Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations.

[LDG]

Silver from Dempsey in the sea :bow:

[LDG]

Come on Kenny!!!

[LDG]

Fark in hell.

:lol:

[Goonermerree]

You're either on the wrong thread, or you want to sign a cyclist. OR, you're drunk!!!

[Niall_Quinn]

At last - some activity in an Arsenal transfer thread.

[LDG]

Skinner :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

You're either on the wrong thread, or you want to sign a cyclist. OR, you're drunk!!!

The drunk bit is more of an AND than an OR

[LDG]

You're either on the wrong thread, or you want to sign a cyclist. OR, you're drunk!!!

:haha:

Oops :(

:getcoat:

All of the above

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's the answer to a different question.

What do you think about the scousers signing your boy mane?

My boy? I don't like what you're alluding to there squire

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Come on Kenny!!!

Yeah sign da ting!

[Kano]

My boy? I don't like what you're alluding to there squire

hahahaha gay homo fag jokz

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I just think I could do better than Sado Mane

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10533989/arsene-wenger-says-the-days-of-200m-transfer-fees-are-not-long-away

AW playing look over there and taking the line that signings aren't always the solution because in fact he has failed to sign the players he wants.

No one cares what you think about the transfer activity of other clubs, you clearly have stated you want a defender and a striker and now you are back peddling because you can't get the Goldilocks deal.

[Munchies]

AFCAMDEN saying we've scouted Isco heavily this Summer and Mahrez has always been on our radar. A player would have to leave before either comes in.

Also says we're in for a 'madness' superstar

https://twitter.com/AFCAMDEN/with_replies

:coffee:

[KSE Comedy Club]

AFCAMDEN saying we've scouted Isco heavily this Summer and Mahrez has always been on our radar. A player would have to leave before either comes in.

Also says we're in for a 'madness' superstar

https://twitter.com/AFCAMDEN/with_replies

:coffee:
Suggs ??

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

This madness stuff that keeps cropping up....anyone really think it will happen?

If Griezmann/Lewandowski came in I think the entire fan base would have nose bleed from the excitement.

[Kano]

Nah it's just a good way to keep people reading his shite on Twatter.

[AFC Leveller]

Wish Wenger would shut the fuck up and sign a striker and a CB.

[Goonermerree]

I partly listened to his pre season interview when he was asked if they could win the league and why. He said some twaddle about our stability, euphemism for , not signing any new bloody payers.

[alexander]

I do like the way he bangs on about price/quality/stability in the media. The media dont give a shit, the media are a massive hype machine, they want BIG NAMES! BIG MONEY! BIG SUCCESS! MASSIVE FAILURES! its what they thrive on. They dont thrive on stories of old man spends a tiny amount on an unknown player.
Wenger is still banging his own drum but less and less people are listening or care, they are just moving along in the (now mental) world of football, doing what everyone else is doing to try and compete.

[Niall_Quinn]

I do like the way he bangs on about price/quality/stability in the media. The media dont give a shit, the media are a massive hype machine, they want BIG NAMES! BIG MONEY! BIG SUCCESS! MASSIVE FAILURES! its what they thrive on. They dont thrive on stories of old man spends a tiny amount on an unknown player.
Wenger is still banging his own drum but less and less people are listening or care, they are just moving along in the (now mental) world of football, doing what everyone else is doing to try and compete.

Not sure if you are complimenting or condemning Wenger. I see his as Icarus, banging on at British Airways about their unnecessary expenditure. Just before he does his latest cliff jump.

[alexander]

Not sure if you are complimenting or condemning Wenger. I see his as Icarus, banging on at British Airways about their unnecessary expenditure. Just before he does his latest cliff jump.

Sorry, condemning him. He is a record stuck on repeat, that nobody is listening too anymore.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The thing is you have to look at it in its timing, we are probably not going to sign a striker and Wenger appears to be baulking over a fee for Mustafi. So it's a ready made excuse, I've not strengthened the squad but look at this ridiculous money here, there and everywhere.
The Pogba reference a few weeks earlier is oft misquoted as he said it's a crazy fee unless you can afford it, which was just a general reflection on how the money in football makes the crazy seem reasonable.
Today it's a "I haven't fucked up I'm just a victim of circumstance"

[Niall_Quinn]

The thing is you have to look at it in its timing, we are probably not going to sign a striker and Wenger appears to be baulking over a fee for Mustafi. So it's a ready made excuse, I've not strengthened the squad but look at this ridiculous money here, there and everywhere.
The Pogba reference a few weeks earlier is oft misquoted as he said it's a crazy fee unless you can afford it, which was just a general reflection on how the money in football makes the crazy seem reasonable.
Today it's a "I haven't fucked up I'm just a victim of circumstance"

Alexander is right. The man's talking to himself now. I just laugh when he opens his mouth. It used to be upsetting that he's made a laughing stock of the club but it has gone on for so long now that even that's unremarkable. The only thing of value that Wenger could say is goodbye.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Alexander is right. The man's talking to himself now. I just laugh when he opens his mouth. It used to be upsetting that he's made a laughing stock of the club but it has gone on for so long now that even that's unremarkable. The only thing of value that Wenger could say is goodbye.

Let's be fair, what difference does it actually make if Wenger is manager or not. This idea that any manager will any kind of ambition would want to come here. Wenger is detached from reality, he is in his own little bubble where he makes the rules and answers to no one. No one is going to want to assume the responsibilities Wenger assumes because he is too hubristic to realise he can't, and the board aren't going to want to assume any extra footballing responsibility themselves because they don't care about football.
The difference between Wenger and a new manager, is that Wenger chooses not to spend money so no one has to tell him he can't.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Continuously not buying players in positions you need them is tantamount to saying 'we don't have the money to compete for the obvious top players of class....and we don't have the scouting nous or expertise to sign the un-obvious players of top quality'.

I want a manager who can.

[Özim]

LeClown at it again, seriously this guy needs his head read, moreover why don't Arsenal tell him to shut the f*ck up?


“If you want to make everybody happy, then just buy 20 new players and everybody is full of hope until the first game starts and then we’re back to reality,” Wenger says coolly

He resists the idea that new personnel are needed for the sake of shaking things up and bringing a freshness to a squad. “Vibrancy doesn’t make you win games,” he says. “What makes you win games is the quality of the performance and the quality of your football. You have to focus just on that. It is very difficult in the modern game. There is always demand for new – but new is just new. After six months it’s not new anymore. If every time you don’t win you throw everything out, it is not the best way to win.”

Easily-found guaranteed brilliance doesn’t fall off trees, so he is pinning his hopes on the players he knows growing and finding more to give. “You come in and you feel you can improve as a player, you feel you can win things together, you can share things with people who live inside the club,” he says. “What is new makes news. But apart from that it makes noise. But the noise is not necessarily always quality.”

You can only hope this guy gets what's coming to him and is embarassed and made to look like the delusional man he is, sure it won't be great for us this season, but does it really matter when we know we won't compete.

Interest in our season is certainly lacking, thanks to his lack of ability as a manager. He's talked about stability recently, but all that does it protect his position of course, he wants stability as the guy doesn't want to be out on his ear as he should be, time and time again he fails and time and time again he fails to acknowledge the problems.

If Mustafi doesn't happen incidentally, we're being linked with that Barca reject who is 32 and can't defend, definitely a Wenger type signing so wouldn't surprise me.

[Penguin]

Giroud's been our main striker for four years. 'New is just new for 6 months' :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

I understand his sentiment but no one, absolutely no one is telling him to buy for the sake of it. That's what he never has and never will understand.

Someone needs to cart him off to the loony bin.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I understand his sentiment but no one, absolutely no one is telling him to buy for the sake of it. That's what he never has and never will understand.

Someone needs to cart him off to the loony bin.

yes they are, that's exactly what we are all doing, by asking him to identify key areas in the squad that need strengthening and spend the money the market demands for those players rather than imposing his own ideas of what a player is worth we are telling him to buy for the sake of it.

[Globalgunner]

Today`s debacle will only ensure that Valencia play hardball over the Mustafi price. Le Clown has shot himself in the foot again. Most likely he will double down and refuse to pay.

[Goonermerree]

Inter Milan are looking to sign Alexis Sanchez with a shock £69m move after the forward failed to sign a new contract with the Gunners, reports the Sun. From Sky Transfer

Please tell me not to take any notice of the Sun cos it's rubbish and that Sanchez would not leave to go to Milan

[Kano]

Inter Milan :lol:

I remember them :lol:

[Munchies]

ArsenalHorse said the potential signing has pulled out at the last moment

:haha:

Yes there was a scheduled arrival, yes a medical was booked. Player has pulled out. Transfer cancelled. That is all that needs to be said. #Arsenal

https://twitter.com/AFCArsenalHorse

[Niall_Quinn]

Doesn't matter. Whoever it was he was too expensive and didn't have as much qualiteeee as we already have.

[Goonermerree]

Whoever it was probably saw us play yesterday.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

ArsenalHorse said the potential signing has pulled out at the last moment

:haha:

Yes there was a scheduled arrival, yes a medical was booked. Player has pulled out. Transfer cancelled. That is all that needs to be said. #Arsenal

https://twitter.com/AFCArsenalHorse

So someone comes out with information of a player signing for us without being able to name who it was even now the fictitious transfer has been cancelled

Still though says something for the club when even imaginary transfers don't go through.

[Özim]

Not sure why we even bother with a transfer thread anymore, it's the biggest disappointment and anti-climax, we're mere voyeurs wtching other clubs sign players we'd like to sign.

[Marc Overmars]

Bolasie signs for Everton. Fee could be up to £28m. :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

So someone comes out with information of a player signing for us without being able to name who it was even now the fictitious transfer has been cancelled

Still though says something for the club when even imaginary transfers don't go through.

We can buy 20 new imaginary players to make everyone happy. When the season begins you will still have the same reality.

[Munchies]

@bbcsport_david
Price the issue. Arsenal want to hold back funds for possible striker signing. #AFC transfer budget factors in fee, salary, agent commission

Arsenal yet to agree fee for Mustafi. #AFC considering Omer Toprak & Simon Kjaer as alternatives but Mustafi remains priority & keen to join

https://twitter.com/bbcsport_david/with_replies

Sell some fucking players FFS. Spend some fucking money.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

We'll happily give dross like Theo 120k a week and give unnecessary bloated contracts to our youth players based on nothing but we can't find the funds to sign a fucking competent defender?

[Kano]

We'll happily give dross like Theo 120k a week and give unnecessary bloated contracts to our youth players based on nothing but we can't find the funds to sign a fucking competent defender?

Every transfer expenditure is split across the contract anyway in accounting terms. That is how clubs gauge their player costs. See player amortisation. No huge outlay happens immediately so that sounds like media garbage to me. For example, £50m player on a five year contract would go down as £10m a season plus wages/sign on fee/bonuses etc

[Munchies]

How the hell is budget an issue with all the PL money now?

Sign some fucking players you useless cunts

[Kano]

How the hell is budget an issue with all the PL money now?

Sign some fucking players you useless cunts

It isn't. More likely media filler.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Reports in Spain saying City have signed Bravo from Barcelona (for around €25m I think).

Hart :wave:

[Niall_Quinn]

Reports in Spain saying City have signed Bravo from Barcelona (for around €25m I think).

Hart :wave:

Took them ages to get that one done. Slow coaches. What was it, a whole day?

[Niall_Quinn]

But it's pretty illustrative. A manager who has the upper hand over the pigshit British media immediately slays one of their sacred cows because he's got a job to do and no time to pander. So off you pop Joe Hart, a keeper that has been kept at the top by Martin Samuel. Much like a fat bald bastard diving cheating useless fuck I could mention.

[LDG]

Reports in Spain saying City have signed Bravo from Barcelona (for around €25m I think).

Hart :wave:

Cue "Wenger snaps up Hart"

It would be just like him. Sign a reject in position that isn't priority

[AFC Leveller]

I don't understand how we can't afford a 25m/30m player but can afford to waste millions on dross like Walcott, Gibbs, Sanogo etc!!!

We overpay the manager and most of the players, it is unbelievable how much the club mismanage situations.

[LDG]

Laura Trott :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

Laura Trott :bow:

Have we signed her?

[LDG]

Oh fuck. Not again.

Not even drunk this time.

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh fuck. Not again.

Not even drunk this time.

So we haven't signed her then?

WENGER OUT!

[Gooner23]

The Olympics is miles better than football anyway. Going to be lost when it finishes next weekend.

[Kano]

Laura Trott :bow:

:lol:

[Ralpheroo72]

Gazidis tells the world we are sitting on a pot of cash, we bd for players, but wont pay what the going rate is

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3742321/Arsenal-s-Shkodran-Mustafi-bid-hits-trouble-Gunners-reluctant-meet-Valencia-s-30m-valuation.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Other clubs must dread getting a bid from us, we must be like that annoying uncle that comes round for dinner, you just go through the motions, and hope the cunt leaves quickly

[Marc Overmars]

£30m does seem excessive but if he really wants Mustafi I don't think he can afford to dick around really. What is a £10m difference in valuation to us? It's probably everything to Valencia.

Just pay up and get the fucker in.

[Goonermerree]

Have we singed anyone decent yet? I'll answer my own question and say 'NO'. Depressing!

[Power n Glory]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10538102/arsenal-consider-omer-toprak-and-simon-kjaer-in-hunt-for-centre-back-sky-sources

More speculation.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10538102/arsenal-consider-omer-toprak-and-simon-kjaer-in-hunt-for-centre-back-sky-sources

More speculation.

Yeah I saw that yesterday. Basically the guy will fish wherever he thinks he can get the cheapest price. It's all about the price, not what the team needs, not what will improve us. He's a bare faced liar when he talks about quality. Price is the number one, and in many cases only, consideration. That's why we end up with Chamakhs and Sanogos and Girouds.

Well, you know, maybe with a bit of improvement (or a miracle in some cases) this player will really do the business, maybe he won't be shit, maybe he can do a job, maybe he's one for the future (code for us chucking him in at the deep end today), maybe, maybe, but for sure he's cheap so fuck it, they want transfers? He'll do (but let's haggle anyway).

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

that's been there since last night, David Ornstein alluded to both players as well.

I don't know much about Omer Toprak although have always rated Simon Kjer, however it does seem like we are trying to play the agree to our valuation or we will take our business elsewhere strategy which i can't see will work.

[Niall_Quinn]

that's been there since last night, David Ornstein alluded to both players as well.

I don't know much about Omer Toprak although have always rated Simon Kjer, however it does seem like we are trying to play the agree to our valuation or we will take our business elsewhere strategy which i can't see will work.

And it's definitely a great idea to be doing this so late in the day. Selling clubs will never guess we are desperate. It's not like they'll all be waiting with wheelbarrows for us to arrive in full on panic mode.

What a fuck up.

As usual.

[Özim]

Yeah I saw that yesterday. Basically the guy will fish wherever he thinks he can get the cheapest price. It's all about the price, not what the team needs, not what will improve us. He's a bare faced liar when he talks about quality. Price is the number one, and in many cases only, consideration. That's why we end up with Chamakhs and Sanogos and Girouds.

Well, you know, maybe with a bit of improvement (or a miracle in some cases) this player will really do the business, maybe he won't be shit, maybe he can do a job, maybe he's one for the future (code for us chucking him in at the deep end today), maybe, maybe, but for sure he's cheap so fuck it, they want transfers? He'll do (but let's haggle anyway).

He's the cheapest in the business, it's never about quality at all and all about price as you say, he signs sub-standard players despite his claim he only looks for quality.

[Özim]

And it's definitely a great idea to be doing this so late in the day. Selling clubs will never guess we are desperate. It's not like they'll all be waiting with wheelbarrows for us to arrive in full on panic mode.

What a fuck up.

As usual.

Not blessed with common sense either, prices now are bound to be higher and anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that.

[Goonermerree]

We should be targeting layers who can leave their club on a free, at least we won't have to worry about paying too much then!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And it's definitely a great idea to be doing this so late in the day. Selling clubs will never guess we are desperate. It's not like they'll all be waiting with wheelbarrows for us to arrive in full on panic mode.

What a fuck up.

As usual.

Indeed, i think we are trying to do what we did with Malaga over Cazorla....the vulture approach. We don't want to pay Valencia the right money for Mustafi because we don't think we need to because they are in financial lumber. They appear on balance though to be more keen on keeping Mustafi than cashing out and that's why they want their valuation met, and in fact have offered us Aymen Abdennour.

[Özim]

In transfer market terms, Arsenal are the scum of the earth, trying to force clubs to sell cheaply because they need the money, trying to activate apparent release clause with extra £1 bids, it's easy to see why clubs turn round and get offended and tell us where to go.

The morally superior club morally inferior in every way ironically.

[Niall_Quinn]

Indeed, i think we are trying to do what we did with Malaga over Cazorla....the vulture approach. We don't want to pay Valencia the right money for Mustafi because we don't think we need to because they are in financial lumber. They appear on balance though to be more keen on keeping Mustafi than cashing out and that's why they want their valuation met, and in fact have offered us Aymen Abdennour.

It would be fitting for us to have a defender called Aymen.

[Niall_Quinn]

We should be targeting layers who can leave their club on a free, at least we won't have to worry about paying too much then!

You mean get Flamini back? Play him at CB?

Please don't even whisper that in case a certain fellow hears you.

[Goonermerree]

You mean get Flamini back? Play him at CB?

Please don't even whisper that in case a certain fellow hears you.

Any player who comes on a free will be right up Wenger's street. It will take away the heart break he feels when he spends his money, I mean the club's money. (Even Wenger wouldn't get away with bringing Flamini back!)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In transfer market terms, Arsenal are the scum of the earth, trying to force clubs to sell cheaply because they need the money, trying to activate apparent release clause with extra £1 bids, it's easy to see why clubs turn round and get offended and tell us where to go.

The morally superior club morally inferior in every way ironically.

Really?.....do you really take a moral objection to us doing that. I personally don't care if we prey on other clubs for their players if that club can't sustain itself financially that's the way of the world. My objection is shrugging their shoulders and walking away when that tactic doesn't bear fruit.
Even if a club's new owner is a asset stripping venture captalist, i'm quite happy for us to take advantage of that and get decent players for a bargain....after all why not.

If when that option is not available, we sit on money we can afford to spend....that's the problem

[Goonermerree]

Lol, we're being linked with everyone this morning.

[Özim]

Really?.....do you really take a moral objection to us doing that. I personally don't care if we prey on other clubs for their players if that club can't sustain itself financially that's the way of the world. My objection is shrugging their shoulders and walking away when that tactic doesn't bear fruit.
Even if a club's new owner is a asset stripping venture captalist, i'm quite happy for us to take advantage of that and get decent players for a bargain....after all why not.

If when that option is not available, we sit on money we can afford to spend....that's the problem

Yes I do to some extent when we always refuse to pay the market rate and prey like vultures on clubs with no money and pay them under market value for their players, those clubs need the money to stay afloat as well and clubs going bust isn't good for football.

It's morally wrong IMO to behave that way, we're loaded and don't need to behave that way, no other club does, scummy behaviour IMO.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ridiculous argument, that's a bit like saying to someone because they have a fair amount of money they shouldn't go to a clearance sale at a shop which is closing and pick up bargains.....utter nonsense.

If we can get a bargain and get a great player from it, there is absolutely no reason to object to it. Why pay 50million for a player, if you can get a player of exactly the same standard for half the price....how much money you have is irrelevant

That we decide to do nothing if we can't get a bargain is the objectionable point.

[Power n Glory]

Yes I do to some extent when we always refuse to pay the market rate and prey like vultures on clubs with no money and pay them under market value for their players, those clubs need the money to stay afloat as well and clubs going bust isn't good for football.

It's morally wrong IMO to behave that way, we're loaded and don't need to behave that way, no other club does, scummy behaviour IMO.

That's not so much of a big deal. The real dodgy behavior was snapping up kids from other academies and getting them to sign professional contracts with us before they sign for the clubs that developed them. I can see why UEFA put a stop to. UEFA!!! :lol:

[Özim]

Ridiculous argument, that's a bit like saying to someone because they have a fair amount of money they shouldn't go to a clearance sale at a shop which is closing and pick up bargains.....utter nonsense.

If we can get a bargain and get a great player from it, there is absolutely no reason to object to it. Why pay 50million for a player, if you can get a player of exactly the same standard for half the price....how much money you have is irrelevant

That we decide to do nothing if we can't get a bargain is the objectionable point.

Not the same at all, a clearance sale isn't a hard up club. Luckily for football most of these clubs tell us where to go, bad for us fans of course but what can you do.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's not so much of a big deal. The real dodgy behavior was snapping up kids from other academies and getting them to sign professional contracts with us before they sign for the clubs that developed them. I can see why UEFA put a stop to. UEFA!!! :lol:

Meh exploiting a loophole

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not the same at all, a clearance sale isn't a hard up club. Luckily for football most of these clubs tell us where to go, bad for us fans of course but what can you do.

It's exactly the same, a lot of clubs engage to an extent in clearance sales to free up cash that they need because they haven't run their club particularly well.

If the clubs tell us where to go, that's entirely up to them. But if they are prepared to sell because they need to (i.e Cazorla with Malaga) are we meant to look elsewhere and potentially pay 20million more because of some bizarre notion of morality?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Let's be clear on this, we only actually care that the club is tight because it's having a detrimental effect on our squad building and it's costing us the ability to compete for the top prizes....and that's the only reason why we should care.

The parsimonious approach is not working for us, it's as simple as that.

[Bumble]

Ridiculous argument, that's a bit like saying to someone because they have a fair amount of money they shouldn't go to a clearance sale at a shop which is closing and pick up bargains.....utter nonsense.

If we can get a bargain and get a great player from it, there is absolutely no reason to object to it. Why pay 50million for a player, if you can get a player of exactly the same standard for half the price....how much money you have is irrelevant

That we decide to do nothing if we can't get a bargain is the objectionable point.
I agree.... surely if a club is so hard up for cash then they would rather have £10m and no player than nothing and an unhappy player. As the £10m could pay players wages or develop the academy.

This is the most bizarre argument saying basically we should pay basically what the club wants at first contact.

Zim must be an estate agents dream refusing to pay below asking price due to some moral compass.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I agree.... surely if a club is so hard up for cash then they would rather have £10m and no player than nothing and an unhappy player. As the £10m could pay players wages or develop the academy.

This is the most bizarre argument saying basically we should pay basically what the club wants at first contact.

Zim must be an estate agents dream refusing to pay below asking price due to some moral compass.

Zim is capable of making good and salient points, but he gets too caught up in his hatred for the current way the club is run that he always feels a need to be 100% opposed to everything it does.

The Club and the Manager get more wrong than they get right, but you argue yourself into a cul de sac if you take a contrarian view and decide that everything they do you are morally, philosophically opposed to etc.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I get where Zim is coming from to an extent.

We have spent 10 years sniffing round the bargain bins for 70% of our 'superstar's' and mostly they have failed to meet the standard required.

We are once again at a point where a club is asking for £30m for a decent defender we desperately need. But once again we are haggling on a price and looking at lesser quality players because they are cheaper. We should just pay up and get on with it when there is only two weeks left of the window. If we had been haggling at the start then fair enough but as usual we have left it too late and been embarrassed - again.

No time for ever failing principals now, just pay the fucking money and have done with it!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I get where Zim is coming from to an extent.

We have spent 10 years sniffing round the bargain bins for 70% of our 'superstar's' and mostly they have failed to meet the standard required.

We are once again at a point where a club is asking for £30m for a decent defender we desperately need. But once again we are haggling on a price and looking at lesser quality players because they are cheaper. We should just pay up and get on with it when there is only two weeks left of the window. If we had been haggling at the start then fair enough but as usual we have left it too late and been embarrassed - again.

No time for ever failing principals now, just pay the flicking money and have done with it!

That's not the point being made though, the point being made is that if a club is in dire financial straits or needs to free up funds we should at least look to take advantage of that if they have a player that can improve us......i don't think it should be our only option and all too often it is....but to suggest there is something morally reprehensible about it is patently absurd and i think even Zim knows that.

[Bumble]

Zim is capable of making good and salient points, but he gets too caught up in his hatred for the current way the club is run that he always feels a need to be 100% opposed to everything it does.

The Club and the Manager get more wrong than they get right, but you argue yourself into a cul de sac if you take a contrarian view and decide that everything they do you are morally, philosophically opposed to etc.
I think that is the problem every comment is negative and any good points are lost.

[KSE Comedy Club]

That's not the point being made though, the point being made is that if a club is in dire financial straits or needs to free up funds we should at least look to take advantage of that if they have a player that can improve us......i don't think it should be our only option and all too often it is....but to suggest there is something morally reprehensible about it is patently absurd and i think even Zim knows that.yes I see.

I must have missed some posts and replied without full knowledge then :lol:

I agree, I have no problem with exploiting financial weakness for a good player, but I do have a problem with not going the other way sometimes and paying the asking price for what we need.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

yes I see.

I must have missed some posts and replied without full knowledge then :lol:

I agree, I have no problem with exploiting financial weakness for a good player, but I do have a problem with not going the other way sometimes and paying the asking price for what we need.

Which is exactly the same position I hold and I suspect most Arsenal fans hold

[Özim]

This is the most bizarre argument saying basically we should pay basically what the club wants at first contact.

Is it though, look at how our plan has worked out so far, we've tried to cheap underhand bids to no avail, clubs aren't stupid they know we're loaded, you'd have to be a fool to sell at a knockdown price.

Who is to say the player is unhappy, he wasn't for sale in the 1st place, I'm sure his club are happy to keep hold of him until they get the money they want and why not.

[Özim]

That's not the point being made though, the point being made is that if a club is in dire financial straits or needs to free up funds we should at least look to take advantage of that if they have a player that can improve us......i don't think it should be our only option and all too often it is....but to suggest there is something morally reprehensible about it is patently absurd and i think even Zim knows that.

My point is that we just won't pay the market rate and then because clubs won't accept the market rate we go to clubs with no money to see if we can screw them over because they have no choice, doesn't always work mind but that's the gist of it. We're as cheap as them come and will do anything to not pay the going rate, it's embarassing and you don't see any other club behave this way.

[Özim]

I think that is the problem every comment is negative and any good points are lost.

It's negative because this club is a bag o sh*te at the moment thanks to Wenger and co, they're ruining all the good things about this club with the way they do things.

[Özim]

Meh exploiting a loophole

Sums us up, it's what we do best.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

My point is that we just won't pay the market rate and then because clubs won't accept the market rate we go to clubs with no money to see if we can screw them over because they have no choice, doesn't always work mind but that's the gist of it. We're as cheap as them come and will do anything to not pay the going rate, it's embarassing and you don't see any other club behave this way.

But again that's not a moral objection, and as i've stated yes it is frustrating that we give up on signing players if we can't get a bargain. But going to clubs and turning their misfortune to our advantage, if the player is on their books is worth getting than i think why not?.

Valencia aren't going to be low balled, and fair play to them......but it's ridiculous to state we shouldn't be trying it in the first place.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sums us up, it's what we do best.

This is what i mean by setting yourself to take a contrary approach to everything the club does

I doubt you were that bothered by us doing that when it brought us Fabregas were you?

[Özim]

But again that's not a moral objection, and as i've stated yes it is frustrating that we give up on signing players if we can't get a bargain. But going to clubs and turning their misfortune to our advantage, if the player is on their books is worth getting than i think why not?.

Valencia aren't going to be low balled, and fair play to them......but it's ridiculous to state we shouldn't be trying it in the first place.

I have more of a problem because we're always trying to manipulate the market rather than doing what we should be doing and signing the players we need, normal clubs identify players they need\want and go and sign them, we look at how much we think we can get someone for then try and sign them for that without actually caring whether they are what we need or not.

[Özim]

This is what i mean by setting yourself to take a contrary approach to everything the club does

I doubt you were that bothered by us doing that when it brought us Fabregas were you?

No because at the time we were a proper club, trouble is we're now a joke of a club who doesn't do anyting the right way anymore.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No because at the time we were a proper club, trouble is we're now a joke of a club who doesn't do anyting the right way anymore.

So to sum it up you don't have an objection to it, you just don't like the fact that it's not working for us any more

Which is pretty much what i said in the first place.

[GP]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp-_PlmW8AAswAw.jpg

[Niall_Quinn]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp-_PlmW8AAswAw.jpg

Give it a good pinch!

[Letters]

Zim is capable of making good and salient points
:lol: I've yet to see any, but maybe.

[Özim]

:lol: I've yet to see any, but maybe.

Yeah I know, I'm guessing it's because you're usually too busy wumming to read through entire posts. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Hart to leave Man City. :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Hart to leave Man City. :lol:

Pep :haha:

One look and a boot out the door. Reality lands in Manchester.

Lesbo will be next.

[Goonermerree]

Just posted on the football nonsense thread, how come Clichy and Sagna have not bee shown the door too.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I agree.... surely if a club is so hard up for cash then they would rather have £10m and no player than nothing and an unhappy player. As the £10m could pay players wages or develop the academy.

This is the most bizarre argument saying basically we should pay basically what the club wants at first contact.

Zim must be an estate agents dream refusing to pay below asking price due to some moral compass.

Hope whatever we're playing at bloody works in any case.

Bizarre is one word yes.

[Power n Glory]

No because at the time we were a proper club, trouble is we're now a joke of a club who doesn't do anyting the right way anymore.

For me, we're have prided ourselves on doing things the right way. I've always had a problem with the under 16 contract thing after reading what we were doing. Poaching a couple of players from a big clubs like Barca won't hurt them but it's the smaller clubs it hurts. Take us out of the equation, it wouldn't have been a healthy thing for football if that were allowed to continue. It's almost impossible for a small club to grow organically these days and develop talent but imagine if that rule was still in place and clubs like Southampton had their best players from their academies taken from them for nothing and they received no compensation.

Partly why I even think along these lines comes down to growing up being an Arsenal fan and listening to Wenger and the club about what's healthy for football, the importance of developing youth and growing organically. We're a club that pride ourselves on doing things the right way so what we used to do was pretty shady. Anything to avoid paying up, eh. :lol:

[mastermind84]

For me, we're have prided ourselves on doing things the right way. I've always had a problem with the under 16 contract thing after reading what we were doing. Poaching a couple of players from a big clubs like Barca won't hurt them but it's the smaller clubs it hurts. Take us out of the equation, it wouldn't have been a healthy thing for football if that were allowed to continue. It's almost impossible for a small club to grow organically these days and develop talent but imagine if that rule was still in place and clubs like Southampton had their best players from their academies taken from them for nothing and they received no compensation.

Partly why I even think along these lines comes down to growing up being an Arsenal fan and listening to Wenger and the club about what's healthy for football, the importance of developing youth and growing organically. We're a club that pride ourselves on doing things the right way so what we used to do was pretty shady. Anything to avoid paying up, eh. :lol:
Totally

[LDG]

Laura Trott :bow:


:gp:

[AFC Leveller]

So, its 3 days till our next game and we have not signed a CB yet. Are we going to play the same pair against Leicester? is the manager going to do what he does best, try prove people wrong and do the same thing over again just to prove a point? a club like Arsenal with so much fucking money in the bank and a desperate need of at least one CB, we are sitting here doing nothing. fucking hopeless.

[GP]

Kos will be back, I would have thought.

[Power n Glory]

Kos, Ozil and Giroud will start.

If Giroud starts and Wenger gambles on him being our main striker again.... :doh:

This guys went MIA after Christmas. He went 18 games without scoring a goal.

In all the 27 games he played after Christmas he managed 8 goals. Take away that hat trick he had scored against a relegated Villa on the last day of the season and 2 goals against Championship side Hull in that FA Cup replay...it looks a lot worse.

I don't care if he has a good start to the season, we must sign a striker or press on with Sanchez up front. Heck, even try Henry's suggestion of Sanchez playing behind Giroud but we can't depend on Giroud for the whole season.

[Gooner23]

Sounds like we're dithering on the Mustaphi deal as well. No rush gents, take your time.

[Özim]

Kos, Ozil and Giroud will start.

If Giroud starts and Wenger gambles on him being our main striker again.... :doh:

This guys went MIA after Christmas. He went 18 games without scoring a goal.

In all the 27 games he played after Christmas he managed 8 goals. Take away that hat trick he had scored against a relegated Villa on the last day of the season and 2 goals against Championship side Hull in that FA Cup replay...it looks a lot worse.

I don't care if he has a good start to the season, we must sign a striker or press on with Sanchez up front. Heck, even try Henry's suggestion of Sanchez playing behind Giroud but we can't depend on Giroud for the whole season.

Giroud is a middle of the road striker, only an incompetent manager like Wenger would be happy to rely on him and not sign anyone, any other normal manager would have signed a striker a long time ago, as usual though it will blow up in his face, it always does, but he never recognises it.

[Globalgunner]

Giroud is a middle of the road striker, only an incompetent manager like Wenger would be happy to rely on him and not sign anyone, any other normal manager would have signed a striker a long time ago, as usual though it will blow up in his face, it always does, but he never recognises it.

Coming 4th without spending money is as good an achievement as coming first. Sometimes you can get lucky and even come 2nd. #Wengervision.

If you ignore the fact that Leicester has a 1 in a million season last year, We actually came 1st......and we only spent 10m...... and we beat them twice. Kampeones!!!!

[Letters]

Take away that hat trick he had scored against a relegated Villa on the last day of the season and 2 goals against Championship side Hull in that FA Cup replay...it looks a lot worse.

And and some more imaginary goals and it looks a lot better. :shrug:

I think we all know Giroud won't win us the league but he's not as bad as some on here make out.

[Power n Glory]

And and some more imaginary goals and it looks a lot better. :shrug:

I think we all know Giroud won't win us the league but he's not as bad as some on here make out.

:good: Great contribution.

[Niall_Quinn]

He's a squad striker, useful in some situations and a decent enough option to have as part of a rotational policy based on who we are playing, the frequency of games and the situation during individual matches. It's absolutely laughable he's our main striker though. Okay, bring him in and give him a season to prove he's a 25-30 goal getter. Hell, even give him 2 seasons. If Wenger gives him 4 seasons though, well that's incompetence with a healthy dose of penny-pinching thrown in. To start Giroud again as our primary striker is a screaming confirmation of our lack of ambition and misplaced priorities. Not that we really need any more confirmation of the obvious.

On the other hand, ITKs tell us we're signing Lewandowski and Griezmann. That's great news, I can't wait. It all sounds totally realistic. I wonder will we be signing Pogba from Utd too? I think yes. That's highly likely.

[Letters]

He's a squad striker, useful in some situations and a decent enough option to have as part of a rotational policy based on who we are playing, the frequency of games and the situation during individual matches. It's absolutely laughable he's our main striker though. Okay, bring him in and give him a season to prove he's a 25-30 goal getter. Hell, even give him 2 seasons. If Wenger gives him 4 seasons though, well that's incompetence with a healthy dose of penny-pinching thrown in. To start Giroud again as our primary striker is a screaming confirmation of our lack of ambition and misplaced priorities. Not that we really need any more confirmation of the obvious.

On the other hand, ITKs tell us we're signing Lewandowski and Griezmann. That's great news, I can't wait. It all sounds totally realistic. I wonder will we be signing Pogba from Utd too? I think yes. That's highly likely.

It does seem Wenger has tried to sign someone better so he must recognise it's a problem, but he's failed to and that's the problem. He doesn't seem that good at closing deals and frankly that shouldn't be his job anyway. The board should get someone in to deal with all that, all Wenger should be doing is identifying the players.

[Power n Glory]

Giroud is a middle of the road striker, only an incompetent manager like Wenger would be happy to rely on him and not sign anyone, any other normal manager would have signed a striker a long time ago, as usual though it will blow up in his face, it always does, but he never recognises it.

It will be interesting to see the line up on Saturday. I can’t be crazy enough to go with the same starting line up that has failed so many times before.

--------------------Giroud------------------------

Sanchez-----------Ozil------------------Walcott

-------Coquelin/Xhaka---Elneny---------------

Monreal------Kos—Chambers----Bellerin

-------------------Czech-----------------------

I’d rather not see the above line up. It should be good enough to win the game but not the league even if we sign a CB to replace Chambers.

[Marc Overmars]

Bit of talk that Usmanov wants to sell his stake and invest in Everton.

Bye.

[LDG]

Bit of talk that Usmanov wants to sell his stake and invest in Everton.

Bye.

So Stan gets 100% of the club?

Deep joy.

[Power n Glory]

Bit of talk that Usmanov wants to sell his stake and invest in Everton.

Bye.

What's going on with David Dein? Can he ever get back on the board with PHW gone? He backed both Stan and Usmanov to buy shares.

[Kano]

It does seem Wenger has tried to sign someone better so he must recognise it's a problem, but he's failed to and that's the problem. He doesn't seem that good at closing deals and frankly that shouldn't be his job anyway. The board should get someone in to deal with all that, all Wenger should be doing is identifying the players.

Dick Law is his name. Cocking up deals is his game.

[Letters]

Dick Law is his name. Cocking up deals is his game.

:lol: There's a perception though that Wenger is far too involved, and maybe that's true. Is it Wenger saying he won't pay £31m rather than £30m and thus losing a player or is it Dick Law? If the latter then Wenger doesn't deserve as much flak as he's getting. If it's Wenger messing up deals by penny pinching then he deserves the flak.

[Özim]

Bit of talk that Usmanov wants to sell his stake and invest in Everton.

Bye.

Probably tired of having so many shares but having no say at all, all whilst having to watch Kroenke do absolutely nothing for the club. Probably wise to go to a club where has can have some influence. We'll be stuck with Kroenke for the foreseeable future by the looks of it.

[Özim]

What's going on with David Dein? Can he ever get back on the board with PHW gone? He backed both Stan and Usmanov to buy shares.

That ship has sailed, Dein is never coming back to the club unfortunately, if he was going to he would have by now.

[Niall_Quinn]

Bit of talk that Usmanov wants to sell his stake and invest in Everton.

Bye.

His mate paved the way last season. I wondered what that was about, whether they'd had a falling out or whether it was part of a wider plan. It won't make any difference to us. Kronke has his claws sunk deep and won't be relinquishing as much as the stink off his shit in the foreseeable future.

[Power n Glory]

:lol: There's a perception though that Wenger is far too involved, and maybe that's true. Is it Wenger saying he won't pay £31m rather than £30m and thus losing a player or is it Dick Law? If the latter then Wenger doesn't deserve as much flak as he's getting. If it's Wenger messing up deals by penny pinching then he deserves the flak.

I wonder why?



“I personally believe the only way to be a manager is to spend the club’s money as if it were your own,” he said, “because if you don’t do that you’re susceptible to too many mistakes.

“You make big decisions and I believe you have to act like it’s your own money, like you’re the owner of the club and you can identify completely with the club.

“Because if you don’t do that I think you cannot go far.”

[Kano]

:lol: There's a perception though that Wenger is far too involved, and maybe that's true. Is it Wenger saying he won't pay £31m rather than £30m and thus losing a player or is it Dick Law? If the latter then Wenger doesn't deserve as much flak as he's getting. If it's Wenger messing up deals by penny pinching then he deserves the flak.

I think Wenger does have final say in a lot of situations. There was a thread on Reddit about Kim Kallstrom's time at Arsenal (a really good read btw) that transcribes an interview he had on Swedish radio recently. For example, when he was going through his medical on transfer deadline day, the med staff picked up his back problem that would have killed his move in most cases. Wenger was in the room and despite the advice, overruled and made the final call to still sign him, even though he wouldn't be available for two months. So I would imagine Wenger would have the final say in transfers too. But what bothers me is how easily fans are influenced by media transfer stories. It's quite sad really. Wenger deserves flak for failing to manage the team, our repeated failings and for not getting in players quickly enough. But when the media lead the narrative on what we are/not doing in terms of negotiating, it frustrates me. Arsenal fans are easy targets (because of Wenger's failings in finding players quickly enough) the media exploit that to the fullest and fans fall for it each and everytime. The problem is I guess, that while the media do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, the club hardly do either.

[Özim]

I wonder why?

Well all know Wenger is cheap, let's not pretend otherwise, he's like a squirrel collecting nuts for the winter, but then winter comes and he doesn't use up the nuts, he keeps them so that next year he's got more nuts and when looking for a new nest the following near another squirrel offers him a nest for 1 nut, Wenger offers him 0.41 of a nut.

[Power n Glory]

That ship has sailed, Dein is never coming back to the club unfortunately, if he was going to he would have by now.

Well, I would have thought PHW was the only one blocking the move but since he's gone....

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: There's a perception though that Wenger is far too involved, and maybe that's true. Is it Wenger saying he won't pay £31m rather than £30m and thus losing a player or is it Dick Law? If the latter then Wenger doesn't deserve as much flak as he's getting. If it's Wenger messing up deals by penny pinching then he deserves the flak.

Can you honestly envisage Law (or anyone at the club) being in a position to overrule Wenger? It would be one of the reaches of the season to suggest anyone bar Wenger is responsible for our shambolic transfer policies. He admits it. You can see the pride he takes in holding the club back from its potential, though of course he doesn't see the reality and seems to genuinely believe he's doing the game a huge favour. You've heard him. Endless commentary on what other clubs are doing wrong, a bag full of excuses for our own behaviour. His biggest problem is he can't admit so many of his players are duds and he absolutely won't accept the way the market has gone. I mean he's right, the market is a joke. But his proclamations change nothing and his failure to act results in the bland outcomes that have become a hallmark of the club. He's the most unsuitable man I can imagine to be the manager of a modern football club. This is where the theory that literally anybody could do a better job comes from. Any old Joe might not be able to secure that coveted top 4 finish on such a consistent basis, but they would at least appreciate reality instead of the fantasy that Wenger has immersed himself in. And then you have the other half of the unholy duo, that yank vampire who couldn't give a fuck about the club beyond its capacity to provide him with collateral for his land grabs. What a mess.

[Özim]

I think Wenger does have final say in a lot of situations. There was a thread on Reddit about Kim Kallstrom's time at Arsenal (a really good read btw) that transcribes an interview he had on Swedish radio recently. For example, when he was going through his medical on transfer deadline day, the med staff picked up his back problem that would have killed his move in most cases. Wenger was in the room and despite the advice, overruled and made the final call to still sign him, even though he wouldn't be available for two months. So I would imagine Wenger would have the final say in transfers too. But what bothers me is how easily fans are influenced by media transfer stories. It's quite sad really. Wenger deserves flak for failing to manage the team, our repeated failings and for not getting in players quickly enough. But when the media lead he narrative on what he are/not doing in terms of negotiating, it frustrates me. Arsenal fans are easy targets (because of Wenger's failings in finding players quickly enough) the media exploit that to the fullest and fans fall for it each and everytime. The problem is I guess, that while the media do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, the club hardly do either.

The problem isn't the media, they trying to make money, it's the fact the guy doesn't sign anyone and certainly not anyone we need, if he did the media would be irrelevant, but people are so desperate for a signing they'll believe any story.

In the end though he's the problem, if he signed players none of this would matter, because he doesn't all these failed signings become all too believable, either he tries to sign these players and fails, or doesn't try at all, both are no good.

[Kano]

You just summarised almost everything I already said above.

[Power n Glory]

The problem isn't the media, they trying to make money, it's the fact the guy doesn't sign anyone and certainly not anyone we need, if he did the media would be irrelevant, but people are so desperate for a signing they'll believe any story.

In the end though he's the problem, if he signed players none of this would matter, because he doesn't all these failed signings become all too believable, either he tries to sign these players and fails, or doesn't try at all, both are no good.

The media’s doing him a favour. It at least gives the perception that we’re active in the market. What if he’s taken a gamble on certain positions and our business has already been done? We signed Rob Holding but nobody would have thought he’d be starting against Liverpool. Had to be a signing for the future. Even with our injury crisis you would have thought he’d play Debuchy or Monreal with Chambers. Heck, even Bielik or Coquelin. Not Rob Holding. He was too young we all thought. But he started the game. If you’re good enough, you play, according to Wenger. Age doesn’t matter. So maybe he really thought Rob Holding could have a breakthrough season and we didn’t need to spend on a CB. That’s a scary thought.

[Letters]

Can you honestly envisage Law (or anyone at the club) being in a position to overrule Wenger?

Being in a position to? The board are his bosses aren't they? Of course they're in a position to, take the responsibility away from him, get someone else to manage the transfers. But they don't want to because Wenger is doing a brilliant job, from their point of view. Keeping us relatively competitive, enough to keep the CL money rolling in anyway, and not spending silly money on transfers. It's perfect for them.
Wenger has far too much power in the club but the board are responsible for letting that happen.

EDIT: Oh, and for all his faults I genuinely believe Wenger cares how we do. I don't think the board give a shit.

[Power n Glory]

Being in a position to? The board are his bosses aren't they? Of course they're in a position to, take the responsibility away from him, get someone else to manage the transfers. But they don't want to because Wenger is doing a brilliant job, from their point of view. Keeping us relatively competitive, enough to keep the CL money rolling in anyway, and not spending silly money on transfers. It's perfect for them.
Wenger has far too much power in the club but the board are responsible for letting that happen.

EDIT: Oh, and for all his faults I genuinely believe Wenger cares how we do. I don't think the board give a shit.

Shifting goal posts.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Being in a position to? The board are his bosses aren't they? Of course they're in a position to, take the responsibility away from him, get someone else to manage the transfers. But they don't want to because Wenger is doing a brilliant job, from their point of view. Keeping us relatively competitive, enough to keep the CL money rolling in anyway, and not spending silly money on transfers. It's perfect for them.
Wenger has far too much power in the club but the board are responsible for letting that happen.

EDIT: Oh, and for all his faults I genuinely believe Wenger cares how we do. I don't think the board give a shit.

No the only person who has any authority over Wenger is Stan Kroenke

[Letters]

Shifting goal posts.

Care to elaborate?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Dick Law is his name. Cocking up deals is his game.

Dick Law does as well as he can given that he has one arm tied behind his back, he is a proxy for Wenger.....it's well known that he was in a room negotiating a contract with a players representatives only to be called out and told on the phone that Wenger had changed his mind and didn't want that player anymore.

[GP]

That player's name?

Albert Einstein.

[Kano]

EDIT: Oh, and for all his faults I genuinely believe Wenger cares how we do. I don't think the board give a shit.

Of course he does. He wants to do the best he can but he no longer has the ability to reach the top as he used to. It's a case of failing ability rather than lack of care. He wouldn't be flipping his nut on the sideline if he didn't give a damn. The team would pick up on that lack of interest and wouldn't even achieve the high table position they typically do. If the boss doesn't care, why should we, would be their approach. Chelsea last season is the perfect example of a team and boss on completely different pages. He earns £8m a year but anyone with their head screwed on would understand that all wages in the game are obscene and who wouldn't maximise their wages if it didn't mean bankrupting the company paying you? The board on the other hand, can go fuck themselves. Perhaps things would be different if he delegated more, perhaps not. His philosophies have been implemented in far too many parts of the club and because that benefits the board too, it isn't about to change.

[Niall_Quinn]

Being in a position to? The board are his bosses aren't they? Of course they're in a position to, take the responsibility away from him, get someone else to manage the transfers. But they don't want to because Wenger is doing a brilliant job, from their point of view. Keeping us relatively competitive, enough to keep the CL money rolling in anyway, and not spending silly money on transfers. It's perfect for them.
Wenger has far too much power in the club but the board are responsible for letting that happen.

EDIT: Oh, and for all his faults I genuinely believe Wenger cares how we do. I don't think the board give a shit.

We only just heard from Wenger himself how he has to calm Gazidis' requests to buy players. This isn't media speculation, this is Wenger telling us who makes the final decisions. Yes of course his bosses could theoretically sack him or overrule him. But practically, considering none of them seem to know the first thing about the cash cow they have obtained, Wenger is like their key to the kingdom. It's the lack of conflict that's most revealing. If the board genuinely wanted the club to be ambitious and succeed on the pitch then they'd demand it, and if Wenger was subject to their demands on a practical level he'd do what he was told. I'm not saying the board bows to Wenger. I'm saying neither party needs to worry about such things as their methods seem to be so perfectly aligned, even if their ultimate objectives are not (thought I can't see any indication they aren't on precisely the same page). So Wenger has bosses-in-name-only. Like a captain at sea. The owner lets him sail on provided he phones back the profits from each port of call. They love him all the more because he insists on using oars rather than a modern engine.

[IBK]

It does seem Wenger has tried to sign someone better so he must recognise it's a problem, but he's failed to and that's the problem. He doesn't seem that good at closing deals and frankly that shouldn't be his job anyway. The board should get someone in to deal with all that, all Wenger should be doing is identifying the players.

This. And the fact that Wenger is omnipotent at AFC is a lot of the problem that we are seeing, because it means that there is no check on his increasing myopia. Wenger has clearly lost sight of his principal function. It is not a manager's job to look after the financial health of the club as an investment, yet this appears to have become his priority. Its bizzare and (ironically) damaging to the reputation and the long term prospects of the club. It means also that one man's incraesing detachment from the reality of the modern game has become the watchword and modus operandum of the entire club.

What's even more shocking are his attempts to have us believe that we don't even need a striker - having made it crystal clear that he thinks that we do (albeit at the 'right' price).

Bad times.

[Letters]

Of course he does. He wants to do the best he can but he no longer has the ability to reach the top as he used to. It's a case of failing ability rather than lack of care. He wouldn't be flipping his nut on the sideline if he didn't give a damn. The team would pick up on that lack of interest and wouldn't even achieve the high table position they typically do. If the boss doesn't care, why should we, would be their approach. Chelsea last season is the perfect example of a team and boss on completely different pages. He earns £8m a year but anyone with their head screwed on would understand that all wages in the game are obscene and who wouldn't maximise their wages if it didn't mean bankrupting the company paying you? The board on the other hand, can go fuck themselves. Perhaps things would be different if he delegated more, perhaps not. His philosophies have been implemented in far too many parts of the club and because that benefits the board too, it isn't about to change.

Pretty much what I think, and I added that addendum because I've heard some on here suggest that Wenger is perfectly happy with perennial top 4 finishes and isn't bothered about us doing better. That's balls, of course he is but I don't think he has the ability to do better. And yes, the board can sod right off.

[Power n Glory]

Care to elaborate?


There's a perception though that Wenger is far too involved, and maybe that's true. Is it Wenger saying he won't pay £31m rather than £30m and thus losing a player or is it Dick Law? If the latter then Wenger doesn't deserve as much flak as he's getting. If it's Wenger messing up deals by penny pinching then he deserves the flak.

Is Wenger responsible for penny pinching and does he deserve the flak? Nobody asked if he cared about the club. Stan’s position is pretty clear. This is just an investment to him. Nobody has argued otherwise. If that’s his stance on the club but Wenger genuinely cares about what happens here, you have to question why he seems so eager to serve their agenda and not the supporters that have been here a lot longer. That’s a side note. It goes back to who is messing up the deals and it sounds a lot like it’s Wenger.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Well all know Wenger is cheap, let's not pretend otherwise, he's like a squirrel collecting nuts for the winter, but then winter comes and he doesn't use up the nuts, he keeps them so that next year he's got more nuts and when looking for a new nest the following near another squirrel offers him a nest for 1 nut, Wenger offers him 0.41 of a nut.

What?

[Xhaka Can’t]

You just summarised almost everything I already said above.

Yeah but yours was tldr material.

[IBK]

Well all know Wenger is cheap, let's not pretend otherwise, he's like a squirrel collecting nuts for the winter, but then winter comes and he doesn't use up the nuts, he keeps them so that next year he's got more nuts and when looking for a new nest the following near another squirrel offers him a nest for 1 nut, Wenger offers him 0.41 of a nut.[/QUOTE]


What?

:lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That player's name?

Albert Einstein.

No...J.R Hartley

[Power n Glory]

We only just heard from Wenger himself how he has to calm Gazidis' requests to buy players. This isn't media speculation, this is Wenger telling us who makes the final decisions. Yes of course his bosses could theoretically sack him or overrule him. But practically, considering none of them seem to know the first thing about the cash cow they have obtained, Wenger is like their key to the kingdom. It's the lack of conflict that's most revealing. If the board genuinely wanted the club to be ambitious and succeed on the pitch then they'd demand it, and if Wenger was subject to their demands on a practical level he'd do what he was told. I'm not saying the board bows to Wenger. I'm saying neither party needs to worry about such things as their methods seem to be so perfectly aligned, even if their ultimate objectives are not (thought I can't see any indication they aren't on precisely the same page). So Wenger has bosses-in-name-only. Like a captain at sea. The owner lets him sail on provided he phones back the profits from each port of call. They love him all the more because he insists on using oars rather than a modern engine.

Pretty much. I match made in heaven.

I have a real problem with Wenger. He’s supposed to be a football purist and what happens on the pitch should be focus. The end game for him should be trophies. I can understand the owners being focussed on keeping the club ticking over and building up the revenue, etc. They’re not football men. Wenger is like a player that’s happy to warm the bench. Where the heck is the drive and motivation?

[IBK]

Of course he does. He wants to do the best he can but he no longer has the ability to reach the top as he used to. It's a case of failing ability rather than lack of care. He wouldn't be flipping his nut on the sideline if he didn't give a damn. The team would pick up on that lack of interest and wouldn't even achieve the high table position they typically do. If the boss doesn't care, why should we, would be their approach. Chelsea last season is the perfect example of a team and boss on completely different pages. He earns £8m a year but anyone with their head screwed on would understand that all wages in the game are obscene and who wouldn't maximise their wages if it didn't mean bankrupting the company paying you? The board on the other hand, can go fuck themselves. Perhaps things would be different if he delegated more, perhaps not. His philosophies have been implemented in far too many parts of the club and because that benefits the board too, it isn't about to change.

Kind of - but we need to look at Wenger's definition of 'the best he can'.

For the manager, its seems as though this phrase is qualified. He wants to do the 'best he can' while remaining financially conservative. Unless someone is denying him the funds, this qualification is in his gift to remove, so the situation is akin to a golfer choosing to compete with outdated clubs; or a Formula One boss deciding to race with last year's model. I don't buy that that is doing the best they can. In transfers at least it is clearly Wenger with the handbrake on. His choice ultimately. Its not a question of whether he cares, its a question of whether he is putting his team in the best position to try to win things, and he patently is not.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger is an extension of the board. I see no difference anymore, the board are merely his bosses on paper. He doesn't have to answer to anyone.

[Kano]

Yeah but yours was tldr material.
need to brush up on my forest animal metaphors

[Niall_Quinn]

This. And the fact that Wenger is omnipotent at AFC is a lot of the problem that we are seeing, because it means that there is no check on his increasing myopia. Wenger has clearly lost sight of his principal function. It is not a manager's job to look after the financial health of the club as an investment, yet this appears to have become his priority. Its bizzare and (ironically) damaging to the reputation and the long term prospects of the club. It means also that one man's incraesing detachment from the reality of the modern game has become the watchword and modus operandum of the entire club.

What's even more shocking are his attempts to have us believe that we don't even need a striker - having made it crystal clear that he thinks that we do (albeit at the 'right' price).

Bad times.

The cold and ultimate fact is Kroenke has at least doubled the value of his investment. Wenger has delivered at minimum a 100% increase to the shareholders. This is spectacular success by any shareholder's measure. I'm sure they are sitting there on their hands, mouths zipped. Don't do or say a thing that could possibly upset this golden goose. The rest of it I see as going through the motions. The big pretence. Yes of course we are ambitious, yes of course we want to be part of the elite. I believe them when they say this. But I also believe they are speaking in financial terms, I don't imagine they pay a blind bit of attention to the football itself. That's Wenger's domain, the vehicle for the profits. And he manages in just that way, with profitability as the main (perhaps only) focus. I bet if they could make more profit from being relegated they'd push for that. But for maximum profits a certain bare minimum standard has to be maintained on the pitch, offset by the smallest possible expenditure. Wenger has found this happy (for some) balance. The top 4 "trophy" (again, this is a financial rather than football measure) and the whole convenient idea of sustainability. They have very successfully convinced the media and the fans that what is nothing more than a cost control exercise is a virtue to be admired and aspired to. Some poor saps actually look down their noses at the clubs winning trophies and hammering us 6-0. They may have a trophy, they may be competitive, they may have humiliated us in a football sense. But in terms of the balance sheet, they are dirty and we are saintly. Honestly, the very idea of football fans offering up daylight robbery as a source of pride and superiority is mortally embarrassing. That's why other fans laugh at us, or pity us. They also say, well yes, I'd take the top 4 finishes. But again, they are talking about it in football terms. We never are. It's always financial with us. The whole reason for the club has been subverted.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger is an extension of the board. I see no difference anymore, the board are merely his bosses on paper. He doesn't have to answer to anyone.

By the board let's say what we mean and say Kroenke and Gazidis. The rest of the board are just there to keep the seats warm, Chips Keswick the chairman is nothing by a human dummy corporation....he has an official title but he doesn't actually have to do anything.

The club used to be run by Dein, Edelman and Fiszman at the behest of Peter Hill Wood whose official responsibilities were to call himself the chairman

Now it's run by Wenger with Gazidis as his PR Spokesman when he should be his boss

[IBK]

The cold and ultimate fact is Kroenke has at least doubled the value of his investment. Wenger has delivered at minimum a 100% increase to the shareholders. This is spectacular success by any shareholder's measure. I'm sure they are sitting there on their hands, mouths zipped. Don't do or say a thing that could possibly upset this golden goose. The rest of it I see as going through the motions. The big pretence. Yes of course we are ambitious, yes of course we want to be part of the elite. I believe them when they say this. But I also believe they are speaking in financial terms, I don't imagine they pay a blind bit of attention to the football itself. That's Wenger's domain, the vehicle for the profits. And he manages in just that way, with profitability as the main (perhaps only) focus. I bet if they could make more profit from being relegated they'd push for that. But for maximum profits a certain bare minimum standard has to be maintained on the pitch, offset by the smallest possible expenditure. Wenger has found this happy (for some) balance. The top 4 "trophy" (again, this is a financial rather than football measure) and the whole convenient idea of sustainability. They have very successfully convinced the media and the fans that what is nothing more than a cost control exercise is a virtue to be admired and aspired to. Some poor saps actually look down their noses at the clubs winning trophies and hammering us 6-0. They may have a trophy, they may be competitive, they may have humiliated us in a football sense. But in terms of the balance sheet, they are dirty and we are saintly. Honestly, the very idea of football fans offering up daylight robbery as a source of pride and superiority is mortally embarrassing. That's why other fans laugh at us, or pity us. They also say, well yes, I'd take the top 4 finishes. But again, they are talking about it in football terms. We never are. It's always financial with us. The whole reason for the club has been subverted.

Pretty much.

[Kano]

Kind of - but we need to look at Wenger's definition of 'the best he can'.

For the manager, its seems as though this phrase is qualified. He wants to do the 'best he can' while remaining financially conservative. Unless someone is denying him the funds, this qualification is in his gift to remove, so the situation is akin to a golfer choosing to compete with outdated clubs; or a Formula One boss deciding to race with last year's model. I don't buy that that is doing the best they can. In transfers at least it is clearly Wenger with the handbrake on. His choice ultimately. Its not a question of whether he cares, its a question of whether he is putting his team in the best position to try to win things, and he patently is not.

I think that qualification is quite subjective. The end result isn't but certainly one persons idea of doing their best can differ to what someone else thinks. If that wasn't the case, there would only ever be one method of achieving or doing something. The key is I think, constantly reviewing the process after the event and aiming for improvements. Whether you were successful or failed, that should always happen. But it doesn't appear to be the case with Wenger. He appears to have remained static with his methods for the past twenty years, hence the repetitive cycles we have become stuck in. But without anyone around to push him into analysing his failings, he has become entrenched within his own bubble.

[Power n Glory]

Kind of - but we need to look at Wenger's definition of 'the best he can'.

For the manager, its seems as though this phrase is qualified. He wants to do the 'best he can' while remaining financially conservative. Unless someone is denying him the funds, this qualification is in his gift to remove, so the situation is akin to a golfer choosing to compete with outdated clubs; or a Formula One boss deciding to race with last year's model. I don't buy that that is doing the best they can. In transfers at least it is clearly Wenger with the handbrake on. His choice ultimately. Its not a question of whether he cares, its a question of whether he is putting his team in the best position to try to win things, and he patently is not.

Pretty much. It never was a question of whether he cared for the club. Conversations always seem to get steered in that direction.

[Niall_Quinn]

By the board let's say what we mean and say Kroenke and Gazidis. The rest of the board are just there to keep the seats warm, Chips Keswick the chairman is nothing by a human dummy corporation....he has an official title but he doesn't actually have to do anything.

The club used to be run by Dein, Edelman and Fiszman at the behest of Peter Hill Wood whose official responsibilities were to call himself the chairman

Now it's run by Wenger with Gazidis as his PR Spokesman when he should be his boss

Is Gazidis actually on the board?

[Niall_Quinn]

Pretty much. It never was a question of whether he cared for the club. Conversations always seem to get steered in that direction.

It's an escape route, away from the more troubling aspects of Wenger's record. The top 4 trophy is another such route. Or the idea Wenger is so ingrained that we'd suffer if anybody else tried to do his job - they never mention that nobody should do Wenger's job ever again, we should never have another manager with so much reach and control. But, because there's nobody out there that could do a job we don't want done, then Wenger remains the best and only option. These arguments have been honed over many seasons, they form the doctrine of the Cult of Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

The cold and ultimate fact is Kroenke has at least doubled the value of his investment. Wenger has delivered at minimum a 100% increase to the shareholders. This is spectacular success by any shareholder's measure. I'm sure they are sitting there on their hands, mouths zipped. Don't do or say a thing that could possibly upset this golden goose. The rest of it I see as going through the motions. The big pretence. Yes of course we are ambitious, yes of course we want to be part of the elite. I believe them when they say this. But I also believe they are speaking in financial terms, I don't imagine they pay a blind bit of attention to the football itself. That's Wenger's domain, the vehicle for the profits. And he manages in just that way, with profitability as the main (perhaps only) focus. I bet if they could make more profit from being relegated they'd push for that. But for maximum profits a certain bare minimum standard has to be maintained on the pitch, offset by the smallest possible expenditure. Wenger has found this happy (for some) balance. The top 4 "trophy" (again, this is a financial rather than football measure) and the whole convenient idea of sustainability. They have very successfully convinced the media and the fans that what is nothing more than a cost control exercise is a virtue to be admired and aspired to. Some poor saps actually look down their noses at the clubs winning trophies and hammering us 6-0. They may have a trophy, they may be competitive, they may have humiliated us in a football sense. But in terms of the balance sheet, they are dirty and we are saintly. Honestly, the very idea of football fans offering up daylight robbery as a source of pride and superiority is mortally embarrassing. That's why other fans laugh at us, or pity us. They also say, well yes, I'd take the top 4 finishes. But again, they are talking about it in football terms. We never are. It's always financial with us. The whole reason for the club has been subverted.

Hence why I had to step back a little when looking at the outside investment argument compared to the model we have here. It started to sound and look like a con and a way for the fans to foot the bill whilst the wealthy owners invested nothing at all. It was made even more clear when Wenger said the new TV deal money wouldn't result in lowered ticket prices.

[IBK]

I think that qualification is quite subjective. The end result isn't but certainly one persons idea of doing their best can differ to what something thinks. If that wasn't the case, there would only ever be one method of achieving or doing something. The key is I think, constantly reviewing the process after the event and aiming for improvements. Whether you were successful or failed, that should always happen. But it doesn't appear to be the case with Wenger. He appears to have remained static with his methods for the past twenty years, hence the repetitive cycles we have become stuck in. But without anyone around to push him into analysing his failings, he has become entrenched within his own bubble.

I agree with your point as regards the highlighted text - and the failings in Wenger's methods can't fairly be attributed to him lacking a will to win. But I don't think his obvious reluctance to pay what has become the going rate for additions to his team that he clearly sees the need for is a subjective qualification to this. It is an objective failing. You might say generally that whether or not reinforcements are needed is a subjective decision for the manager that is difficult to fit into the 'doing the best he can' judgment call, but we are looking at a trend here with Arsenal that has undoubtedly denied us chances of league success. For this reason I don't see why his failings and obstinacy in the transfer market should be regarded as anything other than a failure to do the best possible job of making us competitive. The evidence is that he chooses not to spend what is necessary; and therefore deliberately takes risks with his squad, not that he has been forced to do so and is doing his best in straightened circumstances.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is Gazidis actually on the board?

The board is actually used to denote those in charge of the club

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's an escape route, away from the more troubling aspects of Wenger's record. The top 4 trophy is another such route. Or the idea Wenger is so ingrained that we'd suffer if anybody else tried to do his job - they never mention that nobody should do Wenger's job ever again, we should never have another manager with so much reach and control. But, because there's nobody out there that could do a job we don't want done, then Wenger remains the best and only option. These arguments have been honed over many seasons, they form the doctrine of the Cult of Wenger.

The question one has to ask is would the club act to make sure the next manager had significantly less responsibility and authority than Wenger, I'm not convinced they would.

[Power n Glory]

The question one has to ask is would the club act to make sure the next manager had significantly less responsibility and authority than Wenger, I'm not convinced they would.

Is that a huge problem? Would this sort of set up pose a problem for any other top manager? If anything, I've seen more managers struggle where they don't have this sort of freedom.

As long as the next manager has a focus to win trophies and doing what's best for the club on the pitch and not the board room, we should be fine.

[Letters]

Is Wenger responsible for penny pinching and does he deserve the flak? Nobody asked if he cared about the club. Stan’s position is pretty clear. This is just an investment to him. Nobody has argued otherwise. If that’s his stance on the club but Wenger genuinely cares about what happens here, you have to question why he seems so eager to serve their agenda and not the supporters that have been here a lot longer. That’s a side note. It goes back to who is messing up the deals and it sounds a lot like it’s Wenger.

Wenger deserves flak if he's penny pinching and messing up deals, but the board deserve flak for letting him have responsibility for this sort of thing in the first place. I don't think other clubs are run this way.
I actually don't think Wenger is doing what he does to server their agenda, I think he's doing it for other ideological reasons about the "right" way to do things and because he does care about the long term future of the club.
It suits the board very nicely but I don't think he's doing it because of that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is that a huge problem? Would this sort of set up pose a problem for any other top manager? If anything, I've seen more managers struggle where they don't have this sort of freedom.

As long as the next manager has a focus to win trophies and doing what's best for the club on the pitch and not the board room, we should be fine.

It's a massive problem, no manager in football has the same freedom and authority in their position as Wenger does. Whatever Wenger's failings, Managers are not infallible and it would be wrong to give someone else the same carte blanche. We know full well the way Wenger reacts to criticism from journalists simply because it's the type of criticism/scrutiny that does not come from above.

No-one is saying make the manager powerless, but let's not pretend that Wenger's shortcomings haven't been exacerbated by a club that takes a laisse faire approach to the way the club is run in a footballing sense.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Is Gazidis actually on the board?

Yep.

Afaik it's:

Stan Kroenke
Josh Kroenke (Wonder how he weasled on there :rolleyes:)
Chips Kewsick
Lord Harris of Peckham
Ken Friar
Gazidis


As H_C_Z, it's basically Kroenke and Gazidis who call the shots. The likes of Chips and Harris seem the type who don't give a fuck what's going on and only attend for the benefits.

Wenger will probably get invited onto once he decides to call it quits.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't care why he is doing this any longer. For whatever reason he is doing it, he is either complicit, incompetent or both.

Sadly he has no pride, not even in whatever legacy he has remaining, otherwise he'd be gone.

Long gone.

[Niall_Quinn]

If the last decade is the best he can do then the face smacking and obvious question is, why hasn't he been sacked? If failure to compete is the accepted standard then why does a man who cares so deeply about the club put up with it? With Wenger, I'm afraid the evidence has long since moved against him. I believe he does his best, but not for the club and for the fans, but for his shareholders and for himself. I believe that because the evidence points to it. And the evidence against is extremely flimsy given the behaviour of the club and the manager over the last decade.

[Letters]

It's obvious why he hasn't been sacked, and there's not much evidence either way for why he does what he does, only he knows what really goes on inside his head and what his motivations are.

[Niall_Quinn]

The question one has to ask is would the club act to make sure the next manager had significantly less responsibility and authority than Wenger, I'm not convinced they would.

I think they'd have to. What other manager would accept a job description like Wenger's? And when have you ever heard another manager talk about the finances of the club like Wenger talks about them? I'm pretty confident the only finances Pep, Klopp, Maureen, etc are worried about is the cash arriving in their pockets and the cash arriving in their transfer kitty, and I'm pretty damn sure they are of the opinion the more the merrier. Where could the club find another manager that thought the opposite?

Of course they could get Wenger to find them somebody :doh:

This is the ultimate fear.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's obvious why he hasn't been sacked, and there's not much evidence either way for why he does what he does, only he knows what really goes on inside his head and what his motivations are.

If it's obvious, in football terms, then it escapes me. What is the obvious reason why he hasn't been sacked?

[Power n Glory]

It's a massive problem, no manager in football has the same freedom and authority in their position as Wenger does. Whatever Wenger's failings, Managers are not infallible and it would be wrong to give someone else the same carte blanche. We know full well the way Wenger reacts to criticism from journalists simply because it's the type of criticism/scrutiny that does not come from above.

No-one is saying make the manager powerless, but let's not pretend that Wenger's shortcomings haven't been exacerbated by a club that takes a laisse faire approach to the way the club is run in a footballing sense.

Ok. Do you think if we were to have signed up Klopp or Pepp they'd have a problem with this freedom? Jose even? Do you think they'd struggle and go 12 years without the league title?

[Letters]

If it's obvious, in football terms, then it escapes me. What is the obvious reason why he hasn't been sacked?

He is meeting his bosses expectations.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ok. Do you think if we were to have signed up Klopp or Pepp they'd have a problem with this freedom? Jose even? Do you think they'd struggle and go 12 years without the league title?

Do you think there's even a slim chance any of them would be at the same club for 12 years? That's a huge part of the problem, the familiarity of the whole thing. That's how Wenger has slowly consolidated his power. Only Ferguson can really be compared and we can all see plainly enough how the long term record of a manager focused on football stacks up against the record of a manager focused on finances.

[Niall_Quinn]

He is meeting his bosses expectations.

So that goes back to the question, why does Wenger accept such low standards? As somebody else has already asked, where is his ambition, his pride? And if he has no ambition and no pride then can he really be doing the best he's capable of?

[Power n Glory]

I think they'd have to. What other manager would accept a job description like Wenger's? And when have you ever heard another manager talk about the finances of the club like Wenger talks about them? I'm pretty confident the only finances Pep, Klopp, Maureen, etc are worried about is the cash arriving in their pockets and the cash arriving in their transfer kitty, and I'm pretty damn sure they are of the opinion the more the merrier. Where could the club find another manager that thought the opposite?

Of course they could get Wenger to find them somebody :doh:

This is the ultimate fear.


Do you think Pep, Klopp or Jose would struggle with the set up we have here? I actually think Jose is envious of what we have here. It's why he's gone to Utd as well. I think if we bring in a someone with a vision, they'd have the freedom to work how they want. Or at least I hope. That's the sort of conditions Wenger walked into when he arrived and here are. The clubs molded in his image. If he didn't wanted to unburden himself and focus purely on what's going on on the pitch, I don't think he'd be denied that.

I think Wenger's replacement will walk into a healthy set up so long as they are hungry for success. I'm more so worried about who we appoint and the process. It's a problem if Wenger appoints his successor but can we trust the Board full of non football men to identify the right man? It's a tricky one.

[Özim]

So that goes back to the question, why does Wenger accept such low standards? As somebody else has already asked, where is his ambition, his pride? And if he has no ambition and no pride then can he really be doing the best he's capable of?

He has no pride, the only thing that goes through his head is pound signs, everything he does is geared towards money. I question whether he genuinely cares about the club as some allude, if he did why is he so intent on doing the bare minimum and not maximising our chances of success, why is he blaming the fans (pretty much the club) and everyone else for the problems he's created?

I don't think he cares about the club, I think he cares about the money he pockets, his supposed bosses being happy with him and being part of this gentleman's club they seem to have going on and his relationships with his players, not sure that is considered caring for the club, because right now it's fans are unhappy and there's infighting because of his methods, doesn't give a toss about that does he?

[Power n Glory]

Do you think there's even a slim chance any of them would be at the same club for 12 years? That's a huge part of the problem, the familiarity of the whole thing. That's how Wenger has slowly consolidated his power. Only Ferguson can really be compared and we can all see plainly enough how the long term record of a manager focused on football stacks up against the record of a manager focused on finances.

Mourinho wants that long term legacy. I don't think there are many managers out there that wouldn't want something similar. It's just that the demand for success is so high at other clubs.

[Power n Glory]

I don't care why he is doing this any longer. For whatever reason he is doing it, he is either complicit, incompetent or both.

Sadly he has no pride, not even in whatever legacy he has remaining, otherwise he'd be gone.

Long gone.


Sums it up.

[Özim]

He is meeting his bosses expectations.

It's not all about that, there's such a thing as pride in your work, he can't possibly be proud of what he's delivering, which leads me to think he doesn't give a toss, all he cares about is his buddies at the top and his players, oh and of course what he's getting, everything else is but a distraction, it's clear to me he doesn't give a damn about the fans, his patronising words and the way he's quick to point the finger are testament to that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you think Pep, Klopp or Jose would struggle with the set up we have here? I actually think Jose is envious of what we have here. It's why he's gone to Utd as well. I think if we bring in a someone with a vision, they'd have the freedom to work how they want. Or at least I hope. That's the sort of conditions Wenger walked into when he arrived and here are. The clubs molded in his image. If he didn't wanted to unburden himself and focus purely on what's going on on the pitch, I don't think he'd be denied that.

I think Wenger's replacement will walk into a healthy set up so long as they are hungry for success. I'm more so worried about who we appoint and the process. It's a problem if Wenger appoints his successor but can we trust the Board full of non football men to identify the right man? It's a tricky one.

I said job description, not liberty. I doubt any manager would entertain the idea of hiring a bunch of yes-men and then performing every role themselves. I doubt most managers could give a shit about the cost of a player provided they get the player. Things would have to change dramatically under a new manager and that useless bunch of fucks who are raking up all the cash might actually have to start earning some of it. Can you really be focused on winning if you are a jack of just about every fucking trade in the club? I'm just surprised Wenger doesn't pick himself to play on match days.

[Letters]

So that goes back to the question, why does Wenger accept such low standards? As somebody else has already asked, where is his ambition, his pride? And if he has no ambition and no pride then can he really be doing the best he's capable of?

I don't know what you mean by 'accept' low standards? Who wants their bosses to be more demanding?
I think he is more demanding of himself though and I think his perennial failure hurts him but I don't think he's capable of doing more.
It's obvious why he hasn't been sacked, a better question is why hasn't he resigned. I think that's because he thinks he can still do a good job.
Every season now is becoming like a double or quits with the fans.

[Globalgunner]

The difference between us and almost every other club is that the owners of other clubs really want to win things, even modest clubs like Everton and Spuds, they keep fine tuning their organisation in pursuit of this. Our club is just another francjhise in the portfolio of an American who simply wants to make money. In the US ironically they run their sports on a socialist principle... Everybody makes money, even if you come bottom of the league. When you come last next season you are given first pick of the best new players.

Kroenke doesnt care at all. Arsenal are the only club he has that has won anything in 10 years 2 FA cups:trophy::trophy:

[Goonermerree]

Have we bought anybody decent yet?

[Power n Glory]

I said job description, not liberty. I doubt any manager would entertain the idea of hiring a bunch of yes-men and then performing every role themselves. I doubt most managers could give a shit about the cost of a player provided they get the player. Things would have to change dramatically under a new manager and that useless bunch of fucks who are raking up all the cash might actually have to start earning some of it. Can you really be focused on winning if you are a jack of just about every fucking trade in the club? I'm just surprised Wenger doesn't pick himself to play on match days.

But what's the job description? Do you think this has been imposed on Wenger or is it self imposed? Wouldn't a top manager walk in and be able to impose his ideas of what makes a top club just as Wenger did when appointed? If we were appoint Pep or Ancelotti, two coaches that have worked at the biggest clubs and that's our aim as a club is to get to that sort of level, wouldn't we be willing to listen to new ideas?

Looking at the small changes made around the club with the introduction of new tech like those red zone vest things, the new stat machine that collects data, going beyond tech and touring America and Asia during preseason, appointing new youth development coaches...aren't those signs of a club looking to evolve? I think it's personnel problem more than a structural problem. I don't think there are enough people around the club that really know football and the one guy that does is totally out of touch and outdated. He's a dinosaur. Appointing former players as coaches seems like an attempt to try and change the culture and bring in fresh blood but we really need Wenger to really freshen up.

[Marc Overmars]

Every season now is becoming like a double or quits with the fans.

That's why the fanbase is so divided. Quits was called a long time ago but fans like you keep doubling in hope. No offence.

[Letters]

That's why the fanbase is so divided. Quits was called a long time ago but fans like you keep doubling in hope. No offence.

Keep? I've made my position on Wenger very clear.

[Kano]

I agree with your point as regards the highlighted text - and the failings in Wenger's methods can't fairly be attributed to him lacking a will to win. But I don't think his obvious reluctance to pay what has become the going rate for additions to his team that he clearly sees the need for is a subjective qualification to this. It is an objective failing. You might say generally that whether or not reinforcements are needed is a subjective decision for the manager that is difficult to fit into the 'doing the best he can' judgment call, but we are looking at a trend here with Arsenal that has undoubtedly denied us chances of league success. For this reason I don't see why his failings and obstinacy in the transfer market should be regarded as anything other than a failure to do the best possible job of making us competitive. The evidence is that he chooses not to spend what is necessary; and therefore deliberately takes risks with his squad, not that he has been forced to do so and is doing his best in straightened circumstances.

I think it still remains subjective because of how you measure success. Most of us fans refer to winning trophies as the only true sign of success at a club like Arsenal, whereas it seems to be that Wenger doesn't see that as the entire, 100% end game of what he is trying to achieve season-on-season. If he refuses to pay market rates to buy players, from his point of view, he would say he is working in the best interests of the club and doing the best job financially. Whether we believe he should or shouldn't be isn't the point. But what he views as best set of methods to reach a successful level. You would assume given we are going round in circles that he is happy with his approach and sees no reason to change them. It's all subjective thinking ultimately, which is why you have fans still arguing for and against him staying at the club. Whether we agree with that or not is down to us. I agree about the transfer failings, squad management etc but clearly he believes fully in his approach and what some of us may call a mistake, he'll disagree entirely.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ok. Do you think if we were to have signed up Klopp or Pepp they'd have a problem with this freedom? Jose even? Do you think they'd struggle and go 12 years without the league title?

I don't think they'd accept that kind of role in the first place, why would any of them want to concern themselves with for instance the amount the club pays for a transfer. It should be for the manager to decide what player he wants and then the club to buy that player for the manager.

They'd want to solely concern themselves with things a football manager should concern themselves about. This is what i said to you on Monday, no decent manager would want to take up this job because although they want freedom to do the job the way they see fit, there has to be some kind of structure in place.

[Kano]

It's not all about that, there's such a thing as pride in your work, he can't possibly be proud of what he's delivering, which leads me to think he doesn't give a toss, all he cares about is his buddies at the top and his players, oh and of course what he's getting, everything else is but a distraction, it's clear to me he doesn't give a damn about the fans, his patronising words and the way he's quick to point the finger are testament to that.

And yet you believe he'd be a nice person to meet with on a one to one basis. If I thought all of those things and more, as you do, about somebody, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know what you mean by 'accept' low standards? Who wants their bosses to be more demanding?
I think he is more demanding of himself though and I think his perennial failure hurts him but I don't think he's capable of doing more.
It's obvious why he hasn't been sacked, a better question is why hasn't he resigned. I think that's because he thinks he can still do a good job.
Every season now is becoming like a double or quits with the fans.

Actually a lot of people like having demanding bosses, knowing that the boss demands high standards (as long as they are not unreasonable standards) gives you the push you need, rather than a totally unstructured, disorganised environment where there is no pressure to succeed apart from within and after a while that's not an environment where self-motivation can prevail for long.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And yet you believe he'd be a nice person to meet with on a one to one basis. If I thought all of those things and more, as you do, about somebody, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near them.

I think he's a human being, and it's human nature that if nobody else is pushing you....it's hard to always push yourself.

How many of GB's gold medallists would succeed purely on self-determination rather than coaches that keep them constantly encouraged and motivated

[Goonermerree]

Surely going for as many trophies as you can, finishing the highest you can and going the furthest you can to achieve that is the measure of success. Everyone know we should have won at least a couple of titles since we last won it, but we haven't strengthened the team enough to do so. We should have strengthened in January when we saw what was happening to the other top teams. The club wouldn't have been bankrupted by buying decent players. The trouble with Wenger, he wants world class players for bargain bin prices and it just isn't going to happen, so we end up with the dross.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think they'd accept that kind of role in the first place, why would any of them want to concern themselves with for instance the amount the club pays for a transfer. It should be for the manager to decide what player he wants and then the club to buy that player for the manager.

They'd want to solely concern themselves with things a football manager should concern themselves about. This is what i said to you on Monday, no decent manager would want to take up this job because although they want freedom to do the job the way they see fit, there has to be some kind of structure in place.

You're assuming that's all been imposed on him.


“I personally believe the only way to be a manager is to spend the club’s money as if it were your own,” he said, “because if you don’t do that you’re susceptible to too many mistakes.

“You make big decisions and I believe you have to act like it’s your own money, like you’re the owner of the club and you can identify completely with the club.

“Because if you don’t do that I think you cannot go far.”
There are many hints in his quotes that show what this isn't something imposed on him. He has strong convictions about the way a club should be run and there are plenty of others that go this far. The clubs been adapted to suit his beliefs. It's not the other way round. From the early days when he changed what the players should eat and changing diets to what we see now with the wage structure and transfers.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Surely going for as many trophies as you can, finishing the highest you can and going the furthest you can to achieve that is the measure of success. Everyone know we should have won at least a couple of titles since we last won it, but we haven't strengthened the team enough to do so. We should have strengthened in January when we saw what was happening to the other top teams. The club wouldn't have been bankrupted by buying decent players. The trouble with Wenger, he wants world class players for bargain bin prices and it just isn't going to happen, so we end up with the dross.

If you are 66, and your bosses make it clear there is no expectation on you to achieve anything more than what you are doing. And actually by spending lots of money this is no more likely to guarantee success for you, but rather more likely to cement the impression that you are past it...what would you do?.
Does Wenger want us to win the title still? yeah and i think he's probably disappointed when we fail, but i genuinely think he's afraid to spend more money only to end up with the same result. At no other job would he have the unchecked power he has at Arsenal, which is actually what motivates him to stay with the club more than the money.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If it were me my preference would be to allow a manager to bring in some of his own team, but also work with coaches and other staff employed by the club (like Shad Forsythe and Wim Jonker who were employed by Gazidis)....that money would be available to them to spend on players and that whilst the choice of players would come from a list the manager and his scouting staff devised....that the club would set the valuation for those players.

A new manager would be given a three year contract, and that an extension would only be considered if meaningful progress in football competitions were being made (having actually challenged for the title rather than falling away in february/march, reaching at least the semi finals of the european cup etc), an extension would be offered only at the end of that three year period unless a major trophy like the premier league or the european cup was won.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're assuming that's all been imposed on him.


There are many hints in his quotes that show what this isn't something imposed on him. He has strong convictions about the way a club should be run and there are plenty of others that go this far. The clubs been adapted to suit his beliefs. It's not the other way round. From the early days when he changed what the players should eat and changing diets to what we see now with the wage structure and transfers.

Whether it's been imposed on him or not is irrelevant (in fact I'm fairly sure it hasn't been imposed on him but the fact that he has chosen to take on those responsibilities without someone stepping in and intervening is even more concerning) the fact that a club is prepared to operate in that fashion is deeply, deeply concerning.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Have we bought anybody decent yet?

You need to go to the transfer thread to find out.

[Özim]

And yet you believe he'd be a nice person to meet with on a one to one basis. If I thought all of those things and more, as you do, about somebody, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near them.

I'd take everything he says with a pinch of salt based on what he says at the moment, it's hard to dislike someone when you meet them unless they are clearly being nasty and arrogant, maybe he would be, but I can't judge him until I meet him in that respect.

I'm not willing to judge someone without meeting them, it might be that if I met him he could be perfectly charming, likewise he could be not my cup of tea, but without meeting him in person it's hard to judge.

What I can say is he is a poor manager and the way he does and talks about things football related is somewhat embarassing, as a football manager I don't rate him and don't respect the way he handles himself in public and the things he comes out with and consequently backtracks on, nor the way he points the finger at others.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't dislike him personally, but there's no question he has become more remote, aloof and arrogant because the club have made him untouchable

He resents questions from journalists "who are you to question my methods, no-one else is allowed to" attitude is very prevalent.

[Power n Glory]

Whether it's been imposed on him or not is irrelevant (in fact I'm fairly sure it hasn't been imposed on him but the fact that he has chosen to take on those responsibilities without someone stepping in and intervening is even more concerning) the fact that a club is prepared to operate in that fashion is deeply, deeply concerning.

Of course it's relevant. Fergie had the same sort of freedom at Utd but had the sense to evolve and delegate. I think if we were to sign a top manager that has experience at other top clubs, they’d have the same sort of sense to do likewise. If the Board are open to new ideas, we’ll be in good shape. We’d be in serious trouble if they did decide to impose ideas on the new coach because I don’t think any up there has a clue about football. It’s the blind leading the blind. Wenger is the only one at that level that knows football but he’s totally out of date. I’ve said the same to in my post to NQ. The key is to be as open and receptive to change like we were when Wenger first arrived here in 96.

[Özim]

I don't dislike him personally, but there's no question he has become more remote, aloof and arrogant because the club have made him untouchable

He resents questions from journalists "who are you to question my methods, no-one else is allowed to" attitude is very prevalent.

There's an arrogance about him now and I agree his untouchable position is the main contributing factor, he's the author of his own downfall by the way he behaves, talks and of course manages.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Of course it's relevant. Fergie had the same sort of freedom at Utd but had the sense to evolve and delegate. I think if we were to sign a top manager that has experience at other top clubs, they’d have the same sort of sense to do likewise. If the Board are open to new ideas, we’ll be in good shape. We’d be in serious trouble if they did decide to impose ideas on the new coach because I don’t think any up there has a clue about football. It’s the blind leading the blind. Wenger is the only one at that level that knows football but he’s totally out of date. I’ve said the same to in my post to NQ. The key is to be as open and receptive to change like we were when Wenger first arrived here in 96.

The responsibility Wenger has over the day to day running of the club far exceeds what Ferguson had at United, this is partly because Wenger cannot delegate and it's partly because he has taken up aspects of David Dein's role (in terms of transfer and contract extension negotiations). No club should be allowing this, and if the club are happy for Wenger to have this responsibility why would they not try and give the same responsibility to whoever comes after him.

No one is talking about imposing ideas, we are talking about a board letting the manager know he has a boss and has expectations to fulfil, and for instance if we had a manager who is reluctant to spend money when it was needed someone like Gazidis would have more leverage to say "actually you need to do this".

Kroenke is happy as long as we finish 4th, if a new manager is failing to exceed this....is he really going to let Gazidis relieve him of his job after a certain time?

[mastermind84]

Giroud is a middle of the road striker, only an incompetent manager like Wenger would be happy to rely on him and not sign anyone, any other normal manager would have signed a striker a long time ago, as usual though it will blow up in his face, it always does, but he never recognises it.
I don't think highly of Giroud but he is not a middle of the road striker. He is a 2nd tier striker when Arsene's system depends on a top tier striker.

Having Giroud leading the line could win the premiership with a better manager, imo. If your "system" needs top tier talent to succeed then how good is your system?

[Özim]

I don't think highly of Giroud but he is not a middle of the road striker. He is a 2nd tier striker when Arsene's system depends on a top tier striker.

Having Giroud leading the line could win the premiership with a better manager, imo. If your "system" needs top tier talent to succeed then how good is your system?

He went something like 15 games without a goal, that's middle of the road for me, that's not even 2nd tier, especially not for a team like us that create a fair few chances.

We could never win the PL with Giroud up front, he's a sub, someone who could be rotated when you needed something different nothing more, to win the PL you either need goals from all over the team (several players who can score goals) or a top striker, we have neither.

[Power n Glory]

The responsibility has over the day to day running of the club far exceeds what Ferguson had, this is partly because Wenger cannot delegate and it's partly because he has taken up aspects of David Dein's role (in terms of transfer and contract extension negotiations). No club should be allowing this, and if the club are happy for Wenger to have this responsibility why would they not try and give the same responsibility to whoever comes after him.

No one is talking about imposing ideas, we are talking about a board letting the manager know he has a boss and has expectations to fulfil, and for instance if we had a manager who is reluctant to spend money when it was needed someone like Gazidis would have more leverage to say "actually you need to do this".

This is all over the place and slightly muddled. There are two conflicting ides going on in that post.

So the club have allowed Wenger to work a certain way because that’s how he likes it. He’s taken on more than what Fergie took on, but that’s the difference between Fergie and Wenger. Fergie had the sense to delegate. He worked with freedom like Wenger does at Arsenal, but he delegates. So let’s assume our Board believes it’s important for a manger to work with freedom and it’s their job to support him with resources. Why would they impose something on a new manager that goes against that principle? They only allowed Wenger to work how he liked. They didn’t impose anything on him so I can’t see them pushing something on a new manager if that’s not what he wants. Especially if new manager is someone like Pep that comes with experience at the top.

[Özim]

I don't think we'd have any problem attracting quality new manager, we're a bit of a challenge, a team who haven't won anything of note for 12 years but have all the infrastructure and resources to compete if we're managed properly. A new manager would get support financially if he wanted but unlike Wenger who was here before all of that lt above him he'll have certain targets and in all likelyness will take more pride in his work and will want to win and do everything he can do to win.

I hope Wenger isn't involved in choosing a new manager or doesn't have a say in the day to day running of the club though, because if he does we can forget about being competitive, the guy is a control freak and won't allow anyone to do things differently to the way he thinks they should be done, I suspect he'd bring a Wenger clone in as well, doesn't bear thinking about.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think highly of Giroud but he is not a middle of the road striker. He is a 2nd tier striker when Arsene's system depends on a top tier striker.

Having Giroud leading the line could win the premiership with a better manager, imo. If your "system" needs top tier talent to succeed then how good is your system?

I agree to an extent but Giroud's goal droughts and drop in confidence every year suggests something deeper. I think we could get more out of him with a better system but just looking at his performances for France kind of backs up the criticism.

[Özim]

I agree to an extent but Giroud's goal droughts and drop in confidence every year suggests something deeper. I think we could get more out of him with a better system but just looking at his performances for France kind of backs up the criticism.

That horrible attempt for France when he was clean through and only had to lift his head and pass it right summed him up, no vision and when the pressure is on folds like most of our team.

You just can't rely on players like Giroud, every season he has a goal drought, then he scores a few and has another drought, most of his goals are concentrated over a few games, you get no consistency from him at all.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This is all over the place and slightly muddled. There are two conflicting ides going on in that post.

So the club have allowed Wenger to work a certain way because that’s how he likes it. He’s taken on more than what Fergie took on, but that’s the difference between Fergie and Wenger. Fergie had the sense to delegate. He worked with freedom like Wenger does at Arsenal, but he delegates. So let’s assume our Board believes it’s important for a manger to work with freedom and it’s their job to support him with resources. Why would they impose something on a new manager that goes against that principle? They only allowed Wenger to work how he liked. They didn’t impose anything on him so I can’t see them pushing something on a new manager if that’s not what he wants. Especially if new manager is someone like Pep that comes with experience at the top.

It's not confused at all, they are not supporting Wenger they are leaving it all up to him....the one and two are not the same things

I used the example of GB Medallists and their coaches earlier, how supportive would a coach be if they said "well the amount of training you do for an event is totally your choice"....that's not giving support, that's saying "do what you like i don't care".

If a manager wants to extend the contract of a player, the board supports the manager by having a contract negotiation team

If a manager wants to sign new players, the board supports the manager by having a transfer team ready to negotiate a price with the club and personal terms with the player and his agent.

It's not being supportive if Wenger chooses to handle it himself to let him handle it, it's saying "phew thankfully we don't have to do anything"

And if you don't think a manager should have certain expectations that he needs to meet in order to keep his job, why on earth would the manager do anything but the bare minimum. This is not an environment conducive to success, Wenger may well have taken the responsibilities upon himself but the club has shown either weakness or disinterest not to intercede and say "sorry this is not part of your remit".

[Özim]

And if you don't think a manager should have certain expectations that he needs to meet in order to keep his job, why on earth would the manager do anything but the bare minimum.

Pride, a sense of achievement, wanting to be remembered as a top manager who achieved this, that and the other. Sure some people would sit on their bascksides and do nothing, you always have losers like this in life, but others would have the pride to do their best and try and succeed, particularly in football where the incentive is partially personal achievement.

[Power n Glory]

It's not confused at all, they are not supporting Wenger they are leaving it all up to him....the one and two are not the same things

I used the example of GB Medallists and their coaches earlier, how supportive would a coach be if they said "well the amount of training you do for an event is totally your choice"....that's not giving support, that's saying "do what you like i don't care".

If a manager wants to extend the contract of a player, the board supports the manager by having a contract negotiation team

If a manager wants to sign new players, the board supports the manager by having a transfer team ready to negotiate a price with the club and personal terms with the player and his agent.

It's not being supportive if Wenger chooses to handle it himself to let him handle it, it's saying "phew thankfully we don't have to do anything"

And if you don't think a manager should have certain expectations that he needs to meet in order to keep his job, why on earth would the manager do anything but the bare minimum. This is not an environment conducive to success, Wenger may well have taken the responsibilities upon himself but the club has shown either weakness or disinterest not to intercede and say "sorry this is not part of your remit".

Wait....do you think there is no team behind this and Wenger does all this by himself?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wait....do you think there is no team behind this and Wenger does all this by himself?

He gets involved personally in both, and my contention is that he shouldn't

As for the transfer team it's Wenger and Dick Law acting as his proxy as the club lawyer

[Power n Glory]

Does anyone else here think we have a one man band physically doing everything? :lol:

[Power n Glory]

He gets involved personally in both, and my contention is that he shouldn't

As for the transfer team it's Wenger and Dick Law acting as his proxy as the club lawyer

Having the final say doesn't mean he's doing it on his own or just with Dick Law.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Pride, a sense of achievement, wanting to be remembered as a top manager who achieved this, that and the other. Sure some people would sit on their bascksides and do nothing, you always have losers like this in life, but others would have the pride to do their best and try and succeed, particularly in football where the incentive is partially personal achievement.

I think human nature dictates that motivation to be the best only comes so far from within, it requires encouragement and sometimes a push from others

Wenger had that from Dein and Fiszman....now he only has himself a man at the end of his career, how many men of retirement age are open to new ideas and new ways of doing things....he is in fact relying on his own instincts and no-one to suggest to him that there is any other way of doing things.
Is he being selfish by not realising this and stepping down? Probably but again that just makes him a human being we all can be hubristic and stubborn especially when there is no-one to keep us grounded.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Does anyone else here think we have a one man band physically doing everything? :lol:

It's one man making all the decisions and calling all the shots on every minutiae of detail, which is micro managing.

The point i am making is that if Wenger wants a player, why is it up to him what the value of that player is?....or if he wants a player to sign a contract extension why is it up to him the terms of that contract?. Both are the very essence of micro managing....the club's finances are not and should not be his concern.

[Power n Glory]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/4v5yo5/interesting_quotes_from_arsenal_exloanee_kim/

It worth a read. Arseblog mentioned this some weeks back.


"It was transfer day and a rumour of a new player had leaked. The training facilities were filled with supporters, journalists and tv was transmitting live. When we arrived at Heathrow, we had to drive to a field and switch cars so that no one would recognise the vehicle. Everyone was nice to me, and I get training clothes and number 29. I was sent to a team physician for the obligatory medical exam. While the physician is going through the tests, I'm sitting in the cafeteria, drinking a cup of washy English coffee. I'm dressed in the club colours, in the civilian outfit of the professional football player, meaning a t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops. Players pass by on the way to today's training. I knew a few of them, as they were French, and we small-talk a bit. The physician fetches me, and I'm driven quickly to a hospital for a X-ray exam. Something's wrong. We return to the training facilities. I'm put in a situation that reminds me of a talent show on tv. I'm standing in front of a jury, in Arsenal clothes, the cd with my X-ray images, and bad posture. In front of me sits the team physician, the sporting director, and the powerful manager Arsene Wenger, who has run the club with an iron fist and a low-key attitude for almost 20 years. The physician starts speaking. He understands that Arsenal is a big thing for me and that my hopes have been lit, but the back problem is too bad, and he's sorry. He lays down the facts. There are three cases of vertebral fractures, and I'm out for atleast 4-6 weeks. I'm shocked - disappointed, but I understood. Against the evidence of the X-ray images, neither boyhood dreams or arguments help. I understand. 'If you're injured, you're injured', I say, but in truth I was angry as hell. There's silence in the room. Wenger hasn't said anything. He hasn't even looked at his colleagues as they inform me of their logical verdicts. He thinks for himself. I wait for him to say something. He sighs, and says 'The transfer windows shuts in a few hours. It's impossible to find a replacement. Either I take you or no one.' Surprised, the others turn to the big boss. No one knows how he'll continue, but they know that his words are law. It's evident that he has not anchored his decision among the rest of the staff. Wenger decides. "You'll stay, heal, and train. I'll take you when you're fit."

[Özim]

I think human nature dictates that motivation to be the best only comes so far from within, it requires encouragement and sometimes a push from others

Wenger had that from Dein and Fiszman....now he only has himself a man at the end of his career, how many men of retirement age are open to new ideas and new ways of doing things....he is in fact relying on his own instincts and no-one to suggest to him that there is any other way of doing things.
Is he being selfish by not realising this and stepping down? Probably but again that just makes him a human being we all can be hubristic and stubborn especially when there is no-one to keep us grounded.

He's gone 12 years without a title, there's his management record to think about and the fact he must know people think he's not up to the job anymore and proving them wrong. Problem is he doesn't seem to care about the football side much, he only seems to care about the finances, Ferguson kept himself motivated, he was a winner not content with coming 2nd, when the billionaires arrived he saw that as a challenge, a mountain he had to climb and he did so.

Wenger just doesn't care about on the field success enough, he's become use to losing and it no longer hurts the way it did when we only lost occasionally and were competitive, even thumpings which most top managers would be embarassed about are all in a days works for Wenger, it doesn't phase him.

Money is his motivator, making money for the club, for himself and making sure there's a profit at the end of the season, whether we succeed on the pitch is neither here nor there for him.

[Özim]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/4v5yo5/interesting_quotes_from_arsenal_exloanee_kim/

It worth a read. Arseblog mentioned this some weeks back.

Wenger to a tea, cheap and happy to accept mediocrity


The transfer windows shuts in a few hours. It's impossible to find a replacement. Either I take you or no one.'

Pretty awful planning to have to settle for an injured player because you've left it to the last minute and haven't done your homework, he's cheap and complacent, there's been quite a few very questionable signings over the years, but very few too quality ones, for all his words about only signing super super quality players who are better than what we have, that's rarely ever been the case.

[Niall_Quinn]

Does anyone else here think we have a one man band physically doing everything? :lol:

No, don't be so silly. Stan takes care of buying the ranches, Wenger has nothing to do with that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He's gone 12 years without a title, there's his management record to think about and the fact he must know people think he's not up to the job anymore and proving them wrong. Problem is he doesn't seem to care about the football side much, he only seems to care about the finances, Ferguson kept himself motivated, he was a winner not content with coming 2nd, when the billionaires arrived he saw that as a challenge, a mountain he had to climb and he did so.

Wenger just doesn't care about on the field success enough, he's become use to losing and it no longer hurts the way it did when we only lost occasionally and were competitive, even thumpings which most top managers would be embarassed about are all in a days works for Wenger, it doesn't phase him.

Money is his motivator, making money for the club, for himself and making sure there's a profit at the end of the season, whether we succeed on the pitch is neither here nor there for him.

In Wenger's mind the years between 2005 and 2014 were a success because he kept the club in the top four which it needed during a period of being financially squeezed.

There is no question his hunger and desire has dulled, but again the comparison to Ferguson doesn't work because Ferguson would have been sacked by Manchester United long before he had gone nine years without a major trophy

[Özim]

In Wenger's mind the years between 2005 and 2014 were a success because he kept the club in the top four which it needed during a period of being financially squeezed.

There is no question his hunger and desire has dulled, but again the comparison to Ferguson doesn't work because Ferguson would have been sacked by Manchester United long before he had gone nine years without a major trophy

In historical terms those aren't achievements unlike the more tangible trophies, coming 4th isn't going to be remembered in 20 years time, so he might think it's an achievement but history doesn't and it won't appear on his management record anywhere and won't count when considering who are the best managers ever.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In historical terms those aren't achievements unlike the more tangible trophies, coming 4th isn't going to be remembered in 20 years time, so he might think it's an achievement but history doesn't and it won't appear on his management record anywhere and won't count when considering who are the best managers ever.

No but i think in 20 years time at the very worst he will be remembered as the manager who won us three titles early on in his time at the club, and kept us on a sure footing even though he stayed at the club too long.

Despite there being a very sour relationship between him and the fans currently, long term he still isn't in that much immediate danger of damaging his legacy.

[Özim]

No but i think in 20 years time at the very worst he will be remembered as the manager who won us three titles early on in his time at the club, and kept us on a sure footing even though he stayed at the club too long.

Despite there being a very sour relationship between him and the fans currently, long term he still isn't in that much immediate danger of damaging his legacy.

To put it bluntly 3 titles in 20 years isn't a great achievement, it's fairly average, when people look back at his record people will wonder what the fuss was about because his record is anything amazing on paper, I'll give you he won cups as well, but as we know those aren't valued in the same way these days.

[Power n Glory]

It's one man making all the decisions and calling all the shots on every minutiae of detail, which is micro managing.

The point i am making is that if Wenger wants a player, why is it up to him what the value of that player is?....or if he wants a player to sign a contract extension why is it up to him the terms of that contract?. Both are the very essence of micro managing....the club's finances are not and should not be his concern.

It’s pretty logical. Example. An extreme one but bear with me.

We have three players due for contract renewals and £100k in wages to spare a week. The contract team talk to the player’s agents and the demands are as followed.

Ozil wants an extra £50k
Sanchez want an extra £50k
Walcott wants an extra £60k :lol:

What’s the solution? None of them are budging or willing to take lower their fess so who should make the final call? What does Dick Law or some lawyer really know about football? Besides comparing what others in the club earn or what you’ve heard rival stars earn at other clubs, who makes the final call on who will lose out? Would you want that decision to be left to a bunch of lawyers? They could allocate the £60k to Walcott and risk losing both Ozil and Sanchez. A bonehead move but how else would they know what a player is worth to the team without consulting the manager and finding out how much he’s worth to the team? That’s a clear cut example where the choice should be obvious but you should get the point. I wouldn’t want someone so removed from the football making a final call like that.

I don’t have a problem with the manager having that sort of control. He should be able to make that sort of call. It’s just problematic when you have someone like Wenger in charge. He’s out of touch and his valuation of players makes no sense. Agreeing to pay out loads for undeveloped kids but low balling your biggest stars isn’t smart.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It’s pretty logical. Example. An extreme one but bear with me.

We have three players due for contract renewals and £100k in wages to spare a week. The contract team talk to the player’s agents and the demands are as followed.

Ozil wants an extra £50k
Sanchez want an extra £50k
Walcott wants an extra £60k :lol:

What’s the solution? None of them are budging or willing to take lower their fess so who should make the final call? What does Dick Law or some lawyer really know about football? Besides comparing what others in the club earn or what you’ve heard rival stars earn at other clubs, who makes the final call on who will lose out? Would you want that decision to be left to a bunch of lawyers? They could allocate the £60k to Walcott and risk losing both Ozil and Sanchez. A bonehead move but how else would they know what a player is worth to the team without consulting the manager and finding out how much he’s worth to the team? That’s a clear cut example where the choice should be obvious but you should get the point. I wouldn’t want someone so removed from the football making a final call like that.

I don’t have a problem with the manager having that sort of control. He should be able to make that sort of call. It’s just problematic when you have someone like Wenger in charge. He’s out of touch and his valuation of players makes no sense. Agreeing to pay out loads for undeveloped kids but low balling your biggest stars isn’t smart.

The point is there is absolutely no reason for us to be in that kind of predicament because we have the money as is stated all the time

And the people responsible for negotiating wouldn't be removed from football, they would be part of the footballing infrastructure of the club

I do not believe Pep Guardiola either at Barcelona or Bayern Munich had to make such small decisions, his decision was do i want this player at the club yes or no, if i want them at the club get them signed up to a new contract and if i don't try and get them transfered to another club which would be handled by the footballing staff at Barcelona.

The manager is responsible for the players: the training, tactics, a game plan on the field and deciding what players if any can improve the side he already has to work with.....

Dealing with Contract negotiations, Dealing with Transfer negotiations....the only decision a manager should be having to make is Do I want this player? yes or no....get it sorted.

[Power n Glory]

The point is there is absolutely no reason for us to be in that kind of predicament because we have the money as is stated all the time

And the people responsible for negotiating wouldn't be removed from football, they would be part of the footballing infrastructure of the club

I do not believe Pep Guardiola either at Barcelona or Bayern Munich had to make such small decisions, his decision was do i want this player at the club yes or no, if i want them at the club get them signed up to a new contract and if i don't try and get them transfered to another club which would be handled by the footballing staff at Barcelona.

The manager is responsible for the players: the training, tactics, a game plan on the field and deciding what players if any can improve the side he already has to work with.....

Dealing with Contract negotiations, Dealing with Transfer negotiations....the only decision a manager should be having to make is Do I want this player? yes or no....get it sorted.


Within reason. Do you think we have the same sort of money as Barca and Real Madrid? We have a budget but even our rivals wouldn't throw silly money at undeveloped kids that would swell up their wage bill. You're talking about a small fraction of clubs that have the privilege of unlimited funds. You don't think Klopp at Dortmund or Simone have to manage such issues and make smart choices?

It's not even a case that Wenger has to be that involved. Just make the final call as he does now. But make wiser decisions.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Within reason. Do you think we have the same sort of money as Barca and Real Madrid? We have a budget but even our rivals wouldn't throw silly money at undeveloped kids that would swell up their wage bill. You're talking about a small fraction of clubs that have the privilege of unlimited funds. You don't think Klopp at Dortmund or Simone have to manage such issues and make smart choices?

It's not even a case that Wenger has to be that involved. Just make the final call as he does now. But make wiser decisions.

Again why does he have to make the final call

It should be obvious than an 18 year old prospect isn't going to be on the same money as the 25 year old world class player.

It doesn't require the manager to make that delineation.

[Edinburgh Gooner]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3745341/Arsenal-talks-Atletico-Madrid-40m-rated-Jose-Gimenez-valuation-stumbling-block.html

Daily mail"exclusive" we are in talks with athletico Madrid for another centre half, more expensive than mustafi.

[Özim]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3745341/Arsenal-talks-Atletico-Madrid-40m-rated-Jose-Gimenez-valuation-stumbling-block.html

Daily mail"exclusive" we are in talks with athletico Madrid for another centre half, more expensive than mustafi.

Could never see this happening, we'll never pay that kind of money for a defender, indeed if you believe the Mustafi thing we won't even pay close to 30 million.

[Kano]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3745341/Arsenal-talks-Atletico-Madrid-40m-rated-Jose-Gimenez-valuation-stumbling-block.html

Daily mail"exclusive" we are in talks with athletico Madrid for another centre half, more expensive than mustafi.

This is absolutely, without doubt, going to happen.

[Power n Glory]

Again why does he have to make the final call

It should be obvious than an 18 year old prospect isn't going to be on the same money as the 25 year old world class player.

It doesn't require the manager to make that delineation.

Is it that obvious to Arsene Wenger who is stubborn and way too much faith in his own ability to spot taleny? What if he thinks this 18 year old is the next Henry? Who can really question him on that given his track record?

We're looking at a manager that is on the wane. It was fine to trust his judgement for these sort of things in his prime but not anymore. To be honest, I think it's odd for a manager not to be consulted when negotiations aren't going well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is it that obvious to Arsene Wenger who is stubborn and way too much faith in his own ability to spot taleny? What if he thinks this 18 year old is the next Henry? Who can really question him on that given his track record?

We're looking at a manager that is on the wane. It was fine to trust his judgement for these sort of things in his prime but not anymore. To be honest, I think it's odd for a manager not to be consulted when negotiations aren't going well.

Only if it necessitates it because the player is unsure if he wants to remain at the club

If they are thrashing out a financial package it need not concern the manager, we are not talking about compartmentalisation the negotiating team will be aware of how much the manager rates the player and will negotiate accordingly.

[mastermind84]

He went something like 15 games without a goal, that's middle of the road for me, that's not even 2nd tier, especially not for a team like us that create a fair few chances.

We could never win the PL with Giroud up front, he's a sub, someone who could be rotated when you needed something different nothing more, to win the PL you either need goals from all over the team (several players who can score goals) or a top striker, we have neither.
DDA had similar droughts at Chelsea too. Not saying Giroud is as good but finishing is really about luck.

If you look around Europe, there are not many strikers that are better than him and if he was on the market right now he would be £35-45 million player. That may say more about the dearth of current strikers but he isn't middle of the road.


I agree to an extent but Giroud's goal droughts and drop in confidence every year suggests something deeper. I think we could get more out of him with a better system but just looking at his performances for France kind of backs up the criticism.
Exactly. I don't think highly of Giroud at all but he is often used as if he is Andy Carroll, which he clearly is not.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3745341/Arsenal-talks-Atletico-Madrid-40m-rated-Jose-Gimenez-valuation-stumbling-block.html

Daily mail"exclusive" we are in talks with athletico Madrid for another centre half, more expensive than mustafi.

There will be plenty of names out there whose valuations we don't agree with.

[Power n Glory]

Only if it necessitates it because the player is unsure if he wants to remain at the club

If they are thrashing out a financial package it need not concern the manager, we are not talking about compartmentalisation the negotiating team will be aware of how much the manager rates the player and will negotiate accordingly.

I honestly don't see what the problem is. Well, that's a lie. I see what the problem is but the flaw isn't with the set up.

I don't know how much Wenger is involved with the details of a contract, but what's the problem with him having an overall say? You'd want someone like Stan or the negotiating team to make that final call without the manager being involved? Why? That's going the wrong way isn't it. Wouldn't the financial consequences take precedent over football? The guy with the football hat on should be trusted to make the right call. That should be Wenger. I can't imagine any other manager with this sort of trust and power putting finances over football.

I think of Klopp at Dortmund with that Gotze situation. If it were possible to offer the player whatever he wanted to keep him, why do otherwise? Leicester have just done it with Vardy. They put up a fight and offered him a new deal. No rubbish about 'we can't match the wages of clubs like Arsenal'. Fergie faced the same with Rooney and told the club to cough it up.

Why is that we're having to put measures in for Wenger to make the correct footballing decision? I don't get it. It's really backwards. We should be able to trust his judgement.

[Goonermerree]

Mahrez signs a 4 year deal with Leicester. That puts us all out of our misery those of us who still had lingering hopes of him coming.

[Marc Overmars]

Leicester will be nowhere this season and they got Vardy and more importantly Mahrez signed up. Impressive tbf.

[Özim]

Another BS rumour out the window, not too many left now, what BS rumour are we going to use to drag this on until the end of the window and then use the "no players available" sob story.

Leicester now a more attractive proposition than us, this club is absolutely pathetic.

[Özim]

Leicester will be nowhere this season and they got Vardy and more importantly Mahrez signed up. Impressive tbf.

Not so fussed about the one season wonder, but keeping Mahrez is impressive I agree.

[Munchies]

Mahrez :rose:

Good on him for staying, rewarded with a good deal too. Wouldn't join us either

[Marc Overmars]

Valencia's director has admitted they need the money from selling Mustafi to meet FFP regulations, hence the stand off in valuation.

[Kano]

Mahrez signs a 4 year deal with Leicester. That puts us all out of our misery those of us who still had lingering hopes of him coming.

It was always just media bullshit from the off, most likely set in motion by his agent eager to secure himself a new pay day and a pay rise for Mahrez after they had seen Vardy do the same.

[Kano]

Leicester will be nowhere this season and they got Vardy and more importantly Mahrez signed up. Impressive tbf.

Definitely a bit easier to do when you're champions tbf and stepping into the CL for the first time. Wouldn't surprise me if those deals have clauses that allow the players to look elsewhere if it all goes tits up.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I honestly don't see what the problem is. Well, that's a lie. I see what the problem is but the flaw isn't with the set up.

I don't know how much Wenger is involved with the details of a contract, but what's the problem with him having an overall say? You'd want someone like Stan or the negotiating team to make that final call without the manager being involved? Why? That's going the wrong way isn't it. Wouldn't the financial consequences take precedent over football? The guy with the football hat on should be trusted to make the right call. That should be Wenger. I can't imagine any other manager with this sort of trust and power putting finances over football.

I think of Klopp at Dortmund with that Gotze situation. If it were possible to offer the player whatever he wanted to keep him, why do otherwise? Leicester have just done it with Vardy. They put up a fight and offered him a new deal. No rubbish about 'we can't match the wages of clubs like Arsenal'. Fergie faced the same with Rooney and told the club to cough it up.

Why is that we're having to put measures in for Wenger to make the correct footballing decision? I don't get it. It's really backwards. We should be able to trust his judgement.

It's not about Wenger, neither is it about not trusting a managers judgement. It's about not dumping everything in the managers lap and the manager making a decision whether a player deserves a contract extension and being able to trust people to handle it for him (the way David Dein did at Arsenal). If the club decides it cannot or will not pay the player the wages he is demanding that is a matter for the club because it's the club and not the manager paying those wages, if it's a matter of in the case of Gotze that you cited being drawn to interest from a bigger club, a manager will obviously sit down with that player to persuade him to stay but that's not the same as contract negotiations.
And you say I don't see the problem with the manager having the final say? He is having the final say he has made the decision as to whether that player deserves another contract or not, and he's left the details in the hands of other people.

It's not always as simple as that, same with list of players a manager wants to buy...that player may not be affordable for the club but then it's for the manager to provide alternative names, and then say I want that player. And then leaving it to others to iron out the details, as with the above examples it's about being able to delegate. Half the problem starts because Wenger cannot delegate, but he's still an employee at the end of the day and if he himself is a barrier to transfers getting done the board if they cared would say "no Arsene leave it with us, we will get it done".
Wenger isn't a confrontational figure, he might not be happy about it but would accept it.

[Goonermerree]

Definitely a bit easier to do when you're champions tbf and stepping into the CL for the first time. Wouldn't surprise me if those deals have clauses that allow the players to look elsewhere if it all goes tits up.

According to Sky earlier it comes wit no buy out clauses.

[Goonermerree]

Arsenal are in talks with Atletico Madrid over defender Jose Gimenez, but his £40m valuation could be a stumbling block, the Daily Mail reports.
The 21-year-old is thought to have a release clause of around £56m, and he made 37 appearances under Diego Simeone last season.

From Sky. Oh somebody stop me from looking at the transfer stories!!!!!:fury: