When will Arteta be sacked by

[Mac76]

So just saying, if it gone the other way and we’d won the league instead of them. I would not care about fans of other clubs being graceful about us

I don't agree, I think it's become so negative and seriously it spoils what football should be about, which is supporting your team but when all's said and done being able to recognise other teams' achievements

Social channels have enabled people to spend all their time dissing it, we still have to resist the temptation to trash everything becasue we don't like it

That said when I think about it, Citeh kind of bought their titles (possibly illegally), Chelsea bought theirs and Ferguson's Man Ure had the refs in their pockets, so I'm not sure how much credit I normally give other teams for winning the league :lol:

[Letters]

Everything is so polarised. Either you have to think Liverpool put on a football masterclass this year and this is a team who will be spoken about for generations or you have to think they just got lucky and no-one else really bothered this year so it doesn't count. Neither is true.
They've been the best side. In a season where none of the other likely suspects was at the level you'd expect. So they've had no real pressure on them.
But they're still on course for 90+ points which would have seen them there or thereabouts in most recent seasons, so fair play.
They've had a few things go their way and Salah's form would not have been expected at his age - clearly he's a world class player but no-one would have expected him to have the season of his career at 32.
They definitely deserve to be champions, but I don't think this is a really standout PL team. They won't retain the title unless they spend big IMO (bumped into a Liverpool fan in the office who reckons that's exactly what they'll do)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't agree, I think it's become so negative and seriously it spoils what football should be about, which is supporting your team but when all's said and done being able to recognise other teams' achievements

Social channels have enabled people to spend all their time dissing it, we still have to resist the temptation to trash everything becasue we don't like it

That said when I think about it, Citeh kind of bought their titles (possibly illegally), Chelsea bought theirs and Ferguson's Man Ure had the refs in their pockets, so I'm not sure how much credit I normally give other teams for winning the league :lol:

Liverpool have won something that not only did I want us to win, I think we should have won. And again even if I didn’t believe what I’ve said (and I do believe it fully) this is very raw…took me years before I could rewatch the champions league final of 2006.

I know quite a few Liverpool fans, I didn’t congratulate them or their team in 2020 when I was actually reasonably pleased that they won it (no skin in the game). Let our players and coach be magnanimous, I’ll be bitter, resentful and wanting to punish them next season.

Liverpool are rivals. They’ve been rivals before in the late 80s, early 90s and even for a time in the early 00s (they pushed United into third in 01/02). As letters so succinctly put it “fuck them”

And if it alarms you that they aren’t getting what you regard as their due credit, take solace in the fact that the media will be effusive in their praise as they always are with Liverpool

[Mac76]

I don't think this is a really standout PL team.

I wonder how many of those we'll see in future - as I sort of said above, Citeh artificially raised the bar (yes with money, but they used it well with Pep and some very good players) but maybe things will just settle a notch or two down from that - personally I don't care if that's the case, as it should in theory make it more competitive.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Everything is so polarised. Either you have to think Liverpool put on a football masterclass this year and this is a team who will be spoken about for generations or you have to think they just got lucky and no-one else really bothered this year so it doesn't count. Neither is true.
They've been the best side. In a season where none of the other likely suspects was at the level you'd expect. So they've had no real pressure on them.
But they're still on course for 90+ points which would have seen them there or thereabouts in most recent seasons, so fair play.
They've had a few things go their way and Salah's form would not have been expected at his age - clearly he's a world class player but no-one would have expected him to have the season of his career at 32.
They definitely deserve to be champions, but I don't think this is a really standout PL team. They won't retain the title unless they spend big IMO (bumped into a Liverpool fan in the office who reckons that's exactly what they'll do)

Indeed. There’s no suggestion from anyone (me included) that they didn’t deserve to win the title. They had good fortune, but I think every title winning team does to an extent. History won’t speak about the title race or lack thereof, it will show them as champions and equalling United’s 20 titles.

I say I think we should have won it this season, because I think even without attacking reinforcements overall I think we had a better team than them, but we didn’t show it…due to injury, refereeing decisions and frankly poor coaching and poor performances from the players themselves.

Liverpool like any team can only beat who is in front of them. Doesn’t mean I owe them a round of applause…I owe them shit

[Mac76]

I say I think we should have won it this season, because I think even without attacking reinforcements overall I think we had a better team than them, but we didn’t show it…due to injury, refereeing decisions and frankly poor coaching and poor performances from the players themselves.


The factors you mention are all very true, but whether or not that means we 'should' have won partly depends on what your parameters are - e.g. you say there were "poor performances from the players themselves"

Isn't part of what makes a good player - not just how good they can be at their best, but their level of consistency at a decent level? So if Liverpool's were more consistent doesn't that arguably make them 'better' in that sense?

Sanchez actually used to annoy me because he was inconsistent and often gave the ball away, it meant that, no matter how good some of his play was, I always downgraded him in my mind

[HCZ_Reborn]

Getting into the realm of semantics somewhat but if the argument was were they better than us this season? Than the table tells us yes they were.

For example, I don’t think anyone could argue against that Hungarian copy and paste has been better than Odegaard this season, is he better overall? Well that remains to be seen. If Odegaard recovers his form I’d say definitely not

I think our defence has been demonstrated to be better, and I think the only area where they’ve been better is up front. And that’s largely (although not completely) because of Salah. That’s the difference.

It’s subjective anyway, and I have no doubt that most Liverpool fans will sincerely believe their players are better than ours

It is my fondest desire to disabuse them of that notion next season

[Chippy]

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

Ok, this prick must be out by the end of the season and take Odegaard with him. We will not finish in the top five at this rate, so, Europa League for us next year. The Kroenke family should not give him another penny to waste.

[Mac76]

Ironically I think our best chance of him going is for him to win something big, decide his 'project' is concluded and move on

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ironically I think our best chance of him going is for him to win something big, decide his 'project' is concluded and move on

So what you’re saying is he will be with us forever?

[Chippy]

Ironically I think our best chance of him going is for him to win something big, decide his 'project' is concluded and move on

We will win nothing with this clown. Absolute shambles.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why are you all blaming the manager? What about those spineless 100K a week kids who have zero respect?

[Marc Overmars]

Bound to get a little bit ugly for Arteta after Wednesday.

It has been a total mess of a season, injuries and dodgy refereeing cannot mask this anymore. We simply haven’t done enough and we’ve fallen well below the standards we set for ourselves last year.

[Chippy]

Bound to get a little bit ugly for Arteta after Wednesday.

It has been a total mess of a season, injuries and dodgy refereeing cannot mask this anymore. We simply haven’t done enough and we’ve fallen well below the standards we set for ourselves last year.
Absolutely!
How have we gone from a possible CL Final and runners up in the Premier League to this? Believe me, we will be sweating on a top five finish. If we fail on both, Arteta MUST be sacked.

[Niall_Quinn]

Bound to get a little bit ugly for Arteta after Wednesday.

It has been a total mess of a season, injuries and dodgy refereeing cannot mask this anymore. We simply haven’t done enough and we’ve fallen well below the standards we set for ourselves last year.

I agree the buck stops with... wait a second - what about those Kroenke fucks and the January window? Club has had a loser streak a mile wide since Wenger and his go-along-to-get-along boardroom buddies baked it in 2 decades ago. Nothing has changed.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why are you all blaming the manager? What about those spineless 100K a week kids who have zero respect?

Just as well you didn’t say No respect


https://youtu.be/sFacWGBJ_cs?si=cH3LGHVvPuwZhlcq

[Niall_Quinn]

Who knows what that possibly means?

I know you have an agenda when it comes to Arteta, and several of the players. It form the foundation of every argument, every analysis, everything you say about the club. So nobody can take anything you say seriously.

As for me. When they are shit, I say they are shit, When they are good I say it.

Arteta, AND THE PLAYERS, decided the game against Palace was a throwaway. That was unforgivable and the rest is predictable. Winners win. Losers lose. It's a habit. Habits are hard to break. Arteta carries his share of the blame, coaching the players in how to analyse blades of grass. But to overlook the players who actually went out there - took the cash - and didn't give a fuck, what's that all about? Makes as much sense as you silly video to accept that from them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Who knows what that possibly means?

I know you have an agenda when it comes to Arteta, and several of the players. It form the foundation of every argument, every analysis, everything you say about the club. So nobody can take anything you say seriously.

As for me. When they are shit, I say they are shit, When they are good I say it.

Arteta, AND THE PLAYERS, decided the game against Palace was a throwaway. That was unforgivable and the rest is predictable. Winners win. Losers lose. It's a habit. Habits are hard to break. Arteta carries his share of the blame, coaching the players in how to analyse blades of grass. But to overlook the players who actually went out there - took the cash - and didn't give a fuck, what's that all about? Makes as much sense as you silly video to accept that from them.

Not everything has a deep meaning, just reading your post and the words zero respect reminded me of that silly video. Nothing more, nothing less.

But when you accuse others of having an agenda about anything , I tend to think pot calling the kettle black

It’s not an either or, players take blame if the results and performances are not good….but the buck stops at the top. He’s been here 5 and a half years, these are his players, this is his team…

[HCZ_Reborn]

As for Agenda against players, I would assume you mean Declan Rice. I’m not a fan, I never have been. Not quick, strong or technical enough for me. That said if he has a good game I’ll say so….and frankly tonight he looked to be one of the few players who actually gave a fuck.

[Mac76]

Your attitude towards Rice is perhaps the most absurd of all your indefensible positions, literally MotM in both Real games, he also has 34 goal involvements in 100 games for us

Your're literally 100% wrong - he IS strong, he IS quick (enough) and he has more than enough technical ability to play the game we need from him

[HCZ_Reborn]

Your attitude towards Rice is perhaps the most absurd of all your indefensible positions, literally MotM in both Real games, he also has 34 goal involvements in 100 games for us

Your're literally 100% wrong - he IS strong, he IS quick (enough) and he has more than enough technical ability to play the game we need from him

But unlike you and certain players I don’t allow my biases to affect my judgement. My player ratings show how highly I rated his performance in both legs against Real Madrid. And no I’m sorry but he absolutely doesn’t have the technical ability, pace or strength to play at 8, you need to be extremely athletic, have great acceleration and be a good dribbler and he’s not any of those things. His work rate, his leading by example and his ability to spot danger make him a very good player indeed. I don’t deny that, just not the type of player for me.

Checking the Opta stats he is behind Partey in terms of transition play, passing accuracy etc. He’s also behind Ryan Gravenberch for that matter

Also I find it extremely troubling how he doesn’t cope well with transitions or being pressed. I’m not expecting him to be Ozil on the ball but there’s a certain level

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cz01v8kee24o

:lol:

I think this is going to be one for the "aged like milk" files.

[Mac76]

But unlike you and certain players I don’t allow my biases to affect my judgement. My player ratings show how highly I rated his performance in both legs against Real Madrid. And no I’m sorry but he absolutely doesn’t have the technical ability, pace or strength to play at 8, you need to be extremely athletic, have great acceleration and be a good dribbler and he’s not any of those things. His work rate, his leading by example and his ability to spot danger make him a very good player indeed. I don’t deny that, just not the type of player for me.

Checking the Opta stats he is behind Partey in terms of transition play, passing accuracy etc. He’s also behind Ryan Gravenberch for that matter

Also I find it extremely troubling how he doesn’t cope well with transitions or being pressed. I’m not expecting him to be Ozil on the ball but there’s a certain level

So why did he play so well at, err, 8 against errrr, Real Madrid??

Your ability to deny the evidence that's in front of you is positively Trumpian

Mid-20s Championship players can't succed at PL level - proved wrong

Managers make no difference - proved wrong

Rice is rubbish - proved wrong

There's a bunch of other examples too where you state things unequivocably and are proved wrong, but instead of admitting it and moving on like an adult, you double down, I just can't be bothered to go back and find them

[HCZ_Reborn]

So why did he play so well at, err, 8 against errrr, Real Madrid??

Your ability to deny the evidence that's in front of you is positively Trumpian

Mid-20s Championship players can't succed at PL level - proved wrong

Managers make no difference - proved wrong

Rice is rubbish - proved wrong

There's a bunch of other examples too where you state things unequivocably and are proved wrong, but instead of admitting it and moving on like an adult, you double down, I just can't be bothered to go back and find them


This feels like it will go back and forth, I’ll accuse you of strawmanning and you’ll say I’m gaslighting you. But yeah I’d say to put it lightly that those are not in anyway fair summations of the positions I’ve taken.

But the fact is I don’t state it unequivocally. With the Gyokeres thing I’ve already shown you that you responded to what you thought I said rather than what I said. Honestly go back and look at what was said.

Same with the whole premier league managers thing, the only thing I can concede is that maybe I’m not coming across as clear as I think I am. But the idea that as a rule, the club with the most money and the best players will win the big prizes isn’t undermined by Leicester City winning it one year.

And to follow on from that it’s not controversial to say that the influence of managers is relatively peripheral. If you want to make out that I am changing the goalposts and that wasn’t my argument to begin with, If it wasn’t then I wouldn’t even bother with the “exception that proves the rule” counter. I make the claims you dismiss based on probability not no exceptions because there’s almost nothing out there that comes without exceptions


Also you give me the impression that you actually ignore things I say when it doesn’t suit your argument. I absolutely accept Rice played well at No8 against Real Madrid, in fact there’s nothing you will see me say to counter that. But to play well at number 8 game in, game out…you need in my view to be able to play through teams that will press you to death and will not give you time and space and you need to be able to be able to play against those who sit deep. In order to do that you need to be able to pick out passes quicker, be better technically and be quicker than Rice is (in my view).

I can say Merino had a good game up front, it doesn’t mean it’s his natural position. Despite my barbed comments at you, you’re obviously not stupid…so you can well understand that distinction.



I honestly give you the respect that you are debating me honestly here, but I do seriously believe that you have like me this pressing need to be right, Letters is the same.

[HCZ_Reborn]

And I tell you what, I’ll go one further. Recently you came back to me and said “I’ve never literally said play the under 18s” and actually I could show that you did in fact say that, but it was clear you meant it as hyperbole

So When I say Rice can’t play at number 8, it means he lacks for me the attributes to play the position in every game, it’s not me saying he literally can’t play there in the same way a feral cat given a replica kit can’t play there because it will lash out at people and run off the pitch.

It means I don’t think his particular talents are best suited to being played there as much as he has. Thus why I’ve constantly every time the team news has come out, lamented that he and Partey haven’t swapped positions

[Mac76]

And I tell you what, I’ll go one further. Recently you came back to me and said “I’ve never literally said play the under 18s” and actually I could show that you did in fact say that, but it was clear you meant it as hyperbole


Well, what i said when i corrected it was I didn't mean literally play the under-18s, I didn't deny saying it

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well, what i said when i corrected it was I didn't mean literally play the under-18s, I didn't deny saying it

Sigh

I’m not denying saying anything. I’m suggesting you have taken a maximalist to use your own words unequivocal interpretation of what I’ve argued for.

And to be fair, I even conceded a few days ago when discussing the manager issue that this is not necessarily the fault of the reader. The whole “pilotless team” suggestion, which was in no way what I was arguing for (or at the very least had no intention of making that argument)

With Gyokeres as I’ve said, there is no room for interpretation. I didn’t state in anyway a player who was playing in the championship in their mid twenties couldn’t perform in the league, I said words to the effect that I had no confidence that he could.

[Niall_Quinn]

But unlike you and certain players I don’t allow my biases to affect my judgement. My player ratings show how highly I rated his performance in both legs against Real Madrid. And no I’m sorry but he absolutely doesn’t have the technical ability, pace or strength to play at 8, you need to be extremely athletic, have great acceleration and be a good dribbler and he’s not any of those things. His work rate, his leading by example and his ability to spot danger make him a very good player indeed. I don’t deny that, just not the type of player for me.

Checking the Opta stats he is behind Partey in terms of transition play, passing accuracy etc. He’s also behind Ryan Gravenberch for that matter

Also I find it extremely troubling how he doesn’t cope well with transitions or being pressed. I’m not expecting him to be Ozil on the ball but there’s a certain level

Knew it. You couldn't resist.

[Niall_Quinn]

This feels like it will go back and forth, I’ll accuse you of strawmanning and you’ll say I’m gaslighting you. But yeah I’d say to put it lightly that those are not in anyway fair summations of the positions I’ve taken.

But the fact is I don’t state it unequivocally. With the Gyokeres thing I’ve already shown you that you responded to what you thought I said rather than what I said. Honestly go back and look at what was said.

Same with the whole premier league managers thing, the only thing I can concede is that maybe I’m not coming across as clear as I think I am. But the idea that as a rule, the club with the most money and the best players will win the big prizes isn’t undermined by Leicester City winning it one year.

And to follow on from that it’s not controversial to say that the influence of managers is relatively peripheral. If you want to make out that I am changing the goalposts and that wasn’t my argument to begin with, If it wasn’t then I wouldn’t even bother with the “exception that proves the rule” counter. I make the claims you dismiss based on probability not no exceptions because there’s almost nothing out there that comes without exceptions


Also you give me the impression that you actually ignore things I say when it doesn’t suit your argument. I absolutely accept Rice played well at No8 against Real Madrid, in fact there’s nothing you will see me say to counter that. But to play well at number 8 game in, game out…you need in my view to be able to play through teams that will press you to death and will not give you time and space and you need to be able to be able to play against those who sit deep. In order to do that you need to be able to pick out passes quicker, be better technically and be quicker than Rice is (in my view).

I can say Merino had a good game up front, it doesn’t mean it’s his natural position. Despite my barbed comments at you, you’re obviously not stupid…so you can well understand that distinction.



I honestly give you the respect that you are debating me honestly here, but I do seriously believe that you have like me this pressing need to be right, Letters is the same.

I'd love to know why you think Rice isn't quick enough against team who pack the defence? How would you know? Our game plan against such teams is to play at 1mph and tap it around in front of them. NONE of them are quick at anything - that's the whole problem. How you have managed to single out Rice when the tactics on every position on the pitch are garbage is a mystery. If the bloke gets told to play like a snail and tap it sideways, then that's what he'll do. He even said it out loud - the manage plans everything down to the last detail, we don't have to think. Partey, the real reason behind your irrational argument, played a blinder against Madrid. Then went back to Partey 1.0 against Palace. That's why I said, after the Madrid matches -- so it IS the manager who fucks Partey's game!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Knew it. You couldn't resist.

Couldn’t resist what exactly?

Not directly comparing Rice and Partey because I think they are different players. I think one has attributes that the other lacks and for many big games the two compliment each other.

What I will say is Rice very rarely puts in what I call a poor performance. Your argument was that Rice should be captain, and I wouldn’t object to that…in fact I’ve argued the same myself

His attitude and professionalism is second to none. Just not necessarily always a fan of his as a footballer

[Niall_Quinn]

Couldn’t resist what exactly?

Not directly comparing Rice and Partey because I think they are different players. I think one has attributes that the other lacks and for many big games the two compliment each other.

What I will say is Rice very rarely puts in what I call a poor performance. Your argument was that Rice should be captain, and I wouldn’t object to that…in fact I’ve argued the same myself

His attitude and professionalism is second to none. Just not necessarily always a fan of his as a footballer

So innocent, as if we haven't talked about this in depth.

[Niall_Quinn]

Couldn’t resist what exactly?

Not directly comparing Rice and Partey because I think they are different players. I think one has attributes that the other lacks and for many big games the two compliment each other.

What I will say is Rice very rarely puts in what I call a poor performance. Your argument was that Rice should be captain, and I wouldn’t object to that…in fact I’ve argued the same myself

His attitude and professionalism is second to none. Just not necessarily always a fan of his as a footballer

Didi I say Rice should be captain? If I did, it was probably more in the context that Odegard shouldn't be.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So innocent, as if we haven't talked about this in depth.

Yes I remember it well, and I remember every argument I made and stand by it

Ultimately it’s an opinion. That when we play teams that play with 11 behind the ball, Rice isn’t for me the player to be at 8

And I’m not a fan of his as a footballer, it’s strange to me that you think I’m being coy about it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Didi I say Rice should be captain? If I did, it was probably more in the context that Odegard shouldn't be.

That was most likely the context.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes I remember it well, and I remember every argument I made and stand by it

Ultimately it’s an opinion. That when we play teams that play with 11 behind the ball, Rice isn’t for me the player to be at 8

And I’m not a fan of his as a footballer, it’s strange to me that you think I’m being coy about it.

Because what you mean to say is you want Partey to play there. But you backed off that because I think even you realised it was a bit crazy.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Because what you mean to say is you want Partey to play there. But you backed off that because I think even you realised it was a bit crazy.

No, I absolutely would prefer Partey to play there because I think he’s a better passer of the ball. My personal preference would be that in most home games that Rice plays at 6 and we have two more attack minded midfielders in front of him. Because although I’d prefer Partey at 8, it’s not ideal

[Mac76]

No, I absolutely would prefer Partey to play there because I think he’s a better passer of the ball. My personal preference would be that in most home games that Rice plays at 6 and we have two more attack minded midfielders in front of him. Because although I’d prefer Partey at 8, it’s not ideal

Partey can't turn and recover whereas Rice for all your nonsense about his not being quick enough can, Partey needs to be facing the game, that's why he's better at 6

[Niall_Quinn]

No, I absolutely would prefer Partey to play there because I think he’s a better passer of the ball. My personal preference would be that in most home games that Rice plays at 6 and we have two more attack minded midfielders in front of him. Because although I’d prefer Partey at 8, it’s not ideal

So why not just cut to the chase? You have an agenda against Rice because you want another player there - even though that player wouldn't have the foggiest how to play that role and is actually perfectly suited to the role he already plays.

[Chippy]

Ok, this prick must be out by the end of the season and take Odegaard with him. We will not finish in the top five at this rate, so, Europa League for us next year. The Kroenke family should not give him another penny to waste.

So, after City winning on Friday and Chelsea beating Liverpool today, is anyone else thinking of the possibility of us not getting top five?
We might scrape past Southampton but, we ain't getting anything at Anfield and Newcastle enjoy raising their game against us. Only us and Spurs could finish sixth in a two horse race :rolleyes:

[Letters]

So, after City winning on Friday and Chelsea beating Liverpool today, is anyone else thinking of the possibility of us not getting top five?

No.
And there was no race at all this year.
It was a one horse procession

[Niall_Quinn]

So, after City winning on Friday and Chelsea beating Liverpool today, is anyone else thinking of the possibility of us not getting top five?
We might scrape past Southampton but, we ain't getting anything at Anfield and Newcastle enjoy raising their game against us. Only us and Spurs could finish sixth in a two horse race :rolleyes:

They'll do the absolute bare minimum to get what's needed for the next payday.

[Chippy]

They'll do the absolute bare minimum to get what's needed for the next payday.
There have been far too many bare minimum performances this season.
They are taking payment under false pretences. My employer has introduced a "pay for performance" wage increase system. Football clubs should do the same.

[Letters]

My employer has introduced a "pay for performance" wage increase system. Football clubs should do the same.
Not a bad idea.
Hilariously by the way my employer has done the exact opposite. No pay rises this year but we do get a one off bonus - amount to be determined but am expecting a pittance. But my favourite thing is the amount isn't dependent on your performance evaluation. Everyone gets the same regardless. Watch my motivation levels soar!

[Niall_Quinn]

There have been far too many bare minimum performances this season.
They are taking payment under false pretences. My employer has introduced a "pay for performance" wage increase system. Football clubs should do the same.

All the players would go to Spain and Italy or Saudi. In modern sport you have to get your priorities in order.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not a bad idea.
Hilariously by the way my employer has done the exact opposite. No pay rises this year but we do get a one off bonus - amount to be determined but am expecting a pittance. But my favourite thing is the amount isn't dependent on your performance evaluation. Everyone gets the same regardless. Watch my motivation levels soar!

We need DOGE here in the UK.

[Chippy]

Not a bad idea.
Hilariously by the way my employer has done the exact opposite. No pay rises this year but we do get a one off bonus - amount to be determined but am expecting a pittance. But my favourite thing is the amount isn't dependent on your performance evaluation. Everyone gets the same regardless. Watch my motivation levels soar!

That's funny. My employer changed the wage increase to performance related because you could do f all and get the same pay rise as the hard workers. <_<

[Letters]

We need DOGE here in the UK.

We kinda do to be honest. I mean, a competent version of it.

[Chippy]

There is a chance of Arteta being sacked if we mess up top five :partytime:

The attached thread offers a scenario where we could actually miss out on CLK footy next season.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/live/cx20wpp1kr2t

[Mac76]

There is a chance of Arteta being sacked if we mess up top five :partytime:

The attached thread offers a scenario where we could actually miss out on CLK footy next season.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/live/cx20wpp1kr2t

The 'run-in' thread sets it all out.

basically if we get 0 points from our last 9 available then there's a chance but crucially Chelsea play two of the other top five contenders to it is very unlikely

Either way, Arteta will not be sacked at the end of this season and would have to fail on all fronts next season (including top four/five) to get the sack even then I suspect.

As I've said before it's more likely he'll choose his own departure, probably after we finally win something or even failing that, if he realises his stock is in danger of falling too far if he stays much longer

[Niall_Quinn]

We kinda do to be honest. I mean, a competent version of it.

You'll be out of a job if they are competent. So maybe an incompetent version would be more in line with your particular organisation.

[Letters]

You'll be out of a job if they are competent.
Already am, fella :)

[Niall_Quinn]

Already am, fella :)

Good. But just you - or all of that bunch pf wasters?

[Letters]

Good. But just you - or all of that bunch pf wasters?
The gap between how much you think you know and how much you actually know is hilarious :lol:
But somewhere in between.
It was voluntary. Of course the issue with that is they don’t necessarily lose the right people.
But everything is so fucked that they will have to get rid of more people and I hear rumblings that they are now realising how many people aren’t doing much.

[Niall_Quinn]

The gap between how much you think you know and how much you actually know is hilarious :lol:
But somewhere in between.
It was voluntary. Of course the issue with that is they don’t necessarily lose the right people.
But everything is so fucked that they will have to get rid of more people and I hear rumblings that they are now realising how many people aren’t doing much.

Wow, what a shocker. Money sponging propaganda outlet of the British establishment isn't "doing that much" - I would have never guessed. Well, at least you soaked the taxpayer for a few good quid. So what's next? Government grant to study sleep patterns?

[Letters]

It’s weird you keep repeating things which aren’t true even though I’ve told you multiple times it isn’t true
:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

It’s weird you keep repeating things which aren’t true even though I’ve told you multiple times it isn’t true
:lol:

Truth may be weird, but it's the truth. So you got our before the newcomers USAID'd you? Smart.

[Letters]

Truth may be weird, but it's the truth.
Correct.
It’s just all lot of the things you say on multiple topics, this being one of them, aren’t true.
I have explained some of this before and yet here you are repeating them :shrug:

[Niall_Quinn]

Correct.
It’s just all lot of the things you say on multiple topics, this being one of them, aren’t true.
I have explained some of this before and yet here you are repeating them :shrug:

Alright. I'll lay off.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just hate the fact you voted for Labour. That's fucking evil. But whatever.

[Letters]

Just hate the fact you voted for Labour. That's fucking evil. But whatever.
You hate the fact I voted at all, I reckon.
I’m not a particular fan of any party really, and under a better system I would vote differently.
You see it as empowering evil. I don’t agree with the evil. And I see it as a pragmatic decision.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I

[Niall_Quinn]

I don’t agree with the evil.

That can't be true, or else...

[Letters]

That can't be true, or else...

There's two things. Firstly, I don't agree with you that they're evil.
Secondly, I continue to believe pragmatism is preferable to not engaging.
HCZ didn't vote because he deemed none of the candidates worthy. You didn't vote for the same reason and you don't believe in "the system" either.
The end results is you still have an MP, that person still "represents" you, or is supposed to. You not voting didn't change that, the only difference is you didn't get a say. So what have you actually achieved? A spoiled ballot would have been preferable, at least then "they" would have known your view. As it is there is no way to distinguish you from the lazy and the apathetic.
The main difference here is while I don't agree with your stance I do respect your right not to vote - although as I said elsewhere I quite like the Australian system where people have to do something even if the something is to spoil their ballot. Or maybe a "none of the above" option or write ins.
I think I've explained this as much as I'm going to.

[dazthegooner]

Well think he’ll be given until Christmas and if we’re nowhere near challenging for the title he will be sacked.

[Marc Overmars]

Biggest failure is that we don’t have a competent forward line after so much money and time invested in building this squad.

Need a massive summer really, even if it means having some difficult conversations about existing players and shipping them out.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

We've invested a lot in this squad but comparitively not much in attacking positions.

Most of it has been on defenders, we can't sign any more of them in the summer but I'm sure we will.

[Mac76]

Biggest failure is that we don’t have a competent forward line after so much money and time invested in building this squad.

Need a massive summer really, even if it means having some difficult conversations about existing players and shipping them out.

Out:

Zin
Partey
Jorg (only because already confirmed)
Tierney (likewise - a huge mistake IMO)
Cala
Neto
Odegaard
Arteta

In:

Tierney (immediate re-signing)
Two strikers
DM
Right 8
Good goalie to put Raya under pressure
A manager who knows what they're doing

[Niall_Quinn]

That's weird.

Partey was our best player tonight. He's CL standard and many aren't. What about Odegard?

Tierney is our best attacking fullback. Can't blame him if the manager doesn't twig how to use him.

Just get Gyokeres in - that's it - league title, good chance of CL.

Hmm, not sure about Arteta - he could coach Gyokeres into playing backward passes.

[Niall_Quinn]

There's two things. Firstly, I don't agree with you that they're evil.
Secondly, I continue to believe pragmatism is preferable to not engaging.
HCZ didn't vote because he deemed none of the candidates worthy. You didn't vote for the same reason and you don't believe in "the system" either.
The end results is you still have an MP, that person still "represents" you, or is supposed to. You not voting didn't change that, the only difference is you didn't get a say. So what have you actually achieved? A spoiled ballot would have been preferable, at least then "they" would have known your view. As it is there is no way to distinguish you from the lazy and the apathetic.
The main difference here is while I don't agree with your stance I do respect your right not to vote - although as I said elsewhere I quite like the Australian system where people have to do something even if the something is to spoil their ballot. Or maybe a "none of the above" option or write ins.
I think I've explained this as much as I'm going to.

Doesn't matter because you are blind.

The cunts just signed a deal with India so their lazy cunts they send over don't have to pay NI.

Work it out for yourself for a change.

You endorsed evil. You want to lie ( a sin), but the reality is self-evident.

You pitch up at chapel and virtue signal, but you already committed the ultimate sin. And you even defend it. If you said sorry, God would forgive. But you double down.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Just hate the fact you voted for Labour. That's fucking evil. But whatever.

:gp:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Biggest failure is that we don’t have a competent forward line after so much money and time invested in building this squad.

Need a massive summer really, even if it means having some difficult conversations about existing players and shipping them out.

Let’s face it we are in the position of a rebuild again this summer.


5 years on, £700m spent and we are almost back to square one.
Seriously!?!

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Let’s face it we are in the position of a rebuild again this summer.


5 years on, £700m spent and we are almost back to square one.
Seriously!?!

Don't forget we've won 2 charity shields! Its a legitimate cup according to Arteta.... :shrug:

[Niall_Quinn]

Let’s face it we are in the position of a rebuild again this summer.


5 years on, £700m spent and we are almost back to square one.
Seriously!?!

Failure to plan. It makes me crunch my own teeth and spit them out in rage. Knowingly walking into failure in the hope some miracle or random set of events will fall your way. Looking back at history and seeing that never happened. Thinking you'll be the first.

Sterling on loan and he's so bad we can't even play him anyway? Because we were WAITING to get Sesko? And all those other bastard teams refused to wait and just got on with the season! Wankers.

Two transfer windows to set ourselves up for what turned into the easiest title to win in living memory, and the easiest CL to win in living memory. And the plan was, let's get Sterling on loan.

Somebody has to pay for that.

The loan I mean, 200K a week or something like that I suppose? Because obviously nobody will take responsibility for this fuck-up of a season.

[Niall_Quinn]

The club is excellent at one thing - the false dawn.

Suddenly we can defend, until we can't.

Suddenly we are making important signings, until we aren't.

Suddenly we beat City 5-1 until we go on a shit spree collapse in the league.

Suddenly we beat Madrid and then forget to turn up.

It's a rollercoaster ride alright, not a great one though. A flat track with a three exciting bumps. That's be 2 grand please! Stay in your seats while we take you for a ride.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think an ambitious club would see that it’s time for us to part ways with Arteta.

For what it’s worth, he’s definitely exceeded my expectations of him as they were three years ago. To challenge for the title and get to the semis of the European cup is far more than I would have thought him capable of.

But this is his ceiling. It’s hard to know who to blame for last summer. It felt more like an exercise in someone deciding that a) we could make do with what we had and b) we can make the squad a lot thinner by getting rid of a lot of players and easing up the wage bill.
So it’s fair to say we have a problem even if he goes, but that’s not a reason to keep him. Ultimately last night wasn’t the problem, we made errors and they were punished but the real problem was the position we put ourselves in from the first leg. Like NQ I don’t think PSG are anything special, they’ve got some good players but also a lot of “meh ok I guess” players but they are well drilled as a unit and knew how to punish us.

That Arteta couldn’t find a more creative solution to being without Partey in the first leg shows his limitations. I’m sure he’d do ok with a team like PSG where the money and creative accountancy is there to allow you a steep learning curve.

But all throughout his Arsenal career, he’s made fatal errors in judgement, both in the transfer market and in tactical judgement and been too slow to correct.

And just in case people thinking im overlooking it, the striker or lack thereof situation is so glaring that it almost goes without saying. Who is responsible for that fiasco again not sure, but if Arteta wanted the power he now has at the club he also takes the responsibility.

Unlike some here I don’t think a rebuild of the squad is called for, but I think it will be if we keep Arteta on past this season

[Globalgunner]

Never was keen on Arteta from the start but he has shown us undoubtedly that he has a ceiling, and it is 2nd tier at best. New manager rocks up at Pool and wins it at a canter in his first season with virtually the same players as last year. Arteta never broken through in 5 years. Ill say that we have a good squad, better than I assessed at the start of September last year. Im impressed with Raya who is an upgrade on the chap getting relegated with Southampton but he lost me when he chose Havertz over Alex Isak and signing Sterling shows he doesnt actually have a clue. Arteta is like a recurring decimal. Same result no matter how hard he tries. Perfect Wenger replacement.

[Chippy]

Never was keen on Arteta from the start but he has shown us undoubtedly that he has a ceiling, and it is 2nd tier at best. New manager rocks up at Pool and wins it at a canter in his first season with virtually the same players as last year. Arteta never broken through in 5 years. Ill say that we have a good squad, better than I assessed at the start of September last year. Im impressed with Raya who is an upgrade on the chap getting relegated with Southampton but he lost me when he chose Havertz over Alex Isak and signing Sterling shows he doesnt actually have a clue. Arteta is like a recurring decimal. Same result no matter how hard he tries. Perfect Wenger replacement.

It is all rather depressing.
Like a fool, I had hope a few months ago that we had a chance to win the Premier League or the Champions League, but as many times before, we have fallen away.
Who can we get if we replace Arteta?

To make things even more annoying this morning, I have my Spud colleagues saying they will be champions of Europe come the end of May <_<
I couldnt even be bothered to remind them what Champions of Europe actually means.

[selassie]

I personally think Arteta should be given one more season. If we can nail the recruitment this summer and we all know what we need, and if we win either one of PL or CL next season because these are the expectations now, then he rightfully stays.

A season similar to this and I think Arteta should be shown the door next season.

Some of the issues this season could have been avoided if we were smarter with our recruitment, not just last summer but over the past few seasons....and whilst that is clearly Arteta and Edu's fault, I don't think any manager in World Football would have won us the big trophies this season with the squad we currently have given all our injuries this season etc

I definitely think Arteta is owed one more season, because up until this season we have been improving and those improvements were clear for all to see.

[Niall_Quinn]

A bastard like Simeone would be worth a punt. Somebody who can teach this lot that if you want the massive wages and all the trimmings that go with the privilege, you need to give back on a consistent basis. You need to earn it. Some of the performances this season have been a piss take. Players like Odegard checking out at the halfway mark and coasting home with the captain's armband, that can't be allowed to happen.

[Niall_Quinn]

I personally think Arteta should be given one more season. If we can nail the recruitment this summer and we all know what we need, and if we win either one of PL or CL next season because these are the expectations now, then he rightfully stays.

A season similar to this and I think Arteta should be shown the door next season.

Some of the issues this season could have been avoided if we were smarter with our recruitment, not just last summer but over the past few seasons....and whilst that is clearly Arteta and Edu's fault, I don't think any manager in World Football would have won us the big trophies this season with the squad we currently have given all our injuries this season etc

I definitely think Arteta is owed one more season, because up until this season we have been improving and those improvements were clear for all to see.

Well he's definitely getting at least one more season, I don't think that's in doubt. If we get a proper striker in and take care of the same mistakes that keep on happening, who knows? We'll likely get the striker - even they can't get away with that one for a third window. Whether Arteta can clean up the lack of consistency in the performances, so far there's no indication he can. He'll have to change the way he does things and I wonder if he's capable or willing to do that?

[HCZ_Reborn]

A bastard like Simeone would be worth a punt. Somebody who can teach this lot that if you want the massive wages and all the trimmings that go with the privilege, you need to give back on a consistent basis. You need to earn it. Some of the performances this season have been a piss take. Players like Odegard checking out at the halfway mark and coasting home with the captain's armband, that can't be allowed to happen.

Isn’t our football devoid enough of entertainment?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I think an ambitious club would see that it’s time for us to part ways with Arteta.

For what it’s worth, he’s definitely exceeded my expectations of him as they were three years ago. To challenge for the title and get to the semis of the European cup is far more than I would have thought him capable of.

But this is his ceiling. It’s hard to know who to blame for last summer. It felt more like an exercise in someone deciding that a) we could make do with what we had and b) we can make the squad a lot thinner by getting rid of a lot of players and easing up the wage bill.
So it’s fair to say we have a problem even if he goes, but that’s not a reason to keep him. Ultimately last night wasn’t the problem, we made errors and they were punished but the real problem was the position we put ourselves in from the first leg. Like NQ I don’t think PSG are anything special, they’ve got some good players but also a lot of “meh ok I guess” players but they are well drilled as a unit and knew how to punish us.

That Arteta couldn’t find a more creative solution to being without Partey in the first leg shows his limitations. I’m sure he’d do ok with a team like PSG where the money and creative accountancy is there to allow you a steep learning curve.

But all throughout his Arsenal career, he’s made fatal errors in judgement, both in the transfer market and in tactical judgement and been too slow to correct.

And just in case people thinking im overlooking it, the striker or lack thereof situation is so glaring that it almost goes without saying. Who is responsible for that fiasco again not sure, but if Arteta wanted the power he now has at the club he also takes the responsibility.

Unlike some here I don’t think a rebuild of the squad is called for, but I think it will be if we keep Arteta on past this season

:gp: Quite a measured post from you this morning.

Apparently Arteta believes we were the better side across both legs and PSG only have Donaruma to thank for going through.

He basing his argument on Xg , which is interesting.

AW and all other football people I've heard this morning dIsagree though, and are saying the same thing, we didn't do enough.

As far as I am concerned, Arsenal does not exist in a bubble.

Despite all the sacrifices made in the league, you couldn't compare our semi final efforts with what Barca and Inter gave in both matches; and when you look at the things that really matter, not Xg, not reaching semi finals, not coming second in the league every season, you realise the pattern of Arteta's Arsenal falling short by consistently being unable to go the extra mile when it counts.

Like Sky points out, we have had 4 semi finals after the FA cup win, playing 8 games in these ties and not won a single leg.

We've come a close 2nd twice in the league, losing each title in the business part of the season. Even this season, Liverpool's results in the business half shows they could have been caught, if we replicated the form we had last season in our last 15 games (we took 40 points from 45, we'd be 13 points better off and only 2 points behind Liverpool, with Anfield to come).

Looking at the players yesterday I never saw belief that they would get back into the game, not once, not even after the penalty save. Again, we don't exist in a bubble. Barca came back from a 2 goal deficit in 2 legs twice!

With all the Xg, we were only comfortable enough to get a goal when it was clear the game was done and dusted. This is a game that was easily our most important game in 15 years or so. BTW, that goal was only our 2nd goal across 8 semi final matches!

Arteta's belief in small incremental steps will encourage this team to stay comfortable and never ask themselves tough questions. They'll never be able to reach within themselves to unleash that extra and bring out their full potential. This idea of being comfortable in your skin is not a mentality that can make you no1 in a truly competitive sport.

[Niall_Quinn]

Isn’t our football devoid enough of entertainment?

Nothing to lose. Can't see Arteta abandoning that soul crushing possession game in 90% of the matches. At least Simeone would introduce a bit of lumping and bone crushing - something to watch.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Nothing to lose. Can't see Arteta abandoning that soul crushing possession game in 90% of the matches. At least Simeone would introduce a bit of lumping and bone crushing - something to watch.

Well if by that you mean thuggery and actually cheating. Prolific divers and time wasters

We’d get the same amount of red cards, only this time we’d probably deserve them

[selassie]

Well he's definitely getting at least one more season, I don't think that's in doubt. If we get a proper striker in and take care of the same mistakes that keep on happening, who knows? We'll likely get the striker - even they can't get away with that one for a third window. Whether Arteta can clean up the lack of consistency in the performances, so far there's no indication he can. He'll have to change the way he does things and I wonder if he's capable or willing to do that?

I personally think we need more than a striker. At the bare minimum we need a striker (top class one, not a project), we need a top class winger to effectively relegate Martinelli to a bench / rotational player, I also think we need a creative midfielder to properly challenge Odegaard. Backup keeper is required too of a decent standard.

For sure Arteta needs to be a bit more flexible in his approach, but some of what we are seeing is more down to who we have available because the football we saw from a fully fit squad January 2024 to the end of last season was a damn sight better than what we have seen for a majority of this season.

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp: Quite a measured post from you this morning.

Apparently Arteta believes we were the better side across both legs and PSG only have Donaruma to thank for going through.

He basing his argument on Xg , which is interesting.

AW and all other football people I've heard this morning dIsagree though, and are saying the same thing, we didn't do enough.

As far as I am concerned, Arsenal does not exist in a bubble.

Despite all the sacrifices made in the league, you couldn't compare our semi final efforts with what Barca and Inter gave in both matches; and when you look at the things that really matter, not Xg, not reaching semi finals, not coming second in the league every season, you realise the pattern of Arteta's Arsenal falling short by consistently being unable to go the extra mile when it counts.

Like Sky points out, we have had 4 semi finals after the FA cup win, playing 8 games in these ties and not won a single leg.

We've come a close 2nd twice in the league, losing each title in the business part of the season. Even this season, Liverpool's results in the business half shows they could have been caught, if we replicated the form we had last season in our last 15 games (we took 40 points from 45, we'd be 13 points better off and only 2 points behind Liverpool, with Anfield to come).

Looking at the players yesterday I never saw belief that they would get back into the game, not once, not even after the penalty save. Again, we don't exist in a bubble. Barca came back from a 2 goal deficit in 2 legs twice!

With all the Xg, we were only comfortable enough to get a goal when it was clear the game was done and dusted. This is a game that was easily our most important game in 15 years or so. BTW, that goal was only our 2nd goal across 8 semi final matches!

Arteta's belief in small incremental steps will encourage this team to stay comfortable and never ask themselves tough questions. They'll never be able to reach within themselves to unleash that extra and bring out their full potential. This idea of being comfortable in your skin is not a mentality that can make you no1 in a truly competitive sport.

Wenger's curse still lingers. The club has never shaken it. The Top 4 Trophy! Now we are "Champions in Waiting", apparently. Ah, the waiting period... Roll on the summer and the wanting period, followed by the what-the-fuck period.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well if by that you mean thuggery and actually cheating. Prolific divers and time wasters

We’d get the same amount of red cards, only this time we’d probably deserve them

Like I said, nothing to lose.

[Niall_Quinn]

I personally think we need more than a striker. At the bare minimum we need a striker (top class one, not a project), we need a top class winger to effectively relegate Martinelli to a bench / rotational player, I also think we need a creative midfielder to properly challenge Odegaard. Backup keeper is required too of a decent standard.

For sure Arteta needs to be a bit more flexible in his approach, but some of what we are seeing is more down to who we have available because the football we saw from a fully fit squad January 2024 to the end of last season was a damn sight better than what we have seen for a majority of this season.

Absolutely, several players required to shake up the luxury some of the current crop enjoy due to the lack of competition. And just for the squad depth. We literally went into those big CL ties with half the academy on the bench. When you look at the squad depth of all the teams we are supposedly challenging, there's no comparison. I wonder how everyone else can afford the wages when we can't, especially in light of the ever increasing commercial efforts. Trouble is, it's a vicious cycle. If you aren't winning then you need to pay over the odds and pay early to keep hold of your talent. And when you bring in cover/ competition you risk players running off who don't fancy it, because they can benchwarm at far more successful clubs. I can imagine it's not easy to juggle it all - but they bring it on themselves. Just a little bit of ambition last summer and where might we be today? Every make do and mend, jam tomorrow decision has potentially many knock-on effects. Same as the momentum argument - winning is a habit and everyone likes being involved in a winning environment. And the benefits accrue from there.

Hopefully the fanbase won't settle for, "We didn't do too badly, second (fingers crossed) in the league, semis in the CL!" Hopefully they won't be able to slide that one past and make the oweners and manager feel as comfortable as some of these players are.

[Mac76]

There's an incredeible amount of revisionism going on on social media, apparently our lack of a stiker is nothing to do with Arteta and it's all the board/owners fault for not backing him, never mind that he prioritised Merino and Calafiori over the summer while getting rid of ESR, Vieira, Nelson, Eddie - Ok, none of them are that great but he replaced them with ... Sterling

I get that they clearly wanted to sell off some players to bring some money in (and I'm not unhappy with any of the ones they did sell), but it's where he put the money available that's on him - he honestly thought Havertz and Jesus would be enough...

[HCZ_Reborn]

There's an incredeible amount of revisionism going on on social media, apparently our lack of a stiker is nothing to do with Arteta and it's all the board/owners fault for not backing him, never mind that he prioritised Merino and Calafiori over the summer while getting rid of ESR, Vieira, Nelson, Eddie - Ok, none of them are that great but he replaced them with ... Sterling

I get that they clearly wanted to sell off some players to bring some money in (and I'm not unhappy with any of the ones they did sell), but it's where he put the money available that's on him - he honestly thought Havertz and Jesus would be enough...

The thought process as I understood it was that Merino and Calafiori were more necessary because it was expected that if we were going to be in midfield and defence (I think we all can agree that Partey playing as much as he has this season is not something any of us thought would happen).

Where as Trossard, Saka and Havertz who got the majority of our goals last season did stay fit, and with them we got 91 league goals

To clarify, this is not my view….this is what I believe the view of Arteta and those around him had (although there is a question mark over how unified they all were, as the reasons for Edu’s departure still remain speculative)

It was a Gamble and one that clearly failed.


I can’t remember whether it was you or someone else who said that they were mainly happy for the fringe players to go because the expectation was that they would be replaced (which was much how I felt at the time), to a degree I guess they have been with the promotion of Nwaneri and Lewis-Skelly.


But selling off Nketiah and not bringing someone else in felt particularly rum, simply because there are a lot of games where he could have played and not risked Havertz with soft tissue injuries by being overused.

And that’s before you factor in the very big assumption that all these players would perform as well in front of goal as they did last season. And that there would be more goal contributions from Jesus, Odegaard etc

As I said in a post this morning, Arteta wanted the power, he also takes the responsibility

But equally the owners are not absolved from blame, they clearly wanted to make sure that we didn’t spend more than we brought in. Whilst I understand the main issue was the wage bill rather than transfer spending, the consensus appears to be that we had more than enough elbow room to be ambitious.

[Niall_Quinn]

The owners are focused on expanding the stadium so they can rinse more mugs.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The owners are focused on expanding the stadium so they can rinse more mugs.

I’m assuming someone like yourself will have at one time watched The Magnificent Seven

“If God did not want me to sheer them, he would not have made them sheep”

[Mac76]

not sure about Arteta - he could coach Gyokeres into playing backward passes.

one of big concerns about Arteta, that he to an extent can curb players' attacking instincts

You can tell the difference in a game, like last night, when he's told the team to be attacking - we nearly score twice in the first five minutes - then other times it's clear they've been told to focus on possession and we end up in the horseshoe of death.

[Mac76]

To clarify, this is not my view….this is what I believe the view of Arteta and those around him had (although there is a question mark over how unified they all were, as the reasons for Edu’s departure still remain speculative)



all the signs say Edu didn't agree and he was right

[HCZ_Reborn]

all the signs say Edu didn't agree and he was right

So I’ve seen stuff that said he was specifically against the signing of Mikel Merino

What seemed less clear was whether he was against signing that particular player or signing any player in that position


Who knows…in many ways who cares. Even if the club held an inquest into this season, it probably would be less than transparent

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ah so the speculation is that Edu was also unhappy that we sold the Nigerian lad whose name escapes me, to United

But it seems to be as much that Edu was unhappy with his agent who was pushing for the move

Edit - only ethnically Nigerian, born in Denmark and represents Denmark at under 21 level

[selassie]

Absolutely, several players required to shake up the luxury some of the current crop enjoy due to the lack of competition. And just for the squad depth. We literally went into those big CL ties with half the academy on the bench. When you look at the squad depth of all the teams we are supposedly challenging, there's no comparison. I wonder how everyone else can afford the wages when we can't, especially in light of the ever increasing commercial efforts. Trouble is, it's a vicious cycle. If you aren't winning then you need to pay over the odds and pay early to keep hold of your talent. And when you bring in cover/ competition you risk players running off who don't fancy it, because they can benchwarm at far more successful clubs. I can imagine it's not easy to juggle it all - but they bring it on themselves. Just a little bit of ambition last summer and where might we be today? Every make do and mend, jam tomorrow decision has potentially many knock-on effects. Same as the momentum argument - winning is a habit and everyone likes being involved in a winning environment. And the benefits accrue from there.

Hopefully the fanbase won't settle for, "We didn't do too badly, second (fingers crossed) in the league, semis in the CL!" Hopefully they won't be able to slide that one past and make the oweners and manager feel as comfortable as some of these players are.

Injuries and a drop in form from many of our leading players has definitely played a part in the stalling of our progress this season. As has Arteta and our poor recruitment over the past year.

The make up of the squad is too defensive with a lack of quality in attacking areas, this is Arteta's squad so the blame lies with him.

We absolutely have to nail this window this summer IMO, if we don't we could quite easily fall back into the chasing pack which has appeared to happen this season.

I agree that we should not settle for second best, money has been spent and we have performed well over the past few seasons, so the expectations are to now win the big prizes. This is honestly where I am at now.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

https://youtu.be/64pJCG9C3kM?si=-VA-Fz1Jm1WHLFU-

Though their is a lot I disagree with when it comes to his conclusions, I think the analysis of tactics in both games are good and I definitely agree with the end where he identifies the weak players/positions in our team.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://youtu.be/64pJCG9C3kM?si=-VA-Fz1Jm1WHLFU-

Though their is a lot I disagree with when it comes to his conclusions, I think the analysis of tactics in both games are good and I definitely agree with the end where he identifies the weak players/positions in our team.

Yeah I don’t believe we were the better team so I think he starts from a false premise. I never felt there was ever more than a few minutes over the 180 where they weren’t in control of the tie. Plus if you go through 3-1 on aggregate, unless you’ve benefited from outrageously poor refereeing (I don’t think the refereeing was great in either game but certainly not that it made any particular difference).

[Letters]

I'd say it was fairly even, overall. First 20 minutes of the first leg we were getting a spanking but after that we got back in to it and could have scored a couple - they could have scored more too of course.
Second leg we were dominant in the first 20 minutes, after that it was more even. But the main difference, as he says, is they put the ball in the net and we didn't.
A fairly useful skill in football.
Overall we held our own. This wasn't like the Barca games back in the day when we were hanging on for dear life, or the Bayern ones where we got our arses handed to us.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I'd say it was fairly even, overall. First 20 minutes of the first leg we were getting a spanking but after that we got back in to it and could have scored a couple - they could have scored more too of course.
Second leg we were dominant in the first 20 minutes, after that it was more even. But the main difference, as he says, is they put the ball in the net and we didn't.
A fairly useful skill in football.
Overall we held our own. This wasn't like the Barca games back in the day when we were hanging on for dear life, or the Bayern ones where we got our arses handed to us.

Though I agree with you, I can't help but compare the 2 legs of tie with the previous 2 legs of the Madrid game.

On that night we also had a keeper that was on form and we didn't score with our first few chances.

However, almost at no point in the 2 legs did I feel we wouldn't score, or we'd lose, and I doubt we created as many chances in those 2 legs than we did against PSG.

So it's strange that one never felt comfortable during the games in the PSG tie. There was just something so despondent about the way the team approached both legs of the tie, especially the first leg that was pretty shocking.

It was like there was no plan at all for PSG getting an early goal, almost like Artera prepared them to win 1- nil or nothing, and once that possibility was ruled out they started playing on like Zombies and crumbled under the pressure. They obviously repeated the same mistake in the 2nd leg despite the excellent example set by Barca and Inter in the 2 legs before our game which they must have watched.

[Mac76]

It's a fair point that we pretty much HAD to score first, and I did think after we'd not done so after about 20 mins we were in trouble, having thrown all we could at them but not found the back of the net

For me the most telling part of that second game was Saka putting a couple of great crosses into the box, only for there to be nobody there for the tap-in - you could see what he thought after the second one, it was what we were all thinking - if only we had a striker...

[HCZ_Reborn]

We had a record going for about 16 months in which if we scored first we wouldn’t lose at a minimum, that ended against Bournemouth (although arguably would still be going if the Evanilson goal had been chalked off)

I tend to agree with the guy when he says, signing a striker would solve a lot of our problems but not all. The XG in both legs says less about the number of chances we created, but the kind of chances that would be expected to lead to a goal.

We don’t create enough clear cut chances in games and we don’t put away the chances we do create

The tactical game we played over two legs reduced our chances of playing into their hands but when you’re dealing with ruthless players over two legs they can score three goals from low XG chances

Signing a striker is an imperative, but I think signing an attacking midfielder is also a very high priority. Not just someone with pace and strength but the footballing brain to see a pass, to pull players out of position etc. That shouldn’t be dependent on what happens with Odegaard, we need that in any event. We need more creativity in the team

[Mac76]

Sure, it's never going to be a silver bullet but it's the most glaring absence - I think we need two strikers, a star one and a backup, plus the midfielder you talk about

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sure, it's never going to be a silver bullet but it's the most glaring absence - I think we need two strikers, a star one and a backup, plus the midfielder you talk about

Fully agreed

[Niall_Quinn]

We had a record going for about 16 months in which if we scored first we wouldn’t lose at a minimum, that ended against Bournemouth (although arguably would still be going if the Evanilson goal had been chalked off)

I tend to agree with the guy when he says, signing a striker would solve a lot of our problems but not all. The XG in both legs says less about the number of chances we created, but the kind of chances that would be expected to lead to a goal.

We don’t create enough clear cut chances in games and we don’t put away the chances we do create

The tactical game we played over two legs reduced our chances of playing into their hands but when you’re dealing with ruthless players over two legs they can score three goals from low XG chances

Signing a striker is an imperative, but I think signing an attacking midfielder is also a very high priority. Not just someone with pace and strength but the footballing brain to see a pass, to pull players out of position etc. That shouldn’t be dependent on what happens with Odegaard, we need that in any event. We need more creativity in the team

XG is just a made up thing by somebody on a laptop in his mum's basement, isn't it? I mean it's not actually real or relevant? It's just another thing the shitty pundits can fill the air with. We easily created enough chances to smash PSG. We just didn't take them. Even Saka didn't take his chances. It's actually unforgivable. It's difficult to carve out a chance against many teams, so when you do surely that's when your extra talent shines through? It'd be like Fischer finally wearing down Igor Russianbloke and when the big mistakes comes, Fischer forgets how to play chess. I can't think of another sport where the top talent is so unaccomplished, relatively speaking. Not saying I could stroll on and play - unless I was covering for Sterling - but how many times have our players shit the bed in those critical moments where the money we pay for them has to be earned? That's not a measurement of XG, that's some sort of psychological problem. I mean Saka's chipped penalty against Madrid FFS. That's just crazy. That's a moment wher you get the job done, no frills, blast it in the net. To even consider doing otherwise hints at serious problems in the squad.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sure, it's never going to be a silver bullet but it's the most glaring absence - I think we need two strikers, a star one and a backup, plus the midfielder you talk about

I'm telling you, we have a kid at the academy that could do a way better job than an Eddie or a Havertz - I can never remember his bloody name. But he's a very direct and confident kid who could play backup and we wouldn't have to eff around keeping egos pampered. Gyokeres with the shirt, the kid on rest days, it'd work.

I bet we get Sesko.

[Letters]

XG is just a made up thing by somebody on a laptop in his mum's basement, isn't it? I mean it's not actually real or relevant? It's just another thing the shitty pundits can fill the air with. We easily created enough chances to smash PSG. We just didn't take them. Even Saka didn't take his chances. It's actually unforgivable. It's difficult to carve out a chance against many teams, so when you do surely that's when your extra talent shines through? It'd be like Fischer finally wearing down Igor Russianbloke and when the big mistakes comes, Fischer forgets how to play chess. I can't think of another sport where the top talent is so unaccomplished, relatively speaking. Not saying I could stroll on and play - unless I was covering for Sterling - but how many times have our players shit the bed in those critical moments where the money we pay for them has to be earned? That's not a measurement of XG, that's some sort of psychological problem. I mean Saka's chipped penalty against Madrid FFS. That's just crazy. That's a moment wher you get the job done, no frills, blast it in the net. To even consider doing otherwise hints at serious problems in the squad.

A rare :gp: from me.
xG is bollocks - at best it's a vague indicator but nowhere near as significant as some make it out to be.
And while I'm not on board with your thesis about modern footballers being useless compared to the good old days where they had a pint at half time, I've always thought that footballers are largely incompetent compared with other sports. How can you be a professional footballer and not be able to hit the target pretty much every time? How can you not be able to deliver a corner reliably? Some of them can, but not as many as you'd expect given it's their job and they practice every day.

EDIT: When Henry was through on goal you pretty much knew it was game over for the 'keeper. I wouldn't be confident with any of this lot. And one issue highlighted in the video above is we don't create enough clear chances anyway. Multiple times on Wednesday PSG broke forward and I thought "shit, we're in trouble here". I don't think we did that to them once. It's all slow build up play, sideways, sideways, back, sideways, sideways, forward...sideways, sideways, back...FFS!

[Marc Overmars]

This season we’ve looked overcoached and excessively reliant on set pieces and physicality. Whatever creativity that was in the team has gone and we’re left with a group of players lacking in any individuality and spark. Odegaard’s lack of courage in advanced positions is perhaps the biggest factor in why our football has gone to shit.

Just hated this season and can’t wait to see the back of it. League campaign never got going, weird refereeing decisions, ridiculous injuries and shit football. Embarrassing cup exits as well to cap it off.

The CL run has to be seen as a positive and something to build on at least. Rice’s freekicks will live long in the memory but it also makes me wonder if we would have even broken the deadlock without that miracle.

[Mac76]

This season we’ve looked overcoached and excessively reliant on set pieces and physicality. Whatever creativity that was in the team has gone and we’re left with a group of players lacking in any individuality and spark. Odegaard’s lack of courage in advanced positions is perhaps the biggest factor in why our football has gone to shit.

Just hated this season and can’t wait to see the back of it. League campaign never got going, weird refereeing decisions, ridiculous injuries and shit football. Embarrassing cup exits as well to cap it off.

The CL run has to be seen as a positive and something to build on at least. Rice’s freekicks will live long in the memory but it also makes me wonder if we would have even broken the deadlock without that miracle.

Good post, agree with pretty much all of it, also

I listened to a pod yesterday where Adrian Clarke said that Arteta needs to learn in-game management, how to change things and use subs better, I totally agree, he almost always makes like-for-like changes or takes off an attacker and brings on a defemder to save a 1-0 lead, not good enough for someone who's paid millions

Or and the referee decisions weren't so much weird as blantantly biased

[Niall_Quinn]

This season we’ve looked overcoached and excessively reliant on set pieces and physicality. Whatever creativity that was in the team has gone and we’re left with a group of players lacking in any individuality and spark. Odegaard’s lack of courage in advanced positions is perhaps the biggest factor in why our football has gone to shit.

Just hated this season and can’t wait to see the back of it. League campaign never got going, weird refereeing decisions, ridiculous injuries and shit football. Embarrassing cup exits as well to cap it off.

The CL run has to be seen as a positive and something to build on at least. Rice’s freekicks will live long in the memory but it also makes me wonder if we would have even broken the deadlock without that miracle.

Hated the way the defence suddenly seemed shaky at the end. Was consoling myself with, oh well, at least the defence is sorted. The Saliba goes on holiday and Raya starts trying to pinch the 9 shirt. And Timber fell off a cliff and that one positive started drifting away to merge with all the other uncertainties. It's hard to find any progress that has been made this season. MLS, Ethan. But if Arteta applies his magic touch they'll both be tipping and tapping with the best of them by next season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/dailyafc/status/1921636554562228619?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

Peter Schmeichel is correct

[Mac76]

I've seen the Arteta interview, I don't like to use the word 'weird' as it's a bit judgemental but he certainly seems out of sorts and half-mumbling to himself, almost like a drunk

I do think after this season he needs to go for some long walks in nature and try to chill out before it all gets going again in summer - he also probably needs some counselling to get his head straight

[IBK]

Let’s face it we are in the position of a rebuild again this summer.


5 years on, £700m spent and we are almost back to square one.
Seriously!?!

No, we are not. When Arteta took over we were a shambles with CL participation a distant dream, and the idea challenging for the league laughable. We will now (most likely) finish the league in 2nd for the 3rd year running and have made the last four in the CL. Square one this ain't.

We have progressed in the CL and regressed a bit in the league this season, but IMO anyone who thinks that this team with a few judicious additions is incapable of challenging for silverware is letting the undoubted disappointment (of allowing our failure to stop Liverpool walking a league that we could have been expected to win without Citeh being their usual imperious selves) to clould their judgment hugely.

The way I see it - Arteta has proved his coaching credentials, but also shown blind spots when it comes to squad building and player loading. The latter (together with some luck) has been Slot's super power.

The reason I think most fans want to give Arteta another season (very sensible post as always, Selassie) is that neither our manager nor the club can fail to see where we have gone wrong, and must surely address that this Summer and going into next season. If not - then this project will be a bust. But we are not there yet.

[Letters]

No, we are not. When Arteta took over we were a shambles with CL participation a distant dream, and the idea challenging for the league laughable. We will now (most likely) finish the league in 2nd for the 3rd year running and have made the last four in the CL. Square one this ain't.

We have progressed in the CL and regressed a bit in the league this season, but IMO anyone who thinks that this team with a few judicious additions is incapable of challenging for silverware is letting the undoubted disappointment (of allowing our failure to stop Liverpool walking a league that we could have been expected to win without Citeh being their usual imperious selves) to clould their judgment hugely.

The way I see it - Arteta has proved his coaching credentials, but also shown blind spots when it comes to squad building and player loading. The latter (together with some luck) has been Slot's super power.

The reason I think most fans want to give Arteta another season (very sensible post as always, Selassie) is that neither our manager nor the club can fail to see where we have gone wrong, and must surely address that this Summer and going into next season. If not - then this project will be a bust. But we are not there yet.
:gp:

[Mac76]

The reason I think most fans want to give Arteta another season (very sensible post as always, Selassie) is that neither our manager nor the club can fail to see where we have gone wrong

Not entirely sure about the 'manager' bit - Arteta may see some of it (though I feel like he won't take his own share of the blame internally) but not all, not unless as i say above he takes some genuine steps to refresh his mind and outlook

[Letters]

Not entirely sure about the 'manager' bit - Arteta may see some of it (though I feel like he won't take his own share of the blame internally) but not all, not unless as i say above he takes some genuine steps to refresh his mind and outlook

Yeah. Managers do chat a lot of shit of course but the fact he said that we were the best team in the CL semi-finals despite losing both games shows a level of delusion which is...troubling.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://telegrafi.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/liverpool-arsenal-780x439.jpg

Arsenal fans on Twitter clutching their pearls over the “disrespectful” banners from Liverpool

Oh fucking get over yourselves you bunch of pansies, Arteta isn’t the Messiah. Liverpool owe us zero respect and to repeat what I said the other week, we owe them zero respect

This is what happens when you get clubs that are competing (or at least should be) for the top prizes

[Letters]

I dunno. I sort of agree with you with a side dish of you can be a bad loser and you can definitely be a bad winner.
There is such a thing as showing a bit of class. Arsenal and Liverpool aren't particularly rivals so why be pricks about it?

[Mac76]

Arsenal fans on Twitter clutching their pearls over the “disrespectful” banners from Liverpool

Oh fucking get over yourselves you bunch of pansies, Arteta isn’t the Messiah. Liverpool owe us zero respect and to repeat what I said the other week, we owe them zero respect

This is what happens when you get clubs that are competing (or at least should be) for the top prizes


I realise you hate Arteta but siding with Liverpool scum who boo a homegrown player who's helped them win multiple trophies and simply wants to expand his horizons is much more pathetic

as is scousers spending their hard-earned dole money/stolen-goods profits on crap like this - it's like spuds wanting Citeh to win last season, they're thinking more about other teams than their own

football should be about celebrating the positive - why not a banner saying 'thanks Trent for all you've done for us'?

wouldn't that be better?

[IBK]

I realise you hate Arteta but siding with Liverpool scum who boo a homegrown player who's helped them win multiple trophies and simply wants to expand his horizons is much more pathetic

as is scousers spending their hard-earned dole money/stolen-goods profits on crap like this - it's like spuds wanting Citeh to win last season, they're thinking more about other teams than their own

football should be about celebrating the positive - why not a banner saying 'thanks Trent for all you've done for us'?

wouldn't that be better?

Not sure I read HCZ's post as siding with Liverpool fans per se - as opposed to dismissing the outrage about Liverpool fans' petty banners. I think that we shouldn't care less about it. Plus Liverpool fans have done a pretty good job of showing their lack of class re TAA. I tend to agree with what Letters has said...

[HCZ_Reborn]

I realise you hate Arteta but siding with Liverpool scum who boo a homegrown player who's helped them win multiple trophies and simply wants to expand his horizons is much more pathetic

as is scousers spending their hard-earned dole money/stolen-goods profits on crap like this - it's like spuds wanting Citeh to win last season, they're thinking more about other teams than their own

football should be about celebrating the positive - why not a banner saying 'thanks Trent for all you've done for us'?

wouldn't that be better?

Can you go back to the post and check to see where I referenced Trent Alexander Arnold and made any comment about it.

I’d hate to think I’d slipped it in somewhere and forgot

Otherwise, I’d hate to think you’ve conflated two separate things in order to have an argument

[HCZ_Reborn]

Not sure I read HCZ's post as siding with Liverpool fans per se - as opposed to dismissing the outrage about Liverpool fans' petty banners. I think that we shouldn't care less about it. Plus Liverpool fans have done a pretty good job of showing their lack of class re TAA. I tend to agree with what Letters has said...

Gosh someone gets it

Yes you’re absolutely right. And yes I think booing TAA was petty and ungrateful (I’ve never much rated him to begin with so I wouldn’t be that fussed about him leaving if I was a Liverpool fan).

On one hand, we were very vocal in regards to Samir Nasri (in the start of the 2011/2012 season he played two league games for us before joining City) we were chanting “Samir you’re a cunt”. Which I think was more specifically about going to City, but there was certainly not the animosity towards Vieira or Henry when they went to Juventus and Barcelona respectively.


Liverpool fans say it’s the circumstances under which he is leaving, which he engineered. Maybe but this guy has won two league titles and a champions league with you….he really owes you fuck all.

[HCZ_Reborn]

On top of that I think Banter is part of what makes football, Liverpool and Arsenal are two clubs vying at the top…it only makes sense that their fan bases should have digs at each other. What I think about Arteta has no bearing on that view

I think there’s always a line. I would not condone for example our fans making chants about Hillsborough, because innocent people died through no fault of their own.

I feel the same about the Munich air disaster


But calling them bin dippers or chanting “sign on” is to my mind fair game

[IBK]

Not entirely sure about the 'manager' bit - Arteta may see some of it (though I feel like he won't take his own share of the blame internally) but not all, not unless as i say above he takes some genuine steps to refresh his mind and outlook

I don't think there's any basis to draw conclusions regarding Arteta accepting responsibility internally. If we make the same mistakes next season as we have done this, then there may be more validity to your view, but I think this is unlikely.

All managers make mistakes. I am not downplaying Arteta's failure to invest in our forward line or overloading his players, but in terms of system; playing style or individual decisions during matches, there isn't a manager on earth that gets it right 100% of the time. Again, we do need (I think) to acknowledge that our disappointment in how the league has gone this season can result in a skewed view of our manager's shortcomings.

Noone was arguing in the second half of last season (when we scored a record number of goals) that Arteta's system was ineffective. I suspect that had even 2 of Havertz; Saka and Jesus stayed fit, we would have been much closer to winning the league. Arteta clearly acknowledged the need for a striker in January - and we don't have any clear idea of the club dynamics that prevented us from bringing someone in. If's but's and maybe's perhaps - but these are fine margins. We can criticise our manager sure, but reaching the conclusion that he can neither see, nor address our shortcomings this season is, for me, precipitous to say the least.

One final point that I found quite interesting. Here is the EPL player list for most minutes played this season https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/dauerbrenner/wettbewerb/GB1

Aside from Raya, we don't have a single player before Saliba at 28, and our next entry is Rice, coming in at...no. 68! Suprising stuff given the prevailing view about over use of our players.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I dunno. I sort of agree with you with a side dish of you can be a bad loser and you can definitely be a bad winner.
There is such a thing as showing a bit of class. Arsenal and Liverpool aren't particularly rivals so why be pricks about it?

We are rivals. If we were rivals with City and United, it makes no sense to say we aren’t rivals with Liverpool

I think there has been a long standing respect between our two sides which goes back to the night of May 26th 1989 where our players brought bouquets of flowers to the supporters because of the almost unfathomable loss they’d gone through six weeks earlier (it was certain that people in the ground that night had either lost friends and loved ones, or knew people that had). It was the right thing to do, because in instances like this there are things more important than football.

Everton fans hate Liverpool football club but similarly I’ve seen in regards to Hillsborough they are one city (I went to an Everton game years ago and saw Trevor Hicks on stage outside Goodison park, it was a few months after the Bishop of Liverpool’s enquiry into Hillsborough) and he got total support and applause from the Everton supporting crowd.

But on match day in the derby, it’s banter and insults.

So fans calling a banner like that disrespectful seems thin skinned and speaks to me of a borderline messianic regard some of our fans hold Arteta in.

And if rival fans had made fun of Wenger even at his pomp, I wouldn’t have cared one jot

[IBK]

We are rivals. If we were rivals with City and United, it makes no sense to say we aren’t rivals with Liverpool

I think there has been a long standing respect between our two sides which goes back to the night of May 26th 1989 where our players brought bouquets of flowers to the supporters because of the almost unfathomable loss they’d gone through six weeks earlier (it was certain that people in the ground that night had either lost friends and loved ones, or knew people that had). It was the right thing to do, because in instances like this there are things more important than football.

Everton fans hate Liverpool football club but similarly I’ve seen in regards to Hillsborough they are one city (I went to an Everton game years ago and saw Trevor Hicks on stage outside Goodison park, it was a few months after the Bishop of Liverpool’s enquiry into Hillsborough) and he got total support and applause from the Everton supporting crowd.

But on match day in the derby, it’s banter and insults.

So fans calling a banner like that disrespectful seems thin skinned and speaks to me of a borderline messianic regard some of our fans hold Arteta in.

And if rival fans had made fun of Wenger even at his pomp, I wouldn’t have cared one jot

Nah - you're overreaching with this :police:

I think you are allowing your view of Arteta to colour an admittedly thin skinned response to a percived slur on our club, not one that specifically defends our manager.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Nah - you're overreaching with this :police:

I think you are allowing your view of Arteta to colour an admittedly thin skinned response to a percived slur on our club, not one that specifically defends our manager.

No because it’s not a binary

I think despite an opinion I hold about Arteta as a person which I think almost everyone here regards as obscurantist, I certainly don’t think anyone here holds a messianic view of him



But, if you look at social media in general there are those who equate being critical of Arteta with hating Arsenal (even with supporters of Arsenal). They talk about him as though he walks on water. And the word “disrespectful” comes across as “blasphemous” in that context.

I also think they don’t like the fact that it’s the truth, and it will remain the truth until Arteta wins something big

[HCZ_Reborn]

If someone says online “Have faith in Mikel” I’d think they should be psychiatrically evaluated. But that’s not because it’s Arteta, I’m instinctively repelled by the idea that one should defer doubt and misgivings and should place faith in anyone or anything for that matter.

No one is deserving of that

[Letters]

We are rivals.
We are vying for top spot at the moment so in that sense, yes. But it's not the intensity we had with Utd back in the day where the duopoly meant it all got quite nasty. And it's not a local rivalry like with Spurs - they aren't rivals at all in terms of the level of the clubs, but there's the local derby and the history there.
Most of the time with Liverpool I'm fairly indifferent to them.


I think there has been a long standing respect between our two sides which goes back to the night of May 26th 1989 where our players brought bouquets of flowers to the supporters because of the almost unfathomable loss they’d gone through six weeks earlier
Right. So why be a prick about the fact they've won the title this year. I know that football fans are, in general, bloody idiots. But going to the effort of making banners. I mean, it's not going to keep me up at night. Just seems like unnecessary twattery. I guess it's the era we're living in where everything is now about trolling and creating memes.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We are vying for top spot at the moment so in that sense, yes. But it's not the intensity we had with Utd back in the day where the duopoly meant it all got quite nasty. And it's not a local rivalry like with Spurs - they aren't rivals at all in terms of the level of the clubs, but there's the local derby and the history there.
Most of the time with Liverpool I'm fairly indifferent to them.


Right. So why be a prick about the fact they've won the title this year. I know that football fans are, in general, bloody idiots. But going to the effort of making banners. I mean, it's not going to keep me up at night. Just seems like unnecessary twattery. I guess it's the era we're living in where everything is now about trolling and creating memes.

Rightly or wrongly they are responding to the fact that a lot of our fans have said that PGMOL have handed Liverpool the title (a claim so outlandish that even I wouldn’t make).

Also a rivalry doesn’t need to be a duopoly for two sets of fans to get at each other. Liverpool were going for the title last season, I didn’t think they would this season because I think Klopp got more out of those players than they were capable of. But I didn’t account for Salah having a god mode season or Arsenal and City both having trouble.

That said whilst I think they won’t retain the title, I think they will challenge to retain it, therefore in going for what we are going for…it makes them rivals.

And digging at us, in a way that’s only nasty if you’ve stopped worshipping God and started worshipping a 43 year old Basque Spaniard….is part of that.

In the recent past, both clubs have rarely challenged at the same time…therefore we want to think that relations between the fan bases can only ever be cordial. I’m not advocating for us kicking the shit out of each other, but a bit of mutual abuse is good for the game imo

[Marc Overmars]

Social media has created all these faux rivalries in the name of memes, trolling and banter. It’s all about point scoring and petty online bragging rights.

[IBK]

No because it’s not a binary

I think despite an opinion I hold about Arteta as a person which I think almost everyone here regards as obscurantist, I certainly don’t think anyone here holds a messianic view of him



But, if you look at social media in general there are those who equate being critical of Arteta with hating Arsenal (even with supporters of Arsenal). They talk about him as though he walks on water. And the word “disrespectful” comes across as “blasphemous” in that context.

I also think they don’t like the fact that it’s the truth, and it will remain the truth until Arteta wins something big

Honestly, I doubt seriously that the reaction to the Liverpool fans equates to those reacting holding a messianistic view of Arteta. It's far more likely to be a general reaction to a perceived slur on our club.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The thing is, if i were a Liverpool fan would I make the effort to make such a banner? No because even without the responsibility of children I’ve got better ways to spend my time (and that includes wasting my time here :lol:)

I don’t even disagree with your claim that it’s Twattery.

But Twattery is fair game, and more so I don’t want Liverpool fans to like us or our club. I would hope very much that by this time next season that they absolutely hate us for thwarting their ambitions

[HCZ_Reborn]

Honestly, I doubt seriously that the reaction to the Liverpool fans equates to those reacting holding a messianistic view of Arteta. It's far more likely to be a general reaction to a perceived slur on our club.

I think for many fans you’re absolutely right

For others it’s like how people respond when you attack their favourite politician (Farage, Corbyn, Trump etc) where by attacking the person they’ve made a tin god out of, you’re attacking them

[HCZ_Reborn]

Social media has created all these faux rivalries in the name of memes, trolling and banter. It’s all about point scoring and petty online bragging rights.

You’re not wrong

[IBK]

The thing is, if i were a Liverpool fan would I make the effort to make such a banner? No because even without the responsibility of children I’ve got better ways to spend my time (and that includes wasting my time here :lol:)

I don’t even disagree with your claim that it’s Twattery.

But Twattery is fair game, and more so I don’t want Liverpool fans to like us or our club. I would hope very much that by this time next season that they absolutely hate us for thwarting their ambitions

This. It's a sign of the times that people get so hot under the collar (usually online) at percieved slights. Best way to react to football trolling is to beat teams on the pitch.

[Mac76]

Can you go back to the post and check to see where I referenced Trent Alexander Arnold and made any comment about it.

I’d hate to think I’d slipped it in somewhere and forgot

Otherwise, I’d hate to think you’ve conflated two separate things in order to have an argument

Well as usual you're diverting, but my point was ofc you were taking the side of Liverpool fans, whose side souldn't be taken by other fans, and by mentioning their disgraceful behaviour re TAA I was illustrating why (but you know all that)

where you say 'Arteta isn’t the Messiah' it gives away your motivation for choosing to pro-actively - and very heavily - put down Arsenal fans when there's a million other things you could post about

[Mac76]

I think you are allowing your view of Arteta to colour an admittedly thin skinned response to a percived slur on our club, not one that specifically defends our manager.

Which is exactly my point

[Mac76]

Rightly or wrongly they are responding to the fact that a lot of our fans have said that PGMOL have handed Liverpool the title (a claim so outlandish that even I wouldn’t make).


It's not far off though, there's a lot of cause and effect involved

the main reasons we didn't win the title are:

- Disgraceful refereeing decisions, only made against us and no other club

- injuries, which due to the above were partly down to having to play with ten men and then not being rotated enough because of suspensions etc

- Arteta's cautious tactics (e.g. Brighton at home, Citeh away, arguably even Liverpool on Sunday) losing us points (though again after our being reduced to 10 by mostly bad decisions - not Liverpool though)

- Arteta failing to prioritise a striker last summer (which wouldn't have been so damaging if not for the injuries, which again were in part caused by the decisions)

- Arteta failing to prioritise a striker in January (ditto)

- Arteta not making full use of his squad (ditto)

So the bad decisions fed into our being fundamentatlly weak due to Arteta's leaving us vulnerable - in other words he took chances and was found out - but if we don't get any of those silly cards he might not have been found out, or not to the same extent

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's not far off though, there's a lot of cause and effect involved

the main reasons we didn't win the title are:

- Disgraceful refereeing decisions, only made against us and no other club

- injuries, which due to the above were partly down to having to play with ten men and then not being rotated enough because of suspensions etc

- Arteta's cautious tactics (e.g. Brighton at home, Citeh away, arguably even Liverpool on Sunday) losing us points (though again after our being reduced to 10 by mostly bad decisions - not Liverpool though)

- Arteta failing to prioritise a striker last summer (which wouldn't have been so damaging if not for the injuries, which again were in part caused by the decisions)

- Arteta failing to prioritise a striker in January (ditto)

- Arteta not making full use of his squad (ditto)

So the bad decisions fed into our being fundamentatlly weak due to Arteta's leaving us vulnerable - in other words he took chances and was found out - but if we don't get any of those silly cards he might not have been found out, or not to the same extent

So imagine you’re saying all that to a Liverpool fan, and what they are hearing is that you think that it’s more that Arsenal were unfairly treated than Liverpool deserved to win the title. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying but that’s how it’s understood…that quite possibly might make you feel resentment, and we aren’t all as philosophical as Wenger when Ferguson said that United were the best team in a footballing sense.


Some may brush it off, so might think “get fucked you bunch of sore losers”

[Mac76]

I suspect even without all the decisions we'd probably have just been painfully short of winning, but all I'm saying is, if those decisions had happened in such a concentrated way to any other team (except possibly spuds :D) I'd be calling it out and saying it was a justfied thing to mention

Different teams get treated differently and fans, managers and players need to start telling like it is or the whole game just gets worse

[HCZ_Reborn]

I suspect even without all the decisions we'd probably have just been painfully short of winning, but all I'm saying is, if those decisions had happened in such a concentrated way to any other team (except possibly spuds :D) I'd be calling it out and saying it was a justfied thing to mention

Different teams get treated differently and fans, managers and players need to start telling like it is or the whole game just gets worse

I don’t disagree with any of that

But equally I can see how that might piss off fans who feel like they are not getting the deserved recognition for winning the title

Now of course I’m not going to give them recognition anymore than I would City. Fuck them


But equally I don’t have any problem when they equally say of us and our fans….Fuck them


And as long as it doesn’t descend into violence or singing about genuine tragedy….its all fair game

[HCZ_Reborn]

I should take this time to commend our resident Liverpool fan who shows far more patience with my invectives against Liverpool than I would if the roles were reversed.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I should take this time to commend our resident Liverpool fan who shows far more patience with my invectives against Liverpool than I would if the roles were reversed.

:lol:

As it happens, I agree wholeheartedly with your summary a couple of posts up; so long as it doesn't cross a [I'd say for 99% of people a fairly obvious] line then say and do what you like. I couldn't care less.

[IBK]

Feeling a bit philosophical today, so I wanted to make a point about how when we criticise football managers for their decisions/results, too many football fans ignore the fine margins and sheer randomness that makes football as popular as it is.

This is a reflection of a general mindset in today's 'Western' world, that (unlike past or other cultures) diminishes the effect of sheer chance (some might call it fate), and believes that everything is and should be within our control.

So when looking at the obvious mistakes that Areteta has made - we judge him from a perspective of perfection - if players had been used less, then injuries would not have occured. If a striker signing had been made in January, then we would have won the league. If we had been better prepared in the first tie against PSG, we would not have conceded the first goal etc. All of these criticisms are justified - or at least are a valid perspective on one level. But IMHO for a balanced view we have to accept that sometimes luck doesn't go our way, and you cannot eliminate this factor. The manager's job is to try to mitigate against variable factors. A big squad offers protection against injuries. Coaching and preparation gives the best chance of beating the opposition. A system of playing can increase the chance of scoring, or preventing goals. But none of these are guarantees of success.

Take our injuries this season. We can look at over use of players, but I have posted the EPL most minutes of players and we do not feature particularly highly in these. The reality is that there is too much football and unrealistic demands on top players full stop. I don't think that the sheer extent of our injuries can be blamed solely on Arteta, or predictable to put it another way. This season has surely been an outlier for us in this regard, just as last season saw far more luck go our way - like it did for Liverpool this season. Neither can the referreing decisions that almost certainly cost us points (to be clear my view is that unltimately poor decisions are something that we have to accept - I don't want to use this as an excuse, simply an example of something that to a large degree is impossible to control). It sounds moany to point out that we went out of the CL semi to a goal that deflected off Saliba and another one went in off the post (luck rather than skill or planning in those moments) - but again these are factors that on another day would not have gone PSG's way.

I guess what I am saying is that I wish there was less absolutism when it comes to criticising our manager, and that our valid criticisms and the conclusions that follow these were not so categorical.