Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations.

[Power n Glory]

Agreed but a player like Campbell offers so much more in the same position. While I agree that players movements can be fluid but positional discipline is key especially when you lose possession. Ramsey should not be on the right wing. I dare say even a poor player like Walnutt is better than him there. Ramsey may have a good engine, but it is a diesel engine, he can run all day but not very fast. If he stays on the wing he will get burned by the opposition winger on the counter and not beat him going the other way.

I think we've had our clue from Wenger on why he played Ramsey on the flank so often. He'll comeback to defend. Wenger has already said he doesn't rate Walcott's defending in that position...(but still plays him there)...I'm guessing he doesn't trust Ox that much either but I really don't know why Campbell can't play there.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Cazorla is a much better player than Ramsey and better as CM. I've said for ages he should be starting games there over Ramsey. Same goes for when we had Rosicky. Similar sort of player to Cazorla but not described as a box to box player. I can't stress enough how this is not argument about the quality of a player.

When we played against Leicester, we played Xhaka and Coquelin as the midfield pair. Did any of them slot into the 'box to box' role? It's worth reading Wenger's comments on how he describes our different midfielders and their skill set.

I don't think you realise you are doing it , "I can't stress enough that this isn't an argument over the quality of a player" I can assure you I'm really not as slow on the uptake as you take me as being :)

All I'm saying is that in my view the role undertaken by Cazorla when playing with Coquelin met the conditions of what I see as a typical box to box function, he ran back from high up the pitch to intercept and win posession, he took the ball forward with bursts of pace and assist the attacks....in fact the only thing he didn't do was shoot on goal as much as he might have done playing in an advanced role.

Now you mention as a counter example that Wenger picked at Leicester Granit Xhaka and Francis Coquelin, I think that was personally a bizarre choice as it does seem that Wenger does favour midfielders playing in front of the defence to play a DM/BBM role which is why when Cazorla and Coquelin were both injured he favoured Flamini and Ramsey back there.

I am not just saying that Cazorla is a better player than Ramsey, I'm saying he can perform the box to box role better than Ramsey. I feel happy saying that even though as I've said its not his natural position and I would agree that it's somewhat a waste of his other talents.

[mastermind84]

Agreed but a player like Campbell offers so much more in the same position. While I agree that players movements can be fluid but positional discipline is key especially when you lose possession. Ramsey should not be on the right wing. I dare say even a poor player like Walnutt is better than him there. Ramsey may have a good engine, but it is a diesel engine, he can run all day but not very fast. If he stays on the wing he will get burned by the opposition winger on the counter and not beat him going the other way.

Campbell dont offer much of anything. He is one paced, one footed, and while he does try to defend he isnt really strong there either. He is also a wack dribbler.

Theo could potentially work out wide, and has been really good through the first 3 matches.

THe big problem with Arsenal is Wenger's lack of a system, but Ramsey is a box to box mid.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Campbell dont offer much of anything. He is one paced, one footed, and while he does try to defend he isnt really strong there either. He is also a wack dribbler.

Theo could potentially work out wide, and has been really good through the first 3 matches.

THe big problem with Arsenal is Wenger's lack of a system, but Ramsey is a box to box mid.

Campbell was liked because of his work rate, which has often been seeing lacking in Theo.....to be fair i think by his standards he has been fairly industrious this season

Again i don't deny Ramsey is a box to box player, my contention is that he is so bad at it (to the point where someone who isn't that in Cazorla excels at it far better) is that it seems an almost fatuous label.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think you realise you are doing it , "I can't stress enough that this isn't an argument over the quality of a player" I can assure you I'm really not as slow on the uptake as you take me as being :)

All I'm saying is that in my view the role undertaken by Cazorla when playing with Coquelin met the conditions of what I see as a typical box to box function, he ran back from high up the pitch to intercept and win posession, he took the ball forward with bursts of pace and assist the attacks....in fact the only thing he didn't do was shoot on goal as much as he might have done playing in an advanced role.

Now you mention as a counter example that Wenger picked at Leicester Granit Xhaka and Francis Coquelin, I think that was personally a bizarre choice as it does seem that Wenger does favour midfielders playing in front of the defence to play a DM/BBM role which is why when Cazorla and Coquelin were both injured he favoured Flamini and Ramsey back there.

I am not just saying that Cazorla is a better player than Ramsey, I'm saying he can perform the box to box role better than Ramsey. I feel happy saying that even though as I've said its not his natural position and I would agree that it's somewhat a waste of his other talents.

Google it. :lol: See what results pop up. Tim Stillman writes well on this sort of topic.

[Niall_Quinn]

WTF is going on here? A few days away and suddenly Cazorla is a box-to-box midfielder who needs to retire and Theo supposedly played well in 3 games.

Come on guys! Knock it off.

Theo has been absolute garbage in all 3 games. He's a fuckwit of a player that offers nothing of value because he has zero consistency in anything he tries to do. So for every triumph (few and far between) there's at least a catastrophe (usually many more). A proper football team with ambition can't possibly carry a player like that, waiting for the odd non-spastic contribution.

Cazorla, meanwhile, remains our best player. Perhaps he's not the most talented in the team, or the fittest or the youngest or the fastest, but he's our best player. He's the only one that can make that obnoxious Wenger BoreBall work - not sure of that's an insult or a compliment. He's good enough on the ball to hold it and distribute it quickly when he's advanced and ahead of the holding player, usually Coquelin, now Xhaka (who is a big improvement on Coq). He's smart enough not to play the Arsenal Way in front of the opposition back four, which means he doesn't run smack into them and lose the ball. Wenger relies almost entirely on Cazorla's ability to allow his shitty system to produce anything other than sideways tippety tap. Unfortunately we have the lamppost Bif and the braindead Theo as target men, so a lot of Santi's work goes to waste (much like Ozil's). But Wenger insists on playing shit and that shit would be a much bigger burden to carry without Cazorla dragging us out of the talent gutter. Will be interesting to see if the new guy is any good up top because if he is we could get a 3 for 1 effect with Santi and Ozil being the main beneficiaries.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

But that was exactly how he has been utilised.....he spent half a season busting a gut and it probably contributed to him being injured long term

And again i repeat sitting deep like Pirlo in the premier league just doesn't work.....we tried it with Arteta and all we ended up with was a defence being massively exposed because he didn't have the legs.
Santi has never been used as the prime holding / defensive midfielder. Arteta explicitly was.

I did say i wasn't sure, and i was right....i was arguing that Cazorla had been playing a box to box role and you were scathing of that.

I'm honestly not trying to be offensive, but I answer the responses to me, i don't tend to delineate between one individual and another. I recognise you from previous full blooded discussions by your name, but very few people on here come across as distinctive individuals.

But regardless of where he is playing on the pitch.....my argument still is, if his legs are going, if other players in the side are just at good at ball distribution as him and he isn't scoring goals....then there is no harm in thinking of replacing him.

Keeping him on in a Pirlo role i believe would not be complimentary or efficacious and seems to be an unnecessary luxury borne out of a fondness for the player. I can appreciate the fondness for Cazorla, i like the player.....but i don't think players like him do well for long post 30....certainly not playing game in game out.

You know how to flatter a girl Sherbert. Though I know what you mean about discerning one view from another, even if I think my views are more nuanced than most and not just because I don't say Wenker or Wheelchair.

Anyway my day job keeps me busy so I don't post as much as I'd like though I am quite sure I am earning a lot less than you or NQ in this horrible unfair world as you both have ample time to post! :d

I am not actually against seeing Cazorla usurped by a better and more beneficial player to the team but his omitting is periodically spoken about like an inevitability. Only it hasn't been an inevitability yet.....much like us falling out the top 4. I realise its just what we expect the Spanish to do....leave one day, thanks to the ghost of cesc past and Santi saying himself he'd like to go back one day.....so I get it.

Clearly Santi cannot go on forever. I think in spite of your unhealthy obsession with the Spanish imp's 'legs', your eyes should tell you that we tend to play better when he is playing and that he still performs as well as any in midfield. Much like NQ will eventually come round to the idea that although he cannot stand Theo....we are just plainly more likely to actually win games with him in the side. Is Santi going to score 15-20 league goals from midfield? No but the last person to do that was Ramsey....and you've already made your feelings on him clear. So by including him we aren't relinquishing anything like that kind of goal threat from another source. I think that part of Santa's magic (see what I did :d ) is intangible and the technical control we retain in midfield can't be as clearly or directly quantified and attributed to him but nevertheless is critical and I think you are tending to underestimate that quality. It isn't simply keeping possession either, it is the ability to keep the ball AND keep it in an area of the field where we can be on the brink of an attack. His utter two footedness is a large part in helping him achieve it and means that defenders who continually look to show opponents on to their 'weaker' side are nullified in the process and resort to simply trying to rob him of the ball.....which does not work either because he will just run rings around you and he doesn't need a 50 yard circle to do it.

I am glad I've at least encouraged a footballing debate though rather than the constant exchanges of the club's financial misdemeanour's or talk of the organisational structure and management!

[fakeyank]

I really think it's high time you stop trying to deflect the clear frustration that you have that your homoerotic desires are seen as a moral aberration in your country.

This is the 21st century, if you like the D that's none of my business.....maybe become an activist for Gay Rights?

You really have your panties in a bunch, dont you? :unsure:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You really have your panties in a bunch, dont you? :unsure:

Again an attempt to deflect, look man we get it....you want to be able to acknowledge the love you and your boy toy share, but presumably both because of the caste system and the fact that its illegal you can't.

Have your family tried to pressure you into marrying a girl?.....is that it?. Because if it is, it's not her fault so whilst on honeymoon in South Africa don't have her bumped off and attempt to make it look like a robbery....that poor girl can't help it that you were made the way you are

[Niall_Quinn]

Much like NQ will eventually come round to the idea that although he cannot stand Theo....we are just plainly more likely to actually win games with him in the side.

I view Theo as a poster boy for pretty much everything that is fundamentally wrong with Arsenal and indeed English football in general.

Overhyped, overpaid, in reality second rate, and scandalously seemingly good enough for Arsenal. You can't say people are picking on him, it has been 10 years and the boy's done fuck all. Failed to improve at club level, failed to make the breakthrough at international level (even in an almost talentless England team). There's not much to commend our Theo.

On this basis, even if it were true that we stand more chance of winning with him in the side (and that's a shallow argument that misaligns cause and effect), Theo is a constant reminder to every Arsenal fan that second best will do at this place. And isn't that at the very heart of the club's problems? The lack of that killer ambition that drives teams to the top? So Theo has pace and therefore provides a randomness that doesn't exist in our more stable and static tip, tap set up? Big deal. We shouldn't be playing that shitty system in the first place, we should be setting up to maximise the attributes of the genuine quality we have at the club. If we did that, Theo wouldn't, couldn't get a sniff. And rightly so.

As with every season for the last decade, I'm on standby and eager for him to prove me wrong. I think a lot of fans are in the same boat.

[Power n Glory]

I've noticed Theo has stepped up his defensive contribution after Wenger's public comments.

4/6 tackles vs Liverpool. 3/3 vs Leicester. 1/1 vs Watford along with 6 ball recoveries and 2 interceptions.

I wonder if Wenger has spoken to Theo about his defending and all round game before. Saw the below quote from Xhaka and it may explain why so many of our young players aren't developing and seem to do what the heck they like on the pitch.


Xhaka, pronounced Jakka, said: “He (Wenger) is not a coach who speaks daily. Wenger talked to me two of three times. He told me he was very impressed with how I train, how I behave in my character and I was disciplined.

“He has an incredible way, an insane charisma. You look at him and you know ‘wow, this man has achieved and experienced so much’. The respect for him is enormous.”

[I am invisible]

I view Theo as a poster boy for pretty much everything that is fundamentally wrong with Arsenal and indeed English football in general.

Overhyped, overpaid, in reality second rate, and scandalously seemingly good enough for Arsenal. You can't say people are picking on him, it has been 10 years and the boy's done fuck all. Failed to improve at club level, failed to make the breakthrough at international level (even in an almost talentless England team). There's not much to commend our Theo.

On this basis, even if it were true that we stand more chance of winning with him in the side (and that's a shallow argument that misaligns cause and effect), Theo is a constant reminder to every Arsenal fan that second best will do at this place. And isn't that at the very heart of the club's problems? The lack of that killer ambition that drives teams to the top? So Theo has pace and therefore provides a randomness that doesn't exist in our more stable and static tip, tap set up? Big deal. We shouldn't be playing that shitty system in the first place, we should be setting up to maximise the attributes of the genuine quality we have at the club. If we did that, Theo wouldn't, couldn't get a sniff. And rightly so.

As with every season for the last decade, I'm on standby and eager for him to prove me wrong. I think a lot of fans are in the same boat.

I'm convinced that a large part of the problem is the way the club want to be seen as a family - we've been pushing that angle for as long as I can remember, and whilst it's all well and good for regular, day-to-day members of staff, I think it sends out all the wrong messages to the players. With a family, you know that they will always welcome you back into the fold, and give you chance after chance, no matter how often or how badly you mess up or disappoint, and so we see with way too many of our players - there's always another chance for them, and the club will always shield them from criticism and consequences. The atmosphere I'd like to see us cultivate would be more like that of a group of soldiers: you still get the comradery with your team mates, and the affinity for your unit / club, but it comes with a massive dose of added accountability - you know that your team mates will always have your back... but you also make damn sure that you don't put them in that situation in the first place [where the need to bail you out]. And if you become a constant liability, then you get drummed out of the core (so to speak), for your own good as much as everyone else's. Ruthless, but it has to be, if you want that winning mentality.

[Niall_Quinn]

I've noticed Theo has stepped up his defensive contribution after Wenger's public comments.

4/6 tackles vs Liverpool. 3/3 vs Leicester. 1/1 vs Watford along with 6 ball recoveries and 2 interceptions.

I wonder if Wenger has spoken to Theo about his defending and all round game before. Saw the below quote from Xhaka and it may explain why so many of our young players aren't developing and seem to do what the heck they like on the pitch.

What does that quote really say? Wenger does fuck all and is living on his longevity and reputation. Butters the players up, doesn't come down on them nearly hard enough when there are problems. As Invisible says above, it's too cosy, too relaxed, there are too many liberties granted and being taken. These guys are being paid a fortune to strive with every ounce of their talent and their character to achieve. Year after year they fail. Even when the player in question is genuinely world class, he ultimately fails. What an incredible joke that Ozil couldn't break the club assist record last season. He was virtually there with half the season gone and then it all dried up - by no coincidence in line with the turgid and negative football we deployed for the second half of the season. Wenger would of course make a whole bunch of excuses about injuries. But this is where the likes of Walcott come into the picture, they need to be able to step up and keep it all on track when we lose first team players. Well he doesn't do that and he's not the only one who's guilty. We don't have a squad, we have a decent team in most respects (with a couple of glaring weaknesses) and then a squad that doesn't have the quality to fill the holes as they appear. We didn't have anyone to replace Santi last season and so the season fell apart. We didn't have anyone to step up for Giroud when his form fell off a cliff. Wenger is so negligent in this respect. Surely by now he knows those players he stays loyal to will absolutely not deliver when the call comes? He must know this by now, yet he persists. So maybe Theo is now starting to do some of the bare minimum that is expected of him anyway. So maybe Wenger has finally intervened and had a word. So what? None of it is even close to being good enough and it's all way, way too late. That's if Wenger has even said anything. If we go by Xhaka's report, maybe the only thing Wenger has said to Theo, 10 years into this failed project, is, "Ooooh, I like your hair like that!"

[Marc Overmars]

Walcott is only still involved because he's on such a huge contract. I bet Wenger regrets giving him that deal 4 years ago and can't wait to move him on.

We're simply lumbered with him at the moment.

[Power n Glory]

Walcott is only still involved because he's on such a huge contract. I bet Wenger regrets giving him that deal 4 years ago and can't wait to move him on.

We're simply lumbered with him at the moment.


Wouldn't he have kept him on the bench if that were the case? I think Theo is still a part of Wenger's plans. Seeing how things went with Wilshere and Campbell, Wenger could have made it quite clear that he'd play a small role for us this season and then Theo could have decided on a transfer or loan.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wouldn't he have kept him on the bench if that were the case? I think Theo is still a part of Wenger's plans. Seeing how things went with Wilshere and Campbell, Wenger could have made it quite clear that he'd play a small role for us this season and then Theo could have decided on a transfer or loan.

Might have been hard to loan Walcott, as often we ask the club loaning one of our players to pick up a proportion of that player's wages....it was almost a deal breaker when Bendtner was farmed out to Sunderland.

But i think yes it's more likely that Wenger is looking to persevere with Walcott (although it can't help either him or the player that he seems to change his mind constantly as to his best position). I think what goes against Walcott is his lack of industry, there is very little argument to be made that in anyway Joel Campbell is a better player but fans love him because of his sheer work rate and desire.

But again as you have pointed out and was very noticeable against Leicester was that he seems to be upping his work rate, but it won't mitigate for the obvious problem with Walcott....over thinking....if he has any time to make a decision he will often fluff it because he panics, where as when he has to do something instinctively and doesn't give himself time to think he tends to perform a great deal better.

He is the epitome like N_Q says of Arsenal players as is a confidence player, just like Arsenal is a confidence team....when confidence is high we can beat anyone but a set back and we go through periods of weeks where we don't look like we can beat anyone.

[Kano]

Walcott is only still involved because he's on such a huge contract. I bet Wenger regrets giving him that deal 4 years ago and can't wait to move him on.

We're simply lumbered with him at the moment.

I don't know. With the money in the PL, there are a lot of teams that could absorb his wages. West Ham spraying money around, Everton, Liverpool and even Leicester are spunking it like there's no tomorrow. If Palace can put down £30m for Benteke plus wages, they could take a Feo. I think Wenger still wants him here. A loan could be arranged if needs be, even on a part-paid wage basis if we wanted shot of him that badly.

[Marc Overmars]

Wouldn't he have kept him on the bench if that were the case? I think Theo is still a part of Wenger's plans. Seeing how things went with Wilshere and Campbell, Wenger could have made it quite clear that he'd play a small role for us this season and then Theo could have decided on a transfer or loan.

I don't know but I feel we've been here before with Walcott. Wenger will play him for a bit but tends to revert back to the players he trusts more. We'll see what happens now Giroud is back and of course Perez.

[Power n Glory]

Might have been hard to loan Walcott, as often we ask the club loaning one of our players to pick up a proportion of that player's wages....it was almost a deal breaker when Bendtner was farmed out to Sunderland.

But i think yes it's more likely that Wenger is looking to persevere with Walcott (although it can't help either him or the player that he seems to change his mind constantly as to his best position). I think what goes against Walcott is his lack of industry, there is very little argument to be made that in anyway Joel Campbell is a better player but fans love him because of his sheer work rate and desire.

But again as you have pointed out and was very noticeable against Leicester was that he seems to be upping his work rate, but it won't mitigate for the obvious problem with Walcott....over thinking....if he has any time to make a decision he will often fluff it because he panics, where as when he has to do something instinctively and doesn't give himself time to think he tends to perform a great deal better.

He is the epitome like N_Q says of Arsenal players as is a confidence player, just like Arsenal is a confidence team....when confidence is high we can beat anyone but a set back and we go through periods of weeks where we don't look like we can beat anyone.

Kano makes a good point on other teams splashing money around. Wilshere managed a loan deal to Bournemouth and he's on £90k-£100k.

[Power n Glory]

I don't know but I feel we've been here before with Walcott. Wenger will play him for a bit but tends to revert back to the players he trusts more. We'll see what happens now Giroud is back and of course Perez.

Even if Walcott isn't first choice, he'd have to struggle to make the bench for Wenger to ditch him. We'd need players to step up in order for that to happen. Ox and Iwobi in particular.

[Marc Overmars]

In other news, Flamini is off to Palace and Bendtner has signed for Notts Forest. :lol:

Makes the squad we have now look pretty awesome when you consider some of the chumps we've relied on in the past.

[Kano]

Agent Flamini securing us 6 points.

We're effectively top of the league now.

Wenger :bow:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Kano makes a good point on other teams splashing money around. Wilshere managed a loan deal to Bournemouth and he's on £90k-£100k.

Though I do think Walcott has been retained to be persevered with by Wenger (in my view one of his most infuriating qualities that players get too many chances). Isn't Walcott on something silly like 140k?

But again hypothetical as I don't think Wenger ever considered letting Walcott go out on loan, which is probably prudent as we don't exactly have loads of depth in terms of wide players.

I am led to believe that there was a plan to bring in Mikhytarian contingent on getting rid of Walcott (and I'm not just saying that because that's what I said we should do months ago) but even if not on loan his contract would make it very difficult to get rid of him permenantly

My understanding is that he also wanted to get rid of Gibbs, bring in Rodriguez from Wolfsburg and make Monreal the second choice left back.

Monreal is for me another player we should be looking to get rid of, his lack of pace is a liability at times and allows far more crosses into the box than Bellerin does.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Agent Flamini securing us 6 points.

We're effectively top of the league now.

Wenger :bow:

I love Flamini, he actually enjoys inflicting pain on people

Can you imagine how disappointed he got if he went though an entire game without picking up a single yellow card....distraught I imagine.

You can imagine him as being a violent rapist in a Gaspar Noe film

[Kano]

Palace will soon realise this move is Irreversible.

[fakeyank]

Again an attempt to deflect, look man we get it....you want to be able to acknowledge the love you and your boy toy share, but presumably both because of the caste system and the fact that its illegal you can't.

Have your family tried to pressure you into marrying a girl?.....is that it?. Because if it is, it's not her fault so whilst on honeymoon in South Africa don't have her bumped off and attempt to make it look like a robbery....that poor girl can't help it that you were made the way you are

:wacko:

:console:

Yup, they got me 'arranged married' to a white girl. First time that ever happened in a brown man's life! :lol:

And we were in South Africa for our honeymoon.. how did you know, you creep? :ninja:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:wacko:

:console:

Yup, they got me 'arranged married' to a white girl. First time that ever happened in a brown man's life! :lol:

And we were in South Africa for our honeymoon.. how did you know, you creep? :ninja:


Just a guess, historically it seems to be a top destination spot for Indian Homos to take their new brides :lol:

[I am invisible]

What's Wilshere's best position?

He isn't a playmaker because he holds it too long. Can't play him deep because he can't sense danger. He doesn't have great vision. Not that good off the ball.

Jack has great technique and control but I don't know how good he actually is as a complete footballer.

Positionally speaking, I'd put him where Cazorla is (although I'd obviously expect him to put his own stamp on the role): a slightly deeper role, where he can see the game in front of him, and has licence to drive forward when it's on. As you say, he has a natural tendency to hold on to the ball, and when you combine that with a more advanced role, where he's receiveing the ball with his back to opponents, then you've pretty much got a perfect recipe for being hit hard by big, burly defenders and defensive midfielders (which could partly explain why he's been picking up so many injuries in recent years?). Move him further back though, and he'll be receiving the ball with opponents in front of him, and he'll be directly up against lighter weight attacking midfielders instead - might not be a cureall for all his woes, but I think it would drastically cut down on the impact injuries.

In terms of what he'd bring to the role, I think he shares a lot of the same attributes as Rosicky (who I also thought would be a perfect fit for that deeper, central role) - a spiky character, who's at his best when he's in the thick of it, turning over opposition atatcks, and then suddenly accelerating our play. I think that kind of player would make a great counterfoil to the calmer influence of a holding midlfielder like Xhaka: one slows the play down when we need to, and the other speeds it up; one can hit it direct and long, and the other can jink his way through shorter, tighter spaces; one is more of a careful orchestrator, and the other more reactive.

I keep thinking back to that 2010/11 seaspn when he really broke into the first team - that's the Wilshere that I want to see, if / when he returns. He played that same, deeper role in the same formation that season (playing 49 games, for what it's worth), and I thought he was carrying our midfield by the end (i.e. after Fabregas and Nasri had mentally fucked off to their new clubs, and Song had decided that he wwould rather be a forward). But he was a humbler, younger man back then though, and he kept his game a lot simpler - I think a lot will depend on whether he can regain that humility and focus on this loan...

[fakeyank]

Just a guess, historically it seems to be a top destination spot for Indian Homos to take their new brides :lol:

Do you happen to know where people whose panties are in a bunch go to? You need to look that place up. I'll start a GoFundMe page for you to get there because I am sure you probably dont have a job (probably an Indian has taken it)! Is that the reason for being so butthurt all the time? :lol:

[Gooner23]

Positionally speaking, I'd put him where Cazorla is (although I'd obviously expect him to put his own stamp on the role): a slightly deeper role, where he can see the game in front of him, and has licence to drive forward when it's on. As you say, he has a natural tendency to hold on to the ball, and when you combine that with a more advanced role, where he's receiveing the ball with his back to opponents, then you've pretty much got a perfect recipe for being hit hard by big, burly defenders and defensive midfielders (which could partly explain why he's been picking up so many injuries in recent years?). Move him further back though, and he'll be receiving the ball with opponents in front of him, and he'll be directly up against lighter weight attacking midfielders instead - might not be a cureall for all his woes, but I think it would drastically cut down on the impact injuries.

In terms of what he'd bring to the role, I think he shares a lot of the same attributes as Rosicky (who I also thought would be a perfect fit for that deeper, central role) - a spiky character, who's at his best when he's in the thick of it, turning over opposition atatcks, and then suddenly accelerating our play. I think that kind of player would make a great counterfoil to the calmer influence of a holding midlfielder like Xhaka: one slows the play down when we need to, and the other speeds it up; one can hit it direct and long, and the other can jink his way through shorter, tighter spaces; one is more of a careful orchestrator, and the other more reactive.

I keep thinking back to that 2010/11 seaspn when he really broke into the first team - that's the Wilshere that I want to see, if / when he returns. He played that same, deeper role in the same formation that season (playing 49 games, for what it's worth), and I thought he was carrying our midfield by the end (i.e. after Fabregas and Nasri had mentally fucked off to their new clubs, and Song had decided that he wwould rather be a forward). But he was a humbler, younger man back then though, and he kept his game a lot simpler - I think a lot will depend on whether he can regain that humility and focus on this loan...

That's his best position as I see it as well. I haven't given up hope of him coming back and establishing himself, but he has it all to do this season.

[Power n Glory]

Positionally speaking, I'd put him where Cazorla is (although I'd obviously expect him to put his own stamp on the role): a slightly deeper role, where he can see the game in front of him, and has licence to drive forward when it's on. As you say, he has a natural tendency to hold on to the ball, and when you combine that with a more advanced role, where he's receiveing the ball with his back to opponents, then you've pretty much got a perfect recipe for being hit hard by big, burly defenders and defensive midfielders (which could partly explain why he's been picking up so many injuries in recent years?). Move him further back though, and he'll be receiving the ball with opponents in front of him, and he'll be directly up against lighter weight attacking midfielders instead - might not be a cureall for all his woes, but I think it would drastically cut down on the impact injuries.

In terms of what he'd bring to the role, I think he shares a lot of the same attributes as Rosicky (who I also thought would be a perfect fit for that deeper, central role) - a spiky character, who's at his best when he's in the thick of it, turning over opposition atatcks, and then suddenly accelerating our play. I think that kind of player would make a great counterfoil to the calmer influence of a holding midlfielder like Xhaka: one slows the play down when we need to, and the other speeds it up; one can hit it direct and long, and the other can jink his way through shorter, tighter spaces; one is more of a careful orchestrator, and the other more reactive.

I keep thinking back to that 2010/11 seaspn when he really broke into the first team - that's the Wilshere that I want to see, if / when he returns. He played that same, deeper role in the same formation that season (playing 49 games, for what it's worth), and I thought he was carrying our midfield by the end (i.e. after Fabregas and Nasri had mentally fucked off to their new clubs, and Song had decided that he wwould rather be a forward). But he was a humbler, younger man back then though, and he kept his game a lot simpler - I think a lot will depend on whether he can regain that humility and focus on this loan...

I'm not sure what happened to Wilshere. All he needs to do is release the ball quicker. Someone should send him a tape of Rosicky and Cazorla. I really rated Rosicky in that role as well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you happen to know where people whose panties are in a bunch go to? You need to look that place up. I'll start a GoFundMe page for you to get there because I am sure you probably dont have a job (probably an Indian has taken it)! Is that the reason for being so butthurt all the time? :lol:

Listen if i want to amuse myself by using tired stereotypes about homosexuals in Indian society because a guy who happens to be Indian suggests i get a room with someone who as far as i'm aware is the same gender as myself because apparently every long last debate/argument i have with that individual comes down to repressed sexual tension than i will.

And Butt hurt?......jesus do you actually have sodomy on the brain?

Don't dish it out if you can't take it chief :wave:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Rosicky is about as unique a player as I remember seeing in my lifetime.......never really seen a player quite like him with that ability to receive the ball with his back to goal, turn and ghost at pace past people.

Diaby had a bit of it but by taking far more touches and using a bit more power in the execution.

I'll really miss him.

[Power n Glory]

Rosicky is about as unique a player as I remember seeing in my lifetime.......never really seen a player quite like him with that ability to receive the ball with his back to goal, turn and ghost at pace past people.

Diaby had a bit of it but by taking far more touches and using a bit more power in the execution.

I'll really miss him.

It was a thing of beauty. Rosicky had it all mapped out before he even recieved the ball. We really should have had him and Cesc playing in the middle together instead of wasting time on Denilson..

Diaby is another one that could have been great for us in that role if he could have stayed fit.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Didn't mean it to sound like an obituary but yeah I loved that guy!

Wishere I also see in that deeper role similar to when he partnered Song but perhaps that's because that's one time he consistently played well for a long period and perhaps it is short sighted?

Desperately hope he gets over the injuries.

[fakeyank]

Listen if i want to amuse myself by using tired stereotypes about homosexuals in Indian society because a guy who happens to be Indian suggests i get a room with someone who as far as i'm aware is the same gender as myself because apparently every long last debate/argument i have with that individual comes down to repressed sexual tension than i will.

And Butt hurt?......jesus do you actually have sodomy on the brain?

Don't dish it out if you can't take it chief :wave:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcjIestFVOc

Bye Felicia.

[Power n Glory]

Didn't mean it to sound like an obituary but yeah I loved that guy!

Wishere I also see in that deeper role similar to when he partnered Song but perhaps that's because that's one time he consistently played well for a long period and perhaps it is short sighted?

Desperately hope he gets over the injuries.

Yeah, he was a special player. A joy to watch.

I hope Jack gets over his injuries. He just hasn't been the same. I remember in his very early days, a friendly against Real Madrid and he was being played as a winger, nobody could get close to him. The low centre of gravity; he'd glide and dance through challenges. Thought he was born to be a winger when I saw him play even though I knew he was playing as CM for the youth squad. The injuries have slowed him down. It's been so long since we seen him play but I remember he was starting to get power into his shots on his last few cameos. It's a shame he pushed for a loan because it's bad timing. Check out Stillman's latest on Arseblog.. I think he has a point. Jack could have found a way into the team if he were willing to ride it out.

[Power n Glory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcjIestFVOc

Bye Felicia.

:lol: Yes, this has gone too far..

[Marc Overmars]

Didn't mean it to sound like an obituary but yeah I loved that guy!

Wishere I also see in that deeper role similar to when he partnered Song but perhaps that's because that's one time he consistently played well for a long period and perhaps it is short sighted?

Desperately hope he gets over the injuries.

What's even more impressive is that the never seemed to lose a step despite the injuries. He retained all that spark as he got older, he played as though he was 10 years younger. Says a lot that Reus considers him as his favourite ever player.

Shame his body gave up on him because he could have been a huge legend for us. Rotten luck.

[mastermind84]

Positionally speaking, I'd put him where Cazorla is (although I'd obviously expect him to put his own stamp on the role): a slightly deeper role, where he can see the game in front of him, and has licence to drive forward when it's on. As you say, he has a natural tendency to hold on to the ball, and when you combine that with a more advanced role, where he's receiveing the ball with his back to opponents, then you've pretty much got a perfect recipe for being hit hard by big, burly defenders and defensive midfielders (which could partly explain why he's been picking up so many injuries in recent years?). Move him further back though, and he'll be receiving the ball with opponents in front of him, and he'll be directly up against lighter weight attacking midfielders instead - might not be a cureall for all his woes, but I think it would drastically cut down on the impact injuries.

In terms of what he'd bring to the role, I think he shares a lot of the same attributes as Rosicky (who I also thought would be a perfect fit for that deeper, central role) - a spiky character, who's at his best when he's in the thick of it, turning over opposition atatcks, and then suddenly accelerating our play. I think that kind of player would make a great counterfoil to the calmer influence of a holding midlfielder like Xhaka: one slows the play down when we need to, and the other speeds it up; one can hit it direct and long, and the other can jink his way through shorter, tighter spaces; one is more of a careful orchestrator, and the other more reactive.

I keep thinking back to that 2010/11 seaspn when he really broke into the first team - that's the Wilshere that I want to see, if / when he returns. He played that same, deeper role in the same formation that season (playing 49 games, for what it's worth), and I thought he was carrying our midfield by the end (i.e. after Fabregas and Nasri had mentally fucked off to their new clubs, and Song had decided that he wwould rather be a forward). But he was a humbler, younger man back then though, and he kept his game a lot simpler - I think a lot will depend on whether he can regain that humility and focus on this loan...
I would like to see it but he don't defend and isn't that intelligent a footballer. Santi isn't a good defender either but he is waaaay better at defending half spaces than Jack is.

Song did a lot of work for the team that season so let's not discount is performance. He was really strong defensively.



The demise of Diaby was so heartbreaking. He was basically an earlier version of Pogba in almost every way except Diaby had cleaner technique and Pogba could stay healthy. Diaby should be carrying the midfield now.

Rosicky was also greatness.

[selassie]

I would like to see it but he don't defend and isn't that intelligent a footballer. Santi isn't a good defender either but he is waaaay better at defending half spaces than Jack is.

Song did a lot of work for the team that season so let's not discount is performance. He was really strong defensively.



The demise of Diaby was so heartbreaking. He was basically an earlier version of Pogba in almost every way except Diaby had cleaner technique and Pogba could stay healthy. Diaby should be carrying the midfield now.

Rosicky was also greatness.

I think it's more a case of Jack being given too much freedom and not fully understanding what is required of the role, so yeah I agree he definitely lacks the intelligence compared to Santi. After Jack's breakthrough season where he played in a more deeper role with discipline he came back and basically more or less had a free role in Midfield, he was given far too much freedom/license and Jack doesn't excel in a role like that IMO.

The more experienced players like Santi, Ozil, Sanchez benefit from Wenger's "hands off/learn it yourself type approach" because they are established players who understand the game, the likes of Jack doesn't and the fact he's been in and out of the team due to injury doesn't help.

Wenger really needs to get hold of the likes of Ramsey, Jack etc and guide them in a more hands on way IMO.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol: Yes, this has gone too far..

I was enjoying it, especially when he was accusing me of being racist and that my racism was "informed" by being unemployed and blaming others for taking our jobs.

I was making insinuations about his sexuality, he was making insinuations about my employment status (i'm writing this whilst in the office at work :lol:) and it was fun.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/sg/news/wenger-eyes-arsenal-future-world-class-wilshere


"Personally it's where I prefer him," he said. "I think Jack Wilshere is a world class player, has a great football brain and understands everything that's going on on a football pitch.

"He's most dangerous when you give him the ball in the final third. For me, it was always a shame that he played too deep. I like him closer to the goal because he can create."

Wenger sees Jack's future as a number 10 and playing in the final third. He also confirmed that it was Jack that wanted to be loaned out and they came to a decision.

Jack really should have stuck around if Wenger wants him to play a more advanced role. It only takes one injury to Ozil. But it may also explain why Jack plays how he plays. Always pushing forwards to try and get into the final third. Lacking patience to let the game build. If Wenger he is more dangerous in the final third, could he be encouraging Jack to get forward as much as possible? I have the same theory about Theo and Ramsey. Trying to play to their strengths but it leads to an unbalanced player when developing. It's a trick that will work for older players but not youth.

[Power n Glory]

I was enjoying it, especially when he was accusing me of being racist and that my racism was "informed" by being unemployed and blaming others for taking our jobs.

I was making insinuations about his sexuality, he was making insinuations about my employment status (i'm writing this whilst in the office at work :lol:) and it was fun.


Sure you're not back at school? :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Hmm what i will say about Ramsey, is that i actually think although not anywhere near as good as Ozil....i think he could probably play that more advanced role quite competently.....when he was playing at his best three seasons ago i think he managed to link up well with Olivier Giroud. Now he wasn't playing the more advanced role then as that was taken by Ozil, but it suggested at least that he can do it and actually at the risk of praising him again i think he's reasonably ok at winning possession high up the pitch by pressing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sure you're not back at school? :lol:

Don't.....I honestly have dreams where I'm back at school and invariably involves being unprepared for a lesson or exam.

That's just not like me at all

[Power n Glory]

I think it's more a case of Jack being given too much freedom and not fully understanding what is required of the role, so yeah I agree he definitely lacks the intelligence compared to Santi. After Jack's breakthrough season where he played in a more deeper role with discipline he came back and basically more or less had a free role in Midfield, he was given far too much freedom/license and Jack doesn't excel in a role like that IMO.

The more experienced players like Santi, Ozil, Sanchez benefit from Wenger's "hands off/learn it yourself type approach" because they are established players who understand the game, the likes of Jack doesn't and the fact he's been in and out of the team due to injury doesn't help.

Wenger really needs to get hold of the likes of Ramsey, Jack etc and guide them in a more hands on way IMO.

I agree with you. It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the role but no idea if that's Jack's fault or Wenger's instructions. Wenger says Jack is intelligent and seems to understand what's happening all over the pitch.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger says Jack is intelligent and seems to understand

That suggests they don't talk that much, and that Wenger doesn't follow Wilshere on Twitter

[Power n Glory]

Hmm what i will say about Ramsey, is that i actually think although not anywhere near as good as Ozil....i think he could probably play that more advanced role quite competently.....when he was playing at his best three seasons ago i think he managed to link up well with Olivier Giroud. Now he wasn't playing the more advanced role then as that was taken by Ozil, but it suggested at least that he can do it and actually at the risk of praising him again i think he's reasonably ok at winning possession high up the pitch by pressing.

Remember this goal?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmQfhkGPrM8

I think Wilshere and Giroud have a good partnership as well. Better in fact. Wilshere's touch, passing and dribbling is more consistent. Ramsey can be a be clumsy at times. But I doubt we'll be playing with Giroud up front this season and Ramsey is injured anyway. I think Wilshere made a mistake with the loan move. Wenger has said it wasn't a case of where he had to prove his quality, but his discipline and commitment will probably be called into question.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Oh I totally agree, I was more suggesting we aren't totally screwed if Ozil gets injured but no question I'd rather have Wilshere playing there than Ramsey.

[Power n Glory]

Oh I totally agree, I was more suggesting we aren't totally screwed if Ozil gets injured but no question I'd rather have Wilshere playing there than Ramsey.

Yeah, I really don't know how Ramsey will play with a quicker striker up front either.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yeah, I really don't know how Ramsey will play with a quicker striker up front either.

well let's hope that Ozil stays fit and it's not a question that has to be answered

[selassie]

That suggests they don't talk that much, and that Wenger doesn't follow Wilshere on Twitter

:lol:

[selassie]

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/sg/news/wenger-eyes-arsenal-future-world-class-wilshere



Wenger sees Jack's future as a number 10 and playing in the final third. He also confirmed that it was Jack that wanted to be loaned out and they came to a decision.

Jack really should have stuck around if Wenger wants him to play a more advanced role. It only takes one injury to Ozil. But it may also explain why Jack plays how he plays. Always pushing forwards to try and get into the final third. Lacking patience to let the game build. If Wenger he is more dangerous in the final third, could he be encouraging Jack to get forward as much as possible? I have the same theory about Theo and Ramsey. Trying to play to their strengths but it leads to an unbalanced player when developing. It's a trick that will work for older players but not youth.

Yep, Wenger does confuse me, I honestly don't see how he can ever guarantee Jack a future here getting regular games if he is essentially saying that he's number two to Ozil in the AM role. I accept that Ozil can't play every game and agree that competition is healthy but being number 2 to Ozil in our team is pretty much as bad as it's going to get, if Ozil is fit then he's first name on the team sheet.

I also don't understand Wenger's development methods for our younger players, why on earth has Jack pretty much been shunted all over the place, none of it makes any sense to me.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's okay. Wenger doesn't understand his methods either. I wouldn't pay any attention to what he says. He has a habit of talking shit all the time.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I was enjoying it, especially when he was accusing me of being racist and that my racism was "informed" by being unemployed and blaming others for taking our jobs.

I was making insinuations about his sexuality, he was making insinuations about my employment status (i'm writing this whilst in the office at work :lol:) and it was fun.

Fear not....we know you're gainfully employed and paid by our taxes so you can sit in your office eating doughnuts calling out gays from over the Atlantic.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Fear not....we know you're gainfully employed and paid by our taxes so you can sit in your office eating doughnuts calling out gays from over the Atlantic.

I would say that's a lie but in honesty it was someone's birthday the other week and they brought in Krispy Kreme :lol:

Over the Atlantic? You need to brush up on your geography squire, India is not over the Atlantic

[Kano]

FY lives in America.

[I am invisible]

I'm not sure what happened to Wilshere. All he needs to do is release the ball quicker. Someone should send him a tape of Rosicky and Cazorla. I really rated Rosicky in that role as well.

Probably just the obvious... injured all the time... never fully match fit or sharp when he does play... no set role from one game to the next when he does come back into the side... trying too hard to impress / make up for lost time, instead of just keeping it neat and simple...?

I'm sure he said he was modelling his game on Rosicky's a couple of months back? I just hope it's the Rosicky who played CM for the Czechs, and not the Rosicky who played any old place for Arsenal, usually off the bench...

[Letters]

Give it a rest, HCZ :rolleyes:

[I am invisible]

I would like to see it but he don't defend and isn't that intelligent a footballer. Santi isn't a good defender either but he is waaaay better at defending half spaces than Jack is.

Song did a lot of work for the team that season so let's not discount is performance. He was really strong defensively.

The demise of Diaby was so heartbreaking. He was basically an earlier version of Pogba in almost every way except Diaby had cleaner technique and Pogba could stay healthy. Diaby should be carrying the midfield now.

Rosicky was also greatness.

Again, I think a lot of that is probably down to where he's been played? When we put him further forward he's far, far more likely to be the one getting tackled, and if he does end up doing any defending then it will most likely be chasing after an opponent has just won it from us
\]\
]\]

]\\\\\
\]\
]
\

(Sorry - baby invisible was just helping daddy type.)

; play him deeper and that situation is reversed - when he has to defend, then his opponent will be making the first move




|

(Seriously, don't test me child! Daddy hasn't had nearly enough coffee to deal with this yet!)

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure where how I'd rate his footballing intelligence? I don't think he's a player who thinks two or three moves ahead - he's far more instinctive than that - but when he's on form and really in the mood I think his natural 'feel' for the game is as good as I've seen, and he has this knack of making the right choices, really quickly, without even thinking about it. Perhaps that's what I've felt has been missing from him lately - that natural feel for the ebb and flow of the game?

(I'm gonna have to cut this short - this is driving me nuts...)

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I would say that's a lie but in honesty it was someone's birthday the other week and they brought in Krispy Kreme :lol:

Over the Atlantic? You need to brush up on your geography squire, India is not over the Atlantic

Rather embarrassingly, that is less often than I eat doughnuts at work.

[Niall_Quinn]

Over the Atlantic? You need to brush up on your geography squire, India is not over the Atlantic

It depends which direction you fly.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I considered going there....

[Munchies]

http://www.afcamden.com/single-post/2016/09/14/Summertime-Madness

Apparently the 'madness' this Summer was Reus :lol:

[milla]

It depends which direction you fly.

True :haha:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Should we be seriously considering Dembele at Celtic.....

[McNamara That Ghost...]

No.

[Marc Overmars]

Should we be seriously considering Dembele at Celtic.....

I reckon he will probably play for a top club in the future, I think he was quite highly rated before Celtic signed him. The SPL is turd but you do get the odd decent player up there. Van Dijk for example is a beast who I think could play for any club in the league. Southampton got a bargain there.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ha this thread hasn't been updated for a while - gays, doughnuts and air miles

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I reckon he will probably play for a top club in the future, I think he was quite highly rated before Celtic signed him. The SPL is turd but you do get the odd decent player up there. Van Dijk for example is a beast who I think could play for any club in the league. Southampton got a bargain there.

That's where my thinking stemmed from. Haven't even seen him play but I heard a few amount of hype before he went up to Scotland. I was surprised he ended up at Celtic but lots of clubs can't be dealing with the patience required for young players, particularly at CF. It will be interesting to see how well he continues to do.

[Kano]

Koeman saying today that Lukaku should leave to fulfill his ambitions, that Everton will never be enough. Strange thing to do to your best chance of scoring a goal.

[selassie]

Should we be seriously considering Dembele at Celtic.....

That ship has sailed now, he'll go for big money when he leaves Celtic. He has loads of elite teams interested in him now, City, Bayern, Chelsea, Man U etc

[Penguin]

Koeman saying today that Lukaku should leave to fulfill his ambitions, that Everton will never be enough. Strange thing to do to your best chance of scoring a goal.

Oh dear... that wont endear him to either the Everton fans or the club. Koeman knows he won't stay manager there for long (who does these days?) so he's trying to draw the best out of Lukaku for one more season. That suits Koeman better too as he's clearly using Everton as a stepping stone himself.

Probably would have been a better idea to do it behind closed doors than to blurt it out to the media though. :doh: