficulty no matter how many people argue that there’s a city wide boycott in solidarity.

They wouldn’t stock it, if they knew no bugger in the city would buy it.

It’s not that Kelvin McKenzie isn’t a cunt, of course he is…but so what? After all it was South Yorkshire constabulary and Peter Wright who were responsible for the perception about Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough sticking more than a shabby outrage article in the Sun.

And I think people who go on about papers like this sewing division are really in massive denial about the nature of the species they belong to.

[Mac76]

I didn't mention Liverpool, that's you projecting

There's still a lot of people who still think that situation is more nuanced than it's now acceptable to say in public, the Scum did go all-in on it though which was characteriatically trouble-stirring and divisive

[Chippy]

I won't click on an article in The Scum, what does it say?

Hmmmmm.... I suspect a Mirror reader or indeed, the Morning Star? :coffee:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I didn't mention Liverpool, that's you projecting

There's still a lot of people who still think that situation is more nuanced than it's now acceptable to say in public, the Scum did go all-in on it though which was characteriatically trouble-stirring and divisive

I wasn’t suggesting for a second you were, I literally used the attitude towards the Sun in Liverpool as an example of how people like to virtue signal.


That said, I do think there is justifiable anger. If people want to claim there is more nuance I think they should feel free to say so, but they are factually wrong. Brian Clough for example spent years claiming that the fans bore some responsibility even though this was purely opinion based on his part as when asked about it he never tried to claim that he witnessed any incident personally that would back up his belief. But there had been pitch invasions at the city ground (by Forest fans) and there was a notable incident of him chinning one and then making the same person give him a kiss on the cheek in a press conference a day later :haha:.



The truth about Hillsborough is fairly straight forward. There’d almost been a similar crush the previous year (another fa cup semi final tie between Forest and Liverpool).

The Liverpool fans had gained a reputation for trouble making from Heysel which led to putting fencing up between the terraces and the pitch.

But David Duckenfeld had never been a matchday commander previously, he was put in the role because the previous matchday commander had been suspended over bullying allegations (the type of thing Peter Wright would usually ignore because the man was a scumbag) and he basically had little understanding either of the role or the layout of the ground.

Now Liverpool like last year had been given allocation in the Leppings lane end which was too small anyway but because of the fear of them misbehaving it was better to have them in one small area. The Forest fans were all in the Spion Kop at the other side of the ground.

The concourse outside the Leppings lane ground wasn’t very large, triangular shaped area with wooden fences on either side reinforced with corrugated iron. And a bottleneck was being created by fans who were waiting to get in because there simply weren’t enough turnstiles for everyone to get through quickly, and Duckenfeld panicked and opened one of the side pens precipitating the very problem he was trying to avoid. Because opening that side pen rather than shutting it off and shepherding the fans through a passage that would open out into the main area of the stand, it pushed them all into the already overcrowded section.

Then they mistook people climbing over the fence for a pitch invasion and this is why they delayed allowing Ambulances on the pitch, because they were more scared about dealing with a riot that never materialised than getting people emergency care.

The police on duty when they realised what was happening, I think did try their best to help…helping fans tear up the advertising hoardings to use as makeshift stretchers, but the order to cut through the fencing took ages to come because again Duckenfeld partly because he didn’t realise how serious things were and partly because he was still more interested in crowd control gave the order too late.

This was incompetence pure and simple. But that wasn’t what caused this to drag on till today. It was the cover up, the attempt to create a narrative of drunken fans, or fans storming in….Duckenfeld originally lied and said the fans had broken through the pen, but had to retract that statement after CCTV proved it was a lie. McKenzie had ran the article which was based on the account given to a journalist by a right wing Tory MP called Irvine Patnick who was the member for Sheffield Hallam.

Patnick of course was a golfing buddy of Peter Wright….so even South Yorkshire were indirectly responsible for perpetuating that.

The fans were actually exonerated by the Taylor report a year later. The subsequent tribunals and enquries were about whether a) the police had instigated a cover up (they had) and b) Whether more people could have been saved if police had acted quicker…..which ultimately the Bishop of Liverpool enquiry in 2012 concluded that about half of the 97 who died could have been saved if police had allowed ambulances on the pitch before they did and if they had cut the fencing before they did.


This is all clear and unambiguous, but don’t believe me…it’s a matter of public record

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hmmmmm.... I suspect a Mirror reader or indeed, the Morning Star? :coffee:

I have no idea what his age is, but unless he’s over 50 it’s unlikely he reads print media full stop.

I read the Independent and The New Statesman at times up till about 2015 when one became ideologically captured by what we now call Wokeism and the other captured by Corbynism.

I now largely just read articles online until I encounter a pay wall. If the article is worth reading I don’t care if it appears in the Guardian or the Mail.

Same attitude with American journalism, don’t care if it’s the New York Times or New York Post.

[Mac76]

Hmmmmm.... I suspect a Mirror reader or indeed, the Morning Star? :coffee:

try reading the rest of the thread

[WMUG]

Anyway, the article was claiming that the Barcelona were sniffing around for Arteta to replace Xavi.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway, the article was claiming that the Barcelona were sniffing around for Arteta to replace Xavi.

The thing is with that, Arteta may be no where near as intelligent as he thinks he is. Hes smart enough to know that Barcelona don’t have great spending power, have a squad full of average or ageing players and he absolutely wouldn’t get the authority he enjoys here or be given the time he’s been given here to win major silverware.

Although he has history with Barcelona as a youth player, he was never considered good enough to make it into the first team and given that he’s from the Basque region there’s no particular emotional draw for him either.

Pity from my perspective, but zero chance he’d go there

[Mac76]

Anyway, the article was claiming that the Barcelona were sniffing around for Arteta to replace Xavi.

Thanks :)

HCZ :pal:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Thanks :)

HCZ :pal:

Fair enough, not really sure why the laughter. It’s not like I said, don’t anyone tell Mac what the article is about so he’s forced to look in the Sun. Whether you read it or not is your own affair, I said I’m not going to be your translator if you’re not going to read the article.

Which is pretty much if you’re going to be awkward, let someone else tell you

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/gunnersc0m/status/1766027971565854794?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw


I think Shearer is right, I don’t think it helps for Arteta to be micromanaging like this. And I doubt players appreciate it from someone who never had much more than an average playing career

[Letters]

You think someone who agrees with you is right?
Extra! Extra! Read all about it!

[Marc Overmars]

https://x.com/gunnersc0m/status/1766027971565854794?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw


I think Shearer is right, I don’t think it helps for Arteta to be micromanaging like this. And I doubt players appreciate it from someone who never had much more than an average playing career

He’s from a different era though, I think footballers these days probably need to be micromanaged a bit more because of the emphasis on tactical play and implementing certain plans. Most of the decent coaches tend to be very active in the dugout now and to be honest it seems to be working most of time. I think this behaviour from Arteta has also helped the fans create more of an atmosphere and positive feeling because it feels like he’s there kicking every ball with us.

You might get the occasional maverick who doesn’t take kindly to authority but players these day are pretty much yes men.

[Mac76]

He’s from a different era though, I think footballers these days probably need to be micromanaged a bit more because of the emphasis on tactical play and implementing certain plans. Most of the decent coaches tend to be very active in the dugout now and to be honest it seems to be working most of time. I think this behaviour from Arteta has also helped the fans create more of an atmosphere and positive feeling because it feels like he’s there kicking every ball with us.

You might get the occasional maverick who doesn’t take kindly to authority but players these day are pretty much yes men.

I'm more leaning towards this now, I thought earlier on Arteta was stifling them but tbf i think he's learnt to cut them a bit more slack here and there

also i think there are some managers who just need to feel involved and so some of it is just hot air, I get the impression a lot of the time players nod and then just do what they'd have done anyway

[HCZ_Reborn]

You think someone who agrees with you is right?
Extra! Extra! Read all about it!

I haven’t really ever mentioned the touchline antics, and I think people like Richard Keys are just being dickheads over it

But I do think players need to be trusted more.

[Letters]

I haven’t really ever mentioned the touchline antics, and I think people like Richard Keys are just being dickheads over it

But I do think players need to be trusted more.
I think there's something in that - Wenger erred to the other extreme. His whole thing was to trust the players. And I guess you could say it mostly worked but it should be noted that when he arrived with us it was his (at the time) revolutionary fitness and diet regime and knowledge of the worldwide game which gave us the edge. When you're better than everyone else you don't need any particularly fancy tactics to win most games. I'd also note that it's probably part of what cost us in Europe under him when we were facing better teams and did need a more tactical approach to get us over the line. So, like with most things in life, there's a balance.

Ultimately, I care about results and so far this season we are getting them. The players seem to respond to what he's doing and that's good enough for me. Just because you don't like Arteta, that doesn't mean the players don't. I've just finished working with someone who was a bit of a micromanager and at times it did annoy me. But she was very good and under her the team were very productive so, overall, I can live with that irritation. While the results are flowing that's probably more important for the players, it's certainly more important for the fans.
Elsewhere you said:


My contention is that Arteta’s reign at Arsenal is characterised by the peaks and troughs that we experience under him.
I mean, I'd suggest that could be said for every manager in the history of football. Even in The Invincibles season there was that week when we crashed out of the two big cups and when we were trailing to Liverpool at half time I did start to think we were going to blow the lot.

I get that you don't like the fella - although I'd suggest once again that you are overestimating your ability to evaluate someone's personality from scraps you've seen on certain TV shows. You seem to think you have very detailed knowledge about the state of his marriage, for example, from literally a few minutes of a highly edited reality show. Not that I'm saying the people who make the show had any particular agenda to portray him in a certain way, but the amount of screentime Arteta's wife had in it was so small, to think you can have any meaningful insight into their relationship from that is a massive stretch. It's like the people on The Traitors who say "I know when someone is lying". Do ya? Well why do you keep voting for other faithfuls then, ya muppets!

Your basic argument in this thread is "I don't like Arteta and we're gonna blow it", to which the only sensible response right now is "well, let's wait and see". I must admit I'm struggling to see us winning the league, but so long as we push City and Liverpool all the way I think that will be enough for me. We've spent big and we all raised an eyebrow at some of our dealings so Arteta has to deliver, but I don't think it's the title or bust for me. The other contenders are too strong and there are too fine lines in some games for that to be the only metric. The game at the Ethiad is key. I'd suggest our results in those big games so far this season has shown a bit of a shift this season. Liverpool have only dropped 4 points at home all season, two of those were us. They've only lost 2 league games all season, one of those was us.

I would note that your predictions this season so far have been patchy at best. I admittedly had a wobbly myself when Arsenal did after Christmas. I started to doubt our Top 4 credentials, having chided you and others for doing so after other setbacks. But, looking back. Top 4 has never been in doubt - Top 3 hasn't been really. Liverpool, City and us are clearly the best 3 sides. Will last year's experience and the signings to bolster the squad get us over the line this time? I wouldn't bet on it. The other two are too strong, their managers are too good. But so long as we keep pushing as hard as we have this calendar year I reckon that's good enough.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My predictions have been patchy at best. The early performances looked like spelling disaster but ultimately we went for a long while where the results were coming even when the performances weren’t. There are some caveats to that, I actually think we played better at Anfield than the pundits suggested we did. I don’t think we lucked out a draw there, we fully deserved one.

But I think (and I don’t think anyone would disagree with me strongly) that the period March 31st - April 27th represents by far the toughest test we will have faced this season.


Four very hard away league matches taken collectively (City, Brighton, Wolves and Spurs) coupled with should we get past Porto a champions league quarter final tie. For most of that period we will be playing twice in a week.


This will test Arteta’s ability to rotate his squad, to deal with setbacks (because we aren’t going to win every game in that period…that would be a tough ask even if you had city’s squad).

But what I’ve said is that we’ve spent enough money to have the squad to be in a position come May 1st where we are either still in contention in the league (maximum 4points behind Top spot) or actually make it through to the semi finals of the European cup.

If come May 1st we are both out of the champions league and whilst mathematically still not out of the title race but have no realistic chance of winning (despite being in a position where of our five remaining games, four of them will be at home) then I don’t think it’s unreasonable to conclude Arteta has failed.


Of course with the league there are factors in play as to whether Liverpool or City win their games. It’s in our power to go second this weekend even if not top. So I accept that our results are relative to the results these other teams get, but we should assume that city and Liverpool will win fixtures where they aren’t playing us or each other so that’s what we need to focus on doing.

It’s my contention that in two previous Aprils where the difficult run of fixtures have come, we’ve folded


In April-May 2022 we won five and lost five


In April-May 2023 we won four, drew three and lost three


My contention isn’t Sack Arteta now because I think we will do likewise in our upcoming fixtures, it’s unless he avoids a similar collapse (which I don’t think he will) I’d let him go at the end of the season.


Hopefully my predictions will prove patchy again (not for Arteta’s sake though)

[Letters]

My contention isn’t Sack Arteta now because I think we will do likewise in our upcoming fixtures, it’s unless he avoids a similar collapse (which I don’t think he will) I’d let him go at the end of the season.
That’s a fairly reasonable position.
He’s been allowed to spend big to bolster the squad to the point where we should be able to cope better with the business end of a season. And last year’s experience should help us, we should be better equipped to deal with the mental pressure.

So if we fold again then I’d agree Arteta has probably taken us as far as he can. He’s made us in to credible contenders again for the first time in ages, which he deserves some credit for.

I wouldn’t immediately know who we should replace him with and it is a risk to replace a manager, given this is very much his squad now. But the buck does stop with him as you indicated previously.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The main thing I will say in Arteta’s favour is I’m probably just about more confident that we can get a decent result against another big team than I would be with Emery or with Wenger in the last few years.

Wenger just wasn’t interested tactically and Emery didn’t know what his best team was

My main frustration with Arteta is lack of rotation, I think in two thirds of games you absolutely pick your best side, but we have the option to tweak that slightly (Today there are a couple of players he could potentially rest without affecting the overall strength of the team). There are three players in our first XI who I think need a rest…Saliba, Rice and Saka. I don’t think they need a rest because their performance levels have dropped, but because they are our three best players this season and I’d rather give them a rest when they are fit, rather than have to plan around them if one of them breaks down.

Unfortunately even with the break of 19 days between Porto and Man City, these guys are all going to be on international duty for some pointless friendly match. So we need to be careful how we use these players in April….for me Arteta should have rested all three at various times during the season a) to give them a break and b) to give backup options minutes so they aren’t thrown in at the deep end if they are ending up starting.

Whilst I think the collapse last season was 50% psychological, there’s simply no doubt that Saliba especially is so integral to how we play in terms of being able to hold a high defensive line that it just made everything that much harder. That and we often see Saka at less than half the effectiveness he shows at the beginning of the season around April (the crunch time so to speak)

I know people who go on about players being pussies and compare it to days where players could easily play 50-60 games a season….unfortunately I also think Arteta labours under that illusion. But Apples and Bowling balls, the game is played at a completely different intensity….opponents like Sheffield United and Burnley are outliers…usually you don’t get easy games in the premier league, you’re made to work for it.

Arteta has done some rotation, and there are games equally where if the lineup is unchanged that makes sense (although I think if we’d played Jorginho from the start against Porto…i think we’d have had more control in midfield and probably won let alone drawn). But the three players I’ve mentioned, play come rain or shine. I’d add Gabriel to that list but as much as I like Gabriel (and I do, he’d be right near the top of the best signings Arteta has made) he probably isn’t as crucial to us as the other three (not far off though). I also of course put my hands up and say that I’m singing a vastly different tune about Rice, he’s not my kind of player…I still think he lacks the engine and the technical ability to be world class. But even though I still wouldn’t have bought him, it would be ridiculous to claim he’s been anything other than integral to us…he’s clearly an intelligent footballer, his work rate is immense and really if not for the fact that it would cause dressing room issues I would make him captain instead of Odegaard because he’s a leader….there’s a bit of the Tony Adams about him without the Alcoholism.

I have clearly a record of being negative, from apocalyptically so earlier on in the season to now where I still work under the assumption that it will go south for us in April. However I’m not looking for converts, I definitely hope I’m wrong and it’s different this time

[HCZ_Reborn]

As for who could replace Arteta. Outside of Pep and Klopp (neither of whom we would get in a million years) there isn’t an obvious candidate who you could say with certainty would do better. But it’s always a gamble, I don’t think we quite want to be as heedless as Chelsea or United are with coaches, but I do think it’s reasonable with any coach to say you get a three year contract and unless something goes disastrously wrong you get the whole three years to build something but if either we haven’t won something substantive or look like we might do so in the next season or two you move them on at the end of that time.

I’m more cautious than I was previously over flavour of the month coaches. I think it’s unquestionable that Xabi Alonso has done a stellar job with Leverkusen. At the risk of being harsh, that Leverkusen team is dog shit….if a premier league team had the same squad Alonso had to work with, they’d be battling relegation.

I’d say Forest in 17th has a better squad than Leverkusen….so it’s exceptional what he’s achieving. However that comes with the caveat that Bayern’s 11 titles is reflective of what has become the dirge of depth of quality in the Bundesliga. There’s quite a few Bundesliga teams that for me would struggle in the championship let alone the Premier league. Also Bayern themselves are simply not the same team they were 3-4 years ago, there’s five players Kane, Musiala, Upemecano, Davies and Gnabry that id probably take at Arsenal. This compared to 2020 when that team was up there with Liverpool and City in terms of quality.

That’s not to say Xabi Alonso wouldn’t be able to do a good job in the premier league, but at the same time I’m not sure even if Arteta was to go that he’d be a great fit for us. He’s more like Diego Simeone in style (although maybe a bit unfair, Simeone is a cunt who gets Atleti to play the most atrociously negative tactics), in that they are far more of a counter attacking team…although that could be a reflection more on the players he has to work with.

Temperament wise, he’s far more like Arteta than Klopp (by that I mean more of an introvert)


So the answer is, I fully accept there isn’t an obvious replacement. But my feeling is that I think to stick indefinitely if I’m right about Arteta because of the fear of “be careful what you wish for” which froze us into inaction with AW, would be an equally regressive move

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also I didn’t factor in fa cup semi final weekend, which Wolves will probably be involved with


So possibly having to play five league games in May because of this

[IBK]

As for who could replace Arteta. Outside of Pep and Klopp (neither of whom we would get in a million years) there isn’t an obvious candidate who you could say with certainty would do better. But it’s always a gamble, I don’t think we quite want to be as heedless as Chelsea or United are with coaches, but I do think it’s reasonable with any coach to say you get a three year contract and unless something goes disastrously wrong you get the whole three years to build something but if either we haven’t won something substantive or look like we might do so in the next season or two you move them on at the end of that time.

I’m more cautious than I was previously over flavour of the month coaches. I think it’s unquestionable that Xabi Alonso has done a stellar job with Leverkusen. At the risk of being harsh, that Leverkusen team is dog shit….if a premier league team had the same squad Alonso had to work with, they’d be battling relegation.

I’d say Forest in 17th has a better squad than Leverkusen….so it’s exceptional what he’s achieving. However that comes with the caveat that Bayern’s 11 titles is reflective of what has become the dirge of depth of quality in the Bundesliga. There’s quite a few Bundesliga teams that for me would struggle in the championship let alone the Premier league. Also Bayern themselves are simply not the same team they were 3-4 years ago, there’s five players Kane, Musiala, Upemecano, Davies and Gnabry that id probably take at Arsenal. This compared to 2020 when that team was up there with Liverpool and City in terms of quality.

That’s not to say Xabi Alonso wouldn’t be able to do a good job in the premier league, but at the same time I’m not sure even if Arteta was to go that he’d be a great fit for us. He’s more like Diego Simeone in style (although maybe a bit unfair, Simeone is a cunt who gets Atleti to play the most atrociously negative tactics), in that they are far more of a counter attacking team…although that could be a reflection more on the players he has to work with.

Temperament wise, he’s far more like Arteta than Klopp (by that I mean more of an introvert)


So the answer is, I fully accept there isn’t an obvious replacement. But my feeling is that I think to stick indefinitely if I’m right about Arteta because of the fear of “be careful what you wish for” which froze us into inaction with AW, would be an equally regressive move

And this is the issue. It's easy to point out problems but more difficult to come up with solutions. There comes a time of course when you have to accept that a manager has taken a team as far as they can, and take the risk with someone else to try to attain an ultimate goal. But that risk needs to be approached sensibly. I think we as football fans can be tempted to believe that the next new thing will lead to the success we crave. But there is no way to assess the huge number of variables that are required for this to happen. By and large (bar a few exceptions) football success tends to be difficult, if not impossible to predict. Who before this season would have backed Alonso to be running away with the Bundesliga? Who predicted that our ex manager would be doing so well in the EPL? Many people were even writing Klopp off last season...its the unpredictablility that makes football so complelling. You only need to look at Manure and Chelsea to see how trying to chase the next high can come undone.

So with Arsenal the question has to be whether Arteta is showing the ability to improve. Is his judgment sound? Does he have the qualities likely to achieve success? I'd say that to a great extent, he has already shown this. And it would take a complete collapse this season (not failure to win anything) to justify not letting him have at least another season to try to win something big, IMO.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well I think I’ve stated clearly what my criteria are for keeping Arteta beyond this season and that’s simply to still be in contention for either the champions league or the premier league (no more than 4 points behind the leader) by May 1st

My rationale for saying that we should move him on is the belief that we will not be in contention for either by then.

I would also say that it’s not a case of having the expectation that a replacement will do a better job…its a bit like an election where if people vote against the incumbent it’s because they believe the incumbent hasn’t done a good job and they’d prefer to give a chance to someone else.

[IBK]

Well I think I’ve stated clearly what my criteria are for keeping Arteta beyond this season and that’s simply to still be in contention for either the champions league or the premier league (no more than 4 points behind the leader) by May 1st

My rationale for saying that we should move him on is the belief that we will not be in contention for either by then.

I would also say that it’s not a case of having the expectation that a replacement will do a better job…its a bit like an election where if people vote against the incumbent it’s because they believe the incumbent hasn’t done a good job and they’d prefer to give a chance to someone else.

I think that's actually a fair criterion in and of itself.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/68551133.amp


Conceição has form for this, in the recent past he’s accused Guardiola and Tuchel of using insulting language against him.

Which suggests to me that either he’s a liar as well as a sore loser, or that he’s hallucinating this and he’s high functioning schizophrenic

[Mac76]

who cares, Conceicao is history for us, bye bye loser

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m not bothered I just find it peculiar behaviour.

The most generous I can probably be to the claim is that Hijo de puta (son of a bitch) is commonly used to express disdain/frustration and that Conceicao has chosen to take this as directed towards him

But even if that’s the case, get a life you pansy

[IBK]

I’m not bothered I just find it peculiar behaviour.

The most generous I can probably be to the claim is that Hijo de puta (son of a bitch) is commonly used to express disdain/frustration and that Conceicao has chosen to take this as directed towards him

But even if that’s the case, get a life you pansy

What a prick. It was immensely satisfying to see him and his spoiler team run out of town.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Felt it was good to keep this thread dusted off and ready to go

[Niall_Quinn]

Arteta has done really well. Some seriously good shit from him in changing the Wenger bore ball into something watchable. We've been in the hunt but we're carrying crippling disadvantages. There is a loser mentality that has been with this club for 2 decades. It stemmed from turning defeat into a Top 4 Trophy. That's when the club embraced losing. It made us one of the "other" clubs that can do a Crystal Palace vs Liverpool, but, come on dudes, we're not actually winning anything. We're the entertainment, NOT the challenger. What more do you expect Arteta to do if Arsenal is happy being a Top 4 triumphant cash-cow, get in there bank account, bring me the sweet ECL revenue, club? Money! Money! Money! I'm cumming!

[Letters]

Felt it was good to keep this thread dusted off and ready to go

:lol:

In case of emergency bump thread!

[HCZ_Reborn]

No Arteta has not done a great job

He’s spent a lot of the clubs money to try and make us a Man City lite. The fucker wouldn’t know a counter attack if he pissed on one.

And I’m sorry but the Tippity Tappity bullshit you decry is very much still alive under Arteta, the only difference is we added a different dimension to our play with set piece play

The guy isn’t fit to lace Wenger’s shoes

[Niall_Quinn]

No Arteta has not done a great job

He’s spent a lot of the clubs money to try and make us a Man City lite. The fucker wouldn’t know a counter attack if he pissed on one.

And I’m sorry but the Tippity Tappity bullshit you decry is very much still alive under Arteta, the only difference is we added a different dimension to our play with set piece play

The guy isn’t fit to lace Wenger’s shoes

Yeah he has, you dick. Great defence. Best in the league. Best goal difference, which means we are scoring. He's done the shit that was expected of him. But it's that voodoo loser streak that Wenger baked into the club. Not sure anyone can overcome that attention to failure.

[Niall_Quinn]

This argument is beyond you. You don't have enough brain cells to hold the last 20 years and then overlay the response to those 20 years. I do, in a blink. So you will always view it in the short term and be convinced of your conclusions. And i will never be able to convince you your conclusions are based on immediate data. Therefore no point arguing, you aren't capable of understanding the parameters , context or scope of the argument. Don't fret, there are many people like you. The majority. Which is why democracy sucks.

[Chippy]

Yeah he has, you dick. Great defence. Best in the league. Best goal difference, which means we are scoring. He's done the shit that was expected of him. But it's that voodoo loser streak that Wenger baked into the club. Not sure anyone can overcome that attention to failure.
Whatever good he has done, today was a massive disappointment. It happens every fucking year when we are in a good position.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This argument is beyond you. You don't have enough brain cells to hold the last 20 years and then overlay the response to those 20 years. I do, in a blink. So you will always view it in the short term and be convinced of your conclusions. And i will never be able to convince you your conclusions are based on immediate data. Therefore no point arguing, you aren't capable of understanding the parameters , context or scope of the argument. Don't fret, there are many people like you. The majority. Which is why democracy sucks.

Now who’s becoming emotional

You’re the classic example of how human beings see patterns in everything

Wenger can’t hurt you anymore. The only people that are still at the club from Wenger’s time are The Kroenkes ..otherwise known as the people who have been bankrolling our transfer splurges.


No more Gazidis, no more Hill Wood….even Gunnersaurus was handed his cards

This team is Arteta’s

The goalkeeper and back four are his purchases


The midfield are his purchases


That useless Jesus is his purchase. He gets the Credit but he also takes the responsibility.

[Niall_Quinn]

Now who’s becoming emotional

You’re the classic example of how human beings see patterns in everything

Wenger can’t hurt you anymore. The only people that are still at the club from Wenger’s time are The Kroenkes ..otherwise known as the people who have been bankrolling our transfer splurges.


No more Gazidis, no more Hill Wood….even Gunnersaurus was handed his cards

This team is Arteta’s

The goalkeeper and back four are his purchases


The midfield are his purchases


That useless Jesus is his purchase. He gets the Credit but he also takes the responsibility.

That's FAR from emotional. Just stating the obvious. If you think Arteta should be sacked you are clearly and idiot. Yes? What other Arsenal manager has had us in a genuine title hunt in the last month of the season? And he should be sacked for that? Quite obviously you re an idiot. You admitted it when you posted. So, be genuine and please post the fact your are an idiot in the response. Do you have the balls to do it?

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's FAR from emotional. Just stating the obvious. If you think Arteta should be sacked you are clearly and idiot. Yes? What other Arsenal manager has had us in a genuine title hunt in the last month of the season? And he should be sacked for that? Quite obviously you re an idiot. You admitted it when you posted. So, be genuine and please post the fact your are an idiot in the response. Do you have the balls to do it?

The last month of the season is May

You might think we are still going to be in with a chance in May. I don’t

He should be sacked because he’s taken as far as he can. April has continually been a minefield for him, 2022, 2023 and now this season.

If you got over your weird Wenger obsession, I take you calling me an idiot as a compliment.

[Letters]

Arteta has done really well. Some seriously good shit from him in changing the Wenger bore ball into something watchable. We've been in the hunt but we're carrying crippling disadvantages. There is a loser mentality that has been with this club for 2 decades. It stemmed from turning defeat into a Top 4 Trophy. That's when the club embraced losing. It made us one of the "other" clubs that can do a Crystal Palace vs Liverpool, but, come on dudes, we're not actually winning anything. We're the entertainment, NOT the challenger. What more do you expect Arteta to do if Arsenal is happy being a Top 4 triumphant cash-cow, get in there bank account, bring me the sweet ECL revenue, club? Money! Money! Money! I'm cumming!

I don't think you can blame Wenger or anyone else for Top 4 becoming an aim in PL football - it's absolutely not just us, fans of all teams in the top half who aren't in serious title contention talk about Top 4. I literally just finished a conversation with a Spurs fan who has a dilemma this week. He wants Arsenal out of the CL but he needs us to progress so 5th place gets a CL place. The CL brings the prestige and the money to compete. You're either in that select group of clubs or you're not, and everyone wants to be. It shouldn't be like this, but it's part of modern football. I think we are fairly aligned that a lot of things in modern football are shit, and this is one of them.
But I can agree that Wenger and Arsenal in general prioritised it too highly. They might argue that we had to keep qualifying for the CL in order to pay the mortgage on the stadium and we didn't have the finances to seriously compete beyond that.

And I do think Arteta has done a good job. Yes, he's spent big but he's got us from a side who were struggling to finish top 4 to a side in genuine contention for the title. We shat our pants today but we've passed a lot of tests this year - 4 points from Liverpool and City, getting to the CL Quarters for the first time in 14 years. The run since Christmas has been very impressive and put us right in the title race. We have looked like a side who have matured this season and looked more up for the fight at the business end of the season. Today did feel like "same old Arsenal" but Liverpool shat their pants too against a worse side than we were playing. It happens.

But Wenger left in 2018, this is largely Arteta's side now and the back office staff aren't Wenger's either. When a new government is elected they always blame the previous one for a lot of the mess but the longer the new one are in power the less valid that reasoning becomes. I do sense more of a commitment to compete at the top level. Today was a big setback and it's not one I expected us to recover from, so well oiled is the City machine. But we know how those fuckers got there too. Take them out of the equation and we'd have been champions last year and could well have been this year too.

[Niall_Quinn]

The last month of the season is May

You might think we are still going to be in with a chance in May. I don’t

He should be sacked because he’s taken as far as he can. April has continually been a minefield for him, 2022, 2023 and now this season.

If you got over your weird Wenger obsession, I take you calling me an idiot as a compliment.

So we go back to the question I asked. WHO replaces him and WHAT will the godhead bring? Only crazy peoole jump in the hope some randomness might save them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So we go back to the question I asked. WHO replaces him and WHAT will the godhead bring? Only crazy peoole jump in the hope some randomness might save them.

I’m one of these crazy people who thinks that a coach should be given three years and if they’ve not achieved anything of note in that time, it’s time to move them on


This thread contains the parameters I set by which Arteta should be kept on beyond May, and unless something big changes he’s going to fail those tests.


What you are harping on about is some nebulous mindset that can’t be defeated because it’s a phantom projection.


But who would I bring in? Who cares? I don’t think there’s a magician who can perform miracles. It’s about ok chief you’ve had your chance…you fucked it up…next please

[Niall_Quinn]

So, yada, yada, WHO? WHO? And WHY?

[Letters]

I’m one of these crazy people who thinks that a coach should be given three years and if they’ve not achieved anything of note in that time, it’s time to move them on

This thread contains the parameters I set by which Arteta should be kept on beyond May, and unless something big changes he’s going to fail those tests.

I guess the question is whether they are reasonable tests.
I mean, he's made us genuine title contenders which we haven't been since 2008. Yes, we've spent money to get there but you pretty much have to in football these days and clubs like Chelsea and Utd have shown you can splash money around to very little effect. What I want to see is a club heading in the right direction. I do feel I've seen progress this year - we've passed tests we failed last season. Today was a worrying relapse but Villa are chasing Top 4 and the sort of run we've been on can't last forever. If we completely fall away now then I may join you on the bandwaggon but if we do miss out but make City work for it then I think I can live with that. I do fear given our remaining fixtures that City could romp home and we could finish a poor 3rd, but let's see I guess.

[Marc Overmars]

I’m not prepared to cry about a run of 10 wins from 11 ending. That’s a better run than we managed this time last year. Plus taking 4 points off City and Liverpool is something that we all deemed essential if we had designs on winning the league.

I will hold off on judgement for now because the season is still alive. I have my suspicions at how the next few weeks will pan out but I don’t blame anyone for thinking “here we go again”.

[The Wengerbabies]

Klopp is free in the summer. Time to switch it up?

[dazthegooner]

Klopp won't manage another premiership team he'll probably take a year off and take over at Leverkusen the following season when Alonso takes over when the person who takes over the Liverpool job is sacked :good:

[dostoy]

This is a stupid thread.

He will not be sacked for a few years yet.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This is a stupid thread.

He will not be sacked for a few years yet.

And that’s not a good thing

[Letters]

I’m not prepared to cry about a run of 10 wins from 11 ending. That’s a better run than we managed this time last year. Plus taking 4 points off City and Liverpool is something that we all deemed essential if we had designs on winning the league.

I will hold off on judgement for now because the season is still alive. I have my suspicions at how the next few weeks will pan out but I don’t blame anyone for thinking “here we go again”.

The thing that sets off big alarm bells for me is how confident I was yesterday morning and then how immediately nervous I was after the Liverpool results - you felt that too. And it seems the players did as well. We haven't lost a league game this calendar year - in fact, we've won the lot apart from City away which was a very creditable result. The minute Liverpool lose and we have a real opportunity to take the title race by the scruff of the neck we blow it.

Obviously we were playing a good team, not for nothing are they battling for Top 4, outside the top 3 they're probably the best of the rest. But still, City despatched them at home recently with a minimum of fuss.

I'll say one thing, there are fine lines in football, we missed a few chances in the first half, Martinez made a good save from Odegard. On another day one of those goes in and we might well have won the game. But while we've passed some big tests this year, we're still not quite able to get over the line. I don't think Arteta should be sacked right now, but I wonder whether he can land a big trophy. Not that I would immediately know who could come in and do so.

[Mac76]

I think Rice said they didn't know the Liverpool result until after the Villa game, not sure if that's good or bad really

[Letters]

I think Rice said they didn't know the Liverpool result until after the Villa game, not sure if that's good or bad really
That's interesting. I did wonder if they'd deliberately not found out so it didn't affect them.
Although I wonder in practice how possible that is these days.

[Mac76]

That's interesting. I did wonder if they'd deliberately not found out so it didn't affect them.
Although I wonder in practice how possible that is these days.

actually, looking at it again, he says "I turned my phone off [before the game], so I didn’t know the [Liverpool] result. I have just seen it then when I have come back in. So it is even a bit more of a kick in the teeth seeing that result."

so not clear if others knew but presumably none of them did or it would have got around...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/declan-rice-demands-arsenal-reaction-ahead-of-perfect-bayern-munich-showdown/ar-BB1lDNCZ

[IBK]

With a couple of days to reflect, I'll admit to feeling that I have a split personality over Sunday's result.

On the one hand, it both hurts and in hindsight seems like this was in great part due to the manager failing short term to pick the right side; and longer term a result of his playing key parts of our spine into the ground - we looked totally out of gas.

On the other, Arteta's intention was clearly to pick a team that would go ahead early, and allow him perhaps to sub some players on and keep it tight. Our first half seemed to justify this selection. We played well and should have been 2 up by half time. It was our failure to do so that hurt us, as Villa - a talented team - smelt blood and employed their tactics - ie to keep it tight and score on the counter - to perfection.

This was a home game, and we needed to win to enhance our chances of taking the league. I can see why the manager tried to be positive. It didn't work, but I think that the pain of almost certainly now being outsiders for the title obscures the fact that in Citeh we face a relentless juggernaught that puts pressure on the competition before a ball is kicked. I'm still gutted, but trying to be objective perhaps I feel less angry when I realise that I wanted to kill our team on Sunday for failing to achieve perfection...which is an unrealistic expectation.

That said, if I don't see a bounce back from this and we fall off like we did last season, then I too may start to question whether the manager really has what it takes to progress with us...

[Chippy]

Ok, I will get this going.
Another season ends in Mid April after another promising start ends with nothing.
We had the chance to beat a weak Munich side and reach the CL semi-final and we failed. This was following a piss poor performance against Villa. Time to go Mikel.

[Marc Overmars]

We’ll see what happens with the league, if we can take it to the end then I’d respect that and just accept it wasn’t meant to be. If we give up and spiral out of control I wouldn’t really blame anyone for suggesting a new coach is needed to kick us on.

Arteta has done a great job taking us to this level but there’s obviously a bit of a glass ceiling in place that for whatever reason we keep struggling to overcome. We did not go out fighting last night, we went out with a whimper and that’s a huge red flag.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Winning the next three games is a must. No ifs, ands or buts

[Letters]

We’ll see what happens with the league, if we can take it to the end then I’d respect that and just accept it wasn’t meant to be. If we give up and spiral out of control I wouldn’t really blame anyone for suggesting a new coach is needed to kick us on.

Arteta has done a great job taking us to this level but there’s obviously a bit of a glass ceiling in place that for whatever reason we keep struggling to overcome. We did not go out fighting last night, we went out with a whimper and that’s a huge red flag.
I mostly agree with this although I saw the second half last night and thought we did OK.
This is not a "weak" Bayern side, for all their domestic wobbles this year they're still a good side with a load of experience at this level. We closed them down well and restricted them to few chances. After their goal the game became more open so inevitably that gave Bayern more chances but even then I thought we defended well. We were ineffective up front and that is a bit of a concern but not a surprise. You're not going to get many chances in a game like this, when they do come along you need someone clinical who can take them. We know we don't have that in our locker right now.
I don't agree with Chippy that the Villa performance was "piss poor" either, first half we dominated them, on another day we could have been a couple of goals up at half time. Villa are a good side. Disappointing result certainly - I'm still more annoyed about that one than last night - but it wasn't a thumping against a side who should be cannon fodder for us.

I see this team as a work in progress. I do feel there's been some progression since last year. 4 points from Liverpool, 4 points from City. They've been standing up in some of the big games that failed in last season. But if we do completely collapse now then that would be very worrying and make me think Arteta can't take us any further. We have to beat Wolves, go top and put a bit of pressure on. I suspect it won't worry City, but they might have a bit of a CL hangover themselves, if Chelsea beat then at the weekend (unlikely, I suspect) then maybe they'll have a wobble and we could get back in it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I mostly agree with this although I saw the second half last night and thought we did OK.
This is not a "weak" Bayern side, for all their domestic wobbles this year they're still a good side with a load of experience at this level. We closed them down well and restricted them to few chances. After their goal the game became more open so inevitably that gave Bayern more chances but even then I thought we defended well. We were ineffective up front and that is a bit of a concern but not a surprise. You're not going to get many chances in a game like this, when they do come along you need someone clinical who can take them. We know we don't have that in our locker right now.
I don't agree with Chippy that the Villa performance was "piss poor" either, first half we dominated them, on another day we could have been a couple of goals up at half time. Villa are a good side. Disappointing result certainly - I'm still more annoyed about that one than last night - but it wasn't a thumping against a side who should be cannon fodder for us.

I see this team as a work in progress. I do feel there's been some progression since last year. 4 points from Liverpool, 4 points from City. They've been standing up in some of the big games that failed in last season. But if we do completely collapse now then that would be very worrying and make me think Arteta can't take us any further. We have to beat Wolves, go top and put a bit of pressure on. I suspect it won't worry City, but they might have a bit of a CL hangover themselves, if Chelsea beat then at the weekend (unlikely, I suspect) then maybe they'll have a wobble and we could get back in it.

I disagree completely, whilst it’s all relative this very much is a weak Bayern side

The Bayern side that walloped us 10-2 was miles better than this one in almost every area of the pitch

It’s no coincidence that they hadn’t got past the 1/4 finals since 2020. They beat United in both games because United are appalling.

But this was an eminently beatable Bayern side, one I would argue that certainly would be no tougher to beat than Spurs over two legs and we botched it

[Marc Overmars]

There was nothing special in how Bayern performed over the 2 legs, they were just solid and looked after the ball a lot better than we did. We shit the bed in the first leg and it was quite obvious in the second half last night there was no belief that we could get a result. We won the ball back a lot in dangerous areas but once we needed to make decisions we started to dither and the forwards became static. Only Rice and Odegaard were trying to crank up the tempo, Saka, Martinelli and Havertz were hiding all game.

This was a doable task for us but we didn’t handle the occasion very well at all. You only had to look at their relief at the final whistle at getting through. When the draw was made we were considered favourites for this tie even in Germany.

[Letters]

When the draw was made we were considered favourites for this tie even in Germany.
Really? Did you consider us favourites? I certainly didn't. I didn't think we were underdogs either.
I agree they were beatable but they're not cannon fodder who we should have been sweeping aside.

Bayern would wallop Spurs over 2 legs, HCZ :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Really? Did you consider us favourites? I certainly didn't. I didn't think we were underdogs either.
I agree they were beatable but they're not cannon fodder who we should have been sweeping aside.

Bayern would wallop Spurs over 2 legs, HCZ :lol:

I’m sorry but that’s not true. United were close to getting a draw against them in Munich. They have a couple of very good players - Kane, Musiala and Davies. The rest are average to good. Goretzka, Kimmich….Sane and Gnabry are often inconsistent and Coman is a busted flush

Real Madrid will absolutely turn them over as City would have done

[Marc Overmars]

Really? Did you consider us favourites? I certainly didn't. I didn't think we were underdogs either.
I agree they were beatable but they're not cannon fodder who we should have been sweeping aside.

Bayern would wallop Spurs over 2 legs, HCZ :lol:

We were actually third favourites for the competition, which astounded me. :lol:

I thought it was a 50/50 tie and to be fair both legs panned out that way. I just felt that we didn’t cover ourselves in much glory here and didn’t leave it all out there on the pitch. I didn’t expect to go through after the first leg but I can’t really accept not even having a shot in the second half and corners not even clearing the front post. You wouldn’t have thought that we were losing and chasing a goal to stay in the tournament given the lack of urgency. You could just see the belief dwindling and that’s not something you’d really associate with winning teams.

[Letters]

I’m sorry but that’s not true.
Which part?

[Letters]

We were actually third favourites for the competition, which astounded me. :lol:
I saw that, but God alone knows what that was based on. Always felt like complete bullshit to me.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Which part?

That Bayern would wipe the floor with Spurs

[Letters]

That Bayern would wipe the floor with Spurs

Well, it's not true. Or false. We're talking about a theoretical tie which hasn't happened and won't happen. Not this season anyway.

I'm not sure what value cherry picking past results brings. My general feeling is Bayern are better than Spurs. It's a bit hard to compare across leagues of course but certainly if Spurs drew Bayern I'd regard the latter as pretty strong favourites.
Spurs are better at counter attacking than us so they might have scored more than we did, but they're not as strong in defence so they'd probably have conceded more too.

[IBK]

There was nothing special in how Bayern performed over the 2 legs, they were just solid and looked after the ball a lot better than we did. We shit the bed in the first leg and it was quite obvious in the second half last night there was no belief that we could get a result. We won the ball back a lot in dangerous areas but once we needed to make decisions we started to dither and the forwards became static. Only Rice and Odegaard were trying to crank up the tempo, Saka, Martinelli and Havertz were hiding all game.

This was a doable task for us but we didn’t handle the occasion very well at all. You only had to look at their relief at the final whistle at getting through. When the draw was made we were considered favourites for this tie even in Germany.

I agree with both your posts mate - with one qualification. I also don't think Bayern did much that was special - although they do have a CL pedigree and experience that is an advantage at this level.

What they had, but we didn't/don't was game changer players who stepped up when needed. Our players wilted - particularly in the second half. Saka was anonymous, as was Havertz, Martinelli was ineffective; Odegard looked spent; Jesus and Trossard did the opposite of what they did when they came on in the home tie.

And this is what concerns me. This is the time of the season when legs are tired and this is bound to affect our collective cohesion. What we saw happen on Sunday and last night was the team revert to a robotic and predictable style of play that was far too ponderous and imprecise to create any real scoring opportunities after they had gone ahead. We needed someone to take responsibility and make something happen, but none of our vaunted players did. For me its not the result that is the issue, it's how flat and predictable we looked - how easy to defend against, and how too many players hid. As you say.

[Globalgunner]

Arteta has reached the limit of his talent for us. He bottled the end of last season, and the chant was. Give him another chance. He won't take us to the next level. 4 seasons should have made that plain as can be.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't get tit. This is BY FAR the best football Arsenal has been playing in a decade. What's with this anti-Arteta stuff? What is it we are expecting? Everyone accuses me of living in the past, wanting to see Bergkamp and Henry and Vieira stride out again. But I have never said that, I have always said I just want to see good football. And now we have a team that 50% of the time provides good football. That's better than 0%, which is what we had. On that basis, why wouldn't everyone want to see what he can do next?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Arteta has met my minimum objective of having us contending for the league by May 1st. If my opinion mattered to the high echelons of the club or indeed to anyone but myself this might be news. But yes I think we can say we’ve progressed or certainly haven’t gone backwards

[Marc Overmars]

Experience matters and I think the disappointment of last season has taught them some valuable lessons.

It’s hugely frustrating that a single defeat to Villa is likely to be the reason we don’t win the league but fuck it, no one can say we haven’t given it our all in this second part of the season considering at one point we looked like we wouldn’t even be in contention after that awful December.

[Letters]

The experience of last season has definitely helped and reinforcements like Rice have too.
If we do lose it then I guess we have to point to that West Ham / Fulham balls up.
But we can't really argue with the response to that and we've done what we can to push City much harder this year.

[dazthegooner]

Think we will win our remaining matches (another nervy win against Utd) but City will probably win there's as well :(

[HCZ_Reborn]

Think we will win our remaining matches (another nervy win against Utd) but City will probably win there's as well :(

If that’s what happens it’s disappointing but fuck it

[Mac76]

If we do lose it then I guess we have to point to that West Ham / Fulham balls up.


You could just as easily point to Zin's fuckup at home to Fulham which cost us two points and Jorg's fuckup v Spuds at our place which again cost us two points

I even think we should have beaten Citeh away but Trossard didn't make the most of his chance and also Rice had two corners in the second half which he completely wasted and given our prowess from set pieces that was significant

fine margins

[Letters]

You could just as easily point to Zin's fuckup at home to Fulham which cost us two points and Jorg's fuckup v Spuds at our place which again cost us two points

I even think we should have beaten Citeh away but Trossard didn't make the most of his chance and also Rice had two corners in the second half which he completely wasted and given our prowess from set pieces that was significant

fine margins

Yeah. I mean there's always games you're going to drop points in games which you should be winning. Even City do that sometimes!
But those 6 points feel particularly damaging.
Overall you end up where you deserve to. Doesn't seem like we'll be far away and you can't really argue with our response this calendar year.

[HCZ_Reborn]

For me what we should be aiming for is the bare minimum of winning two out of our last three (really all three) but the important thing is if City do win all their remaining games is that we do something we haven’t done previously and that is to win more than 26 games in a 38 game season.

The next target will be next season, which will be to win more than 15 home games in a season (previous title winners have won as many as 18 at home) and match our previous home number of away wins which was 14.


And no these are not minimum expectations these are goals. The other goals would be to get wins at City and Liverpool. The only two grounds where we haven’t won under Arteta.


Our current win percentage stands at 70% in the last two seasons under Arteta, that’s good but it probably needs to be better. It suggests that the goals we score are not evenly distributed enough throughout the season. This is borne out by the fact that we’ve scored the excellent total of 46 goals in the last 15 games, but especially away from home…we only managed to score more than once three times from our first ten away games.

[Globalgunner]

We must be stuck in some time loop that makes us revisit each season and not remember the last. Coming 2nd in the PL (maybe) is progress now? Dumped of of all 3 cups, not making any discernible imprint in Europe. This time last season I predicted we would be saying the same this end season as we are doing now. "Give him next season", which is what we said last season. Yes, and so we are. We are not an elite team and have no aspirations to ever becoming one it seems.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We must be stuck in some time loop that makes us revisit each season and not remember the last. Coming 2nd in the PL (maybe) is progress now? Dumped of of all 3 cups, not making any discernible imprint in Europe. This time last season I predicted we would be saying the same this end season as we are doing now. "Give him next season", which is what we said last season. Yes, and so we are. We are not an elite team and have no aspirations to ever becoming one it seems.

It’s about accepting material reality, to win the title is not in our gift. No one has given up, but despite a mini collapse in April the fact is we haven’t really bottled the league and certainly not in the way Liverpool have

[Letters]

We must be stuck in some time loop that makes us revisit each season and not remember the last. Coming 2nd in the PL (maybe) is progress now?
We are on track to get more points, have a significantly better defensive record and score more goals than last year.
Finishing 2nd isn't progress in itself, but that's not the only metric.
Not losing the big 6 pointers is progress.
Pushing City till till the last few games is progress.
Standing up in the run in rather than collapsing is progress.


Dumped of of all 3 cups, not making any discernible imprint in Europe.
We got to the Quarter Finals for the CL for the first time in 14 years?! :lol:


This time last season I predicted we would be saying the same this end season as we are doing now. "Give him next season", which is what we said last season. Yes, and so we are.
Well sure, there's been clear progress. Why would you sack a manager in that context?


We are not an elite team and have no aspirations to ever becoming one it seems.
Bullshit :good:

[Mac76]

We must be stuck in some time loop that makes us revisit each season and not remember the last. Coming 2nd in the PL (maybe) is progress now? Dumped of of all 3 cups, not making any discernible imprint in Europe. This time last season I predicted we would be saying the same this end season as we are doing now. "Give him next season", which is what we said last season. Yes, and so we are. We are not an elite team and have no aspirations to ever becoming one it seems.

Making the CL QFs is progress and making a more realistic title challenge also is progress.

Arteta and the team are learning, I think the Bayern defeat was self-inflicted and we nearly chucked away two points yesterday, we should do better but if everyone in that squad either keeps improving or is replaced with someone better then we can only get stronger

I was all for getting rid of Arteta last summer but given the disasteous Zin experiment appears to be near its end and he got rid of Xhaka, plus bought Havertz and turned him into a near goal-a-game striker (and yes I know he was supposed to be a new left 8) you've got to give him some credit

I'd give him another season but we need to win something next time around or we'll be cast as serial failures

[IBK]

Noone's saying that Arteta should be manager for life, or that he doesn't have his flaws. But in terms of sticking with him for the time being, its a no brainer.

First - are we progressing as a team under him? Undoubtedly. I'll accept that if we'd had another end of the season like last year this could be questioned, but we haven't. Our team has shown a lot more resiliance at the sharp end of the season whatever happens and our results against our direct competitors for the league, and our traditionally strongest local deby opponents has been better than anyone else's. Plus our stats in both attack and defence are the best in the league. If we get pipped to the title by a monster team that has won the past 3 and 5 out of the last 6 league titles and is regarded as the world's best then we still deserve to be regarded as an elite team.

Our first CL quarter final since 2010, and a narrow 1 goal defeat to bayern also clearly speaks to progress.

Second - will we progress further under Arteta? The signs are good. He is clearly learning and developing as a manager, and the speed at which our team is evolving past recent key players - eg Jesus; Zinchenko; Partey; Ramsdale is self-evident. His decision making re our latest player purchases , and ability to persuade our best players to re-sign for the club (along with Edu) has been excellent and our mostly young team hads not reached its ceiling.

Third - is there anyone else available who is better/likely to out perform Arteta at the present time? I would say no. This is of course partly because we are in the middle of his evolving project, but when you look at the names being mentioned for Liverpool; Manure - I don't think we can better our manager.

Obviously things eveolve and potentially can change, but I am optimistic going into next season, however this one now ends.

[Mac76]

I agree, I think the team is really bought into Arteta and if they can offload Zin plus a few others and then recuit well, we could have an even better season next year, but it does / should involve winning something

[IBK]

I agree, I think the team is really bought into Arteta and if they can offload Zin plus a few others and then recuit well, we could have an even better season next year, but it does / should involve winning something

Yes - its time for a trophy now :good:

[Marc Overmars]

He’s taken us to the cusp of glory but he does need to get over the line sooner rather than later. Chelsea and United won’t be in the gutter forever and before we know it the competition will ramp up again. We don’t want to be like Spurs who missed their window of opportunity to do something with Poch.

Then again I find it difficult to be too hard on him now given the strength of what we’re up against and also the fact no one other than Klopp has done much in recent years. I have no idea who could replace him so I’m happy for him to carry on while we’re seeing progress and there’s no doubt progress is what we’ve seen every year since that dismal 20/21 season.

It’s May and there’s a possibility of us winning the league, this seemed so far away a few years ago that it wasn’t even worth dreaming about.

[Niall_Quinn]

Noone's saying that Arteta should be manager for life, or that he doesn't have his flaws. But in terms of sticking with him for the time being, its a no brainer.

First - are we progressing as a team under him? Undoubtedly. I'll accept that if we'd had another end of the season like last year this could be questioned, but we haven't. Our team has shown a lot more resiliance at the sharp end of the season whatever happens and our results against our direct competitors for the league, and our traditionally strongest local deby opponents has been better than anyone else's. Plus our stats in both attack and defence are the best in the league. If we get pipped to the title by a monster team that has won the past 3 and 5 out of the last 6 league titles and is regarded as the world's best then we still deserve to be regarded as an elite team.

Our first CL quarter final since 2010, and a narrow 1 goal defeat to bayern also clearly speaks to progress.

Second - will we progress further under Arteta? The signs are good. He is clearly learning and developing as a manager, and the speed at which our team is evolving past recent key players - eg Jesus; Zinchenko; Partey; Ramsdale is self-evident. His decision making re our latest player purchases , and ability to persuade our best players to re-sign for the club (along with Edu) has been excellent and our mostly young team hads not reached its ceiling.

Third - is there anyone else available who is better/likely to out perform Arteta at the present time? I would say no. This is of course partly because we are in the middle of his evolving project, but when you look at the names being mentioned for Liverpool; Manure - I don't think we can better our manager.

Obviously things eveolve and potentially can change, but I am optimistic going into next season, however this one now ends.

You missed the most important development. We now sometimes play football that is entertaining. That hasn't happened in many years and is the ONLY reason this league should exist. After all, it is entirely funded by the fans, whether they pay for tickets or get robbed by Sky, TNT, and the other platforms you can't get but cost £2.99 in Norway.

Arteta has brought decent football. It's almost like a miracle.

[Niall_Quinn]

He’s taken us to the cusp of glory but he does need to get over the line sooner rather than later. Chelsea and United won’t be in the gutter forever and before we know it the competition will ramp up again. We don’t want to be like Spurs who missed their window of opportunity to do something with Poch.

Then again I find it difficult to be too hard on him now given the strength of what we’re up against and also the fact no one other than Klopp has done much in recent years. I have no idea who could replace him so I’m happy for him to carry on while we’re seeing progress and there’s no doubt progress is what we’ve seen every year since that dismal 20/21 season.

It’s May and there’s a possibility of us winning the league, this seemed so far away a few years ago that it wasn’t even worth dreaming about.

I view it more that he's dug us out of a sea of manure. We have been so incredibly shit for so long, and now we are only incredibly shit part of the time. That's the most progress we've had in 2 decades. Racking my brains to think who could achieve more. Pep? Look at his shit-kickers against Madrid. Couldn't buy the refs that day, could he? We actually won it this year, if not for VAR and the cheques from Arabia. Name somebody who could come in and actually push the most corrupt club in the history of football right up to the finish line.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think we have to start asking the question again about Arteta. His negative tactics cost us a win yesterday, we’ve spent a ridiculous amount on defenders yet we are shipping goals right, left and centre (conceded 9 in last 5). We were given an absolute gift with Rodri being out for the season yet we are determined to squander that opportunity in service to this inadequate man’s ego.

That Liverpool side is bang average, a few ageing stars like Van Dijk and Salah masks a litany of mediocrity. I don’t care what our defensive issues were, they were shit yesterday and we failed to punish them.

Arteta needs to go at the end of the season. We all know we aren’t winning the title, yes we know that referees are targeting us but we are just hiding behind that now

[KSE Comedy Club]

I think we have to start asking the question again about Arteta. His negative tactics cost us a win yesterday, we’ve spent a ridiculous amount on defenders yet we are shipping goals right, left and centre (conceded 9 in last 5). We were given an absolute gift with Rodri being out for the season yet we are determined to squander that opportunity in service to this inadequate man’s ego.

That Liverpool side is bang average, a few ageing stars like Van Dijk and Salah masks a litany of mediocrity. I don’t care what our defensive issues were, they were shit yesterday and we failed to punish them.

Arteta needs to go at the end of the season. We all know we aren’t winning the title, yes we know that referees are targeting us but we are just hiding behind that now

I'm honestly fuming this morning!

Arteta has destroyed the team this season, our whole gameplay has been turned into prime Joseball. In what world do we get a goal ahead and then try and shut up shop???
It's fucking inane!

Liverpool looked bang average today and we were on top for the last 25 mins of the 1st half - 2nd half we come out and sit in our own half and do nothing!
Salah allowed to run through 4 fucking players unhindered ffs!

We were playing like we were down to 10 men again from the whistle 2nd half. Disgraceful!

Then I'm hearing excuses how we don't have Odegaard so we a lacking creativity - and yet we kept attacking and keeping pressure on them enough to score 2 goals in the 1st half!
You can't have it both ways.

This stupid sitting on a goal and going all out defend gameplan is bullshit and fuck knows what Arteta is doing!?!

And I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in any of this blaming the ref bullshit - We should have finished them off long before the end of the game!

We ain't winning fuck all this season now, top four battle in May you wait and see if this shit continuous.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Though I think it's a bit to early in the season for us to start with the managerial threats, there are obviously serious questions we need to ask ourselves about where we are and where we see the current assembled squad going. But I think we need to deal with who we are first.

Besides Saka, Saliba and Martinelli, the rest of our team was recruited by Arteta.....which means this squad is entirely in his image. He has only won one competitive trophy, and most of that squad were largely AW's and Emery's men.

There is no shame in winning your first trophy with another coach's squad, I still believe a large part of AW's early success was largely due to the defence Graham left him with and he being smart enough not to tinker with it that much... however after our unbeaten season and they were all gone, he struggled and then had a long barren spell before winning a few more FA cups with a team entirely of his own image.

In short, the weak Arsenal , with babies and prima donnas running around that none of us were ever really proud of ...was part of AW's legacy.

I hate to quote Keane, I really hate to do this, but I think more and more we are seeing the kind of manager Arteta is based on the Pep vs Mourinho comparison he made

Arteta hates risks, prefers to suffocate games and in his words likes his team to be always ready to "suffer" (basically I believe he means enjoy the pressure of being only slightly ahead and keeping it that way).

I've got nothing against defensive football, always loved that fact about us. I mean we've had some of the best and meanest defenders ever and we've largely appreciated them. It is our identity.

But like our great manager once said, once you are use to having caviar it's difficult to go back to sausages!

We all want to win trophies but TBH I am not sure I'd appreciate it that much under a Mourinho kind of way. We won and lost trophies under Graham, we won and lost them under AW....we all know what we actually enjoyed.

If there are any higher ups that understand the current fanbase of the club they need to talk to their Rookie manager...all this negative football is really really not what we are about anymore....and more importantly, its not even winning shit!

[Letters]

Sausages > Caviar, tbh.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The overall squad is not one I have issues with, although I think its bottom heavy with too many defensive minded players and not enough attack minded ones

I still think we miss that Vieira like player who can link defence and attack but I think that player doesn’t really exist anymore, I think again it’s more the way we set up…the inverted full back system to strangle the life out of games is for me unnecessary.

What we need is additions up front to make us more efficient. The main problem especially at home is having to over commit and getting caught on the break (50% of the goals we’ve conceded at home in the league this season have come that way)

This is for me partly because we haven’t got a player who is good enough to put away chances, and we aren’t playing in a way that stretches the defence of the opposition. I think the players we have available are good enough to do the latter if we employ them that way, whilst I did not think signing a left back a priority I think Calafiori is a good player, he is good at interceptions and he’s got decent pace to bomb down the left and dovetail with Martinelli. Whilst not as quick, White has a good understanding with Saka and is a good crosser of the ball.


If we play Partey in a more advanced position rather than Rice we create space through the middle as well. Yes like any team we suffer when our best players are injured, but we need Captain Black to stop putting square pegs in round holes


I think overall the squad we have today is far far better than the one Arteta inherited, but it bloody well should be with the money we’ve spent. What we need now is a clinical finisher and I think this team would be able to both defend a lead and play in a way that we could tear a team to shreds on the counter, if Arteta actually set us up that way

[IBK]

I've been so up and down on where we are at present. Part of the problem is that to compete with Citeh we have to be almost perfect - and we have not been.

Also, after an outstanding second half of last season, we have (I think) fallen short of our points total at this stage last time round (can't be bothered to look, but by 2/3 points?).

But Bournemouth and possibly Brighton aside I am not sure that we have massively underperformed. The problem is that we are viewing our team's performances via the prism of no room for error.

I think that we have to see Sunday as a decent enough result. We can say all we like that Liverpool weren't that great. But to get a draw after ending up with a back four of Partey; White, Kiwor and MLS against the form team in the league - carrying huge momentum into this game - is not a bad result. This was a must not lose and we did not lose.

I have been critical of our threat going forwards, but the first half against Liverpool was very good in this regard. I am frustrated by Arteta's defensive mindset, but can't really criticise him for this when faced with what happened during the game. I think the manager should be judged when his key players are back, and the system can therefore mature...the problem is that it might be too late for the league by then!

Looking back on the season so far, I think I am more frustrated with our self inflicted wounds (red cards) than the manager's tactics.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hmmm I disagree about a couple of things

Sunday…Liverpool were bang average, the players missing in defence was not the reason we only got a draw it was the negative mindset. We should have put them to the sword

As for the to beat City you have to be perfect mantra, not buying that either. The difference in City between having Rodri fit and not being fit was so clear to see in our game against them. When Rodri went off injured, it wasn’t just scoring two goals we controlled the game. Before that we could barely get a look in.

He literally makes that much difference to City, since they played us…they drew with Newcastle and have scraped wins against sides that they should be beating easily. I think the advantage they have over us is virtually wiped out with him out for the season

[Mac76]

I've been so up and down on where we are at present. Part of the problem is that to compete with Citeh we have to be almost perfect - and we have not been.

Also, after an outstanding second half of last season, we have (I think) fallen short of our points total at this stage last time round (can't be bothered to look, but by 2/3 points?).

But Bournemouth and possibly Brighton aside I am not sure that we have massively underperformed. The problem is that we are viewing our team's performances via the prism of no room for error.

I think that we have to see Sunday as a decent enough result. We can say all we like that Liverpool weren't that great. But to get a draw after ending up with a back four of Partey; White, Kiwor and MLS against the form team in the league - carrying huge momentum into this game - is not a bad result. This was a must not lose and we did not lose.

I have been critical of our threat going forwards, but the first half against Liverpool was very good in this regard. I am frustrated by Arteta's defensive mindset, but can't really criticise him for this when faced with what happened during the game. I think the manager should be judged when his key players are back, and the system can therefore mature...the problem is that it might be too late for the league by then!

Looking back on the season so far, I think I am more frustrated with our self inflicted wounds (red cards) than the manager's tactics.

I'm generally thinking similarly, although I don't know how you can say our reds are self-inflicted when no other team's players are being booked for kicking the ball away - also with the Saliba one players have just been given yellows in similar incidents in just the last two weeks, plus when you look at the rule the original yellow-card decision by the ref could have been allowed to stand legitimately

[IBK]

Hmmm I disagree about a couple of things

Sunday…Liverpool were bang average, the players missing in defence was not the reason we only got a draw it was the negative mindset. We should have put them to the sword

As for the to beat City you have to be perfect mantra, not buying that either. The difference in City between having Rodri fit and not being fit was so clear to see in our game against them. When Rodri went off injured, it wasn’t just scoring two goals we controlled the game. Before that we could barely get a look in.

He literally makes that much difference to City, since they played us…they drew with Newcastle and have scraped wins against sides that they should be beating easily. I think the advantage they have over us is virtually wiped out with him out for the season

Don't get me wrong - I am not necessarily criticising our performances in these games (Bournemouth aside) - but the table doesn't lie, and while Rhodri is a big loss for Citeh we have failed to take advantage of this so far. You say that we don't have to be near perfect to beat Citeh to the title - yet we would have needed to be pretty much perfect so far this season to be sitting above them.

Whether our competitors are 'average' or 'scaping wins' is irrelevant unless we are benefitting from this.

To respond to Mac - I am as frustrated by the refereeing decisions that have gone against us as anyone, but there is nothing to be gained from howling at injustice. The simple fact is that with all of our reds we gave the officials an opportunity to punish us...and in each case this could have easily been avoided. So we circle back round to the first issue - the need to be near perfect. And this includes not giving PGMOL the opportunity to f*ck us.

Like I said, I do think we will be a force to be reckoned with when we get our key players back and this system clicks. Whether Liverpool have what it takes or Citeh stumble going forwards, we have left ourselves with very little margin of error already.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The main reason for the points gap is that we’ve played far harder games by the next international break our first six away games will have been Villa, Spurs, City, Bournemouth, Newcastle and Chelsea.

The irony is it’s entirely possible we go unbeaten against Newcastle and Chelsea and that on paper our easiest game is the one we lost.


Liverpool and City’s toughest game has been against us…both were lucky to avoid defeat. At this point the gap is less meaningful because they both have to play far tougher games and I’m far from convinced either of them are going to get through them unscathed

In terms of results, Bournemouth and Liverpool were disappointing…but the first game was marred by having to play most of the game with ten men and it’s just inevitable that this will result in defeat at some point. The only game where I’m really disappointed with both the result and the performance was Liverpool on Sunday. I think by far that’s been the most disheartening result of the season, we had a chance to lay a marker down and send them back to Anfield with a bloody nose and we played it safe

[Chippy]

Any updates on this? :whistle:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think the only way he gets sacked is if we tumble out of the top four unfortunately

I think what is frustrating about him is that we know we are capable of excellent results under him (though have to say he’s never been that impressive coaching us in Europe). But we are a victim of his stubbornness, today was so predictable. The rule of thumb is if we go ahead unless there’s something badly wrong we keep the lead, and if we go behind away from home especially it’s good night Vienna because we don’t either have the personnel or play in the way to break down a side that’s determined to hold onto what they have.

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah he’s not going anywhere unless there’s a United style downturn. The hierarchy have bet the house on him and I doubt they will rip it all up considering how long it took to build.

We’re undoubtedly in a bit of a mess though and a long way off the standards we’ve set over the past 2 years. First real test now for Arteta in a long time in dealing with adversity.

[Niall_Quinn]

There have been moments when Arteta has delivered everything the fans have been asking for. A bigger, more aggressive squad. More direct play. An actual defence. Attention to the details like set pieces and throw-ins. Square pegs in square holes. And it has been fun to watch. But it's intermittent at best. He's too conservative and he needs to loosen up and let the team breathe a bit. He's too afraid to lose and not hungry enough to win. That needs to flip. I don't care if we lose (as in, sack the manager), I only care of we lose because we didn't turn up.

[Chippy]

Yeah he’s not going anywhere unless there’s a United style downturn. The hierarchy have bet the house on him and I doubt they will rip it all up considering how long it took to build.

We’re undoubtedly in a bit of a mess though and a long way off the standards we’ve set over the past 2 years. First real test now for Arteta in a long time in dealing with adversity.
It's not just the last few games. Even when we win the performance has been a bit shit. Rookie out!

[Mac76]

I keep saying they should have had an older figure at his shoulder just to steer him in the right direction and be old and experienced enough to be fearless about it - he's got no-one there to challenge him from a knowledgeable and experienced perspective.

[Letters]

Any updates on this? :whistle:

:lol:

I am famously patient with managers but he’s spent a lot of money and that did make us genuine contenders last season. Were we not up against the juggernaut - and, let’s face it, the cheats - of City we’d have walked the title. We were only one point down on The Invincibles, we were standing up in the big games and winning the pressure games. Most importantly, Arteta restored the fractured relationship between the club and the fans.

But we’ve regressed since last season. The obvious area we needed to improve was the attack and we didn’t. The defence which saw us through a lot of games last season is now looking shaky. I don’t think Arteta is going to take us any further. I have no beef with the guy, he’s done a lot of good work, but if we are ever going to take that final step and win the league then it won’t be with him.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

There have been moments when Arteta has delivered everything the fans have been asking for. A bigger, more aggressive squad. More direct play. An actual defence. Attention to the details like set pieces and throw-ins. Square pegs in square holes. And it has been fun to watch. But it's intermittent at best. He's too conservative and he needs to loosen up and let the team breathe a bit. He's too afraid to lose and not hungry enough to win. That needs to flip. I don't care if we lose (as in, sack the manager), I only care of we lose because we didn't turn up.

:gp:

This (the whole post) is just perfect. I couldn't have said it any better.

[Chippy]

:lol:

I am famously patient with managers but he’s spent a lot of money and that did make us genuine contenders last season. Were we not up against the juggernaut - and, let’s face it, the cheats - of City we’d have walked the title. We were only one point down on The Invincibles, we were standing up in the big games and winning the pressure games. Most importantly, Arteta restored the fractured relationship between the club and the fans.

But we’ve regressed since last season. The obvious area we needed to improve was the attack and we didn’t. The defence which saw us through a lot of games last season is now looking shaky. I don’t think Arteta is going to take us any further. I have no beef with the guy, he’s done a lot of good work, but if we are ever going to take that final step and win the league then it won’t be with him.

Sadly, you are correct, we will never win the league with Arteta at the helm.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I keep saying they should have had an older figure at his shoulder just to steer him in the right direction and be old and experienced enough to be fearless about it - he's got no-one there to challenge him from a knowledgeable and experienced perspective.

This will be Ancelotti's final season in Madrid....he's always wanted this job and famously waited after he was sacked at Chelsea to see if he would get it.

He's the last of the old dons....and he does happen to know how to get the best from younger players.

We really need to consider if its worth sticking with this kind machine-like football, where every cog needs to be perfect.

We use to lose and it would be fun to watch (at least for a neutral), hell now even watching us grind out our usual 1-0 wins isn't fun, its all just soul sapping.

[Mac76]

To respond to Mac - I am as frustrated by the refereeing decisions that have gone against us as anyone, but there is nothing to be gained from howling at injustice. The simple fact is that with all of our reds we gave the officials an opportunity to punish us...and in each case this could have easily been avoided. So we circle back round to the first issue - the need to be near perfect. And this includes not giving PGMOL the opportunity to f*ck us.



I wasn't howling at anything, just correcting your statement that the reds were our fault - when our players are sent off for things thst no others are sent off for, that's outside our control and has little or nothing to do with our own team discipline

[Niall_Quinn]

A rowing crew I was following this week in a collegiate regatta progressed through the round to the semis against opposition that were a good 10s faster over 2K. The former had been improving each round, starting with a 7:38 and whittling it down to 7:20 by semi-final day. But the captain got the date wrong and they paddled up and empty river, the actual race was the Friday and there they were on the Thursday, having psyched up for their toughest race of the season. So they put in some splits anyway, just because they were there, and ended up on 7:10 pace which would have seen them at least give a good run against the favourites. Come the Friday, they posted their worst time of the regatta. They already peaked by the time they hit the water. It's a sport of very fine margins where timing, in every sense, is crucial.

Don't underestimate the disruption caused by the blatant cheating during a key period when we could have pushed on but instead found ourselves falling behind. The team should be big enough to put that behind them and go again and build the momentum again, but that's not how it always works out when fine margins are in play. It's not an excuse, there are plenty of other things that have contributed to the poor results, but don't discount the blatant cheating of the match officials and the resulting bullshit pushed out by the talking heads to cover for the blatant cheating.

I saw somebody on here say we can't get hung up on such things. True, we can't let it get the better of us. But neither should we ignore it. It should continue to be called out for the disruption it is, just as any injury is a disruption. People say, poor gypo, no Rodri. What's the difference between that handicap and the points that were stolen from us by corrupt officials?

[IBK]

I wasn't howling at anything, just correcting your statement that the reds were our fault - when our players are sent off for things thst no others are sent off for, that's outside our control and has little or nothing to do with our own team discipline

Should have made ir clear mate that that comment wasn't directed at you - more generically that while many of us feel aggrieved at our treatment from the match officials ultimately it won't make any difference...

[IBK]

There have been moments when Arteta has delivered everything the fans have been asking for. A bigger, more aggressive squad. More direct play. An actual defence. Attention to the details like set pieces and throw-ins. Square pegs in square holes. And it has been fun to watch. But it's intermittent at best. He's too conservative and he needs to loosen up and let the team breathe a bit. He's too afraid to lose and not hungry enough to win. That needs to flip. I don't care if we lose (as in, sack the manager), I only care of we lose because we didn't turn up.

:gp: consise summary of where we are

[Chippy]

The annoying thing is that the Spuds are now only a couple of points behind us and looked bloody good against Villa today. It's all going tits up at the moment.

[IBK]

Thinking about our last few games - and some of our other disappointing results this season, I'm starting to think that an issue is a lack of self-belief. We have seen the manager and his team retreat into their shells when it really counts. We have seen uncharateristic errors at the back, and a lack of composure in front of goal. And we have seen an element of panic when key players go missing...the performance after Big Gabi went off against Liverpool is a good example of this. So is the general reluctance to pass to Nwaneri on Saturday, and our MF in particular not being able to keep the ball/advance properly when chasing a goal.

I am wondering whether our failure to get across the line for the league last season has affected the team's confidence and automatisms? We have debated the fact that Odegard's absense has made us into a 'defend first' outfit that relies on fine margins to prevail when needed. But while any team would miss a key player, wannabe league champions should, and need to find other ways to impose themselves on games. We have done so in fits and starts this season, but I am seeing a team that does not really believe that they can do it, and a manager who is suddenly looking bereft of a real plan. It's fine to look at circumstances and decisions that have gone against us, but Arsenal to me look like a team that is wilting rather than trying to take the game to the opposition, and both Bournemouth and Newcastle played like teams who felt they had little to fear as long as they executed their own game plan.

Arsenal have at times looked brittle throughout Arteta's tenure - and it looks ATM like our players lack the confidence needed to do what is needed.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I think you are on to something.

It clearly does seem like the players are all playing with more caution than they did last season especially when they get to the final third. I also think maybe our early success with set pieces and the typical Arteta goals have them thinking that's the only way they can score, especially when they are in an adverse situation.

In the Newcastle game, it was annoying seeing them repeatedly go for crosses when it was clear Pope and their defence had sussed us out.

Yeah, you might say the best chance to equalise came from a cross, but that's the 100th time we had tried. BTW, I think the best chance to equalise was when Saka was finally free thanks to a rare Newcastle lapse, and Trossard missed the most basic of passes.

Whatever it is our players need 5o stop playing with chains on and being robotic.

Saka doesn't have this problem as he's rightly self-confident and he can be the difference. Trossard for some reason has started second guessing himself. Jesus never plays with chains, and it could be argued he has way too much faith in his ability with the kind of subpar end product he delivers.

The only other person who seems not to be affected by this malaise is Nwaneri...and that's because he's fresh, young and has so much to look ahead to. And this is my main gripe with Arteta for the last month. With Odegaard's unforeseen absence, he had the best excuse in the world to properly blood the youngster, and if it did not work out, the poor boy wouldn't have felt bad as he would have known he was only playing because Odegaard was absent. This is something AW would have never missed a chance to do.

This is one of the reasons we must insist that our next coach has bags of experience to fall back on.

[Mac76]

@IBK I think that the reasons you give, along with the refs being so against us, has knocked the wind out of the teams' sails a bit

This is where Arteta's relentless caution and stubbornness can be a hindrance not a help - I think if Nwaneri had been given more chances generally and been started against Newcastle it might have been different - by the time he came on the pattern was set - I think he wasn't quite in phase with everyone which is why he didn't receive the ball more often

I'm worried that Edu going will only make things worse in terms of giving Arteta too much power at the club - we will be in a Wenger situation again if we're not too careful

As fans we need to know there's enough objectivity and experience in other positions at the club to be able to know when Arteta needs to be asked to go or at very least heavily questioned and told to seek advice

[IBK]

I think you are on to something.

It clearly does seem like the players are all playing with more caution than they did last season especially when they get to the final third. I also think maybe our early success with set pieces and the typical Arteta goals have them thinking that's the only way they can score, especially when they are in an adverse situation.

In the Newcastle game, it was annoying seeing them repeatedly go for crosses when it was clear Pope and their defence had sussed us out.

Yeah, you might say the best chance to equalise came from a cross, but that's the 100th time we had tried. BTW, I think the best chance to equalise was when Saka was finally free thanks to a rare Newcastle lapse, and Trossard missed the most basic of passes.

Whatever it is our players need 5o stop playing with chains on and being robotic.

Saka doesn't have this problem as he's rightly self-confident and he can be the difference. Trossard for some reason has started second guessing himself. Jesus never plays with chains, and it could be argued he has way too much faith in his ability with the kind of subpar end product he delivers.

The only other person who seems not to be affected by this malaise is Nwaneri...and that's because he's fresh, young and has so much to look ahead to. And this is my main gripe with Arteta for the last month. With Odegaard's unforeseen absence, he had the best excuse in the world to properly blood the youngster, and if it did not work out, the poor boy wouldn't have felt bad as he would have known he was only playing because Odegaard was absent. This is something AW would have never missed a chance to do.

This is one of the reasons we must insist that our next coach has bags of experience to fall back on.

A good point regarding the robotic nature of our play. Its OK when a very structured method of approaching games yields results. However when it doesn't it becomes very easy to doubt what you are doing. This lack of conviction and enterprise is quite apparent in this current Arsenal team - which is why we pin our hopes on a 17 year old who seems to break the mould, and may explain why the other players seemed to be on a different wavelength. We do seem to be wound too tight ATM.

[IBK]

@IBK I think that the reasons you give, along with the refs being so against us, has knocked the wind out of the teams' sails a bit

This is where Arteta's relentless caution and stubbornness can be a hindrance not a help - I think if Nwaneri had been given more chances generally and been started against Newcastle it might have been different - by the time he came on the pattern was set - I think he wasn't quite in phase with everyone which is why he didn't receive the ball more often

I'm worried that Edu going will only make things worse in terms of giving Arteta too much power at the club - we will be in a Wenger situation again if we're not too careful

As fans we need to know there's enough objectivity and experience in other positions at the club to be able to know when Arteta needs to be asked to go or at very least heavily questioned and told to seek advice

Yes - this is one of my concerns - that it ends up placing too much power/responsibility in Arteta's hands, and removes from the structure someone who can question the manager's decisions.

[Letters]

I saw somebody on here say we can't get hung up on such things. True, we can't let it get the better of us. But neither should we ignore it. It should continue to be called out for the disruption it is, just as any injury is a disruption. People say, poor gypo, no Rodri. What's the difference between that handicap and the points that were stolen from us by corrupt officials?
I agree with a lot of your post and I definitely feel we've been robbed in a couple of games this season.
But not Bournemouth - I think that was a fair enough sending off, I think we'd have been screaming for a red had that foul happened against us.
Not Liverpool - I didn't particularly think it was a foul for that late chance, but we had enough dominance to kill off that game, and we didn't. That's on us.
Not Newcastle, that one was all us.

Refs have cost us points this season, but we've done it to ourselves too. And the reason for that is we didn't address the clear areas of weakness in the summer. We all knew what we needed to do and we didn't do it. It's the 3rd season in a row we haven't had a striker worthy of the name. We mostly got away with it last year, we're not this season so far.

[IBK]

I heard an excellent comment on a podcast recently. This was that where we might see a lack of intensity in the press, the real explanation might be that where teams set up in a low block and invite us to come onto them there is simply no space for players to generate forward momentum, and of course little space for supporting players to exploit. The converse is true for the defending team. It is relatively easy for them to intercept passing in such a congested space. What we are seeing with many teams we face is that they are not just defending, they are looking to launch counter attacks and have the quick players to do so. We end up so high up the pitch that the opposition often has a lot of open space behind us to exploit, and our defenders are left running back towards their own goal and out of shape, with no MF to cover them.

This is less of a problem for us when Odegard plays, because he is able to operate in absurdly small pockets of space, and can deal with 2 or 3 players being drawn to him. However, Havertz even when dropping deep is not that kind of player, and certainly Rice in an advanced role cannot do so. Our response has been to play everything down the wings, but Saka usually has 2 or 3 players on him; Martinelli has noone inside him to interchange with (we haven't solved the problems on our LHS generally), and there is no movement through the middle because our MF is playing in fear of a turnover. Hence the U-shaped passing of doom.

Arteta's lack of focus on playmakers has left us stodgy and predictable - particularly when we go a goal down and the other side can then sit in - like Newcastle did.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I heard an excellent comment on a podcast recently. This was that where we might see a lack of intensity in the press, the real explanation might be that where teams set up in a low block and invite us to come onto them there is simply no space for players to generate forward momentum, and of course little space for supporting players to exploit. The converse is true for the defending team. It is relatively easy for them to intercept passing in such a congested space. What we are seeing with many teams we face is that they are not just defending, they are looking to launch counter attacks and have the quick players to do so. We end up so high up the pitch that the opposition often has a lot of open space behind us to exploit, and our defenders are left running back towards their own goal and out of shape, with no MF to cover them.

This is less of a problem for us when Odegard plays, because he is able to operate in absurdly small pockets of space, and can deal with 2 or 3 players being drawn to him. However, Havertz even when dropping deep is not that kind of player, and certainly Rice in an advanced role cannot do so. Our response has been to play everything down the wings, but Saka usually has 2 or 3 players on him; Martinelli has noone inside him to interchange with (we haven't solved the problems on our LHS generally), and there is no movement through the middle because our MF is playing in fear of a turnover. Hence the U-shaped passing of doom.

Arteta's lack of focus on playmakers has left us stodgy and predictable - particularly when we go a goal down and the other side can then sit in - like Newcastle did.

This is virtually a truism. It’s pretty much objective fact that’s what’s been happening especially at home.

It’s why we keep far fewer clean sheets at home than we do away from home.

I don’t think it’s just a lack of playmakers either, even when we have Odegaard we often need to get him to drop deep to receive the ball. The main problem for me is this ridiculous inverted full back system. We rarely see any overlap on the left hand side and that’s why we have the focal point for our attacks all on the right and defenders double or treble up on Saka.


NQ said it the other day that Arteta is more worried about losing than winning, although ironically our defeats under him are greatly in excess of the games we’ve drawn.


I’m all for having this mean machine defence that can’t be beaten, but ultimately even the best defenders in the world are going to be stretched if you give the opposition space to break in midfield (we aren’t good at dealing with transition play)

Maybe Arteta has this long term plan to shape the attack next, but it’s certainly been a second or third order consideration for him until now

[IBK]

This is virtually a truism. It’s pretty much objective fact that’s what’s been happening especially at home.

It’s why we keep far fewer clean sheets at home than we do away from home.

I don’t think it’s just a lack of playmakers either, even when we have Odegaard we often need to get him to drop deep to receive the ball. The main problem for me is this ridiculous inverted full back system. We rarely see any overlap on the left hand side and that’s why we have the focal point for our attacks all on the right and defenders double or treble up on Saka.


NQ said it the other day that Arteta is more worried about losing than winning, although ironically our defeats under him are greatly in excess of the games we’ve drawn.


I’m all for having this mean machine defence that can’t be beaten, but ultimately even the best defenders in the world are going to be stretched if you give the opposition space to break in midfield (we aren’t good at dealing with transition play)

Maybe Arteta has this long term plan to shape the attack next, but it’s certainly been a second or third order consideration for him until now

The other irony was that we signed Raya in large part for his distribution. I cannot help but feel that this was to give us another option by going long so as to stretch play going forwards. But we don't even seem to be able to spring properly when the other side is on us...

[HCZ_Reborn]

The other irony was that we signed Raya in large part for his distribution. I cannot help but feel that this was to give us another option by going long so as to stretch play going forwards. But we don't even seem to be able to spring properly when the other side is on us...

This was evident against Aston Villa, you had Rogers and Watkins pressing us high which meant that neither Rice or Partey felt comfortable enough on the ball to bring it forward. Of course it didn’t help that Timber was playing left full back and because of the inverted silly nonsense was also playing partly in midfield. What I will say is that I think from what I saw against Southampton in the second half, is that one player who is good at springing an attack is Ricardo Calafiori, he’s far more comfortable on the ball than anyone else we play at left back, I think he does gel well with Martinelli as well.
What’s got to stop happening is the failed experiment of Rice at 8, it’s so silly…Rice is brilliant at six he can read danger like Peter Parker and he’s excellent at putting out fires…why are we trying to get him to be something he isn’t.

[Mac76]

It's the 3rd season in a row we haven't had a striker worthy of the name. We mostly got away with it last year, we're not this season so far.

I actually think Havertz is 90% that guy but he's being played in the Odegaard slot atm and it's masively reduced our effectiveness - there was a really good example of Saka putting a in a good cross v Newcastle and no-one there, not even Trossard, as both he and Havertz are playing hybrid forward/midfielder roles

eitherh way Havertz on his own isn't enough and we should have recuited more in that area.

I want to give Sterling time but he's just a squad player and not the answer to the bigger questions

Overall everything people say here about our approach being too defensive is right - it's at least four things:

- putting Havertz in midfield instead of keeping him at 9...
- ... which is because he won't start Nwaneri in the PL despite him looking like he can handle it
- being too defensive when with 10 men - I believe we could have beaten Brighton and/or got a point against Bournemouth with a more positive approach - it's what Pep would have done
- spending too much time on recruiting for the defensive positions and not enough up top - we should have paid whatever it took to get Seskop IMO

And my fear is that if they give Arteta even more control with Edu's departure it will only get worse

[Mac76]

Oh and PLEASE can someone change the thread title to 'By when will Arteta be sacked?' :)

[Globalgunner]

Arsenal have gone down another Wenger endless promise Rabbit hole. He will spend a decade here at least before we realise there is no "there, there".

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh and PLEASE can someone change the thread title to 'By when will Arteta be sacked?' :)


https://youtu.be/Q4XCZfkGF8k?si=wXIiisMKF5HwhKby

[Mac76]

Arsenal have gone down another Wenger endless promise Rabbit hole. He will spend a decade here at least before we realise there is no "there, there".

That's my concern too, we could be in for some very painful years in which one by one we lose some fantastic once-in-a-lifetime players and it all turns to shite

Edu's departure is the canary in the coalmine

[IBK]

That's my concern too, we could be in for some very painful years in which one by one we lose some fantastic once-in-a-lifetime players and it all turns to shite

Edu's departure is the canary in the coalmine

That's my concern too. It is maybe understandable that having fought so hard and for so long for the league, finished second 2 seasons in a row and not having had the reinforcements it needs over last Summer, our team is looking flat this season.

But there is something not quite right about us this season so far. Whether or not Edu's shock departure reflects this we don't know, but it seems a strange decision to leave before the plan we were all told is in place reaches fruition.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's my concern too, we could be in for some very painful years in which one by one we lose some fantastic once-in-a-lifetime players and it all turns to shite

Edu's departure is the canary in the coalmine

Not sure, not saying you’re wrong but also far from convinced you’re right

KSE was quite ruthless when it came to getting rid of Emery and Arteta has not got the goodwill stored that Wenger had with the three titles and countless seasons in the champions league

There are definite causes for concern. But still wouldn’t be quick to go into panic mode.

What I’m guessing happened with Edu is that he was headhunted by Evangelos Marinakis, he was interested in the offer but was above board and went to Arsenal to see if they would offer him the amount that might keep him from taking the offer, they didn’t and so he took the job. The media love to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I’ve seen no indication thus far that it was an acrimonious split, but who knows maybe in the next few weeks we will discover that it was all raised voices, fingers pointed etc

But too soon to say

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's my concern too. It is maybe understandable that having fought so hard and for so long for the league, finished second 2 seasons in a row and not having had the reinforcements it needs over last Summer, our team is looking flat this season.

But there is something not quite right about us this season so far. Whether or not Edu's shock departure reflects this we don't know, but it seems a strange decision to leave before the plan we were all told is in place reaches fruition.

Do you not think that a lot of this trust the process stuff is largely PR to keep the fans onside. Purely speculative on my part but you can see in my reply to Mac, what I think went down. Now if I’m right (and by no means am I even suggesting I am, I’m merely spitballing) but if I’m right it would suggest that maybe the club felt that Edu wasn’t someone who they felt needed to be kept on at all cost.

[Mac76]

Not sure, not saying you’re wrong but also far from convinced you’re right

KSE was quite ruthless when it came to getting rid of Emery and Arteta has not got the goodwill stored that Wenger had with the three titles and countless seasons in the champions league

There are definite causes for concern. But still wouldn’t be quick to go into panic mode.

What I’m guessing happened with Edu is that he was headhunted by Evangelos Marinakis, he was interested in the offer but was above board and went to Arsenal to see if they would offer him the amount that might keep him from taking the offer, they didn’t and so he took the job. The media love to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I’ve seen no indication thus far that it was an acrimonious split, but who knows maybe in the next few weeks we will discover that it was all raised voices, fingers pointed etc

But too soon to say

You saw this i posted the other day right?

https://www.teamtalk.com/arsenal/true-reasons-behind-edu-exit-arsenal-revealed-bombshell-nottingham-forest-links-are-clarified

"We have been informed that the reason for his departure is due to ‘internal disagreements over the line to follow for the future of Arsenal, which arose amid a long-term strategic review of the club.’

Sources say that Edu holds ‘opposing positions to other leading figures at Arsenal about the next steps for the development of Arsenal’ and in order not to ruin his ‘fantastic’ relationship with the club, decided to leave."

OK so we don't know how much Arteta was personally responsible for the differences of opinion but it certainly wouldn't be a surprise

[Globalgunner]

I heard he got a better job offer, Not just boss at 1 club but boss of a sports franchise. More money, more power

[HCZ_Reborn]

You saw this i posted the other day right?

https://www.teamtalk.com/arsenal/true-reasons-behind-edu-exit-arsenal-revealed-bombshell-nottingham-forest-links-are-clarified

"We have been informed that the reason for his departure is due to ‘internal disagreements over the line to follow for the future of Arsenal, which arose amid a long-term strategic review of the club.’

Sources say that Edu holds ‘opposing positions to other leading figures at Arsenal about the next steps for the development of Arsenal’ and in order not to ruin his ‘fantastic’ relationship with the club, decided to leave."

OK so we don't know how much Arteta was personally responsible for the differences of opinion but it certainly wouldn't be a surprise

Yes but it was Talksport so I immediately disregarded it

I should perhaps have been clear and said I hadn’t seen anything from anywhere reputable

By the way you know who Talksport are owned by don’t you?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I heard he got a better job offer, Not just boss at 1 club but boss of a sports franchise. More money, more power

He did

[Mac76]

Yes but it was Talksport so I immediately disregarded it

I should perhaps have been clear and said I hadn’t seen anything from anywhere reputable

By the way you know who Talksport are owned by don’t you?

you were so desperate to get one over me you didn't read it properly - it says 'Teamtalk' :haha:

HCZ :getcoat:

:pal:

[Niall_Quinn]

you were so desperate to get one over me you didn't read it properly - it says 'Teamtalk' :haha:

HCZ :getcoat:

:pal:

He literally says to me, "Didn't read yur post - but here's why you are wrong!"

[HCZ_Reborn]

you were so desperate to get one over me you didn't read it properly - it says 'Teamtalk' :haha:

HCZ :getcoat:

:pal:

Someone’s got a persecution complex :lol:, but I won’t lie I was kind of hoping you hadn’t done your homework and linked to a media source from a company owned by Murdoch. But I’ll admit that’s more on me because I can’t imagine why anyone would care so much

Never even heard of Teamtalk although I edited my own message because predictive text had strangely changed it to Teamtalk and I changed it back to Talksport :lol: @ me

[HCZ_Reborn]

He literally says to me, "Didn't read yur post - but here's why you are wrong!"

Another person with a persecution complex

No I say with you, I’m not reading your posts because they are long, boring and they give me synesthesia as I can smell and even taste the stale sweat of your feverish paranoia on most of them

At least Mac has the decency to be wrong with brevity most of the time

[Chippy]

Ok, this post is very old now but when are we going to actually sack the rookie? Yet another piss poor performance today and apparently we don't need a striker? All the money he has spent and we can't beat the whipping boys of the Premier league. Arteta out..... asap.

[Mac76]

More to the point, when will the thread title be changed to 'By when will Arteta be sacked?'

I continue to live in hope...

[HCZ_Reborn]

More to the point, when will the thread title be changed to 'By when will Arteta be sacked?'

I continue to live in hope...

Or simply “When will Arteta be sacked?”

[HCZ_Reborn]

This really is the pits for me. The green light was there to go when Rodri got injured, this should have been our season. And even without the striker we need I think we had enough in the squad. The only person holding us back is the same person that’s been holding us back for years. Today for example, the way Everton set up wasn’t a surprise it’s the exact way they’ve set up the last two times they’ve been to the Emirates under throat cancer boy. Yet we play the same system, the same tactics…think we might be able to nick a goal from a set piece or a bit of individual brilliance by Saka.


Because ultimately for this man even if you’re playing Everton the goal getting is an afterthought, something we will manage at some point.

At half time I wasn’t that bothered, I thought well plenty of games are 0-0 at half time for us. What enraged me, were the substitutions. Not the players being brought on, Nwaneri and Trossard of course you want to bring them on when chasing a game (Jesus not so much) it was the fact that they were like for like substitutions. Didn’t even consider the idea of adding an extra man in attack in a game where we had 75% of the ball. You get the ball moving more quickly you load the box with players so they’ve got an extra man to mark, you make life more difficult for them.

Would it definitely have got us three points? No but if you don’t do that….in my view you haven’t even tried to win the game

[Letters]

After 16 games:

2022: 43 points
2023: 39 points
2024: 30 points

Sigh.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Compared to last season (which was also pretty poor in the first half)

We have the same amount of clean sheets and the same amount of goals conceded

We’ve only scored four fewer (and the difference is that we’ve scored two pels this season, compared to six then)

As I said a few weeks ago, we were discussing around this time how we controlled games but weren’t creating enough chances, the build up play was too slow. The difference is we were getting a lot of last minute goals that we aren’t getting this time around

[Letters]

It's just insane that we keep ON wasting chances to chip in to Liverpool's lead. Chances that Chelsea aren't failing.
Fulham away...we knew that was a banana skin and we did at least get a point. But Everton are dogshit, to fail to beat them at home is unforgiveable.

City have now P7 W1 D1 L5. It has to be the worst run they've had for ages. And the result is us being an embarrassing 3 points above them.

[Niall_Quinn]

Compared to last season (which was also pretty poor in the first half)

We have the same amount of clean sheets and the same amount of goals conceded

We’ve only scored four fewer (and the difference is that we’ve scored two pels this season, compared to six then)

As I said a few weeks ago, we were discussing around this time how we controlled games but weren’t creating enough chances, the build up play was too slow. The difference is we were getting a lot of last minute goals that we aren’t getting this time around

Crazy thing is we know the team can play direct football at tempo and we know it rips all the sub-standard defences in this league to shreds. Seen it. Wonder why the coaches at the club won't see it? I know you can't play that way for 90 minutes and I know if you play that way against a superior team you'll get you arse handed to you - only thing is, I can't think of a single superior team in Europe right now. We have every weapon required to rip a dodgy Liverpool defence or shit on a glory coasting Bayern. And we could go through deadbeat outfits like the bottom 16 of the PL like a blowtorch through melted butter. So instead, tip, tap, tip, tap. One of these days we're going to end up with 100% possession in a 0-0 borefest and everyone at the club will be beaming. 100% possession - WE DID IT! Going to be bigger than the Invincibles, you wait and see.

[IBK]

Crazy thing is we know the team can play direct football at tempo and we know it rips all the sub-standard defences in this league to shreds. Seen it. Wonder why the coaches at the club won't see it? I know you can't play that way for 90 minutes and I know if you play that way against a superior team you'll get you arse handed to you - only thing is, I can't think of a single superior team in Europe right now. We have every weapon required to rip a dodgy Liverpool defence or shit on a glory coasting Bayern. And we could go through deadbeat outfits like the bottom 16 of the PL like a blowtorch through melted butter. So instead, tip, tap, tip, tap. One of these days we're going to end up with 100% possession in a 0-0 borefest and everyone at the club will be beaming. 100% possession - WE DID IT! Going to be bigger than the Invincibles, you wait and see.

I wouldn't be surprised that this robotic possession game is part of some galaxy-brained desire for players to expend less energy per game or something. It's ironic that the team we most resemble in possession a lot of the time is Citeh...and instructive that their own slow build up play has nullified their record-breaking striker. Could it be that buying a striker while playing the same ploddy game against low blocks would not actually make that much of a difference.

The other question I have is how, suddenly, can all of our MF and attackers not finish? Is it a time thing (most of the time we have so little space to operate in that shots have to be rushed); a composure thing or a lack of practice in the kind of conditions that we mostly face with 11 players behild the ball?

One things for sure, when you read or listen to non-Arsenal specific football content noone is surprised by our failure to capitalise this season, because we have been the team that can't produce when it really matters for years. Maybe that's why noone has any sympathy for the 'bad luck' that we seem to suffer. We are perceived as bottlers who look for excuses rather than warriors who don't accept them.

Results like these might be brushed off in the 2nd or 3rd year of the project. In the 5th year - they are evidence of a lack of mettle.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s not that they can’t finish, Monaco was a game where players missed glaring chances. Against Everton there weren’t chances, there were half chances in a congested penalty area. As I said to someone on Saturday, we could have had Thierry Henry in the side and we would have struggled to break them down, short of some brilliant individual goal.

But the lack of an individual brilliant goal is more a feature than a bug, Arteta even himself admitted that he didn't want to relinquish the control we had of the game by bringing on an additional attacker.

I’m reminded a bit of this

https://youtube.com/shorts/8OYC5wA3Gmo?si=JwgNRkH9H5au6EV-

[Niall_Quinn]

We've often gone through these periods of nobody being able to kick a ball straight. I'm thinking it comes down to the mechanical nature of our game. We focus so much on safety it robs the players of the natural, individual spontaneity we saw in that kid Amad yesterday. Commentators drone on about players "expressing themselves", well there may be something to it. Confidence comes from achievement, when there's nothing out of the ordinary to achieve except keeping possession and making pretty patterns, when the game plan is to exhaust the opposition, there's no requirement for the spontaneous. Swords are blunted and eventually become cudgels.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Henry hits out at ‘predictable’ Arsenal and decision-making of star who ‘has to offer more’

Arsenal legend Thierry Henry believes “a lot of things need to change” for his former side to win the Premier League as they have become too “predictable” under Mikel Arteta.

The Gunners have have won just eight of their opening 16 games of the season as they look to win their first Premier League title since Henry and his fellow Invincibles won it under Arsene Wenger in 2003/2004.

Arteta’s side are currently third in the table, six points behind leaders Liverpool, and have been criticised over their style of football this season, with their reliance on set pieces frequently highlighted by fans and pundits.

On Monday Night Football, Jamie Carragher said: “When you’re watching them they’re not passing the eye test in terms of looking creative.

“You see that belief from Liverpool and you’re struggling when you’re watching Arsenal.”


Henry agreed with Carragher and claimed it’s too obvious how Arsenal are going to attack, but doesn’t believe Arteta is to blame for their struggles, instead highlighting the poor decision-making of the players and Gabriel Martinelli in particular.

Henry said: “They’re very predictable. It is outstanding to score from set-pieces. The last three goals in the league are from set-pieces.

“When you see Liverpool going forward you see [Joe] Gomez, [Darwin] Nunez, [Diogo] Jota running. But with Saka you know he’s going to play to [Martin] Odegaard.

“When you are in trouble at Arsenal the ball goes to Saka. Arsenal do create but it’s the choices they take.

“Martinelli knows he can give three people tap-ins if he goes inside but he goes outside.


“When you watch Arsenal you think the only way they look like scoring is a set-piece – we didn’t create a lot against Man United [when two goals from corners earned a 2-0 win].

“There’s not a coaching problem. No-one jumps at Arsenal anymore but if you don’t have bodies in between the lines to create decoys it’s going to be difficult if you give your ball to the winger on the right or the left.

“A lot of things need to change in order to win the Premier League. When I see Liverpool play it looks like they’re trying to win it and others look like they’re trying not to lose it.

“If you’re going to win the league you need to grab it and win it. You have to find a solution.

“In my team they helped on the other side (right). Everyone need to score and be important. Freddie [Ljungberg] used to make that run in between lines and score.

“If you want to be champions, people adapt to what you do. What are you going to bring year on year?”

Jamie Carragher added: “Martinelli has to offer more.”

Asked if Arsenal need to add a goalscorer to their squad, Carragher continued: “I don’t think it’s a striker necessarily but I think it’s an attacking player. For me, when you see this lad, Saka, on the right side and you see what they have on the left, it’s like chalk and cheese.

“Now, Martinelli and Saka, a few years ago were almost at a similar level but Saka has jumped up to be one of the best players in European football in his position but Martinelli unfortunately hasn’t joined them.

“I’ve always felt, last two years and even this year, the reason I’ve never gone for Arsenal is I feel they’re a world class attacker short. When I think of the other teams that Chelsea have, that Liverpool have, that City have, I don’t think they’ve got that quality.”
https://www.football365.com/news/henry-hits-out-predictable-arsenal-decision-making-star-offer-more


I agree with them except for the parts where they try and absolve the manager of blame.

The team's "robotic" play is directly the manager's doing. Our predictable and preferred line of attack on the right is directly his doing but I'll get to that later . The predictable and consistent lobbing the ball from the wings is again a system he has robotically forced them to play, despite the whole world knowing that our attackers are below average in heading the ball and snap one hit decision making.

As for Martinelli, again I blame Arteta, because as I pointed out a while ago, Arteta was ready to throw the cheque book and go all in for Mudryk, despite knowing that Mudryk could only play in Martinelli's position. He's never shown the willingness to do anything like that for anyone who plays Saka's position.

It is clear he had spotted a deficiency in Martnelli's game (before most people did) and yet did the minimal in aiding the player with quality support, and worse, the minimal in aiding the team, by patching us up with Trossard whose best contributions have come playing more inward as a fake 9....but even he has caught the Jesus bug.

Arteta needs to save face and try and make miracles happen this winter window, and he has no one to blame but himself as its doubtful that any serious team will give us their best attacking talents in January when they are busy chasing trophies.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why is it clear he spotted a deficiency in his game, as for Mudryk whilst he is right footed…he plays on both sides of the wing for Ukraine and it was likely he was scouted as a utility player. And despite you constantly trying to hammer home this narrative that we were looking to replace Martinelli….it was more because we had zero depth on the left at the time

Martinelli has a frustrating tendency as Henry points out to not use his pace enough to take on his man and cuts inside too often, not an original observation and it’s one I’ve been making for years. But equally no one is going to thrive on the left with that ridiculous inverted full back system and playing defensive midfielders in the no8 position.


Martinelli thrives when he has a player like Calafiori playing behind him. And he’s becoming a scapegoat for a manager who sets up the team not to lose rather than to win.

[IBK]

I agree with Thierry and with you regarding our robotic play.

The telling point for me is “A lot of things need to change in order to win the Premier League. When I see Liverpool play it looks like they’re trying to win it and others look like they’re trying not to lose it".

Also, I'm beginning to think that a new striker won't solve our issues. These are that we tend to be fine when teams are more open - in the CL or when we score first and the other team has to come out to try to score. But when faced with a low block, the manager's obsession with control means that there is no space to create good chances to score. Our possession game is undoubtedly robotic and we can't seem to switch it up and keep doing the same things - seemingly with a belief that we will untimately prevail. We are too predictable. And we do indeed often play as though we are trying not to lose rather than trying to win - this goes for individual games as well as the league. What frustrates me most is that we have the quality in defence to take risks by playing an extra attacker in the latter part of games when we need to score. But the manager refuses to do so - and more generally seems happy effectively playing two 6's in every game.

I struggle to believe that if told to come inside more, Martinelli would not do so. Also, I think that he is one of those players who rely on instinct - something that seems to have been coached out of him.

I differ from you slightly in the finishing issue. IIRC Odegard had a clear chance to score on Saturday but fluffed his lines, and if we are going to succeed with our current system, we have to finish even half chances because that is all we are going to get against well drilled defences.

[Mac76]

I've said it before but for me, our attitude in the home game against Brighton set the tone - we were 1-0 up but Rice was sent off, so Arteta organised a defensive change, planning to take Trossard (I think) off and bring a defensive player on - but then Brighton scored before that change was made - he then had a decision to make - did he go ahead and make us more defensive, hanging onto a point, or stay more attacking and try to win the game - which any team hoping to win the league would do and indeed Liverpool do.

He went ahead and made that change and pretty much wrote off any chance of our getting three points - then against Borumnemouth it was a similar story - we lost that game - so that's 1 point from 6 - but if he'd tried to win both and succeed in winning just one - that's two additional points

This exactly sums up that quote: "When I see Liverpool play it looks like they’re trying to win it and others look like they’re trying not to lose it".

[HCZ_Reborn]

If I’m honest I’m not too bothered by being defensive when down to ten men, I agree with IBK that the overall attitude is robotic but equally we do not have the quality and depth in attack to make it a worthwhile risk. Against Everton? It was 11 vs 11 they showed zero attacking ambition and couldn’t get out of their own third even if they had.

I think personally that instead of one point from six, we would have ended up with zero points from six. 11 vs 11 I think unquestionably we need to be more bold…there are clear instances where we are able to mount a decent counter attack plus the more attacking players the less likely the build up play is slow. But without a top finisher, i think it would end up being for nought with ten men.

Also the one thing no one says about Liverpool, is that between the period where Gakpo equalised and Fulham went 2-1 up, they weren’t pushing for a second goal. They were mainly attacking because they were chasing the game when they were behind. Yes they went for it a bit more at 2-2, but even then they didn’t go overboard….this was a team happy with a point rather than disappointed with not getting all three

[KSE Comedy Club]

Why is it clear he spotted a deficiency in his game, as for Mudryk whilst he is right footed…he plays on both sides of the wing for Ukraine and it was likely he was scouted as a utility player. And despite you constantly trying to hammer home this narrative that we were looking to replace Martinelli….it was more because we had zero depth on the left at the time

Martinelli has a frustrating tendency as Henry points out to not use his pace enough to take on his man and cuts inside too often, not an original observation and it’s one I’ve been making for years. But equally no one is going to thrive on the left with that ridiculous inverted full back system and playing defensive midfielders in the no8 position.


Martinelli thrives when he has a player like Calafiori playing behind him. And he’s becoming a scapegoat for a manager who sets up the team not to lose rather than to win.

Martinelli has lost his pace though. He used to be able to sprint away and leave players in the dust, now they just pace alongside him and half the time manage to make a tackle.

[Letters]

Martinelli has lost his pace though. He used to be able to sprint away and leave players in the dust, now they just pace alongside him and half the time manage to make a tackle.

He's 23!
I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you lose your pace at that age?!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Martinelli has lost his pace though. He used to be able to sprint away and leave players in the dust, now they just pace alongside him and half the time manage to make a tackle.

No I think that’s far more reflective of how long it takes to get the ball to him, by the time he gets it he’s being tightly marked and you can’t always use speed to get past someone directly in your way

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

He's 23!
I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you lose your pace at that age?!

Letters, are you being serious?

I mean I am not agreeing his problem is his pace or physicality ( unfortunately I think his problem, like most Brazilian talents is in his head ), but you can definitely lose your pace at a young age, especially in a demanding sport like football.

Obviously injuries can change your pace and even the way you run ...but also changes in the body (which could be be caused by external or inherent internal traits/factors) could also result to a loss of pace.

I actually think its quite normal for young fooball players who started early to appear slower pretty fast and freaks like Kyle Walker, who maintain that pace for long, are quite rare.

Hell I even think Saka seems slower, but I am not surprised at all.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think in terms of actual ability there is less than a gnats cock difference between Martinelli and Saka in terms of raw ability, they both have very similar attributes. I think Saka benefits from attacks being focused on the right, and I think Saka works harder….he will track back, he will drop deeper to receive the ball etc. Martinelli is a player who I regard as highly talented in terms of both pace and technical ability. It would be nice if he had the work ethic of Saka but it’s not going to happen.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReBk_MC8YZ8

A nice video on this.

Good to see Raheem really bonding with us, though he seems to be the only one shocked at his decline :lol:

Its funny how defenders speeds are usually quite underated, despite stats consistently suggesting they are the fastest players. It probably helps that they get the comfort of not having to pause or bend their runs.

[Letters]

Obviously injuries can change your pace and even the way you run ...but also changes in the body (which could be be caused by external or inherent internal traits/factors) could also result to a loss of pace.

https://dailycannon.com/2024/10/gabriel-martinelli-sprint-speed

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

https://dailycannon.com/2024/10/gabriel-martinelli-sprint-speed

The amount of sprints stat is really important and should be taken more into consideration...but could also be whats slowing all the attackers down :lol:

If only Havertz could make all his running and distance covered stats result into crucial goals...their would probably be no need for this Arteta sack thread.

To think our players consistently work harder than everyone and achieve less....yet the coach seems unbothered about it.

A bit like the Klopp vs Slot scenario playing out.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK0j2cGiW3o

Here's the proper video on youtube...... pretty good stuff from Titi

[KSE Comedy Club]

He's 23!
I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you lose your pace at that age?!

I think it's been more noticeable since he was out for a while with that injury.
He has lost a yard of pace at least since then.

[KSE Comedy Club]

No I think that’s far more reflective of how long it takes to get the ball to him, by the time he gets it he’s being tightly marked and you can’t always use speed to get past someone directly in your way

No as there have been countless times in games now where a longer ball has been played out to him and defenders don't have as hard a time keeping up with him as they used to.

He literally is not as quick as he was, I don't know how people can't see it :shrug:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I really don’t agree that he has, but I don’t know for sure. I think more often than not I think it’s more about the space he has to operate in. End of the day as I keep saying most of the time the defender has the space and time to catch up because the build up towards getting the ball to Martinelli has been slow

I tend to defend him a lot so I am biased anyway, but I think he’s often the convenient lightning rod, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Trossard is also struggling at this moment in time which has more to do with an inflexible system.

But the reason I defend him is because I think he’s one of the most naturally talented players we have in terms of pace both and technical ability.

[KSE Comedy Club]

https://dailycannon.com/2024/10/gabriel-martinelli-sprint-speed

That's great and all but how do his stats compare against players from other teams?

Surely that would be more relevant as I would say most of our players hardly bust a gut to sprint up the pitch when an attack is on (at least not this season so far)

[KSE Comedy Club]

I really don’t agree that he has, but I don’t know for sure. I think more often than not I think it’s more about the space he has to operate in. End of the day as I keep saying most of the time the defender has the space and time to catch up because the build up towards getting the ball to Martinelli has been slow

I tend to defend him a lot so I am biased anyway, but I think he’s often the convenient lightning rod, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Trossard is also struggling at this moment in time which has more to do with an inflexible system.

But the reason I defend him is because I think he’s one of the most naturally talented players we have in terms of pace both and technical ability.

Oh don't get me wrong, I like the guy and still think he's great, but I can only comment on what I am seeing.

His ability (whether it be physical or mental) to run and leave players in the dust like he did prior to his long term injury, has clearly diminished.

[Letters]

That's great and all but how do his stats compare against players from other teams?

Surely that would be more relevant as I would say most of our players hardly bust a gut to sprint up the pitch when an attack is on (at least not this season so far)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c0kjykv4z78o

He's the 5th fastest in the PL, apparently (which surely contradicts any assertion that he's lost his speed).
He is nearer the bottom of the table when it comes to who has completed the most sprints at each club (although I'd note this is from a couple of months ago). That could indicate that he's a bit lazy, or maybe it's just our languid style of play which doesn't lend itself to much sprinting.

[HCZ_Reborn]

He needs to go now, no waiting until the end of the season.

He had an open goal for the league and he skied it into the stands like Chris Waddle

I can’t and won’t forgive this.

[Chippy]

He needs to go now, no waiting until the end of the season.

He had an open goal for the league and he skied it into the stands like Chris Waddle

I can’t and won’t forgive this.

Yep.This.
Liverpool have won the league in early January because Arteta is a rookie manager who has spent a fortune and won fuck all (please no one embarrass themselves by mentioning the FACup). The Kroenke family should not give him any more money to waste and start looking for a proper manager.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Yeh, 5 years in and we have peaked twice in seasons 3 & 4.
This should have been the year.

There is still a chance it could be, but I would be surprised if it was and we should not be in that situation.

That is not good enough as we cannot afford another 6 - 10 years of rebuilding and trying to win.

[Mac76]

Yep.This.
Liverpool have won the league in early January because Arteta is a rookie manager who has spent a fortune and won fuck all (please no one embarrass themselves by mentioning the FACup). The Kroenke family should not give him any more money to waste and start looking for a proper manager.

Sorry but the FAC is a significant trophy which our club has won more times than any other so to discount it, whatever one thinks of Arteta, is ridiculous

Give him his due FFS, he won that in a very pragmatic way and overcame some very big teams to do it

but what's happened since is a failure to build on our attacking options at the expense of stacks of defensive players, also to strangle our creativity within an overly-regimented and stodgy playing style

and ofc there's the whole inverted LB rubbish which caused Zin to be inflicted upon us while Andy Robertson shows how it's done at Livepool week in week out

[Letters]

Yeh, 5 years in and we have peaked twice in seasons 3 & 4.
This should have been the year.

There is still a chance it could be, but I would be surprised if it was and we should not be in that situation.

That is not good enough as we cannot afford another 6 - 10 years of rebuilding and trying to win.

I refer you to my post in the match thread. We are actually in a very similar position to we were at this stage last season, and I'd argue we've played harder games this year.
It is feeling like a bit of a slog so far, but I think it's a bit too early to throw in the towel.

[Mac76]

I refer you to my post in the match thread. We are actually in a very similar position to we were at this stage last season, and I'd argue we've played harder games this year.
It is feeling like a bit of a slog so far, but I think it's a bit too early to throw in the towel.

This transfer window will decide it, if they get 2-3 players in then there's just a chance

I have to say that given it's unlikely to happen before this weekend, we're about to be dumped out of the League Cup and FA Cup in pretty short order - I know some don't care, but we need to win something to keep some of our players on board, plus it will heap pressure on Arteta to get something from the League and CL this season

I'm a bit mixed on the league and probably am happy with top 4 - the worst scenario is if we finish just one or two points behind Liverpool and so it all comes down to those PGMOL c**** and their biased decisions, it will be pretty hard to take

[Letters]

we're about to be dumped out of the League Cup and FA Cup in pretty short order
Are we, though? We're capable of beating the sides in both cups.


I'm a bit mixed on the league and probably am happy with top 4
I'm absolutely not happy with that and I'll be massively pissed off if it's Liverpool who capitalise on City's malaise and not us.
Title or bust for me but I'm not as dismissive of the FA Cup as some on here seem to be.

[Mac76]

Are we, though? We're capable of beating the sides in both cups.



LC - We probably won't have Odegaard, Havertz or even Nwaneri for at least the home game - it will be a massacre given Newcastle's current form

FAC - OK so I'd expect us to win the Man Ure game if we didn't have such a depleted squad but in the circumstances it could go either way - if Amorim has half a brain and starts with both Garnacho and Diallo it will be a struggle IMO

[KSE Comedy Club]

I refer you to my post in the match thread. We are actually in a very similar position to we were at this stage last season, and I'd argue we've played harder games this year.
It is feeling like a bit of a slog so far, but I think it's a bit too early to throw in the towel.

I agree, I still think there is a chance of us doing it but by god we are making it the hardest job in the world when it really shouldn't be.

We have played some of the toughest games, but then we have also dropped points in some of the easier ones too which is where the problems arise.

We have already drawn more games than we did the whole of last season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Let’s be reasonable and realistic here. There are two pieces of silverware that count as significant and only two and those are the League title and the European cup/Champions League. The rest are either window dressing or an admission of failure that we haven’t been able to compete for the other two.

Clubs like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich view their own domestic cups in such a way, and winning four fa cups in the last decade does not even begin to ameliorate the fact that we haven’t won our domestic league in over twenty years.

And as for the European cup…we’ve had to stomach the fact that fucking scumbag club Chelsea have won it twice….whilst we were being sent packing before the 1/4 finals on numerous occasions

If Arteta has brought us forward from where we were five years ago, that’s great and everything but Neil Kinnock brought Labour back from the brink and still lost two general elections. At some point you have put ruthlessness and ambition above sentiment

[KSE Comedy Club]

This transfer window will decide it, if they get 2-3 players in then there's just a chance

I have to say that given it's unlikely to happen before this weekend, we're about to be dumped out of the League Cup and FA Cup in pretty short order - I know some don't care, but we need to win something to keep some of our players on board, plus it will heap pressure on Arteta to get something from the League and CL this season

I'm a bit mixed on the league and probably am happy with top 4 - the worst scenario is if we finish just one or two points behind Liverpool and so it all comes down to those PGMOL c**** and their biased decisions, it will be pretty hard to take

Agreed mostly, except I think the PL should have been the main target this season.

Also that last bit is where I will disagree. It will come down to our games of poor play where we have been way below the standards that Arteta set the last two seasons and his ridiculous line ups and incessant tinkering with players and positions.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Are we, though? We're capable of beating the sides in both cups.


I'm absolutely not happy with that and I'll be massively pissed off if it's Liverpool who capitalise on City's malaise and not us.
Title or bust for me but I'm not as dismissive of the FA Cup as some on here seem to be.

Same here, PL was absolutely the main priority this season for me.

[Letters]

Clubs like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich view their own domestic cups in such a way
That's a bit of a false equivalence.
The FA Cup is regarded far more highly than any other domestic cup.
With the rise of the CL it has somewhat lost its sheen admittedly but I still regard it fairly highly and it's still a "thing" in the way the league cup really isn't.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be enough given the spend Arteta has been allowed. But it's not nothing.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's a bit of a false equivalence.
The FA Cup is regarded far more highly than any other domestic cup.
With the rise of the CL it has somewhat lost its sheen admittedly but I still regard it fairly highly and it's still a "thing" in the way the league cup really isn't.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be enough given the spend Arteta has been allowed. But it's not nothing.

No it was viewed more highly, but it’s really no bigger anymore than the Copa Del Ray or the German Cup

[Letters]

No it was viewed more highly, but it’s really no bigger anymore than the Copa Del Ray or the German Cup

I mean, there's no objective measure of this but I'd suggest in terms of popular opinion you're not correct.
There's something about the history of the FA Cup which still gives it more prestige than any other domestic cup.
You seem to be confusing you thinking something with everyone thinking it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I mean, there's no objective measure of this but I'd suggest in terms of popular opinion you're not correct.
There's something about the history of the FA Cup which still gives it more prestige than any other domestic cup.
You seem to be confusing you thinking something with everyone thinking it.

I’d say you’re doing precisely what you accuse me of

I think there’s always commentators who go on about the magic and prestige of the Fa cup, but it feels to me a bit like a desperate sales pitch. Maybe the Fa cup should have the same lustre that it once had, but let’s be fair we come from a time where the Fa cup final was the centrepiece of the whole season. You had cup final day on the Beeb where the program would begin at least three hours before kick off. And now? It’s shunted back to an early evening kick off, and it’s not unheard of for it to be played on the same day as league fixtures

I think there’s a little more to it than my opinion you know

[KSE Comedy Club]

I would say that it is a generational thing.

It definitely has lost something in prestige for the younger gen (or last 20 years at least) since the CL came to the fore.

[Letters]

I think there’s a little more to it than my opinion you know

Maybe as KSE says it is a generational thing - growing up in the era where Cup Final day was a "thing" the whole country stopped for and there was a real buzz about before and after.

When we've won the FA Cup more recently it has meant something to me. If we won the league cup I guess I'd care in the same way as I do when Arsenal Ladies win a trophy. Sure, I'm not completely indifferent as I always want Arsenal to do well, but I honestly wouldn't really care that much. When Coventry "scored" that "winner" against Man Utd last year I yelled (before the spectre of VAR which looms over every goal did its thing), were that the league cup I wouldn't have been watching.

These two statements:

a) The FA Cup has lost a lot of its prestige and
b) It's still a meaningful competition which is widely regard as a major trophy

Can both be true and are not contradictory.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think there’s also a difference between saying that the FA cup is not a significant trophy and saying that it’s more significant than the league cup. With the exception of the final against Birmingham city I’ve never remotely been bothered by us losing in that competition.

Of course the FA cup still throws up very good games, the 4-3 game with Liverpool and Man United. The Coventry game you cited, but that doesn’t make it a significant trophy not relative to the league title or the European cup as an award. I’d say there’s often better games in the Fa cup than in the Champions League…the Champions League has become a rather dull competition. The semi final between PSG and Dortmund were the only games I especially remember from last season that weren’t our games.

But for a truly ambitious club, it’s not really controversial for me to say Fa cups are nice but they are the window dressing compared to the prestige of being the champions of England or Europe. Put it in tennis terms, the League is a grand slam title and the fa cup is an ATP tournament like Indian Wells

[Letters]

But for a truly ambitious club, it’s not really controversial for me to say Fa cups are nice but they are the window dressing compared to the prestige of being the champions of England or Europe.
That isn't controversial, but there's a big gulf in terms of how much I care about the FA Cup and League Cup. If we won the latter I honestly don't think I'd care that much, obviously it's always nice but it's not something I'd be crowing about to anyone and if I did then I'd be mocked. I think people in general care more about the FA Cup - I'd refer the honourable gentleman to the FA Cup match threads on here, look at people's reaction to us winning. I don't think people would have reacted anything like the same way with the league cup.

Unfortunately these days for top clubs it's very much CL then PL then FA Cup, and for the next tier one could argue "Top 4" would be up there with the FA Cup. It's a sad state of affairs, but for me an FA Cup would be meaningful - but also not an adequate return on investment, again I don't see that as a contradiction.

[HCZ_Reborn]

When the league was never a realistic prospect, winning the fa cup was good. Now that it is, it feels like at best a consolation prize and not much of one

[Letters]

When the league was never a realistic prospect, winning the fa cup was good. Now that it is, it feels like at best a consolation prize and not much of one

In that context, I agree.
I wouldn't be indifferent if we won it, but it wouldn't be enough for me either to make me think Arteta can get us over the line in the biggest competitions.

[IBK]

In that context, I agree.
I wouldn't be indifferent if we won it, but it wouldn't be enough for me either to make me think Arteta can get us over the line in the biggest competitions.

Strangely enough I fancy us as much for the CL as for the FA Cup with all the fixture congestion...

[Chippy]

Strangely enough I fancy us as much for the CL as for the FA Cup with all the fixture congestion...

:lol: Champion's league?

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol: Champion's league?

I could be wrong but the point being made is because of the fixture pile up, even winning the fa cup will be as hard as the champions league

I’ll be honest I would have been ok with us going out of the league cup to palace. It’s a nothing trophy.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Arteta’s record as coach seems to work in halves

Arteta’s first 96 league games which take us from the time he took charge to the end of the season where we missed out on the Champions League

Totalling 49 wins 16 draws and 31 defeats


Then the season where we first challenged for the league until now

Totalling 65 wins 18 draws and 13 defeats

Scored 150 goals in first 96 games

Scored 218 goals in second 96 games


Going from averaging 1.6 goals a game to 2.3


Conceded 109 in first 96

Conceded 91 in second 96



And in last two seasons


You can arguably split up the season in halves - first half of 2022/2023 we got 50 points, second half 34

Albeit less of a big split, First half of last season 40 points, second half 49 points

[Mac76]

Let’s be reasonable and realistic here. There are two pieces of silverware that count as significant and only two and those are the League title and the European cup/Champions League. The rest are either window dressing or an admission of failure that we haven’t been able to compete for the other two.

Clubs like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich view their own domestic cups in such a way, and winning four fa cups in the last decade does not even begin to ameliorate the fact that we haven’t won our domestic league in over twenty years.


Like everyone else you're missing the point that everyone has to start somewhere and for this team, which is entirely different from the one that last won the FAC, it is very important for them to have a day in the sun and to hold a trophy and know they can do it. With a very few exceptions such as Jorginho none of them have won anything.

THat's why I'd take even the League Cup right now as it would help to build confidence that they can go onto greater things.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That’s a load of bullshit though isn’t it. Liverpool didn’t need a “day in the sun” before they won the European cup and the premier league the next season.

As far as I’m concerned, the league cup, the fa cup and to be honest even the champions league are distractions from the league especially with a thin squad and injury issues.

[IBK]

I could be wrong but the point being made is because of the fixture pile up, even winning the fa cup will be as hard as the champions league

I’ll be honest I would have been ok with us going out of the league cup to palace. It’s a nothing trophy.

You're definitely not wrong :good:

[IBK]

That’s a load of bullshit though isn’t it. Liverpool didn’t need a “day in the sun” before they won the European cup and the premier league the next season.

As far as I’m concerned, the league cup, the fa cup and to be honest even the champions league are distractions from the league especially with a thin squad and injury issues.

In fairness, my opinion is that silverware of any nature can be an important building block. the FA Cup saved Arteta's career at Arsenal. We have been nearly men for 2 seasons, and there is an argument for saying that for this team even the Carabo Cup might be a psychological boost for a team that is in danger of regressing if we end this season empty handed.

[Mac76]

In fairness, my opinion is that silverware of any nature can be an important building block. the FA Cup saved Arteta's career at Arsenal. We have been nearly men for 2 seasons, and there is an argument for saying that for this team even the Carabo Cup might be a psychological boost for a team that is in danger of regressing if we end this season empty handed.

Precisely, unfortunately people need a certain level of maturity to understand that point ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

Precisely, unfortunately people need a certain level of maturity to understand that point ;)

Except it’s not previously been a building block for us - in fact of the last five fa cups we’ve won, only once have we even challenged for the league the following season.

If you simply want us to win another FA cup as it’s five years since the last one, and like with the league cup a trophy is better than nothing…simply say so. But there’s no evidence of it ever being a staging post for something bigger.

Personally I’d rather prioritise the league, we probably have given ourselves too much to do thanks to Arteta but I think this Liverpool side (which has never won more than four games in a row so far this season) shouldnt be allowed to canter to the title

[IBK]

Except it’s not previously been a building block for us - in fact of the last five fa cups we’ve won, only once have we even challenged for the league the following season.

If you simply want us to win another FA cup as it’s five years since the last one, and like with the league cup a trophy is better than nothing…simply say so. But there’s no evidence of it ever being a staging post for something bigger.

Personally I’d rather prioritise the league, we probably have given ourselves too much to do thanks to Arteta but I think this Liverpool side (which has never won more than four games in a row so far this season) shouldnt be allowed to canter to the title

Like you say on the other thread, 2 things can be true at the same time. On balance I can see the argument for prioritising the league (albeit that I think it is beyond us) but I do think that this team needs a trophy to build on. We are (despite the general dsaffection) a better team than those post 2005 that won the FA Cup, and the ceiling is higher - but I think we need a shot of confidence.

[Letters]

I'm not sure I buy the stepping stone argument, but obviously I always want us to win trophies and the FA Cup is still one I care about.
As Ten Hag found out, it's not enough for a side with ambition, but it's not nothing.

[Marc Overmars]

The FA Cup has always meant something to me given that it’s linked to a lot of early memories following football and watching our success in it. I appreciate that the importance of the competition has taken a back seat now but a cup run is something I won’t turn my nose up at.

You don’t need to be a great team to win a cup, a lot of luck is involved so I do agree that even if we were to win it it shouldn’t hide how we’ve fallen short in the league.

[Mac76]

Like you say on the other thread, 2 things can be true at the same time. On balance I can see the argument for prioritising the league (albeit that I think it is beyond us) but I do think that this team needs a trophy to build on. We are (despite the general dsaffection) a better team than those post 2005 that won the FA Cup, and the ceiling is higher - but I think we need a shot of confidence.

Yes and I think particularly for a young side it's true they need to taste success - there's also the other factor that if we don't win anything they might start thinking they need to leave to do so.

[Marc Overmars]

I’ve backed Arteta fully over the last few seasons but I now cannot shake off the feeling that he’s taken us as far as he can. I think it’s unforgivable that after 5 years in the job and all the money spent we still have no reliable and recognised striker and our football has become so blunt and robotic. The fact set pieces represent our best opportunity to score is rather embarrassing too.

What a shame, after last season there was such a good platform to hopefully go one better but we’ve become so stale and difficult to watch.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’ve wanted him gone since 2020. But honestly I don’t see the sense in crying over a league cup semi final match, bit like getting angry over losing a pre-season friendly

[KSE Comedy Club]

I’ve wanted him gone since 2020. But honestly I don’t see the sense in crying over a league cup semi final match, bit like getting angry over losing a pre-season friendly

I agree with the sentiment, but its actually going to be this and the next couple of games that make the believers wake up and smell the horseshit.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted Arteta to be the man to get us over the line, but the summer & this season so far has been so disgraceful and baffling that I just don't think he is.

In fact I would say, I know he isn't.

[Letters]

I’ve backed Arteta fully over the last few seasons but I now cannot shake off the feeling that he’s taken us as far as he can. I think it’s unforgivable that after 5 years in the job and all the money spent we still have no reliable and recognised striker and our football has become so blunt and robotic. The fact set pieces represent our best opportunity to score is rather embarrassing too.

What a shame, after last season there was such a good platform to hopefully go one better but we’ve become so stale and difficult to watch.

I don't disagree with any of that but I want to at least see how this season plays out. I don't think the board are going to sack him anyway unless the second half of the season is a complete car crash, but I don't think he's going to get us over the line of winning the biggest trophies either.

[IBK]

I’ve backed Arteta fully over the last few seasons but I now cannot shake off the feeling that he’s taken us as far as he can. I think it’s unforgivable that after 5 years in the job and all the money spent we still have no reliable and recognised striker and our football has become so blunt and robotic. The fact set pieces represent our best opportunity to score is rather embarrassing too.

What a shame, after last season there was such a good platform to hopefully go one better but we’ve become so stale and difficult to watch.

This sums up exactly how I feel, mate. Re Letters' post I don't think you are calling for Arteta's head as such, rather expressing your real concerns that we are plateauing under him.

I get HCZ saying that its the league cup so it doesn't matter. But for me its not the competition so much as the fact that essentially Newcastle swatted us aside. The sad fact is that I think they would half-expected to do so. Without Saka teams do not fear us - and most of the coaches in the league now seem to understand precisely how to blunt our mediocre front line - and have also worked out our set pieces.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I agree the sentiment, but its actually going to be this and the next couple of games that make the believers wake up and smell the horseshit.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted Arteta to be the man to get us over the line, but the summer & this season so far has been so disgraceful and baffling that I just don't think he is.

In fact I would say, I know he isn't.

Fair enough, I’ve never liked him on a personal level…just seems cold, passive aggressive and unpleasant. I’ve also never liked the football we played under him, but in terms of head to head against the bigger teams it’s clearly been bringing us success. I think people talking about regression have short memories…as this for me is Groundhog Day of where we were exactly a year ago. But the problem is hard of thinking people seem to think I’m saying this as a defence of the man when it’s the opposite.

I think people do absolutely also like throwing the baby out with the bath water and talk about another rebuild. I mean why…this is a very good squad that needs for me three players…cover for Odegaard or indeed someone who can play with him as part of a double pivot, cover for Saka and a striker.

I don’t trust Arteta to a) get in these players b) let go of his need either for the inverted full back or the no8 role. That kind of stubborn obsessiveness doesn’t auger a happy ending so he needs to go with minimum of ceremony.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This sums up exactly how I feel, mate. Re Letters' post I don't think you are calling for Arteta's head as such, rather expressing your real concerns that we are plateauing under him.

I get HCZ saying that its the league cup so it doesn't matter. But for me its not the competition so much as the fact that essentially Newcastle swatted us aside. The sad fact is that I think they would half-expected to do so. Without Saka teams do not fear us - and most of the coaches in the league now seem to understand precisely how to blunt our mediocre front line - and have also worked out our set pieces.

I go back to 2005/2006 when we had Thierry Henry and a developing Robin Van Persie up front. But especially away from home our build up play was so much slower without Vieira that we lost countless games without scoring or creating chances.
Having a top striker will only get you so far unless we change the way we play, especially against teams like Newcastle who aren’t especially great but carry a sting in the tail. We need more creativity in the team to move the ball forward quicker and stretch the play. Arteta is obsessed with recreating the Xhaka role because he was capable of long passes that set players away and that’s what we don’t have now so much….i think he’s wrong

[Letters]

Fair enough, I’ve never liked him on a personal level…
You don't know him on a personal level :lol:

[IBK]

I go back to 2005/2006 when we had Thierry Henry and a developing Robin Van Persie up front. But especially away from home our build up play was so much slower without Vieira that we lost countless games without scoring or creating chances.
Having a top striker will only get you so far unless we change the way we play, especially against teams like Newcastle who aren’t especially great but carry a sting in the tail. We need more creativity in the team to move the ball forward quicker and stretch the play. Arteta is obsessed with recreating the Xhaka role because he was capable of long passes that set players away and that’s what we don’t have now so much….i think he’s wrong

Couldn't agree more with you re transitions, as I've stated on the other thread. And I also agree that even the fabled 'top striker' would struggle in Areteta's current system (albeit that our Xg is good, so we would be doing better than we are). I don't agree with you re Newcastle though. They are hitting form, and when on form they are very good. Excellent defence when set; quick transitions and crrrently the best striker in the league.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You don't know him on a personal level :lol:

You don’t know Trump on a personal level but it’s not stopped you discussing what kind of person he is

Maybe Arteta in private is warm, likeable, good humoured and charismatic

Usually you’d see evidence of it on the surface though

[Letters]

You don’t know Trump on a personal level but it’s not stopped you discussing what kind of person he is
At a very high level. And based on not just his words and actions, but testimony from people who know him.
Your analysis of Arteta's body language in an edited reality TV show and your pontifications about his marriage based on that are ludicrous.

[HCZ_Reborn]

At a very high level. And based on not just his words and actions, but testimony from people who know him.
Your analysis of Arteta's body language in an edited reality TV show and your pontifications about his marriage based on that are ludicrous.

You’re worse than me honestly. You said edited as if that means anything. Answer me this, why would it have been edited to make him seem worse than he is. In many respects these documentaries are sanitised PR exercises for the club, if you genuinely think it’s been edited to make him look worse than I don’t know what to tell you

In the same program you see Xhaka go home to his partner and children and is demonstrably affectionate. Arteta isn’t…..it’s possible that he didn’t feel comfortable being so whilst on camera. But again from what I know of body language and the non verbal tells, the guy demonstrates traits of being on the spectrum. That’s not why I don’t like him…I don’t like him because he’s arrogant without cause to be, and comes across cold, passive aggressive and without much personality.

I’ve seen enough of Arteta in press conferences as well as that documentary to suggest that if he has a warm, ebullient side to him. He’s done a great job of hiding it

[IBK]

You don’t know Trump on a personal level but it’s not stopped you discussing what kind of person he is

Maybe Arteta in private is warm, likeable, good humoured and charismatic

Usually you’d see evidence of it on the surface though

I think where I am getting to with Arteta is that I appreciate what he has done for the club since he joined us. We were completely in the wilderness, and we are now in the conversation for the league and the CL - a place that we had not been in for a decade previously.

I coudn't care less about his personality. Personally I think he is more maligned than he deserves to be by many pundits, but like Guardiola - an obsessive personality will be tolerated, even admired when it yields results, and critcised when it does not. What matters is whether his players are behind him - they clearly are (for now), and whether potential transfers want to play under him - they clearly do. This latter factor depends however on whether they see (1) that they will develop under him, and (2) the opportunity to win things.

This is where we are now. I maintain that we progressed as a team under Arteta up until recently. Now, it seems that like many of his players he is plateauing, and even regressing. It happens. Wenger's permissive style - focussing on science and free flowing football was successful, but then other clubs caught up and he had his day. What were benefits became hiderances, and we saw the inevitable myopia that comes with unrestricted power, after David Dein's departure.

I wonder whether Arteta's stubborness; obsession with small margins (seemingly sometimes at the expense of the bigger picture), and apparent belief that a rigid possession based system is the only blueprint - despite it seeming suddenly flawed - is a 'terminal' issue that will prevent us from succeeding? The problem is that for all the (some justified) excuses, we are at stage 5 of his own plan and failure to land a big trophy this season will show that he does not quite have what it takes.

I am, and have always been very wary of thinking the grass is greener elsewhere. Not many managers can do a Slot. Most managerial changes intended to secure titles - particularly those that were not accompanied with oligarch or nation stage amounts of cash (not so possible these days with PSR) - do not work out, or require a step backwards before progress is made. There will have to come a time soon, however, where unless we are going to squander a talented squad, we will need to change direction.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Actually Slot I think actually proves that you don’t need someone special. What Slot has done is put his ego to one side, and just worked with what he has. There was evidence he tried to meddle with the blueprint left for him by Klopp early on in the season. There were a few games where they were trying to slow the game down and I think he had to re-think this after losing to Forest.
Many egomaniacs would want to win using their own style rather than the one their predecessor left for them. I would, my ego wouldn’t allow me to think I was just benefitting from my predecessors work. But credit to Slot for putting those feelings to one side

[Mac76]

Actually Slot I think actually proves that you don’t need someone special. What Slot has done is put his ego to one side, and just worked with what he has. There was evidence he tried to meddle with the blueprint left for him by Klopp early on in the season. There were a few games where they were trying to slow the game down and I think he had to re-think this after losing to Forest.
Many egomaniacs would want to win using their own style rather than the one their predecessor left for them. I would, my ego wouldn’t allow me to think I was just benefitting from my predecessors work. But credit to Slot for putting those feelings to one side

but aren't they then the very qualities that make him 'special' - the ability to not let his ego get in the way and let still be able to fight his way to the top and command respect at a very senior level in the game?

[HCZ_Reborn]

but aren't they then the very qualities that make him 'special' - the ability to not let his ego get in the way and let still be able to fight his way to the top and command respect at a very senior level in the game?

If we all assume that coaches are massive egomaniacs and someone who isn’t stands out, then yes sure I guess

We will see exactly how special Slot is when it comes time to dealing with the big egos in his dressing room. We’ve heard rumours about disquiet and about Van Dijk getting the hump with Trent Alexander Arnold. With Klopp, I think the players knew who was boss…I don’t know enough about Slot but he so far at least to me seems more content to step into the background.

It’s hard, ostensibly I think we could do with someone who is just a functionary to pick the team and do training. But that’s because I don’t think we have massive egos at the club. The question then becomes do you need big egos in the team who have that utter self belief to give them that extra bit