Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations. [Archive] - Page 18

I am invisible

31-08-2016, 11:23 AM

Willock is highly rated but it's surely too soon for him. He looks about 13.

Wenger quotes from earlier in the season...

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/12/arsene-wenger-happy-to-play-chris-willock-in-arsenal-first-team-5748381/

Arsene Wenger happy to play Chris Willock in Arsenal first team

Arsene Wenger has backed Chris Willock to become Arsenal’s next big star.

The French coach believes that the talented 18-year-old is set for an incredible future.

And Wenger would have no problem giving the English winger an opportunity in the first team soon.

"Chris is a very gifted player with natural strength and natural talent," Wenger told the official site. "He has what you do not find very easily. He can have a go at people, can get past people in one on ones. We forget sometimes that the basis of team sport is to first be strong one against one and Chris has that quality."

"I believe that he has the needed character when he has his back to the wall to always respond in a very strong way. That’s a very important quality, to be able to play under pressure."

"Overall, I would be very comfortable to play him now but of course there is a lot of competition for places because there are players like [Theo] Walcott, Alexis [Sanchez] and [Danny] Welbeck in front of him at the moment."

"‘If I had to play him then I would have no fear in doing so. Next season I think he will be a player who will get to feature in the team."

...so I wouldn't rule it out.

Could definitely do with a bit of time down the gym, but the club website has his DOB down as 31 Jan, 1998, so he'll be 19 in 5 months - still very young, but we've fielded younger?

Power n Glory

31-08-2016, 11:24 AM

We should really snap up Isco. Play him wide until Ozil leaves.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

31-08-2016, 11:25 AM

I'm being greedy and I know it won't happen, but I would love it if there was just one more good surprise before the window closes.

Due to squad size no

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

31-08-2016, 11:26 AM

We should really snap up Isco. Play him wide until Ozil leaves.

I'd love that as well but think would necessitate another player leaving first

Gooner23

31-08-2016, 11:27 AM

Have only seen Willock a few times in the U21s but he looks a cut above the rest, hopefully he gets a start in the carling cup (or whatever its called)

Globalgunner

31-08-2016, 11:37 AM

Have only seen Willock a few times in the U21s but he looks a cut above the rest, hopefully he gets a start in the carling cup (or whatever its called)

Coca Cola Milk Carling Pepsico liquid Cup

31-08-2016, 11:45 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7FET5XmFow

Power n Glory

31-08-2016, 11:53 AM

I'd love that as well but think would necessitate another player leaving first

It looks like we already have players leaving. Wilshere and Gnarby plus Campbell has gone.

Kano

31-08-2016, 11:59 AM

https://youtu.be/HHXo25LUYJw

A lot more of this treatment needed in general

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

31-08-2016, 11:59 AM

It looks like we already have players leaving. Wilshere and Gnarby plus Campbell has gone.

True but even with that, add up the numbers in the squad we have and it adds up to 25

looks like for instance we are saddled with both debuchy and jenkinson

Özim

31-08-2016, 12:09 PM

Letters

31-08-2016, 12:11 PM

:lol:

Özim

31-08-2016, 12:13 PM

It looks like we already have players leaving. Wilshere and Gnarby plus Campbell has gone.

Loads have left, our squad is smaller than last season, Campbell, Rosicky, Arteta, Flamini, Chambers looks like Wilshere and Gnabry as well.

We've signed Perez, Mustafi and Xhaka and Holding (Asano can't play), so that's 7 out 4 in and Wellbeck is out long term as is Gabriel and Mertesacker.

Özim

31-08-2016, 12:13 PM

:lol:

:beer:

Kano

31-08-2016, 12:42 PM

Our youth academy is dreadful, the last worldy to come out of there was Ashley Cole and that was probably before Wengers' 10 year plan (whatever happened to that), don't really trust us to discover any decent players at the moment.

Yes we've had a few overhyped players like Wilshere and Gibbs, but neither amount to much.

Name a world class player that has come out of the big four in this country over the past ten years? It's a symptom of the PL money spent every summer.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

31-08-2016, 12:45 PM

Our squad is currently Cech, Ospina, Martinez, Gibbs, Monreal, Koscielny, Mertesacker, Gabriel, Mustafi, Debuchy, Jenkinson, Bellerin, Elneny, Coquelin, Cazorla, Ozil, Ramsey, Xhaka, Ox, Walcott, Giroud, Perez, Welbeck, Alexis and Sanogo (25 players not including Wilshere and Gnabry)

Players like Akpom, Iwobi, Willock, Rene-Adelaide, Holding etc are presumably exempt because they are under a certain age

The problem is we are saddled with useless players that we can't even get rid of, on loan

Bumble

31-08-2016, 12:50 PM

Name a world class player that has come out of the big four in this country over the past ten years? It's a symptom of the PL money spent every summer.

why are we expecting world class players to come out of the academy. they just need to produce good players that can play for arsenal. I always think of a world class player as someone who could get into any side in the world. In my mind that would only be Ozil at Arsenal. So therefore we don't need loads of world class players.

Kano

31-08-2016, 12:52 PM

Loads have left, our squad is smaller than last season, Campbell, Rosicky, Arteta, Flamini, Chambers looks like Wilshere and Gnabry as well.

We've signed Perez, Mustafi and Xhaka and Holding (Asano can't play), so that's 7 out 4 in and Wellbeck is out long term as is Gabriel and Mertesacker.

Cech/Ospina/Martinez
Bellerin/
Monreal/Gibbs
Koscielny/Mustafi/Holding/Gabriel(supposedly back in 3/4 weeks from now)/Merts
Coquelin/Xhaka/Elneny
Ozil/Ramsey/Cazorla
Walcott/Ox
Sanchez/Iwobi/The Jeff
Giroud/Perez/Wellbeck

Bellerin back up is the only concern if Debuchy leaves but add in a couple of wild cards and the numbers are there. We could debate the quality all day long but we've got rid of some deadwood in Flamini, Arterta, Rosicky, potentially Wilshere and Chambers too.

Kano

31-08-2016, 12:53 PM

Power n Glory

31-08-2016, 01:40 PM

why are we expecting world class players to come out of the academy. they just need to produce good players that can play for arsenal. I always think of a world class player as someone who could get into any side in the world. In my mind that would only be Ozil at Arsenal. So therefore we don't need loads of world class players.

Also, we’ve invested a lot of time and effort into the youth project unlike other Top 4 teams. It’s been our main strategy whilst our rivals would spend big to replace and not promote from within.

If you remember when the Prem had gone all anti foreign and pundits kept pounding Wenger for not producing enough English National players besides Cole, he said in 10 years they’d be thanking him. The Academy was supposed to produce those players and we were supposed to see the first batch of stars because we had guys like Wilshere from 9 years old. Wenger’s generation of kids that’s he’d be able to oversee from kids to adults. Besides being good enough for Arsenal, they were supposed to be good enough for England and that’s not the case either.

Kano

31-08-2016, 01:59 PM

Lesbian leaves Citeh to go to Seville.

Sissoko for £30m to Spuds? :lol:

Luiz to Chavs for £38m? :lol:

Nice not to have a dog in this last minute scramble for once.

Kano

31-08-2016, 02:05 PM

And Chambers has rocked up at Middlesboro for the rest of the season.

Özim

31-08-2016, 02:15 PM

Name a world class player that has come out of the big four in this country over the past ten years? It's a symptom of the PL money spent every summer.

There's one difference, none of those clubs have focussed on youth, that's been our primary goal, indeed when Wenger arrived he had a 10 year plan to develop quality young players.

If we signed world class players like the other clubs do it might not be a problem but we don't.

Özim

31-08-2016, 02:16 PM

I am invisible

31-08-2016, 02:18 PM

Cech/Ospina/Martinez
Bellerin/
Monreal/Gibbs
Koscielny/Mustafi/Holding/Gabriel(supposedly back in 3/4 weeks from now)/Merts
Coquelin/Xhaka/Elneny
Ozil/Ramsey/Cazorla
Walcott/Ox
Sanchez/Iwobi/The Jeff
Giroud/Perez/Wellbeck

Bellerin back up is the only concern if Debuchy leaves but add in a couple of wild cards and the numbers are there. We could debate the quality all day long but we've got rid of some deadwood in Flamini, Arterta, Rosicky, potentially Wilshere and Chambers too.

It's as solid a squad as we've had for a while, tbf - I'd happily upgrade a few more areas over the next couple of windows, but at least there's no gaping holes there for once.

Plenty of flexibility too, if we have to get creative - Monreal, Mustafi, Coq, Cazorla, Ramsey, Özil, Walcott, Ox, Sanchez, Iwobi, Jeff, Perez and Welbeck can all play 2 or 3 roles (to varying degrees of cometence).

And finally - finally! - no more temptation to fall back on Flaminis and Artetas, and no more waiting around for Wilsheres and Welbecks and Rosickys to be available.

I think my main gripe with the summer's work isn't the ins and outs, or even how late some of the deals have been done - it's that the players / team that we knew we were going to be starting with didn't look physically or tactically ready. Even now, 3 games in, they don't look like they can comfortably last 90 minutes! If you're going to leave your business late in the hope for getting better deals then that's fine, but at least make sure that the players we do have are match fit and able to do a job while we wait...

Özim

31-08-2016, 02:19 PM

Cech/Ospina/Martinez
Bellerin/
Monreal/Gibbs
Koscielny/Mustafi/Holding/Gabriel(supposedly back in 3/4 weeks from now)/Merts
Coquelin/Xhaka/Elneny
Ozil/Ramsey/Cazorla
Walcott/Ox
Sanchez/Iwobi/The Jeff
Giroud/Perez/Wellbeck

Bellerin back up is the only concern if Debuchy leaves but add in a couple of wild cards and the numbers are there. We could debate the quality all day long but we've got rid of some deadwood in Flamini, Arterta, Rosicky, potentially Wilshere and Chambers too.

I agree we got rid of deadwood, we just haven't really supplemented the squad with top quality that could make the difference, still think we look particularly lightweight up front.

Centre back and central midfield and perhaps goalkeeping are the areas we're well covered in and look decent, other areas I'm not so sure about, think down the wings we're lacking somewhat and probably going to have to play the square pegs round hole game again.

Perfect summer would have been a CB (check) and top striker and perhaps a goalscoring winger, but the striker was the big one for me, I think we needed more goals and thus a couple goalscorers added to the team would have made us both more unpredictable and better.

Our summer hasn't been too bad all in all, but I don't find any of those signings really exciting or what I would call matchwinners, CB fine, Xhaka really not too bothered about this one and Perez, hopefully turns out to be decent, let's be honest if you'd asked everyone who they would have signed in the summer how many would have identified any of the players we've signed as the ones they wanted, I'd hedge a bet at very few, that's kinda what Wenger likes though, he generally steers away from the more established players.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 02:27 PM

Name a world class player that has come out of the big four in this country over the past ten years? It's a symptom of the PL money spent every summer.

Was going to post the same thing before you did. There have been barely any English worldies the past decade ..... Rooney (and that was only for a few years) is the only one the springs to mind really. I think Shaw and Sterling (with some Pep coaching) could reach those levels though.

It's a problem with English players and general coaching rather than any specific academy system it seems.

Bellerin back up is the only concern if Debuchy leaves but add in a couple of wild cards and the numbers are there.

Not to do a Wenger but don't forget that Mustafi is a perfectly capable Rightback and has played there numerous times for Germany & Valencia when needed. In fact, I'm sure that was a factor in Wenger deciding to go in for him.

Kano

31-08-2016, 02:34 PM

There's one difference, none of those clubs have focussed on youth, that's been our primary goal, indeed when Wenger arrived he had a 10 year plan to develop quality young players.

If we signed world class players like the other clubs do it might not be a problem but we don't.
Apart from Utd I can't think of another team in recent memory in the UK that has developed the all mysterious 'world class' talent. There has been a huge emphasis on youth in terms of the academies but pressure to have instant success has increased, meaning younger players rarely get a chance to show what they can do. Look at Chelsea. They've won the FA Youth Cup 5 out of the last 7 years, so talent has to be there and how many come through to the first team at that club? We tried to put focus on youth for 4/5 years previously but ultimately, could Wenger have afforded to take gambles on more players from the youth set up and risk worse performances in the league and all the pressure that comes with it? I don't think he could. Young players probably get more of a chance here than they do at Citeh or Chavs. Utd only turned to kids last season and struck lucky because of the injuries they suffered. Maureen has come in and knocked that on the head straight away. Liverpool still give youngsters a shot and Spuds have mostly because of the financial restrictions of the stadium.

Özim

31-08-2016, 02:50 PM

Apart from Utd I can't think of another team in recent memory in the UK that has developed the all mysterious 'world class' talent. There has been a huge emphasis on youth in terms of the academies but pressure to have instant success has increased, meaning younger players rarely get a chance to show what they can do. Look at Chelsea. They've won the FA Youth Cup 5 out of the last 7 years, so talent has to be there and how many come through to the first team at that club? We tried to put focus on youth for 4/5 years previously but ultimately, could Wenger have afforded to take gambles on more players from the youth set up and risk worse performances in the league and all the pressure that comes with it? I don't think he could. Young players probably get more of a chance here than they do at Citeh or Chavs. Utd only turned to kids last season and struck lucky because of the injuries they suffered. Maureen has come in and knocked that on the head straight away. Liverpool still give youngsters a shot and Spuds have mostly because of the financial restrictions of the stadium.

Southampton for one, West Ham haven't done badly either and Spurs as you mention. There's a few teams out there, just feel that considering how much emphasis we put on youth, our return has been pretty poor, Gnabry is the latest in a long line of failed young players (admitttedly he's not from our academy).

Maybe we should stop focussing on kids and just sign world class players if this is all we're going to produce, our kids come with all the hype and none of the talent, I don't get the impression our scouts (who look for kids) are particularly good at it, we seem to miss out on all the top young players and get left with fairly average ones.

Özim

31-08-2016, 02:56 PM

The problem is we are saddled with useless players that we can't even get rid of, on loan

Poor management tbh, we sign up these young players on new deals all the time, even before they've done anything to deserve it, consequently they get paid a load of money and noone wants to take them off our hands, wonder whether it would be better to buy them of their contracts and let them walk though.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

31-08-2016, 02:57 PM

Kano

31-08-2016, 03:00 PM

I agree we got rid of deadwood, we just haven't really supplemented the squad with top quality that could make the difference, still think we look particularly lightweight up front.

Centre back and central midfield and perhaps goalkeeping are the areas we're well covered in and look decent, other areas I'm not so sure about, think down the wings we're lacking somewhat and probably going to have to play the square pegs round hole game again.

Perfect summer would have been a CB (check) and top striker and perhaps a goalscoring winger, but the striker was the big one for me, I think we needed more goals and thus a couple goalscorers added to the team would have made us both more unpredictable and better.

Our summer hasn't been too bad all in all, but I don't find any of those signings really exciting or what I would call matchwinners, CB fine, Xhaka really not too bothered about this one and Perez, hopefully turns out to be decent, let's be honest if you'd asked everyone who they would have signed in the summer how many would have identified any of the players we've signed as the ones they wanted, I'd hedge a bet at very few, that's kinda what Wenger likes though, he generally steers away from the more established players.

A more effective and established wide player would have been good I agree but on the striking front it's hard to think of what was out there that you can put your hat on making a clear difference. Vardy was based on one year and before the window started, can we honestly say that Lacazette was top of the fans most wanted list? His 'importance' only grew the further into the window we went. His numbers are decent enough in the French league but is he going to come over here and maintain those numbers in a tougher, more competitive league? No way of knowing for sure. He would definitely offer something different to Giroud but he is perhaps just as much of a risk as a Perez or an Icardi might of been. The only goal machine on the market was Higuain and the club were not paying that money for a striker. Lyon's president came out the other day and said they turned down £42m from West Ham and even higher bids from elsewhere, so it would've taken something absurd for them to sell him, especially as they are likely to be PSG's closest rivals in the league and are in the CL. For them to find a replacement would've put them in the nightmare boat we found ourselves in.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

31-08-2016, 03:03 PM

Poor management tbh, we sign up these young players on new deals all the time, even before they've done anything to deserve it, consequently they get paid a load of money and noone wants to take them off our hands, wonder whether it would be better to buy them of their contracts and let them walk though.

Yes but that wasn't the point I was making, I am pointing out that this is the reason we can't bring anymore players in

Kano

31-08-2016, 03:05 PM

Southampton for one, West Ham haven't done badly either and Spurs as you mention. There's a few teams out there, just feel that considering how much emphasis we put on youth, our return has been pretty poor, Gnabry is the latest in a long line of failed young players (admitttedly he's not from our academy).

Maybe we should stop focussing on kids and just sign world class players if this is all we're going to produce, our kids come with all the hype and none of the talent, I don't get the impression our scouts (who look for kids) are particularly good at it, we seem to miss out on all the top young players and get left with fairly average ones.
Southampton have pulled out some good players but no 'world class' talent and that well seems to have run dry now. West Ham haven't produced anyone of note for years and we're not including Noble in this either. Tottenham have been forced to focus on youth and found the right manager to do so, plus Levy is just as tight with his money as Gazidis - the Spuds fans moan about his antics every window.

As a club we're not 'focussing' on youth, we're developing them just like every other big team. We had a period during the stadium move where that was the case but even then Wenger never fully committed to it by integrating a number of them into the first team as a group. Our scouts wouldn't be the problem, as the final say so comes do to Wenger no doubt. All they can do is find the talent and make suggestions.

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 03:12 PM

Gnabry completes his move to Bremen. :wave:

Özim

31-08-2016, 03:14 PM

Bit of a shame with Gnabry, never really saw if he would be any good or not, seemed decent enough when he first featured, did well at the Olympics but I guess that isn't really a great marker, will be interesting to see how he develops, makes the loaning out of Campbell and even weirder decision now though.

First thing I'd have done is shipped Walcott out for whatever we could get personally, that guy sticks around like a bad spell, he's had his chance and not been up to the task.

Kano

31-08-2016, 03:17 PM

It's as solid a squad as we've had for a while, tbf - I'd happily upgrade a few more areas over the next couple of windows, but at least there's no gaping holes there for once.

Plenty of flexibility too, if we have to get creative - Monreal, Mustafi, Coq, Cazorla, Ramsey, Özil, Walcott, Ox, Sanchez, Iwobi, Jeff, Perez and Welbeck can all play 2 or 3 roles (to varying degrees of cometence).

And finally - finally! - no more temptation to fall back on Flaminis and Artetas, and no more waiting around for Wilsheres and Welbecks and Rosickys to be available.

I think my main gripe with the summer's work isn't the ins and outs, or even how late some of the deals have been done - it's that the players / team that we knew we were going to be starting with didn't look physically or tactically ready. Even now, 3 games in, they don't look like they can comfortably last 90 minutes! If you're going to leave your business late in the hope for getting better deals then that's fine, but at least make sure that the players we do have are match fit and able to do a job while we wait...

In general the squad looks better than it has for a while and we have strengthened in areas we needed to which is positive. My issue is both the fact we didn't have the new players in time for the start of the season and as you say, that the ones we did, have struggled to get up to speed. The last two results have been acceptable but that first game calamity puts a completely different spin on the start of our campaign so far.

Wenger said the other day that he thought this would be his easiest window in ages, probably because he knew who he wanted to buy but after the Vardy thing, it seemed like a plan B wasn't in place. From the outside of course, that is an easy thing to say but when you look back at our last minute scrambles over the years and not having a new striker until yesterday, it adds up. The defender issue really should've been resolved a lot faster than it has been and maybe that first game could've been different.

I'm mostly content with the business we've done, I'd mark it as a 6.5/7 out of 10, around that mark. The biggest problem is making the most of the squad as usual. You want to hope things will be different (otherwise what's the point of watching every week) but Wenger's management of the squad is still the major concern. And of course our injury history. How long before that kicks in and decimates what looks like a decent squad, remains to be seen.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 03:24 PM

According to Ornstein Bournemouth are favourite to get Jack.

Apparently we won't do business with Roma after they fobbed us off earlier the summer for Manloas and Palace have turned their attention elsewhere.

"Arsenal have refused to do a deal with Roma," says our man David Ornstein. "Crystal Palace think their move for Wilshere is dead and have focused their attention elsewhere."

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 03:28 PM

David Luiz to have his Chelsea medical.

FFS. :lol:

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 03:30 PM

NQ is right. :lol:

Interpol, UEFA, FIFA, The FA, The PL ........... whoever, need to investigate this. Shady as hell.

Either to circumvent FFP or other more nefarious purposes (laundering dirty Russian drug money?).

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

31-08-2016, 03:32 PM

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 03:33 PM

That's not going to fool the police.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AENEedWy_kU/hqdefault.jpg

Penguin

31-08-2016, 03:51 PM

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 03:53 PM

Wheelchair off to Bournemouth to complete his move. :wave:

Chelsea to sign Marcos Alonso for 23m. Whoever that is.

Letters

31-08-2016, 03:56 PM

Bournemouth :lol:

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 03:59 PM

Someone remind me what happened with Manolas? :unsure:

Well it wasn't really reported heavily at the time (though there were the standard rumours around) but the implication from Ornstein is that we seemed to have made a legitimate inquiry for Manolas earlier in the summer as our CB option and somewhere in that process the relationship between us and Roma broke down (maybe they insulted Dick Law/Wenger/Gazidis), which is probably why we turned towards Mustafi.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 04:00 PM

Bournemouth :lol:

Good club with a talented young manager who tries to play progressive football and not the shitball hoof tactics of a Pulis or a Hughes. Almost guaranteed starts as well provided he stays fit.

Great move for Jack all things considered.

Goonermerree

31-08-2016, 04:02 PM

Unbelievable really, Hart to a team we've barely heard of and Jack to Bournemouth! How things change.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 04:04 PM

Letters

31-08-2016, 04:04 PM

provided he stays fit.
Yeah, about that...

Kano

31-08-2016, 04:05 PM

Unbelievable really, Hart to a team we've barely heard of and Jack to Bournemouth! How things change.

One thing I have to give to Hart is going out to play in another country. A bit sad that has to be commended but so many English players avoid it like the plague.

You'd hope both him and Jack can look at players around them, fighting to stay in their respective leagues and some of that fight and hunger rubs off on them.

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 04:06 PM

You have to think if Jack doesn't stay fit and establish himself at Bournemouth we will probably look to sell him next year. That long term deal he signed with all the British guys must be nearing it's end.

Goonermerree

31-08-2016, 04:18 PM

Well the key difference is the reason that Head & Shoulders has been forced out is because he's been shit and a liability whereas for Jack it's more to regain his fitness and establish himself again and not because the manager doesn't rate his talent.

Irrespective of the reasons, it's still an unexpected thing to happen for both players. I got the impression from reading on the Sky site the other day that Jack wanted a move himself to get some playing time so that he had a chance of regaining his England spot.

Özim

31-08-2016, 05:02 PM

Wheelchair off to Bournemouth to complete his move. :wave:

Chelsea to sign Marcos Alonso for 23m. Whoever that is.

:lol: The playboy probably went there so he can go to the beach every weekend when he's injured.

Özim

31-08-2016, 05:03 PM

Özim

31-08-2016, 05:05 PM

One thing I have to give to Hart is going out to play in another country. A bit sad that has to be commended but so many English players avoid it like the plague.

You'd hope both him and Jack can look at players around them, fighting to stay in their respective leagues and some of that fight and hunger rubs off on them.

Agree, does them good to play abroad, I think you become a more rounded player because of it, English players never want to move out of their back yard so they never get better.

Kano

31-08-2016, 05:27 PM

:lol: The playboy probably went there so he can go to the beach every weekend when he's injured.

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000CrC5UbtTXis/fit=1000x750/Elderly-Seaside010.jpg

He might find that a bit of a let down

Özim

31-08-2016, 05:37 PM

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000CrC5UbtTXis/fit=1000x750/Elderly-Seaside010.jpg

He might find that a bit of a let down

I'm guessing he didn't think it through as thinking isn't his strong point.

One another note if this is it for our transfer window I'll give it 6.5 out of 10, not great, not terrible, just not bad, on the one hand we've strengthened a couple areas, on the other a bit underwhelmed with the players we've signed.

Özim

31-08-2016, 05:41 PM

A more effective and established wide player would have been good I agree but on the striking front it's hard to think of what was out there that you can put your hat on making a clear difference. Vardy was based on one year and before the window started, can we honestly say that Lacazette was top of the fans most wanted list? His 'importance' only grew the further into the window we went. His numbers are decent enough in the French league but is he going to come over here and maintain those numbers in a tougher, more competitive league? No way of knowing for sure. He would definitely offer something different to Giroud but he is perhaps just as much of a risk as a Perez or an Icardi might of been. The only goal machine on the market was Higuain and the club were not paying that money for a striker. Lyon's president came out the other day and said they turned down £42m from West Ham and even higher bids from elsewhere, so it would've taken something absurd for them to sell him, especially as they are likely to be PSG's closest rivals in the league and are in the CL. For them to find a replacement would've put them in the nightmare boat we found ourselves in.

I still would have preferred Lacazette, yes his goals are only in Ligue 1 but he's a proven goalscorer at least, Zlatan hasn't started too badly and he came from Ligue 1 tbf. Obviously it's always a risk, but what he had going for him was his goal record and his age, I know Lyon turned down big bids for him recently but had we moved earlier in the window I' sure we could have agreed something.

But yes we left it too late as usual and in the end it was our undoing and we had to settle for someone we didn't actually particularly want in the 1st place by the looks of it, he was offered to us a month ago apparently and we decided against bringing him in as he wasn't one of the players we were looking at, seems like a last minute panic buy to be honest, we'll see how he does, hopefully he turns out decent, can't be any worse than Giroud.

Letters

31-08-2016, 06:10 PM

We didn't just leave it late though, we were looking at other targets and when those didn't work out we had to look elsewhere. The players we've got weren't our first choice but overall I think it's been a pretty decent transfer window. It's certainly looking a lot better than a week ago.

Kano

31-08-2016, 06:19 PM

We should of set a deadline ourselves to have the players in the squad before the start of the season, that was the biggest mistake. By all means look at other targets but being up and running by the first weekend should have been possible. If you can't get the main targets in by then, go to option B or C sooner, rather than later. Perez had a release clause, so he could've come in 3 weeks ago. Especially on the defensive side of things. That disaster of a first game could of been avoided and we should at least be looking at having 5 points, without 5 goals conceded already.

Letters

31-08-2016, 06:22 PM

Agreed about getting people in by the start of the season.

Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

31-08-2016, 06:26 PM

Vardy shouldn't have been allowed to mug us off for as long as he did. Still, what's done is done and I just hope we done see the effort levels fluctuate.

I think it would have been wiser to negotiate a recall option for Wilshere and sorry to see Gnabry go, but we can only accommodate so many young pretenders which is why the likes of Zelalem, Willock, Akpom really need to be following Wishere down to Grandma sands.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 06:30 PM

According to goal.com (R.I.P. Cripps) and various Arsenal ITK's on twitter Sturridge's agent has been desperately trying to flog him to us today. :lol:

Just what we need, another crock to keep Welbeck company in the treatment room.

Goal.com claim that Daniel Sturridge's representatives approached Arsenal in the hope of getting the Gunners to make a loan bid for their man.

Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

31-08-2016, 06:36 PM

Keith

31-08-2016, 06:41 PM

Wouldn't be surprised to see Sturridge by the end of the day at Arsenal, if he doesn't get on with the boss and doesn't start why keep him.

Shaqiri Is Boss

31-08-2016, 06:48 PM

I can't see it happening tbh.

Not today, anyway.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 06:50 PM

As I've often bored Herbert with, he is the last player on this green earth Wenger will sign. Not because of his dreadful injury record, but because of his serial greediness. Absolutely will not pass it when you want him to.

Yeah true. Funny but there's no way it's happening.

Mind you, we could do with some greediness up front given our propensity to pass the ball into the net and not be ruthless in front of goal.

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 06:50 PM

No chance we will sign Sturridge. :lol:

Though I do think he's developed into a decent striker, I don't think he suits us at all.

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 06:52 PM

David Luiz to have his Chelsea medical.

FFS. :lol:

:haha:

It's really true?

Shady as fuck.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 06:59 PM

:haha:

It's really true?

Shady as fuck.

Yes it is. DM have pics of him arriving at St Pancreas after taking the Eurostar from Paris.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3767162/David-Luiz-brink-Chelsea-return-Blues-agree-transfer-PSG.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/31/18/37C2595B00000578-3767162-Luiz_was_pictured_walking_through_St_Pancras_railw ay_station_on_-a-34_1472664273987.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/31/18/37C2593E00000578-3767162-image-a-29_1472664092862.jpg

And he's already changed the background on his Facebook page to Chelsea colours apparently. :lol:

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 07:01 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8do_wxlcq4

Jim White time.

Kate Abdo. :bow:

Also, Sunderland have signed Ndong.

Let the cock puns begin.

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 07:05 PM

SSN say Everton to sign Sissoko from the Barcodes - for £30 million.

:haha:

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 07:11 PM

Sky Sports News for NQthe freeloaders.

http://cricfree.sc/sky-sports-news-live-stream

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 07:11 PM

Yes it is. DM have pics of him arriving at St Pancreas after taking the Eurostar from Paris.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3767162/David-Luiz-brink-Chelsea-return-Blues-agree-transfer-PSG.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/31/18/37C2595B00000578-3767162-Luiz_was_pictured_walking_through_St_Pancras_railw ay_station_on_-a-34_1472664273987.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/31/18/37C2593E00000578-3767162-image-a-29_1472664092862.jpg

And he's already changed the background on his Facebook page to Chelsea colours apparently. :lol:

I can't begin to understand it.

Shaqiri Is Boss

31-08-2016, 07:18 PM

SSN say Everton to sign Sissoko from the Barcodes - for £30 million.

:haha:

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_image/38/3847c4013eadf16b04b932219b4fe37b/mike_ashley.jpg

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 07:23 PM

How the hell did Liverpool get 4 million for Jerome Sinclair?

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 07:25 PM

Balotelli's move to Nice is permanent.

Free transfer as well. :lol:

hobson's choice

31-08-2016, 07:25 PM

SSN say Everton to sign Sissoko from the Barcodes - for £30 million.

:haha:

Good player tho, price is about right.

Niall_Quinn

31-08-2016, 07:26 PM

Balotelli has gone to Nice on a free :haha:

Still overpriced.

Meanwhile, how dodgy are all these loan deals? Pretty soon we'll need a supercomputer to figure out who can play whom. Do the slimy, filthy, cunt agents still get a bung if it's a loan?

Kano

31-08-2016, 07:33 PM

I can't see it happening tbh.

Not today, anyway.

Nah can't see it. You guys need a goalscorer and he'll always do that as long as he's not injured.

Niall_Quinn

31-08-2016, 07:35 PM

First I forgot it was deadline day. Then, when I realised, I couldn't be bothered. Now that I have finally switched it on, it's all so degrading and embarrassing. Fairly ordinary players being whored around the place, flying in on private jets. Fans who probably can't afford to make the rent out on the streets just to catch a glimpse of these tossers. I'm glad Arsenal isn't involved in this, for a change.

Pep knows his stuff though, doesn't he? Oi, Hart! Lesbo! GTFO!

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 07:37 PM

Those SSN interviews with the players in the car as they arrive are pretty awkward.

You can tell the players want the reporter to fuck off. :lol:

Niall_Quinn

31-08-2016, 07:37 PM

Some good insights from Bony. Says he would like to help his new team win, and to do that he's going to try to score goals.

Fascinating.

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 07:37 PM

I think the loan system is all a bit of bollocks really. It should be limited.

Why should certain clubs just be able to waste hundreds of millions on players they never should have bought then get the benefit of just hauling them out on loan for a season?

Thinking of Bony and Mangala for instance and the fifty odd players Chelsea normally send out on loan.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 07:39 PM

SSN's man is actually inside the Emirates this time. :lol: I guess after the shambles of last time when the fans invaded they had no choice.

A bit pointless as everyone knew we weren't signing anyone tonight.

Debauchy staying apparently. Same with Akpom.

Keith

31-08-2016, 07:39 PM

SSN nothing happening at Arsenal tonight, turns off.

Niall_Quinn

31-08-2016, 07:40 PM

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 07:43 PM

Good player tho, price is about right.

He truly is the definition of average. And £30 million for a Championship player is about right?

:wacko:

Niall_Quinn

31-08-2016, 07:45 PM

He truly is the definition of average. And £30 million for a Championship player is about right?

:wacko:

Relatively speaking. Don't forget, this is a league where Sterling goes for 50 mill.

Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

31-08-2016, 07:46 PM

If you could spend 60 mill more before 11pm who would you buy?

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 07:49 PM

If you could spend 60 mill more before 11pm who would you buy?

I would tempt Dortmund for Aubameyang tbh.

Also whilst I'm there I'd ask Tuchel if he wants to take over next year when the old man finally retires*.

*optimistic I know*

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 07:49 PM

On the point of the loans being abused...Chelsea have loaned Cuadrado to Juventus, until June 2019.

:haha:

Kano

31-08-2016, 07:53 PM

If you could spend 60 mill more before 11pm who would you buy?

Jonny Evans, a class above.

I was proud that our club was linked to him during the summer.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 07:55 PM

Luiz a fan's favourite when he was at Chelsea? :blink:

Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

31-08-2016, 07:55 PM

I would tempt Dortmund for Aubameyang tbh.

Also whilst I'm there I'd ask Tuchel if he wants to take over next year when the old man finally retires*.

*optimistic I know*

And look for Perez' receipt? :d

Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

31-08-2016, 07:56 PM

Jonny Evans, a class above.

I was proud that our club was linked to him during the summer.

Dad you old miser....stop hacking Kano's account.

31-08-2016, 07:59 PM

On the point of the loans being abused...Chelsea have loaned Cuadrado to Juventus, until June 2019.

:haha:

A 3 year loan?

What the fuck?

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 08:02 PM

Our own Niall Quinn in the SSN studio now. :bow::bow:

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 08:03 PM

BREAKING NEWS!

Hull sign James Weir from Man Utd.

Who?

McNamara That Ghost...

31-08-2016, 08:03 PM

A 3 year loan?

What the fuck?

He'll be 31 by then. :wacko:

Chippy

31-08-2016, 08:03 PM

As soon as I saw the loan was available, I thought he'd go to Palace or West Ham. It could be a great move for either party, he returns to a new contract and Santi ready to return to Spain or he fails and is sold on the cheap.

This loan is far better than the previous sale to Man City.

Gnarby, I feel should also be a loan as I rated him when he last got a run in the team but that was years ago. Guess some make it, some don't.

I know that I am in the minority, but letting Jack go is a risk in my opinion. Is Coq or the Ox better than him? No, I don't think so. Especially as the Ox is so injury prone!

Power n Glory

31-08-2016, 08:18 PM

I know that I am in the minority, but letting Jack go is a risk in my opinion. Is Coq or the Ox better than him? No, I don't think so. Especially as the Ox is so injury prone!

Odd choice in players. Ox is a winger and Coquelin a DM. I'm not a fan of Jack playing on the wings. I'd prefer Ox over Jack for that role. Also, I'm not about Jack at DM or even if we need him playing there considering he won't defend better than Coquelin or pass better than Xhaka.

Chippy

31-08-2016, 08:22 PM

Odd choice in players. Ox is a winger and Coquelin a DM. I'm not a fan of Jack playing on the wings. I'd prefer Ox over Jack for that role. Also, I'm not about Jack at DM or even if we need him playing there considering he won't defend better than Coquelin or pass better than Xhaka.
Maybe I should shut the fuck up! Lol!

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 08:30 PM

Right I can't bear anymore of this shit. Turning off. Hopefully nothing major suddenly breaks.

mastermind84

31-08-2016, 08:38 PM

Relatively speaking. Don't forget, this is a league where Sterling goes for 50 mill.
Sterling is a great player. That fee will be seen as a bargain in a few seasons.

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 08:40 PM

On the point of the loans being abused...Chelsea have loaned Cuadrado to Juventus, until June 2019.

:haha:

That's a joke. :blink:

There should be sanctions against that. If you spank a shit ton of money on players you no longer fancy you should still have to live with the consequences.

Power n Glory

31-08-2016, 08:40 PM

Maybe I should shut the fuck up! Lol!

:lol: No, I kinda get where you're coming from. We could find a place for Jack in the squad and I'm sure we'll have injury problems.

Power n Glory

31-08-2016, 08:42 PM

Sterling is a great player. That fee will be seen as a bargain in a few seasons.

Sterling is still a kid and I think the world turned on him because of that agency thing. But he's a good player with the potential to be up there with the very best.

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 09:12 PM

Slimani signs for Leicester. Interesting to see how they incorporate him as well as Vardy and Musa.

Spuds have bid 30m for Sissoko now as well. :haha:

Penguin

31-08-2016, 09:23 PM

Sterling's fee was only that big because City were desperate for homegrown players, and the pool for talented English players is so small. In hindsight maybe we should have kicked Wilshere out the door and got £30mil in the bank.

Letters

31-08-2016, 09:30 PM

Has the window SLAMMED shut yet?

Letters

31-08-2016, 09:34 PM

That's a joke. :blink:

There should be sanctions against that. If you spank a shit ton of money on players you no longer fancy you should still have to live with the consequences.

This is one of the things the billionaire cheat clubs have been doing for years.
Buy a player they don't want or need, ship them out on a loan to make sure a side who isn't their rivals can't get them.
All very cynical.
I think City's owners have gone one better and actually bought another club entirely haven't they where they can stockpile players.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 09:35 PM

Seems like Spurs have gazumpped Everton at the last minute for Sissoko. :lol:

Second time it's happened to them this window after we took Perez from them after he'd initially agreed to join them.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 09:37 PM

Lazar Markovic goes to Sporting.

Remember him? :lol:

That's a joke. :blink:

There should be sanctions against that. If you spank a shit ton of money on players you no longer fancy you should still have to live with the consequences.

Completely. They're more a player letting company these days than a football club.

Of course, the press will be more interested in calling out the dirty foreigners for "nicking a living" instead of actually applying pressure to Chelsea over this. :rolleyes:

Kano

31-08-2016, 09:48 PM

Mustafi went down and appeared to twist his foot before going back on the field against Finland.

Brace yourselves :lol:

31-08-2016, 09:48 PM

This is one of the things the billionaire cheat clubs have been doing for years.
Buy a player they don't want or need, ship them out on a loan to make sure a side who isn't their rivals can't get them.
All very cynical.
I think City's owners have gone one better and actually bought another club entirely haven't they where they can stockpile players.

City Football Group own Man City, NYC FC, Melbourne City and Yokohama Marinos.

The funniest part is, Etihad in Arabic means 'United'

31-08-2016, 09:50 PM

Slimani signs for Leicester. Interesting to see how they incorporate him as well as Vardy and Musa.

Spuds have bid 30m for Sissoko now as well. :haha:

£30m to sign Moussa Sissoko. This is the second time in a few months that Newcastle have utterly embarrassed Spurs.

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 09:53 PM

Everton end up taking Enner Valencia on loan. :lol:

Must suck for their fans being gazumped twice in a week.

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 09:56 PM

Mustafi went down and appeared to twist his foot before going back on the field against Finland.

Brace yourselves :lol:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrNyQZxWYAAVHlx.jpg

Thankfully got back up and played the rest of the 90 mins so it doesn't seem serious.

Still .... :lol:

Arsenal injury curse. :rose:

The Emirates Gallactico

31-08-2016, 10:00 PM

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2016/8/31/tweet-771101976146931712-2.jpg

I'm guessing Richard Keys is guess editor this week.

Keith

31-08-2016, 10:04 PM

So the window is shut, but the transfers will continue until tomorrow as they do every year

Marc Overmars

31-08-2016, 10:22 PM

Spuds complete the signing of Sissoko on a 5 year deal. :lol:

Incredible how any club can seem to pull 30m out of their arse these days. Surely BT and Sky can't afford to keep this level of investment up? The bubble has to burst one day.

Is it any wonder why United had to pay 89m for Pogba when 30m is the seemingly the standard price for average players now.

Master Splinter

31-08-2016, 10:49 PM

Kano

31-08-2016, 10:59 PM

Worst of all, the slimy Chavs have strengthened PSG just before we play them.

Thierrymon

01-09-2016, 12:41 AM

Kano

01-09-2016, 07:37 AM

He's just an average player. Occasionally he turns it on in a game and goes on a few lung busting runs past a few players. Just as he did in the Euro final, which made him stand out for half the game, as everyone else on the pitch had forgotten the reason they were in that stadium.

Kano

01-09-2016, 07:46 AM

Pochettino continues to turn Spurs into a sub-Chelsea, big strong, powerful, athlete ball, tactical fouling mean machine. They're big, they're strong, they've got power and pace, they epitomise the PL and Poch is a genius.

Chelsea's incomings are a bit strange. Kante aside, it's all slapdash. Batshit cost a shitload, but is a Costa understudy. Alonso and Luiz :wacko:. Imagine if dithering, out-of-touch Arsenal made such underwhelming signings which barely improve the team.

The Wilshere thing is plain weird. If he stays fit for the whole season, I suppose it's a positive. But he'll probably be in a relegation fight. And you know Xhaka/Cazorla/Elneny are going to succumb to the 3-4 month injury blow soon enough.

The only reason I can think Conte has gone after Luiz is because of his mobility and speed. I haven't seen a Chelsea game yet but apparently Conte is a fan of pressing up the pitch and a high line defensively. Cahill and Terry aren't going to be your first picks for a relay team, so I guess he wants someone that can cover ground quickly. That part Luiz can do. The only problem is when he gets close to the ball, he forgets which side he is playing for.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

01-09-2016, 08:22 AM

The only reason I can think Conte has gone after Luiz is because of his mobility and speed. I haven't seen a Chelsea game yet but apparently Conte is a fan of pressing up the pitch and a high line defensively. Cahill and Terry aren't going to be your first picks for a relay team, so I guess he wants someone that can cover ground quickly. That part Luiz can do. The only problem is when he gets close to the ball, he forgets which side he is playing for.

The only reason I think he went after Luiz is because he was desperate and Chelsea presumably had a buy back clause

Kano

01-09-2016, 08:44 AM

Goonermerree

01-09-2016, 08:46 AM

Thank god that's over, now we can go back to moaning about Wenger - the incompetent fool!:yippee:

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

01-09-2016, 08:47 AM

That wouldn't make any sense for a team to spend £50m and allow a buy back clause. That's usually put in place by clubs selling younger players for relatively cheaper prices, on the off chance they develop into someone decent. For a 27 year old leaving under Maureen at the time, I doubt any clause existed at that sort of money too.

Makes perfect sense if Chelsea find themselves in a situation where they are short of defensive cover and can recruit someone who has played for the club previously.

Kano

01-09-2016, 09:07 AM

Makes perfect sense if Chelsea find themselves in a situation where they are short of defensive cover and can recruit someone who has played for the club previously.
There are two parties involved in a transfer, the one paying £50m would probably hold a lot of negotiating power I'd presume. Maureen had big ideas of staying and building a legacy (:lol:) so going back to 2014, why he, or the club would think they might ever need to buy back David Luiz and insert that into a £50m sale is beyond me. 27 year old players don't have buy back clauses because the value on their next sale would be lower anyway, as the price here shows, over 20% less than what he was sold for. And I can't think of a club that thinks of an injury crisis or lack of buying options two years in advance. Certainly not the Chavs. Conte was desperate, that's obvious given his comments about the market a week or so ago but a buyback clause? Doesn't make any sense.

I am invisible

01-09-2016, 09:13 AM

In general the squad looks better than it has for a while and we have strengthened in areas we needed to which is positive. My issue is both the fact we didn't have the new players in time for the start of the season and as you say, that the ones we did, have struggled to get up to speed. The last two results have been acceptable but that first game calamity puts a completely different spin on the start of our campaign so far.

Wenger said the other day that he thought this would be his easiest window in ages, probably because he knew who he wanted to buy but after the Vardy thing, it seemed like a plan B wasn't in place. From the outside of course, that is an easy thing to say but when you look back at our last minute scrambles over the years and not having a new striker until yesterday, it adds up. The defender issue really should've been resolved a lot faster than it has been and maybe that first game could've been different.

I'm mostly content with the business we've done, I'd mark it as a 6.5/7 out of 10, around that mark. The biggest problem is making the most of the squad as usual. You want to hope things will be different (otherwise what's the point of watching every week) but Wenger's management of the squad is still the major concern. And of course our injury history. How long before that kicks in and decimates what looks like a decent squad, remains to be seen.

Yeah, reading between the lines, it looks a lot like we had a budget of something like £100m to play with - £35m went on Xhaka straightaway, and we obviously thought we were going to get Vardy for around £20m, leaving us about £35m for the CB and maybe £10m for randoms and project players... if that deal for Vardy had gone through then I would imagine that the deal for Mustafi would have then happened pretty quickly, and without too much haggling over price. As it was, I'm guessing that the Vardy snub threw our plans and budget into chaos, and triggered a lot of weeks of back-and-forth between various clubs, as we looked at other targets and tried to find the best balance of price between alternative strikers and CBs?

The Perez deal is inetersting in all this because it sounds like he was available all summer, and that we sounded him out early - again, just a guess, but I reckon we probably always had him in mind while we were looking at other targets, as a very similar player to Vardy and (more specifically) one who was available at more or less the same price: it allowed us to set a time limit of sorts for exploring other targets, and gave us the option of reverting back to our original plan and budget, if nothing else feasible had presented itself by that point. Not so much a Plan B, C or D, but maybe a Plan A.2 (if that makes sense)?

Like you, I'd probably give it an overall 7/10, which may yet swing a point either way depending on how Perez does. I genuinely feel that we've got a good, adaptable group here now, that can be quickly and easily shuffled in a lot of different ways to suit different gameplans. As you say though, it ultimately comes down to Wenger's management of the squad and his abaility to make the right selections at the right time...

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

01-09-2016, 09:21 AM

There are two parties involved in a transfer, the one paying £50m would probably hold a lot of negotiating power I'd presume. Maureen had big ideas of staying and building a legacy (:lol:) so going back to 2014, why he, or the club would think they might ever need to buy back David Luiz and insert that into a £50m sale is beyond me. 27 year old players don't have buy back clauses because the value on their next sale would be lower anyway, as the price here shows, over 20% less than what he was sold for. And I can't think of a club that thinks of an injury crisis or lack of buying options two years in advance. Certainly not the Chavs. Conte was desperate, that's obvious given his comments about the market a week or so ago but a buyback clause? Doesn't make any sense.

Again you seem to think Mourinho had any say in the terms under which David Luiz was sold to PSG, and ultimately no matter what is being spent it's ultimately the selling club that has the power when it comes to transfers. And the clause may have just given the club the right to speak to the player, the fact that he was sold back to Chelsea for less than what PSG paid is because he isn't very good and is 29.

Bumble

01-09-2016, 09:47 AM

Again you seem to think Mourinho had any say in the terms under which David Luiz was sold to PSG, and ultimately no matter what is being spent it's ultimately the selling club that has the power when it comes to transfers. And the clause may have just given the club the right to speak to the player, the fact that he was sold back to Chelsea for less than what PSG paid is because he isn't very good and is 29.

no idea why Chelsea bought Luiz back he is like the polar opposite of what Italian defending is all about.

anyway it is sad the transfer window has ended as he reduces the number of topics we can moan and complain about.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

01-09-2016, 09:50 AM

They brought him back out of desperation

Marc Overmars

01-09-2016, 09:54 AM

Pretty much. They spent all summer chasing a CB, when nothing worked out they turned to someone that probably wouldn't have been difficult to attract.

I just can't believe a player as shite as him has managed to accumulate 100m in transfer fees.

Kano

01-09-2016, 10:02 AM

selassie

01-09-2016, 10:55 AM

Worst of all, the slimy Chavs have strengthened PSG just before we play them.

Aye, though Marquinhos has pushed Luiz out of both PSG & Brazil's starting line up. PSG were crazy to pay 50m for Luiz in the first place, mind you paying 30mill for him is kind of crazy of Chelsea given he was about their 5th choice on the list of CB's, desperate measures indeed.

selassie

01-09-2016, 10:58 AM

Sterling is still a kid and I think the world turned on him because of that agency thing. But he's a good player with the potential to be up there with the very best.

Yep, I think Pep will develop him into a superb player, he has the talent irrespective of what people think of him personally.

Kano

01-09-2016, 11:08 AM

Aye, though Marquinhos has pushed Luiz out of both PSG & Brazil's starting line up. PSG were crazy to pay 50m for Luiz in the first place, mind you paying 30mill for him is kind of crazy of Chelsea given he was about their 5th choice on the list of CB's, desperate measures indeed.

Bit of a weird one really given he's started all four of PSG's games this season. PSG haven't gone into the market on a splurge this summer which seems strange, what with Ibra leaving, so you have to wonder what sort of a force they'll be in the CL this season. Cavani has a decent goal return and maybe he'll step up now that the ego has left the building.

Xhaka Can’t

01-09-2016, 11:43 AM

David Luiz and Jack Wilshere spotted at Gatwick Airport yesterday.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160901/3e9089e71d7ce7b978c2f5fceac21516.jpg

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

01-09-2016, 11:56 AM

Bit of a weird one really given he's started all four of PSG's games this season. PSG haven't gone into the market on a splurge this summer which seems strange, what with Ibra leaving, so you have to wonder what sort of a force they'll be in the CL this season. Cavani has a decent goal return and maybe he'll step up now that the ego has left the building.

I was hoping David Luiz would play for PSG when we play in Paris, Tuesday after next

Kano

01-09-2016, 12:02 PM

David Luiz and Jack Wilshere spotted at Gatwick Airport yesterday.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160901/3e9089e71d7ce7b978c2f5fceac21516.jpg

:lol:

Letters

01-09-2016, 12:45 PM

http://newsthump.com/2016/08/31/jack-wilshere-unveiled-to-bournemouth-physiotherapists/

:lol:

Kano

01-09-2016, 12:56 PM

Full list of Chelsea loanees. I don't think we're the club with a youth problem.

Almost 15% of Football League clubs have borrowed a player from Stamford Bridge in this window :lol:

Premier League

Nathan Aké, age 21 (Bournemouth)
Patrick Bamford, 22 (Burnley)
Kenedy, 20 (Watford)
Loïc Rémy, 29 (Crystal Palace)

Championship

Tammy Abraham, 18 (Bristol City)
Christian Atsu, 24 (Newcastle United)
Isaiah Brown, 19 (Rotherham United)
Tomas Kalas, 23 (Fulham)
Kasey Palmer, 19 (Huddersfield Town)
Lucas Piazon, 22 (Fulham, until January)

League One

Jake Clarke-Salter, 18 (Bristol Rovers)
Charlie Colkett, 19 (Bristol Rovers)

League Two

Mitchell Beeney, 20 (Crawley Town, until January)
Jamal Blackman, 22 (Wycombe Wanderers, until January)
Alex Davey, 21 (Crawley Town, until January)
Jordan Houghton, 20 (Doncaster Rovers, until January)
Alex Kiwomya, 20 (Crewe Alexandra, until January)

English non-league

Nathan Baxter, 17 (Metropolitan Police, until January)
Dion Conroy, 20 (Aldershot, until January)

Belgium

Cristián Cuevas, 21 (Sint-Truidense)
Matej Delac, 24 (Royal Excel Mouscron)
Islam Feruz, 20 (Royal Excel Mouscron)

Brazil

Wallace, 22 (Grêmio, Brazil)

Colombia

Jhoao Rodríguez, 20 (Independiente Sante Fe)

Germany

Baba Rahman, 22 (Schalke)
Andreas Christensen, 20 (Borussia Mönchengladbach, second year of two-year loan)
Michael Hector, 24 (Eintracht Frankfurt, Germany)

Italy

Juan Cuadrado, 28 (Juventus, three-year loan)
Mario Pasalic, 21 (Milan)

Netherlands

Lewis Baker, 21 (Vitesse Arnhem)
Matt Miazga, 21 (Vitesse Arnhem)
Nathan, 20 (Vitesse Arnhem)
Danilo Pantic, 19 (Excelsior)
Bertrand Traoré, 20 (Ajax)

Spain

Bekanty Victorien Angban, 19 (Granada)
Jeremie Boga, 19 (Granada)
Charly Musonda, 19 (Real Betis)

Turkey

Kenneth Omeruo, 22 (Alanyaspor)

Munchies

01-09-2016, 01:00 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrRRCntWAAQrc3F.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrRRC40XYAALKxO.jpg

Chelsea - impressive :lol:

McNamara That Ghost...

01-09-2016, 07:32 PM

Kano

01-09-2016, 08:16 PM

:lol:

Scroting no doubt

I am invisible

03-09-2016, 09:24 AM

I know that I am in the minority, but letting Jack go is a risk in my opinion. Is Coq or the Ox better than him? No, I don't think so. Especially as the Ox is so injury prone!

Bournemouth is a good pick for him, IMO - I think he needs to go somewhere and be the big fish for a while, and this will give him the chance to not only be the creative fulcrum for a side, but will also give him plenty of chance to practice the defensive side of his game. Personally speaking, I think he needs to be targeting that slightly deeper Cazorla role (which is the role I always felt Rosicky should have played for us) - for me, it's the best fit for his particular skill set and playing style. Plus you have to be thinking that Santi is going to be 3 months shy of 33 by the start of next season - things could line up nicely for Jack, if manages to prove his fitness and rediscover his sharpness and swagger in the middle.

Two caveats to that though...

1. Jack has to take this loan seriously and work towards what is best for his Arsenal future - if the extent of his thinking is that he can have a good old time by the beach with his best mate Benik, then I would imagine that will be his Arsenal career done.

2. Obviously our intention has to be to loan him out with a view to bringing him back - if we're just putting him in the shop window, then I guess there's really not much point in us worrying about where he goes, or how he does?

Xhaka Can’t

03-09-2016, 10:38 AM

I think we've seen the last of Jack in an Arsenal shirt, regardless of whether or not Wenger is manager next year.

If Wenger puts you out on loan, he is done with you, no matter how well you do - Campbell being a case in point. The only way around that is if the stars are all aligned and you end up being his only option because Wenger failed to manage circumstances that arise each season. For Jack however, given our stockpile of MFs, he is in the wrong position.

Also, a new manager will likely want to wield the axe, particularly with an injury prone liability with discipline issues.

Kano

03-09-2016, 12:36 PM

I don't know, Ramsey was sent away on loan to a couple of places after his injury and I think this is a similar move. Coquelin too (even though he was a last option, Wenger wouldn't have recalled at all if he didn't believe in him). Gibbs went out on loan before becoming first choice for a while and Gnabry would've had a shot this season but I think he wanted to play more games and wouldn't sign the contract Wenger mentioned the other week. Bellerin was out on loan too at Watford but injuries, as usual, meant he came back earlier.

I'd be surprised if Wilshere sees out the season, having made a name for himself on the south coast and doesn't come back. Wenger's invested a lot time and energy into him, allowing squad space for a serial crock. If he finally overcomes that on loan, I reckon he'll be back in the squad next season.

03-09-2016, 12:53 PM

Ramsey was 20 years old though. I think this is very different.

Kano

03-09-2016, 01:45 PM

mastermind84

03-09-2016, 01:54 PM

Only because of the amount of injuries he's had. I get the feeling Wilshere pushed for this and if he hadn't, Wenger would've kept him in the squad. Otherwise he would've probably gone on loan a lot earlier this season if Wenger was looking to let him go. Jack probably realised a few games in that being a sub was the best he's going to get for now. We'll see anyway. Likelihood is he'll pick up yet another injury.
The journos said Wenger pushed for it

Ornstein even said that when Milan came to Arsenal with the loan offer plus a chance to purchase at the end of the season, Wenger was okay with that. It's just that Milan came too late.

I think Wenger is done with Wilshere unless Wilshere ends up being the best player in the premiership at Bournemouth.

Kano

03-09-2016, 01:57 PM

Fair enough. Either way it's his last chance to show if has a future near the top of the game.

Hard to see him making the most of that though.

Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

03-09-2016, 02:31 PM

The journos said Wenger pushed for it

Ornstein even said that when Milan came to Arsenal with the loan offer plus a chance to purchase at the end of the season, Wenger was okay with that. It's just that Milan came too late.

I think Wenger is done with Wilshere unless Wilshere ends up being the best player in the premiership at Bournemouth.

That doesn't mean Wenger initially sought the loan option himself. I think Wenger is open minded about it particularly as his own future is uncertain.

hobson's choice

03-09-2016, 03:46 PM

He truly is the definition of average. And £30 million for a Championship player is about right?

:wacko:

Cut it out, no he's not, he's a good player on a team that's not good enough for the top flight.

He's far from a championship player, he's a bona-fide top flight player

Power n Glory

03-09-2016, 03:47 PM

That doesn't mean Wenger initially sought the loan option himself. I think Wenger is open minded about it particularly as his own future is uncertain.

Yeah, I read reports saying Jack asked to be loaned out after learning he had fallen down the pecking order. It sounds like a mutual decision. Wenger won't block a player from moving if he wants to play football when in that position. But I also think Wenger respects a player that will work hard in training and win his place back by showing discipline and being patient. Even if Jack has a tremendous season with Bournemouth, he won't be given a first team spot unless we have injuries. That pecking order will still be in place when he comes back.

Özim

03-09-2016, 05:29 PM

Wilshere's days are numbered, poor discipline off the field, too many injuries and a lack of decent performances on it have put pay to his chances, credit to Wenger he's spotted it's time to wave goodbye to this overhyped wannabe, that's what he is, cam with all the hype and never delivered.

A year long loan with no option to return and going to a place where there's a notoriously big nightlife and his best mate Afobe doesn't bode well, he seems to like a good night out, not many players go out on loan at 24 and return to become 1st teamers for their club, think he has 1 year left on his contract when he returns as well.

dostoy

03-09-2016, 05:46 PM

He will never play for Arsenal again, not that he played much anyway.

Almost permanently injured, not much good on the very rare times he is fit, poor disciplinary record off the pitch.

He is the one Arsenal player I don't like, in fact I cannot stand the little shit.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

selassie

05-09-2016, 12:41 PM

I'm not sure what the long term plan is for Jack, we've been very patient with him up until now and despite the fact he has been unfortunate with the injuries his off-field antics including sniping about Arsenal not playing him centrally would have done him no favours.

The talent is there but if he can't stay fit and string a good run of games together then he is of no use to us or any team for that matter.

It's up to him to work hard out on loan, put in stellar performances and make himself indispensable to us. I personally think this is his last chance, he's stagnated over the past what 5-6 years due to lack of game time so he needs to keep his body in shape and perform and he needs to do it now.

Marc Overmars

05-09-2016, 01:33 PM

Injures have ruined any chance he's had of realising his potential but I can't say he's a better player now than he was 5 years ago. All the bad habits are still there and I'm not convinced he's ever going to evolve his style of play.

We've all been guilty in the past of overrating him but let's hope he can stay injury free and at least show once and for all what he's capable or not capable of.

Power n Glory

05-09-2016, 01:40 PM

selassie

05-09-2016, 02:01 PM

That's the story of must of the young players unfortunately. It has to boil down to bad management to have so many young players that aren't improving.

Yep, none of our British core have really improved, Ramsey had a spell where he looked nailed on to develop into a World Class Midfielder but he's stagnated too, well at least for us he has even if he did look very good at the Euros with Wales.

It's down to the management, no doubt.

I personally think some of the British core were never quite as good as we originally thought (me included). But I do think the likes of Ramsey, Wilshere and to a lesser degree OX should be a lot further ahead in their development.

Power n Glory

05-09-2016, 02:07 PM

Yes, I think Ox, Ramsey and Wilshere have the core ingredients to be better than what they are.

Penguin

05-09-2016, 03:07 PM

It's really disappointing how little our youth players develop. They all start out promising but something is going wrong. As MO said about Wilshere, they all have the same flaws as they did when they all broke through. Sometimes you just wonder what it is we teach these kids apart from triangle keep-ball. That and turning them into crocks.

I am invisible

05-09-2016, 03:09 PM

The groundwork is clearly being laid for Jack to return as next summer's big LANS. Think about it... £100m spent in one summer... that's us done spending for the next decade! You know I'm right.

Penguin

05-09-2016, 03:21 PM

I can only see one way back for Jack - if he overcomes his injury problems at Bournemouth this season. If not I can't see how he will even have a chance to force his way back into the starting line-up. At his age he needs to be playing regularly in his best position, not a stop/start season with sub appearances on the wing (which may well have happened if he didn't go on loan).

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

05-09-2016, 04:08 PM

Depends, if Wilshere produces at Bournemouth and Cazorla continues to decline than one will be used to replace the other next summer

mastermind84

05-09-2016, 04:40 PM

At his age he needs to be playing regularly in his best position
What's Wilshere's best position?

He isn't a playmaker because he holds it too long. Can't play him deep because he can't sense danger. He doesn't have great vision. Not that good off the ball.

Jack has great technique and control but I don't know how good he actually is as a complete footballer.

Bumble

05-09-2016, 04:45 PM

Depends, if Wilshere produces at Bournemouth and Cazorla continues to decline than one will be used to replace the other next summer

that would probably make the most sense.... Wilshere to move into Cazorla's role assuming he play a large part this season and isn't usurped by Ramsey, Eleneny and Xhaka midfield 3.

Letters

05-09-2016, 07:24 PM

So this is why it all takes so long

http://www.givemesport.com/862919-arsenal-rely-on-a-massive-warehouse-in-cambodia-to-sign-players?autoplay=on&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Organic-Social&utm_campaign=Tribute-Pages-laika-III-1sted

Marc Overmars

05-09-2016, 07:41 PM

Whatever happened to having an eye for a player eh?

All this statistical bollocks.

Kano

05-09-2016, 07:56 PM

Every big club buys into that stat overkill now. As Wenger said in that video interview the other day, it's useful but then you have to decide which pieces of all these stats are going to make a difference. All this 'statification' of the game is sort of a spin off of Billy Bean and the US number overkill.

Power n Glory

05-09-2016, 07:57 PM

Rubbish. We acquired StatDNA in 2012. Wenger has always been indecisive and it's just another tool that makes it harder for him to come to a decision.

Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

05-09-2016, 09:16 PM

As far as I'm concerned, Cazorla can play in the midfield till he's 35 he's that good a technical player.

Arsenal fans have been strangely predicting his Usurping for years now.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 10:38 AM

that would probably make the most sense.... Wilshere to move into Cazorla's role assuming he play a large part this season and isn't usurped by Ramsey, Eleneny and Xhaka midfield 3.

Elneny and Xhaka different types of players, and Ramsey doesn't have the ball control or passing abilities to take on that role or for that matter make it tenable for him to have his services retained by Arsenal.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 10:38 AM

As far as I'm concerned, Cazorla can play in the midfield till he's 35 he's that good a technical player.

Arsenal fans have been strangely predicting his Usurping for years now.

I don't agree, i think if you play in an advance role as he does you have to have the legs for it and his legs are slowly going. It's not like Beckham where he is a dead ball specialist.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 10:54 AM

I don't agree, i think if you play in an advance role as he does you have to have the legs for it and his legs are slowly going. It's not like Beckham where he is a dead ball specialist.

What role? CM? Players can last a long time as CM in that role.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 11:01 AM

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 11:37 AM

depends what you're asking them to do in central midfield, Cazorla can play in the Ozil role or he can play a bit deeper and run from box to box....and i think in both those instances he is too slow now, especially if we are looking to be using pacey attacks rather than passing the ball to death

Box to box? That's not his role or how he plays. CM's like Xavi, Pirlo, Alonso and Scholes lasted a long time in the game and I think Cazorla has similar qualities to those players.

I am invisible

06-09-2016, 11:41 AM

I can see Cazorla carrying on at the highest level for while yet, but all the same he's going to be 32 in December, and he's coming off the back of a season where he's just done his cruciate - it might not be the worst idea in the world to start managing his work load and planning for his successor?

Which brings me back to Jack. When you look at Cazorla's age, and the timing of his loan, then it should all be lining up for nicely for him - he just has to stay fit and show that he can still be the same player who first broke into the side in 2010/11. I don't think this is the end of his Arsenal career by any stretch, but it is on a knife-edge - I'm certain Wenger would have him back in a cold minute if he shows that he's still a valuable asset, but I also think that this loan lets him know that he's a long way from indispensible right now, and that we've run out of time to give him. If he proves himself, then great! If not, well we've got other options...

Kano

06-09-2016, 12:20 PM

It depends on Cazorla too. He's said before he wants to return home to play for Oviedo and retire playing for them if he can, as it's his home region and he spent his youth development years there. So we need to be thinking of a younger replacement at the end of this season without question. As far as I know, Santi's contract runs out at the end of the season and with no noise about another extension, it feels like he'll be off next summer.

Marc Overmars

06-09-2016, 12:20 PM

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 12:27 PM

I don't see why Cazorla can't continue playing this deeper role for a few more years yet. He might be getting on a bit but you never lose that technique, he'll always be cute in tight areas because his footwork is second to none. His days of being a goal threat (apart from penalties) are gone but as long as we keep players around him who are able to cover more ground I think he'll be just fine.

For once I have no issue with Wenger tinkering with the role of a player, I think he has found a way for Cazorla to extend his career at the top level if he wants to stay with us.

But we don't need him, we have Elneny who is younger with fresher legs and it's more of a natural role for him

I think one of the main criticisms of Wenger that i have, is that he isn't ruthless enough with purging players. I like Santi Cazorla, i think more often than not when deployed in the centre of the pitch he puts in a lot of effort and creates a lot of good chances for us, but there is no ignoring that at 31 the role he is best at is more physically demanding that is sustainable for him to perform long term.
And more than that, he's not scoring goals for us any more.....the last goal he scored for us in a competitive fixture that wasn't a penalty kick was December 2014. In addition to not having the top striker we all feel was needed, we aren't getting enough goal contributions from other areas of the pitch and i think Cazorla is just as culpable for that as someone like Ozil (who i feel in the last year or so has scored quite a few times, though could always score more).
Honestly i think unless he stays injury free and contributes more in goal scoring terms, it wouldn't be unfair to let him move on at the end of the season.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 12:31 PM

Box to box? That's not his role or how he plays. CM's like Xavi, Pirlo, Alonso and Scholes lasted a long time in the game and I think Cazorla has similar qualities to those players.

So he didn't two seasons ago when playing alongside coquelin win the ball deep and run with it, i remember something different

Gooner23

06-09-2016, 12:31 PM

Cazorla is still better than Elneny though

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 12:38 PM

Cazorla is still better than Elneny though

Well then if Elneny is not good enough you get rid of him as well.

fakeyank

06-09-2016, 12:54 PM

As far as I'm concerned, Cazorla can play in the midfield till he's 35 he's that good a technical player.

Arsenal fans have been strangely predicting his Usurping for years now.

:gp:

My favorite player at Arsenal :)

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 12:58 PM

So he didn't two seasons ago when playing alongside coquelin win the ball deep and run with it, i remember something different

That doesn't mean he's a box to box player. Coquelin often finds himself high up the pitch supporting attack. Is he box to box? Ozil can also find himself in deep positions. Does that make him a box to box midfielder?

Cazorla's game isn't reliant upon strong endurance and stamina. He's not a box to box midfielder. I'd reserve that description for someone like Pogba or how Ramsey plays.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 01:05 PM

That doesn't mean he's a box to box player. Coquelin often finds himself high up the pitch supporting attack. Is he box to box? Ozil can also find himself in deep positions. Does that make him a box to box midfielder?

Cazorla's game isn't reliant upon strong endurance and stamina. He's not a box to box midfielder. I'd reserve that description for someone like Pogba or how Ramsey plays.

If Cazorla isn't a box to box player than Aaron Ramsey certainly isn't

I count a box to box player as someone who wins the ball deep and runs with it therefore becoming the conduit between defence and attack

This was the role he fufilled along with Coquelin in the second half of the 2014/2015 season. Do i think that he is by trade a box to box midfielder....No absolutely he isn't, but that was the role he was put in next to coquelin the defensive midfielder.

The same way Wenger has employed both a defensive midfielder and a box to box midfielder in front of the defence in the past, with Petit and Vieira and Gilberto and Vieira.

My argument with Cazorla is that his legs are going the same way Artetas legs went to play that deep role, and he isn't scoring goals anymore to make it worth while playing him in an a more advanced role.

Coquelin supporting the attack doesn't make him a box to box player as he very rarely either runs with the ball or is able to find a player quickly with a forward pass

mastermind84

06-09-2016, 01:14 PM

Cazorla don't receive the ball in between the lines. It's a problem against better sides.

3 man midfield would be our best option or at least Ramsey on the right.

If Cazorla isn't a box to box player than Aaron Ramsey certainly isn't
This is ridiculously wrong. Even Ramsey haters would say this is wrong.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 01:16 PM

Cazorla don't receive the ball in between the lines. It's a problem against better sides.

3 man midfield would be our best option or at least Ramsey on the right.

why would you stick ramsey on the right, surely that's just an admission that he doesn't fit into our style of play......he's too slow...get rid of him

Ramsey on the right was clearly a result of wenger shoe horning players into positions rather than just dropping them

Here is who we should be playing if everyone is fit

Cech, Gibbs, Koscielny, Mustafi, Bellerin, Xhaka, Elneny, Ozil, Sanchez, Ox and Perez

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 01:20 PM

If Cazorla isn't a box to box player than Aaron Ramsey certainly isn't

I count a box to box player as someone who wins the ball deep and runs with it therefore becoming the conduit between defence and attack

This was the role he fufilled along with Coquelin in the second half of the 2014/2015 season. Do i think that he is by trade a box to box midfielder....No absolutely he isn't, but that was the role he was put in next to coquelin the defensive midfielder.

The same way Wenger has employed both a defensive midfielder and a box to box midfielder in front of the defence in the past, with Petit and Vieira and Gilberto and Vieira.

My argument with Cazorla is that his legs are going the same way Artetas legs went to play that deep role, and he isn't scoring goals anymore to make it worth while playing him in an a more advanced role.

Coquelin supporting the attack doesn't make him a box to box player as he very rarely either runs with the ball or is able to find a player quickly with a forward pass

You say that about Ramsey because he's playing crap but he's more of a box to box player than Cazorla. Or that's how he tries to play.

Again, it's about stamina and endurance to play box to box and Cazorla's game isn't based on stamina and running. Cazorla could lose a bit of pace and stamina and it won't harm his game because he's not an energy player that's covering all grounds of the pitch. That's not how he beats his opponents.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 01:23 PM

Cazorla don't receive the ball in between the lines. It's a problem against better sides.

3 man midfield would be our best option or at least Ramsey on the right.

This is ridiculously wrong. Even Ramsey haters would say this is wrong.

No it's not, coming from deep necessitates being able to tackle or intercept, think fast with passing or run.....Ramsey cannot do those things

No he's not the worst player in the world, but essentially he's better off playing in a more advanced position for a smaller side where is not having to be instrumental in changing a defence into an attack.

Cazorla can do that at the moment, Xhaka was bought because that's what he is best at, Elneny is not technically as good but is a tough tackler and good running with the ball.....Jack Wilshere when fit is also good at winning the ball too deep and if he can stop himself from over dribbling would also be an effective midfield engine. I don't see that in Ramsey.....he neither has the footballing brain to distribute the ball or the speed on the ball to allow him to play there.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 01:23 PM

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 01:25 PM

You say that about Ramsey because he's playing crap but he's more of a box to box player than Cazorla. Or that's how he tries to play.

Again, it's about stamina and endurance to play box to box and Cazorla's game isn't based on stamina and running. Cazorla could lose a bit of pace and stamina and it won't harm his game because he's not an energy player that's covering all grounds of the pitch. That's not how he beats his opponents.

But that was exactly how he has been utilised.....he spent half a season busting a gut and it probably contributed to him being injured long term

And again i repeat sitting deep like Pirlo in the premier league just doesn't work.....we tried it with Arteta and all we ended up with was a defence being massively exposed because he didn't have the legs.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 01:28 PM

Nonsense. That's like someone saying Gerrard wasn't a box to box player because moments where he was stuck on the right.

This is a totally different argument

Gerard was a box to box player because he could win the ball deep and could still distribute the ball well after his legs started to go on him, i don't think it would have worked a player like that playing for Arsenal because we need someone who still has pace because of the way we commit to attacking.....and it often meant when Liverpool were challenging for the title under Rodgers that they scored a lot of goals but conceded a load as well.

I'm saying Ramsey gets put on the right to keep him in the side, when they are clearly better players than him being played in central midfield.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 01:36 PM

But that was exactly how he has been utilised.....he spent half a season busting a gut and it probably contributed to him being injured long term

And again i repeat sitting deep like Pirlo in the premier league just doesn't work.....we tried it with Arteta and all we ended up with was a defence being massively exposed because he didn't have the legs.

Arteta was a defensive midfielder and a player that wasn't that mobile, agile or quick enough on the turn in tight spaces to avoid being tackled. You're talking about two different positions and players with totally different skill sets.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 01:43 PM

This is a totally different argument

Gerard was a box to box player because he could win the ball deep and could still distribute the ball well after his legs started to go on him, i don't think it would have worked a player like that playing for Arsenal because we need someone who still has pace because of the way we commit to attacking.....and it often meant when Liverpool were challenging for the title under Rodgers that they scored a lot of goals but conceded a load as well.

I'm saying Ramsey gets put on the right to keep him in the side, when they are clearly better players than him being played in central midfield.

Cazorla isn't known for breaking up play from deep and then springing forward to attack.

mastermind84

06-09-2016, 01:48 PM

why would you stick ramsey on the right, surely that's just an admission that he doesn't fit into our style of play......he's too slow...get rid of him

Ramsey on the right was clearly a result of wenger shoe horning players into positions rather than just dropping them

Here is who we should be playing if everyone is fit

Cech, Gibbs, Koscielny, Mustafi, Bellerin, Xhaka, Elneny, Ozil, Sanchez, Ox and Perez
You have never seen Perez play to say he should be starting, so I will dismiss that.

And Oxlade is absolute garbage.

You play Ramsey because he lessens the space Cazorla and Xhaka have to defend because Ramsey can run while those two cannot. He also contributes to our attack much better than Oxlade does. Its not an admission of anything, but more about allowing Ramsey the freedom to be him. You can play him as a middle right, and not as a winger.

No it's not, coming from deep necessitates being able to tackle or intercept, think fast with passing or run.....Ramsey cannot do those things

No he's not the worst player in the world, but essentially he's better off playing in a more advanced position for a smaller side where is not having to be instrumental in changing a defence into an attack.

Cazorla can do that at the moment, Xhaka was bought because that's what he is best at, Elneny is not technically as good but is a tough tackler and good running with the ball.....Jack Wilshere when fit is also good at winning the ball too deep and if he can stop himself from over dribbling would also be an effective midfield engine. I don't see that in Ramsey.....he neither has the footballing brain to distribute the ball or the speed on the ball to allow him to play there.
you do realize Ramsey is involved in way more defensive actions than Cazorla is? 2013/14, he lead the team in tackles and interceptions while proving 16 goals from open play.

Cazorla doesnt move beyond the center circle, and does not collect the ball off the centerbacks. Thats why Xhaka is here now.

And Wilshere isnt good at anything you say he is, lol.

I don't know what football you watch, but Ramsey is a box to box midfielder. Cazorla is absolutely not.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 01:52 PM

fakeyank

06-09-2016, 02:15 PM

you do realize Ramsey is involved in way more defensive actions than Cazorla is? 2013/14, he lead the team in tackles and interceptions while proving 16 goals from open play.

Cazorla doesnt move beyond the center circle, and does not collect the ball off the centerbacks. Thats why Xhaka is here now.

And Wilshere isnt good at anything you say he is, lol.

I don't know what football you watch, but Ramsey is a box to box midfielder. Cazorla is absolutely not.

Ramsey had one good season with us, and he was really good that season. He has been shit bar that season. He is a box to box midfielder.. if running like a headless chicken and charging the opposition box like Don Quixote attacking windmills is a requirement. He has shown absolutely no positional sense and he infuriates more than any other player I have seen in an Arsenal shirt in recent seasons. All the talent in the world, and none of the brains.

We cant get rid of him soon enough. Either that, or we find a manager to put some discipline and brains into him. The later is not happening, so I guess its Ramsey out the door then.

mastermind84

06-09-2016, 02:21 PM

Ramsey had one good season with us, and he was really good that season. He has been shit bar that season. He is a box to box midfielder.. if running like a headless chicken and charging the opposition box like Don Quixote attacking windmills is a requirement. He has shown absolutely no positional sense and he infuriates more than any other player I have seen in an Arsenal shirt in recent seasons. All the talent in the world, and none of the brains.

We cant get rid of him soon enough. Either that, or we find a manager to put some discipline and brains into him. The later is not happening, so I guess its Ramsey out the door then.
ok

I disagree with all of this, but I only jumped in this convo to disagree that Cazorla is more of a box to box midfielder than Ramsey.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 02:33 PM

Cazorla isn't known for breaking up play from deep and then springing forward to attack.

That was exactly what he was being asked to do when he played with Coquelin, and that's what he did

What he's known for is immaterial, Ozil was playing in the more advanced role and therefore Cazorla was playing deeper. Look at the fa cup final in 2015 or the quarter final against United and look at the interceptions Cazorla makes and then look at him bowling forward with the ball, no it's not his natural position but the two positions in front of the defence require a measure of defence because of the amount of space we leave when going forward.

And as for Ramsey needed on the right to protect Cazorla and Xhaka, why?....Elneny and Xhaka can break up the play as much as is required....what we want on the right is someone with pace, someone who can link up with Bellerin in an attacking sense.

No i don't accept Ox is garbage, it's just that Wenger doesn't use him enough to play him into form and prefers his favourites who don't deserve getting in the side like Aaron Ramsey.

I don't get this, the amount of moaning on here about how blunt we are as an attacking force and we want to blunt our attacking potency even more by playing someone who is far too slow and isn't good enough at passing to help us cause defending teams problems.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 02:40 PM

You have never seen Perez play to say he should be starting, so I will dismiss that.

And Oxlade is absolute garbage.

You play Ramsey because he lessens the space Cazorla and Xhaka have to defend because Ramsey can run while those two cannot. He also contributes to our attack much better than Oxlade does. Its not an admission of anything, but more about allowing Ramsey the freedom to be him. You can play him as a middle right, and not as a winger.

you do realize Ramsey is involved in way more defensive actions than Cazorla is? 2013/14, he lead the team in tackles and interceptions while proving 16 goals from open play.

Cazorla doesnt move beyond the center circle, and does not collect the ball off the centerbacks. Thats why Xhaka is here now.

And Wilshere isnt good at anything you say he is, lol.

I don't know what football you watch, but Ramsey is a box to box midfielder. Cazorla is absolutely not.

Ramsey is known as a box to box midfielder but doesn't have the attributes for it, he cannot tackle....he doesn't bust a gut to run back, and his ball distribution is not good enough to start attacks nor is he fast enough to make it tenable.

Cazorla no isn't a natural box to box midfielder but when he was playing with Coquelin that was the role he occupied because he was running back to make interceptions and was running with the ball to instigate attacking movements.

If his legs are going (which they are), i can't understand why there is an argument about him playing deep if you don't want him to be a defensive midfielder because in Xhaka we have a younger player who has an excellent passing range.

The alternative is to play him in the Ozil role, but there's an issue with that....we have Ozil.

Giroud does not fit into our style of play that i think we all agree on, and we have bought a new striker in the summer, it would therefore seem sensible that unless he proves otherwise he is the better option.

Gooner23

06-09-2016, 02:55 PM

Well then if Elneny is not good enough you get rid of him as well.

Well no because I think Elneny makes great back up for either Xhaka or Cazorla.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 02:55 PM

That was exactly what he was being asked to do when he played with Coquelin, and that's what he did

What he's known for is immaterial, Ozil was playing in the more advanced role and therefore Cazorla was playing deeper. Look at the fa cup final in 2015 or the quarter final against United and look at the interceptions Cazorla makes and then look at him bowling forward with the ball, no it's not his natural position but the two positions in front of the defence require a measure of defence because of the amount of space we leave when going forward.

And as for Ramsey needed on the right to protect Cazorla and Xhaka, why?....Elneny and Xhaka can break up the play as much as is required....what we want on the right is someone with pace, someone who can link up with Bellerin in an attacking sense.

I don't get this, the amount of moaning on here about how blunt we are as an attacking force and we want to blunt our attacking potency even more by playing someone who is far too slow and isn't good enough at passing to help us cause defending teams problems.

You're definition of a box to box midfielder is off. That's why this conversation isn't really going anywhere. It seems like you can't distinguish the difference between such players as Modric, Yaya, Ramires, Vidal, Xavi, Ramsey, Cazrola..etc. They all play midfield and all require and element of defence and attack. But some are more technical, others it's more physical.

mastermind84

06-09-2016, 02:56 PM

That was exactly what he was being asked to do when he played with Coquelin, and that's what he did

no he wasnt, lol.

Coquelin won the ball higher up the pitch.

Ramsey is known as a box to box midfielder but doesn't have the attributes for it, he cannot tackle....he doesn't bust a gut to run back, and his ball distribution is not good enough to start attacks nor is he fast enough to make it tenable.
bruh, you cant be serious. Its almost like you don't watch our matches.

When Cazorla can score a goal while doing this in the build up, then you are right. Just find an example of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC7PMFRMYmE

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 03:04 PM

no he wasnt, lol.

Coquelin won the ball higher up the pitch.

bruh, you cant be serious. Its almost like you don't watch our matches.

When Cazorla can score a goal while doing this in the build up, then you are right. Just find an example of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC7PMFRMYmE

You know I'm not a fan of Ramsey but I agree with you on this one. Good example.

The below statement from HCZ is really off. His ball distribution isn't good but everything else is off. The energy Ramsey has is what enhances his game.

Ramsey is known as a box to box midfielder but doesn't have the attributes for it, he cannot tackle....he doesn't bust a gut to run back, and his ball distribution is not good enough to start attacks nor is he fast enough to make it tenable.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 03:06 PM

You know I'm not a fan of Ramsey but I agree with you on this one. Good example.

The below statement from HCZ is really off. His ball distribution isn't good but everything else is off. The energy Ramsey has is what enhances his game.

Energy?....yes he has plenty of energy he makes up more ground in a game than anyone else

But his tackling isn't good, he cannot trap a ball, he isn't quick enough and his range of passing is inferior to those around him.

I don't understand why this debate has carried on so long if i am honest. With Cazorla it comes down to the fact that i think a player whose legs are going, a player whose range of passing is good but we have enough players in the side (namely Xhaka and Ozil) whose passing is just as good and who isn't getting goals....i think there is an argument to be made for phasing him out and obviously because i seem to have come on the board at the same time where the Cazorla fan club is operating this seems to be a terrible inference.

As for Ramsey, no i'm sorry i don't know how anyone can argue it's tenable him being in the side, when he neither has the pace or passing ability in order to mitigate for the clear problem we have.....attacking bluntness. To be an effective attacking side you need a good striker, but you also need to be able to switch defence from attack incredibly quickly....this is what we were able to do when we last won the title.....and now we get into a situation where we are far too slow getting forward when we have the ball giving the opposition time to get back and defend, making it incumbent on Ozil to thread through an impossible pass in the hope that strikers with a poor conversion ratio can make the most of it.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 03:08 PM

You're definition of a box to box midfielder is off. That's why this conversation isn't really going anywhere. It seems like you can't distinguish the difference between such players as Modric, Yaya, Ramires, Vidal, Xavi, Ramsey, Cazrola..etc. They all play midfield and all require and element of defence and attack. But some are more technical, others it's more physical.

a box to box midfielder is someone who primarily can win the ball deep through interceptions or tackles and can then hold onto the ball moving it forward and then release it further up the pitch with an appropriate pass.

Again i don't know where the argument is coming from, this is not Cazorla's natural position i agree...but it's what he did when playing with Coquelin for half of the 14/15 season.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 03:09 PM

Energy?....yes he has plenty of energy he makes up more ground in a game than anyone else

But his tackling isn't good, he cannot trap a ball, he isn't quick enough and his range of passing is inferior to those around him.

You're talking about his current form. He's off and bad but at his best he was our top tackler as well as one of top goal scorers.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 03:15 PM

a box to box midfielder is someone who primarily can win the ball deep through interceptions or tackles and can then hold onto the ball moving it forward and then release it further up the pitch with an appropriate pass.

Again i don't know where the argument is coming from, this is not Cazorla's natural position i agree...but it's what he did when playing with Coquelin for half of the 14/15 season.

So what's the difference between a box to box midfielder, a central midfielder and a defensive midfielder? That's a broad description and there is an element of defence and distribution required from all central players.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 03:19 PM

You're talking about his current form. He's off and bad but at his best he was our top tackler as well as one of top goal scorers.

Ah he was a good goal scorer that i can't argue with, but even at his best he was far too often responsible for losing possession by being ponderous on the ball and then ending up giving away a free kick because he panics and gives away fouls.
This is what happened when he played deeper, he was trying to play the ball out of defence and held on to the ball too long when he hadn't got the pace to outrun the person closing him down and didn't have the presence of mind to find a pass or put the ball out of play.

Putting him on the right is like Ljungberg without pace, Ljungberg was another player who if he wasn't scoring goals you wonder why he had his place in the side....Overmars was another one very similar to that.....but both had pace....Ramsey doesn't, it's a shame as i'm sure he's a hard working guy but i don't see what use he has to us without pace when he is inferior in so many other attributes as well.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 03:22 PM

So what's the difference between a box to box midfielder, a central midfielder and a defensive midfielder? That's a broad description and there is an element of defence and distribution required from all central players.

a defensive midfielder is someone less likely to roam from their position, win the ball deep and distribute it

a box to box midfielder is someone who can win the ball deep as well as further up the park either from passing from defence, or intercepts or tackles and can take the ball forward to assist in attacking movements....can play high up the pitch but will run back to provide defensive cover.

A central midfielder is someone who plays in the middle of the park, is a midfielder that doesn't play on the flanks so is a very general term.

Of course the modern game means that players have to fufill roles that aren't naturally assigned to their position, for instance you will have seen Giroud making interceptions near our own penalty box, but the roles i have described above are the primary roles of the players.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 03:25 PM

Ah he was a good goal scorer that i can't argue with, but even at his best he was far too often responsible for losing possession by being ponderous on the ball and then ending up giving away a free kick because he panics and gives away fouls.
This is what happened when he played deeper, he was trying to play the ball out of defence and held on to the ball too long when he hadn't got the pace to outrun the person closing him down and didn't have the presence of mind to find a pass or put the ball out of play.

Putting him on the right is like Ljungberg without pace, Ljungberg was another player who if he wasn't scoring goals you wonder why he had his place in the side....Overmars was another one very similar to that.....but both had pace....Ramsey doesn't, it's a shame as i'm sure he's a hard working guy but i don't see what use he has to us without pace when he is inferior in so many other attributes as well.

That has zero to do with the type of player he is. We're talking about the style of player.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 03:34 PM

That has zero to do with the type of player he is. We're talking about the style of player.

so you think it doesn't matter if one plays as a box to box midfielder that they are slow on the ball, dwell on it too long and are liable to be disposessed and then give away a free kick?

What i am saying is conventionally you are right Ramsey is more naturally considered to be a box to box midfielder than Cazorla, what i am saying is that because Ramsey isn't good enough to fufill that role effectively for a team that plays like Arsenal that someone who isn't naturally a box to box type like Cazorla is better at the job than him, well he is at the moment....again at the risk of repeating myself (which i seem to be doing a lot) his legs are going.

Now again i ask in the case of Cazorla if his legs are going, there are players in the side who can pass the ball just as well and he isn't scoring goals....is it unreasonable to view Wilshere's time at Bournemouth as a potential to Cazorla being replaced by Wilshere in the first team next season.

And in the case of Ramsey, when he is slow, when his first touch is inferior to his team mates, when his tackling is at best hit and miss, when his passing is inferior to his team mates, when he can score goals but only when in a certain good vein of form......is there any sense in asking him to be the conduit between defence and attack.

The difference between the two is I rate Cazorla, but i generally think more often than not a midfielder of advancing years tends to be less effective unless they are a prominent goal scorer.

And this is the crux of the point i was making, in my view Cazorla should potentially be let go next summer and Ramsey is not good enough in my view to play for Arsenal.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 03:40 PM

so you think it doesn't matter if one plays as a box to box midfielder that they are slow on the ball, dwell on it too long and are liable to be disposessed and then give away a free kick?

What i am saying is conventionally you are right Ramsey is more naturally considered to be a box to box midfielder than Cazorla, what i am saying is that because Ramsey isn't good enough to fufill that role effectively for a team that plays like Arsenal that someone who isn't naturally a box to box type like Cazorla is better at the job than him, well he is at the moment....again at the risk of repeating myself (which i seem to be doing a lot) his legs are going.

Now again i ask in the case of Cazorla if his legs are going, there are players in the side who can pass the ball just as well and he isn't scoring goals....is it unreasonable to view Wilshere's time at Bournemouth as a potential to Cazorla being replaced by Wilshere in the first team next season.

And in the case of Ramsey, when he is slow, when his first touch is inferior to his team mates, when his tackling is at best hit and miss, when his passing is inferior to his team mates, when he can score goals but only when in a certain good vein of form......is there any sense in asking him to be the conduit between defence and attack.

The difference between the two is I rate Cazorla, but i generally think more often than not a midfielder of advancing years tends to be less effective unless they are a prominent goal scorer.

And this is the crux of the point i was making, in my view Cazorla should potentially be let go next summer and Ramsey is not good enough in my view to play for Arsenal.

I didn't say that and can't be bothered to argue the point any further because you're now talking about who is better and preference. That's not the argument.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 03:45 PM

I didn't say that and can't be bothered to argue the point any further because you're now talking about who is better and preference. That's not the argument.

Well that was the argument, that it got changed to what defines a box to box midfielder is illustrative of how things often go off at a tangent on this place.

I originally piped up because i made the comment yesterday that Cazorla could replace Wilshere at the end of the season, and someone else (possibly you i can't remember) said that he could carry on going for a number of years which i vehermently disagree with.

And then someone (who i believe was you) derided that i was arguing that Cazorla was playing a box to box role when playing with Coquelin and said that description was more applicable to Aaron Ramsey, and it all went askew from there.

But i can only tell you what my original point was, my point was that Cazorla should be looked at someone to be getting rid of next summer and i am not comfortable having Ramsey anywhere near the first team.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 03:53 PM

Well that was the argument, that it got changed to what defines a box to box midfielder is illustrative of how things often go off at a tangent on this place.

I originally piped up because i made the comment yesterday that Cazorla could replace Wilshere at the end of the season, and someone else (possibly you i can't remember) said that he could carry on going for a number of years which i vehermently disagree with.

And then someone (who i believe was you) derided that i was arguing that Cazorla was playing a box to box role when playing with Coquelin and said that description was more applicable to Aaron Ramsey, and it all went askew from there.

But i can only tell you what my original point was, my point was that Cazorla should be looked at someone to be getting rid of next summer and i am not comfortable having Ramsey anywhere near the first team.

Blink said Cazorla can go on for years and you disagreed with him. You were the one that defined Cazorla as box to box player and needing the legs to play it. :lol:

depends what you're asking them to do in central midfield, Cazorla can play in the Ozil role or he can play a bit deeper and run from box to box....and i think in both those instances he is too slow now, especially if we are looking to be using pacey attacks rather than passing the ball to death

I didn't mention anything about him being box to box prior to that.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 04:04 PM

Blink said Cazorla can go on for years and you disagreed with him. You were the one that defined Cazorla as box to box player and needing the legs to play it. :lol:

I didn't mention anything about him being box to box prior to that.

I did say i wasn't sure, and i was right....i was arguing that Cazorla had been playing a box to box role and you were scathing of that.

I'm honestly not trying to be offensive, but I answer the responses to me, i don't tend to delineate between one individual and another. I recognise you from previous full blooded discussions by your name, but very few people on here come across as distinctive individuals.

But regardless of where he is playing on the pitch.....my argument still is, if his legs are going, if other players in the side are just at good at ball distribution as him and he isn't scoring goals....then there is no harm in thinking of replacing him.

Keeping him on in a Pirlo role i believe would not be complimentary or efficacious and seems to be an unnecessary luxury borne out of a fondness for the player. I can appreciate the fondness for Cazorla, i like the player.....but i don't think players like him do well for long post 30....certainly not playing game in game out.

Penguin

06-09-2016, 04:04 PM

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 04:11 PM

A box to box midfielder is a CM who defends outside our box when we dont have the ball, and quickly gets in and around the opponents box to attack when we get the ball back. That's what Ramsey clearly does, regardless of how good he is at it.

Cazorla mostly sits in front of our back four and sprays passes around. He's a deep-lying playmaker. I do have concerns about him defensively though, unlike someone like Alonso who is fairly strong and has a tackle in him. He should be fine playing next to a Coquelin/Xhaka/Elneny.

Exactly. Which is why I understand why Blink feels Cazorla can play for us for years because he's not a box to box player, it's not how he plays for us and he's not a workhorse type that needs stamina and endurance to have an impact on the game.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 04:18 PM

I did say i wasn't sure, and i was right....i was arguing that Cazorla had been playing a box to box role and you were scathing of that.

I'm honestly not trying to be offensive, but I answer the responses to me, i don't tend to delineate between one individual and another. I recognise you from previous full blooded discussions by your name, but very few people on here come across as distinctive individuals.

But regardless of where he is playing on the pitch.....my argument still is, if his legs are going, if other players in the side are just at good at ball distribution as him and he isn't scoring goals....then there is no harm in thinking of replacing him.

Keeping him on in a Pirlo role i believe would not be complimentary or efficacious and seems to be an unnecessary luxury borne out of a fondness for the player. I can appreciate the fondness for Cazorla, i like the player.....but i don't think players like him do well for long post 30....certainly not playing game in game out.

Cazorla is not playing a box to box. You don't have to recognise posters by name. That's not an issue. Just at least remember what you've said. :lol: It would also help if you know we who is doing what on the pitch. The stuff about Ramsey not being box to box is well off. Not sure how you interpret Cazorla playing that role but see something different for Ramsey.

Globalgunner

06-09-2016, 04:37 PM

The team in my opinion will play better as long as Ramsey is kept out of the starting line up. Not that he is not a good player. He can be in the right set up as we have seen with Wales. The problem is he needs to play in the 10 role, where Ozil is who is much more effective in that role. He should be rotated in as when needed as the midfield should consist of any 2 of the trio of Xhaka, El Neny and Coq along with Cazorla who is the deep playmaker and links up with the front 3. Ramsey should watch Cazorla and long term he or Jack should vie for that role behind the front 3. Ramsey is awful on the right. Again it is a case of horses for courses. Cazorla can easily be dominated on the field. I recall a game against the Spuds last year where the Tottenham players had clearly identified Cazorla as a weak link and constantly ganged up and took possession off him. Wenger had to substitute him as he was so obviously being targeted. Ramsey is made of sterner stuff but is far less capable on the ball.

My fear for Ramsey just as with Jack is that they are far less a player than they should have been after all these years with us. Both peaked as players probably 4 years ago.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 04:38 PM

Cazorla is not playing a box to box. You don't have to recognise posters by name. That's not an issue. Just at least remember what you've said. :lol: It would also help if you know we who is doing what on the pitch. The stuff about Ramsey not being box to box is well off. Not sure how you interpret Cazorla playing that role but see something different for Ramsey.

You've asked me to explain how I define Box to Box and how I think Cazorla has played that role when playing in front of the back four with Coquelin, and you've asked me to explain why I don't see Ramsey in that role.

What has resulted from this is you don't agree with what I've said, that's your perogative. If your saying I'm not sure how you can interpret that is odd, because I've made the same point countless times.

mastermind84

06-09-2016, 04:43 PM

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 04:46 PM

You've asked me to explain how I define Box to Box and how I think Cazorla has played that role when playing in front of the back four with Coquelin, and you've asked me to explain why I don't see Ramsey in that role.

What has resulted from this is you don't agree with what I've said, that's your perogative. If your saying I'm not sure how you can interpret that is odd, because I've made the same point countless times.

I think you've got box to box and how the ball transitions from defence to attack mixed up.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 04:59 PM

I think you've got box to box and how the ball transitions from defence to attack mixed up.

Ah i see it wasn't sufficient for you not to agree with me, you have to try and imply ignorance and stupidity on my part...very well

The term box-to-box midfielder refers to central midfielders who have good abilities and are skilled at both defending and attacking.[5] These players can therefore track back to their own box to make tackles and block shots and also run to the opponents' box to try to score. A good box-to-box midfielder needs good passing, vision, control, stamina, tackling and marking in defence, and shooting and dribbling in attack.

That is a description of a box to box midfielder i have copied and pasted from wikipedia.

And that is the role i have consistently stated Cazorla played whilst being partnered with Francis Coquelin, he did bust a gut tracking back to win possession, make interceptions etc and he did run forward with the ball in order to instigate attacks. Is that his natural position?....No but to be fair i've not tried to argue that, i think it's another instance of being slightly shoe horned....and to be fair i did make the point that was one of a few roles he has assumed whilst playing central midfield rather than his primary role.

And looking at the attributes of a good Box to Box midfielder....and where i think Ramsey falls down....good passing, vision, control, tackling.....I would add that i think speed is essential as well in order for you to track back especially when you play for a team like Arsenal and we commit a lot of men forward.

I think he is reasonaby ok at dribbling and i also agreed with you that he has fairly good stamina.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 05:16 PM

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 05:27 PM

Endurance and stamina are key attributes to play box to box. It's what defines that sort of player because all central midfield players need to be able to pass and track back to tackle. What defines Cazorla is his passing and he's more likely to set the counter attack off with pass and highly unlikely to be the guy that arrives late in the box to pop a shot off and score.

I'd also argue the term box to box refers more so to the style and type of player and not a function in the team. The reason why Cesc Fabregas isn't a box to box player is because he hasn't got the stamina and endurance to get up and down the pitch and to be equally as effective on defence as he is on attack. Also, the physical presence of a player is what defines them as a box to box player. Santi just isn't that.

But that's your definition, i think it's a role that a player plays within a team....as the thing i copy and paste states it's whether someone has all the attributes listed as to whether they are good at the role or not, i think pace, tackling and passing ability are key skills to a good box to box midfielder and i think Ramsey lacks those attributes

If you are saying Cazorla lacks the overall physicality to make a top box to box midfielder then i would probably agree with you, but i contend he was played in the role and he showed good acceleration to run back to win tackles and was good enough on the ball as well as at passing for me, to make me feel confident in him playing that role than Aaron Ramsey.

I think a true Box to Box midfielder would be someone like Patrick Vieira who had both the physical and technical attributes, he was an important cog in winning the ball deep and using his physical power to run with the ball and had a good ability to pick out players with a pass.

Globalgunner

06-09-2016, 05:51 PM

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 05:54 PM

Its the eternal question I guess. He definitely isnt a right winger which is where Wenger generally shoehorns him in, So where does he fit. Somewhere in midfield except hes not a DM.

or maybe just maybe we could accept he's not good enough for Arsenal

But that would be heresy because he played well for one season, and played well in the Euros

Globalgunner

06-09-2016, 06:07 PM

or maybe just maybe we could accept he's not good enough for Arsenal

But that would be heresy because he played well for one season, and played well in the Euros

My bad. That was in response to Mastermind over where to play Ramsey. But yes. He needs to be out of the team. There is no place for him except as understudy to Cazorla

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 06:16 PM

My bad. That was in response to Mastermind over where to play Ramsey. But yes. He needs to be out of the team. There is no place for him except as understudy to Cazorla

Ah i wouldn't play Cazorla either, well not week in, week out.....and i would rotate where he plays as well so sometimes he is an understudy for Ozil as well as playing deeper

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 06:20 PM

But that's your definition, i think it's a role that a player plays within a team....as the thing i copy and paste states it's whether someone has all the attributes listed as to whether they are good at the role or not, i think pace, tackling and passing ability are key skills to a good box to box midfielder and i think Ramsey lacks those attributes

If you are saying Cazorla lacks the overall physicality to make a top box to box midfielder then i would probably agree with you, but i contend he was played in the role and he showed good acceleration to run back to win tackles and was good enough on the ball as well as at passing for me, to make me feel confident in him playing that role than Aaron Ramsey.

I think a true Box to Box midfielder would be someone like Patrick Vieira who had both the physical and technical attributes, he was an important cog in winning the ball deep and using his physical power to run with the ball and had a good ability to pick out players with a pass.

Tackling and passing are key attributes to all the central midfield positions.Tracking back is a requirement for all midfield positions. Don't let the laziness we've seen from previous players like Denilson fool you. It's like saying a striker must score to be a striker. That's obvious. But for someone to be a 'clinical' striker or a 'fox in the box' that speaks more of the type of player they are. Same applies midfielders that are described as box to box types.

Besides defending, a box to box player should have the energy to burst forward and get into shooting/goal scoring positions. That's not Cazorla. Energy levels and endurance are key to the position hence the term box to box. Someone constantly jogging and working the midfield at both ends of the pitch. Not just short sprints to get back or forward. Anyone can do that. That doesn't make them box to box neither does a tackle or passing ability.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 06:34 PM

Tackling and passing are key attributes to all the central midfield positions.Tracking back is a requirement for all midfield positions. Don't let the laziness we've seen from previous players like Denilson fool you. It's like saying a striker must score to be a striker. That's obvious. But for someone to be a 'clinical' striker or a 'fox in the box' that speaks more of the type of player they are. Same applies midfielders that are described as box to box types.

Besides defending, a box to box player should have the energy to burst forward and get into shooting/goal scoring positions. That's not Cazorla. Energy levels and endurance are key to the position hence the term box to box. Someone constantly jogging and working the midfield at both ends of the pitch. Not just short sprints to get back or forward. Anyone can do that. That doesn't make them box to box neither does a tackle or passing ability.

Again things like "don't be fooled" as if somehow because you don't agree with me i am somehow stupid

I can only refer you to the definition of a box to box midfielder i have copied and pasted......tackling and passing ability are not of themselves what make a box to box midfielder no, but they are attributes that make for an effective one. What i am saying is that Cazorla wasn't making short sprints he was often running back from to defensive positions from more advanced positions to win back possession and then he was running with the ball to instigate them. Is that his primary function as a footballer in the sense that these things are his greatest attributes?...No but i haven't argued that. I have argued that he was played in that role when he partnered Coquelin and i have more faith in his ability to do that than Aaron Ramsey who i constantly see trundling back towards goal to win posession, holding onto the ball too long when it's been passed to him from the defence....being a burden to a flowing attacking move because his range of passing and or speed has let him down.

Does he have stamina?...yes but in of itself that's not enough without other attributes which for me he lacks. You go on about energy, he has energy in that he covers a lot of ground, but when it's at such a pace that it breaks down a flowing attacking move of what benefit is that energy. I think Cazorla has a better burst of pace than Ramsey.

I really can't see where any of this is getting us, i think it boils down to the fact that you cannot accept that i think a player playing in a position which isn't his natural position is better at it in my view than a player for whom that position is far more of a natural position.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 06:54 PM

Again things like "don't be fooled" as if somehow because you don't agree with me i am somehow stupid

I can only refer you to the definition of a box to box midfielder i have copied and pasted......tackling and passing ability are not of themselves what make a box to box midfielder no, but they are attributes that make for an effective one. What i am saying is that Cazorla wasn't making short sprints he was often running back from to defensive positions from more advanced positions to win back possession and then he was running with the ball to instigate them. Is that his primary function as a footballer in the sense that these things are his greatest attributes?...No but i haven't argued that. I have argued that he was played in that role when he partnered Coquelin and i have more faith in his ability to do that than Aaron Ramsey who i constantly see trundling back towards goal to win posession, holding onto the ball too long when it's been passed to him from the defence....being a burden to a flowing attacking move because his range of passing and or speed has let him down.

Does he have stamina?...yes but in of itself that's not enough without other attributes which for me he lacks. You go on about energy, he has energy in that he covers a lot of ground, but when it's at such a pace that it breaks down a flowing attacking move of what benefit is that energy. I think Cazorla has a better burst of pace than Ramsey.

I really can't see where any of this is getting us, i think it boils down to the fact that you cannot accept that i think a player playing in a position which isn't his natural position is better at it in my view than a player for whom that position is his natural position.

It's an expression, man. Don't be so paranoid.

Also, you think I'm defending Ramsey? :lol: I think he's pants. Mastermind and I have had many debates on that. But we both agree on the type of player he is. Again, this is not about quality of performance. Ramsey would be described by most people as a box to box midfielder.

Kano

06-09-2016, 06:55 PM

https://youtu.be/hzYWzNTB8m0

fakeyank

06-09-2016, 07:02 PM

HCZ and PnG at it again :lol:

Get a room guys.. its high time! <_<

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 07:09 PM

HCZ and PnG at it again :lol:

Get a room guys.. its high time! <_<

What's with all the gay fantasy shit? :lol: It's a debate and I tend to argue my point like this with everyone.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 07:11 PM

It's an expression, man. Don't be so paranoid.

Also, you think I'm defending Ramsey? :lol: I think he's pants. Mastermind and I have had many debates on that. But we both agree on the type of player he is. Again, this is not about quality of performance. Ramsey would be described by most people as a box to box midfielder.

And my point is that i think Cazorla is better at playing that role than he is, and i think the term box to box midfielder is more indicative of where a player is slotted in a formation and style of play. I never argued to begin with that Cazorla was a box to box midfielder, for the past however many hours i have said i don't know how many times that in my view he was slotted into that role to play alongside Coquelin.
And i can't argue whether or not Ramsey is designated as a box to box midfielder, but he lacks so many of the attributes that would make him any good at the role that it seems an almost pointless label.....i have seen him play in a defensive role, i have seen him play in an advance role and sometimes i have seen him meander around the pitch and never the twain shall meet.

Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

06-09-2016, 07:15 PM

HCZ and PnG at it again :lol:

Get a room guys.. its high time! <_<

I really think it's high time you stop trying to deflect the clear frustration that you have that your homoerotic desires are seen as a moral aberration in your country.

This is the 21st century, if you like the D that's none of my business.....maybe become an activist for Gay Rights?

mastermind84

06-09-2016, 07:17 PM

Its the eternal question I guess. He definitely isnt a right winger which is where Wenger generally shoehorns him in, So where does he fit. Somewhere in midfield except hes not a DM.

The problem with footy fans is that we don't think critical. Everything has to be fixed when in reality nothing is fixed on a pitch.

Why would you have Ransey playing as a winger? You don't. You have Ramsey has a midfield right in order to help the right channel and support Bellerin. It's not different from what Pogba played for Juventus.

It seems like a shoehorn because Arsenal have no system and that's on Wenger.

Globalgunner

06-09-2016, 07:25 PM

The problem with footy fans is that we don't think critical. Everything has to be fixed when in reality nothing is fixed on a pitch.

Why would you have Ransey playing as a winger? You don't. You have Ramsey has a midfield right in order to help the right channel and support Bellerin. It's not different from what Pogba played for Juventus.

It seems like a shoehorn because Arsenal have no system and that's on Wenger.

Agreed but a player like Campbell offers so much more in the same position. While I agree that players movements can be fluid but positional discipline is key especially when you lose possession. Ramsey should not be on the right wing. I dare say even a poor player like Walnutt is better than him there. Ramsey may have a good engine, but it is a diesel engine, he can run all day but not very fast. If he stays on the wing he will get burned by the opposition winger on the counter and not beat him going the other way.

Power n Glory

06-09-2016, 07:27 PM

And my point is that i think Cazorla is better at playing that role than he is, and i think the term box to box midfielder is more indicative of where a player is slotted in a formation and style of play. I never argued to begin with that Cazorla was a box to box midfielder, for the past however many hours i have said i don't know how many times that in my view he was slotted into that role to play alongside Coquelin.
And i can't argue whether or not Ramsey is designated as a box to box midfielder, but he lacks so many of the attributes that would make him any good at the role that it seems an almost pointless label.....i have seen him play in a defensive role, i have seen him play in an advance role and sometimes i have seen him meander around the pitch and never the twain shall meet.

Cazorla is a much better player than Ramsey and better as CM. I've said for ages he should be starting games there over Ramsey. Same goes for when we had Rosicky. Similar sort of player to Cazorla but not described as a box to box player. I can't stress enough how this is not argument about the quality of a player.

When we played against Leicester, we played Xhaka and Coquelin as the midfield pair. Did any of them slot into the 'box to box' role? It's worth reading Wenger's comments on how he describes our different midfielders and their skill set.